Blind Sense sounds fine. Being blind beyond this ability actaully isn't very powerful, so I wouldn't cost him anything. Perhaps you could toy around with the idea of doing something similar to the Clouded Vision Oracle curse.
EDIT:
I just remembered there is an Item called Swordmaster's Blindfold that fits in neatly with this concept. Maybe you could give him the ability that the item grants, except without the locate weakness.
I agree with Iantzkev: Drop the fighter first level bonus feat and give him blind-fight and the oracle curse (clouded vision) class ability.
Yeah, Blind-Fight doesn't really do much in this case. Just the Curse in place of a feat or two.
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I'd counter the fact he can't see would prevent him from being super op in a general sense.
IE let him for a feat take blindsense. (we're talking about blind sense not sight btw until much later)
So he's stuck investing in two feats, blind fighting and this pseudo curse... but now he hits anything 80% of the time (assuming he rolls to hit to begin with)
He keeps his dex and gives his opponents 20% concealment at all times basically... at lvl 15 he'll actually get blindsight...
Blindsense (Ex) Using nonvisual senses, such as acute smell or hearing, a creature with blindsense notices things it cannot see. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to pinpoint the location of a creature within range of its blindsense ability, provided that it has line of effect to that creature. Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment against the creature with blindsense, and the creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment. Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense. A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
Format: blindsense 60 ft.; Location: Senses.
Blindsight (Ex) This ability is similar to blindsense, but is far more discerning. Using nonvisual senses, such as sensitivity to vibrations, keen smell, acute hearing, or echolocation, a creature with blindsight maneuvers and fights as well as a sighted creature. Invisibility, darkness, and most kinds of concealment are irrelevant, though the creature must have line of effect to a creature or object to discern that creature or object. The ability's range is specified in the creature's descriptive text. The creature usually does not need to make Perception checks to notice creatures within this range. Unless noted otherwise, blindsight is continuous, and the creature need do nothing to use it. Some forms of blindsight, however, must be triggered as a free action. If so, this is noted in the creature's description. If a creature must trigger its blindsight ability, the creature gains the benefits of blindsight only during its turn.
Format: blindsight 60 ft.; Location: Senses.
Ya do what lantzkev said: either do like blind oracle, or give him the ability with like a level one feat, and have his character level equal is effective oracle level.
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Again?
Here are some words of wisdom I've posted in near-identical threads:
Blind people feel the shape of the buttons on their clothes. The shapes correspond with colors. That way a blind person can match his clothes and look nice. If you do a bit of research, you will find that there are tons of neat little tricks that blind people use to get by in every day life--adapting after years of being blind.
What the book refers to is not a magical higher sense thing, but more of a learned skill thing.
People who are blind for a long time don't get free benefits (or rather, they shouldn't). They "adapt" by taking appropriate feats/skills (the APG blind-fight line and the Racial Heritage/Keen Scent feats along with Perception) and adopting appropriate mannerisms (like folding money and having round buttons on all your red clothes and square buttons on all your blue clothes).
Roleplayers playing a "blind swordsman" only to get something BETTER THAN SIGHT such as blindsight FOR FREE is a BIG pet peeve of mine.
If you're going to be blind. BE BLIND. Take the penalties like a man.
If you are going to play a blind warrior archetype, either play a battle oracle or ACTUALLY PLAY A BLIND CHARACTER. None of this, "he's been blind since birth so he has blindsight" BS. That's a munchkin cop out grab for MORE power, not a character concept.
If you want to be blind REALLY be blind. Being blind is a handicap. Make it as such.
Allow me to help.
Step 1) Declare that your character is blind.
This means he will suffer the following penalties: You cannot see. You takes a –2 penalty to Armor Class, lose your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any), and take a –4 penalty on most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks and on opposed Perception skill checks. All checks and activities that rely on vision (such as reading and Perception checks based on sight) automatically fail. All opponents are considered to have total concealment (50% miss chance) against you. You must make a DC 10 Acrobatics skill check to move faster than half your speed. If you fail this fail this check you fall prone. If your character has remained blind for a long time grow accustomed to these drawbacks and can overcome some of them (by getting a walking stick, by folding your bills, and training with feats and skills, NOT be getting blindsense or blindsight for free).
