No it does not. It specifically calls out in the item that it's powers only work when an actual Sorcerer puts on the robe. While you can UMD features you cannot UMD and entire class from top to bottom.
When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching pulls itself apart and reweaves to match her particular sorcerer bloodlineIt is clear and unambiguous that the power as written is to affect an actual Sorcerer. Not someone with some feats that allow access to limited sorcerer class features but a full actual Sorcerer. Otherwise the wording above would have sais only bloodline not the entire class.
Clearly since it simply states that the Wearer gains the benefit.
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If... and this is going into hypothetical, if the robes could be used by a non-Sorcerer, it would only rise the level of the power provided by the Heritage feat by four. One would not gain additional powers from the bloodline.
It would be easier just to dip into Sorcerer instead of taking a feat for a minor power.
I never even considered one not a sorcerer taking that feat.
The way I read it is that the robes would work. It deals with bloodlines and bloodline powers, and a nonsorcerer would meet the only test it has to measure that, i.e. the presence of a bloodline and at least one bloodline power. It would adjust the effective level starting from the base as determined by the source of the bloodline, and provide additional benefits as determined by the source; in the case of the sorcerer class, it would give the +4 to the class level, and provide access to any further bloodline powers as determined by the class. In the case of eldritch heritage, it would modify the stated base level of character level -2, as set by the feat, and would impact the one power given by the feat, giving no additional benefits. I don't know why a non-sorcerer would bother with the cost, but it would work.
The whole military discount example doesn't work because D&D in general, and PF specifically, often has ways of "cheating" the system while still staying within the system that you don't have in real life. If you had a way of getting a legitimate military ID without actually being in the military, than getting the military discount would be entirely possible as the only way the restaurant really has to test it is the presence or absence of a military ID. In the case of the robes, the effective test is the presence of a bloodline and associated power; someone with eldritch heritage is able to pass that test sufficiently for the item to function.
I believe it would work, and that the sentence pertaining to a sorcerer donning it only applies to its change of appearance. The following sentence is clearly a separate and distinct thought.
Obviously it isn't clear or there wouldn't be a disagreement about it. Personally, I don't think that the feat and the item are compatible by the rules as written. I interpret that the wearer must be a sorcerer.
Now, having looked at it I certainly don't see the harm in allowing it. I'd houserule it as okay. But I stand by the fact that I don't think that RAW allows it.
I think this is another case of people getting way too nitpicky about the precise language of the rules, which the devs have explained more than once they really don't bother with when they're actually writing the rules. When you need to argue that increasing the effective sorcerer level doesn't actually mean increasing the effective sorcerer level because of X, Y, and Z minor linguistic technicalities regarding how a piece of equipment interacts with a feat that didn't even exist when the item