Step 2) Mitigate the penalties as much as you can. Start with a high Wisdom score, max out your ranks in Perception, and take feats such as Alertness, Blind-Fight, Greater Blind-Fight, Improved Blind-Fight, and Skill Focus (Perception). This will allow you to better "hear" where the enemy is at and allow you to avoid ranged attacks coming out of the darkness.
Step 3) Play the character and understand that no matter what you do, he is handicapped. Playing such a difficult challenge will be a lot of fun if your GM cooperates a little.
Personal Note: I have a pet peeve about roleplayers who want to play blind characters that are not only not really blind, but are more powerful than sighted characters. Total cop out munchkinism.
Ever read The Dark Elf Trilogy? Montolio DeBrouchee is an excellent example of how to fight blind, even with ranged weapons. Montolio was a blind archer ranger who would send his animal companion (a falcon or a hawk) flying over his enemies' heads. The bird of prey would then call out to its master so Montolio always knew precisely where to shoot his arrows.
I can totally imagine a blind ranger doing this quite well with greater blind-fight, a flying animal companion, and full attacks.
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@Raving
They're certainly words, but I'm not sure if I'd call them "words of wisdom".
The penalties a character affected by long-term blindness should and will vary depending on the game, the storyline, and the overall feel the GM is going for.
Giving a blind character absolutely no way of coping without using the skill ranks and feats he'd gain normally by leveling up is a perfectly valid option. It also means that character will struggle significantly to keep up with other characters, and most likely will not. Alertness and Blind-Fight are at best band-aids.
Giving a blind character limited ways of coping (such as giving him limited blindsense (tied to audio perhaps?) or a variant of Clouded Vision, as per the Oracle) in addition to using skill ranks and feats is a perfectly valid option. He will struggle at times but he will also be able to pull his weight.
I find that when I'm designing character concepts with handicaps like this a good rule of thumb is as follows: If I were to bring this character to a PFS session, would people have reservations or object to having me at their table?
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What makes the blind swordsman concept so damned cool is that they have to deal with their blindness--an obstacle the makes them seem almsot superhuman because other, normal people, just can't seem to cope in similar circumstances.
Giving people a free work around defeats the entire concept.
I'm with Raving to some extent: if we're using the oracle curse but charging a few feats, it seems appropriate. The curse increases in effectiveness about 4 times, so why not just charge a feat at the approximate levels the curse increases?
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I would suggest investing in handle animal for sure. Learning the tell-tale signs of a trained companion is a good way to garner more information from your environment. Also, a mount. It's one thing to walk half speed in a building (most people do), but having the ability to keep up outside of that is still important.
Note, that the Olympic women's archery champion (I believe using recurve bows) is a legally blind. She is a Korean woman that can shoot a coin at 200+ feet, but can't actually see more than a blurry outline of the target's framework, and no idea of the concentric coloured circles that indicate the points values in archery.
If you use blindness as a flaw, it can warrant 2 feats. I used mine to take blind fighting and skill focus perception.
I play a blind vanguard in a Jade Regent campaign and I admit the DM is loose with the "pointing folks out in combat" penalties. Early on, the others would call out directions to the nearest baddies, but over time we assumed it away. But the AC hit, double miss, and auto fail sight based Perception checks are still there. Plus playing the loss of his eyes with bitterness, self pity, and resentment is enjoyable as a role playing opportunity.
He has since gained Suishen and communicates with the sword to help understand what's going on. Combined with a +20 something Perception, its worked out so far, but its always a hindrance. Can't cast any spell with a range greater than touch, for example. Forces me to look at the spell list in a different manner.
But gaining blind sight as a feat even 2 is ridiculous, unless he is part ooze of course. Too far a swing, imho.
Can't cast any spell with a range greater than touch, for example. Forces me to look at the spell list in a different manner.
Actually, you can cast spells with a range greater than touch. They essentially become touch spells at that point (though I doubt you get to hold the charge). If you read the rules for spell targeting in the Magic Chapter, they clearly state that you cannot target something you can't see, but that you can still cast target spells against the target if you can touch them.
i'd recommend a feat that gives the clouded vision oracle curse, maybe with skill focus (perception) and alertness as prerequisites.
I'd tend to go with the ravingdork view on things. While the blind do have significantly better hearing/smell/touch than an average sighted person, this is a long way from blindsight. Blindsense MAYBE. If somebody is really looking for the concept (and not just the power), they should be willing to accept the consequences, especially for something so significant. The same goes for somebody who wants to play an unusual race: it might be fun, but you've got to accept that some folk will look at you funny.
Then again, blindsense (with the consequences of blindness) might not be too bad. You can know where the folks are, but you're still penalized for not knowing their exact movements, cant perceive anyone invisible, and treat concealment as normal. Plus there's the whole "acrobatics checksjust to walk" thing if I remember correctly.
Getting cloud vision for just a feat is already AWESOME.
Give him no drawback for being blind and i assure you , the other will blind themselves , cause blindness with 0 problems is freaking good.
Want an example? Shiryu.
Would blind himself everytime because of the perks :P.
What makes the blind swordsman concept so damned cool is that they have to deal with their blindness--an obstacle the makes them seem almsot superhuman because other, normal people, just can't seem to cope in similar circumstances.
Giving people a free work around defeats the entire concept.
A person who has been blind since infancy would adapt to his condition by depending more heavily on his other senses - this would not be accurately reflected by simply using a level 1 character with the 'blind' condition.
I'd like to repeat that I'm not suggesting 90 feet blindvision is good replacement for actual vision - I was considering something more akin to 15 feet blindsense for a character who is completely blind. This would reflect the character's ability to pick out other character's scent, walk, mannerisms etc. To use a real world example, I was once told I was easily recognizable because I use a specific brand of fabric softener.
The Clouded Vision is also a viable option, but if so I'd suggest turning the curse abilities into an (optional) feat chain.
1-20 PC gets all drawbacks of being blinded. (Flat footed vs range, -ac, etc)
PC gains
1-5 (while PF is realistic, so realitic limitations/adaptations should apply) = Blind Fight for free. Life should suck. GMs should be throwing problems your way... conmen trying to exploit you, you're a liability in an ambush, etc.
6-10 (high fantasy starts, real world doesn't go this high, but is close)= PC gains Blind SENSE.
11-15 (high powered, if you're applying real world here you misundersand what the system represets at this level)= PC gains 20ft Blind Sight. 30ft tops. You are Daredevil early career.
16-20 (demigod levels)= Blind Sight extends to 40ft. Maybe 50ft. Mostly to ensure your blindsight can stay ahead of the reach of very large creatures you might melee.
That's how I'd house rule it, though at this point this is basically house rules forum stuff, not advice.
Using non-house rules, being blind is just a voluntary think where you don't gain squat unless you go Oracle or find a 3pp archtype or something.
Edit: ... and if this was a concept, I'd nerf the hell out of PC attempts to metagame/powergame it. If the PC got a Wish to heal them but argued they keep all the advantages or something, I'd rip the sheet up then make them watch as I urinated on it while evily cackling.
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Why waste any time mechanically if your just going to allow the character to have free or cheap access to things to get around being blind? That is utterly pointless to do.
That's not playing a blind swordsman.
Your better off just saying your character is a blind swordsman and then ignoring it like it will eventually be ignored if your going to do something like that.
If they want to be a blind swordsman then thy should have to properly play a blind character and it is up to them to figure out how to salvage that foolish concept.
Can't cast any spell with a range greater than touch, for example. Forces me to look at the spell list in a different manner.Actually, you can cast spells with a range greater than touch. They essentially become touch spells at that point (though I doubt you get to hold the charge). If you read the rules for spell targeting in the Magic Chapter, they clearly state that you cannot target something you can't see, but that you can still cast target spells against the target if you can touch them.
Hmm, interesting ... still draw an AoO/require defensive cast, I assume. And the lack of weapon channel makes it less appealing, but thought provoking nonetheless. Would you have to roll to hit with a touch range magic missile?
Personally, I'd give the player 5ft hearing based blind-sense, and that's it. That tells him one thing- there is a enemy near you. That's it. Everything will have to be mitigated on it's own.
This is mostly so you don't have to make a dc 20 perception check just to notice there is someone 5 ft from you, even when they aren't trying to hide.
Also, there is a problem with flat footed ness killing the character by rouges...
There's no way around that that i know of.
A person who has been blind since infancy would adapt to his condition by depending more heavily on his other senses
Which would be represented by taking feats and abilities like blind-fight at first level.
Also, there is a problem with flat-footedness killing the character by rogues... There's no way around that that I know of.
If you have blind-fight, then an invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee. That is, you don't lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn't get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible.
A person who has been blind since infancy would adapt to his condition by depending more heavily on his other sensesWhich would be represented by taking feats and abilities like blind-fight at first level.
Also, there is a problem with flat-footedness killing the character by rogues... There's no way around that that I know of.If you have blind-fight, then an invisible attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you in melee. That is, you don't lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn't get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible.
And how many rouges couldn't just throw daggers? Or used ranged gear?
(Note, villains in many campaigns are prepared to fight you, like you to fight them. An obvious weakness like that is so easily exploited. They can't really become awesome if they are just dead.)
To be fair, you didn't say anything about ranged attacks, icehawk. Also, ranged thown weapon rogues don't have great damage output unless they have quick draw and multiple attacks.
To be fair, you didn't say anything about ranged attacks, icehawk. Also, ranged rogues don't have great damage output unless they have quick draw and multiple attacks.
I suppose that's true. But overall, I'm not worried about direct efficency here, just overall survivability. Flat footed vs every ranged attack, rouge or not, is a little hard to deal with.
(By a little, i mean quite hard.)
Well I don't know about you but if I can;t avoid getting hit by people throwing stuff, I'd put on the thickest heaviest armor I could. You're moving at half speed anyhow.
Hmm... Blind Dwarven Swordsman in plate...
I don't see anything wrong with something like 10-15 ft. sound based Blindsense. Or maybe tremorsense. Something like that.
There's still a WHOLE lot of mechanical downsides there.
Pros:
-Really hard to sneak up on within that 10-15 ft. range.
-Immune to Gaze attacks.
-Maybe a few others I haven't thought of, but not too many.
Cons:
-Can't read.
-Extremely vulnerable to ranged attacks.
-Ditto creatures with reach attacking from beyond your range of Blindsense.
-Can't do anything involving actual sight (color matching puzzles, checking for many traps without setting them off, that sort of thing).
-More stuff I haven't thought of, I'm sure.
This in no way invalidates the concept, negates the downsides, or provides an overall mechanical advantage over sighted people. It does give the character a fighting chance.
Now, that's assuming this is what the player wants. After all, the "My character is actually blind, not a Daredevil expy" concept is just as valid, and probably just as fun as a personal challenge.
I could honestly dig tremorsense and maybe even scent to model Zatoichi the Blind Swordsman. Honestly, I've actually contemplated making a blind archer that uses a hawk or a dog as a spotter. I think it'd be a fun concept to pursue.
EDIT: Actually, after reading the excerpt about Blindsight, I could actually see that working better. Maybe a feat tree that first gives tremorsense, then later gives blindsight? Remember, blindsight still has the following stipulations:
- Any opponent the creature cannot see still has total concealment against the creature with blindsense, and the creature still has the normal miss chance when attacking foes that have concealment.
- Visibility still affects the movement of a creature with blindsense.
- A creature with blindsense is still denied its Dexterity bonus to Armor Class against attacks from creatures it cannot see.
So maybe a feat tree that stems from Blind-Fight and gives Blindsense, then a feat that removes some (though not all) of the weaknesses. Something like
- Blind-Fight
- Blindsense Feat that also allows them to move at full speed when blind?
- Some feat that maybe works like Uncanny Dodge. Probably a higher BAB prerequ
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The real question is why would there even BE a blind swordsman in a world where REMOVE BLINDNESS exists?
I'd like to see the back story for that!
The real question is why would there even BE a blind swordsman in a world where REMOVE BLINDNESS exists?
I'd like to see the back story for that!
The spells says it wont recover lost eyes/ears, only if they are damaged.
If a person actually lost their eyes wont they remain blind?
Could have also been born blind. I don't think Remove Blindness would help, the same way it wouldn't give eyesight back to a troglodyte (those are blind, right?).
For remove blindness to not work, they wouldn't just have to be born blind, they would need to be born without eyes.
I would allow it, and have it do absolutely nothing mechanically. He still makes perception checks like everyone else (since they represent all senses).
It is incumbent upon the player to role-play out the limitations of blindness. There's not a lot of sense in penalizing him and then giving him something like blind sense that is actually really good.
I wouldn't even have him be immune to the blindness spell. If it hits him, assume it compromises the other senses somehow.
It's an awesome character concept best handled entirely in fluff.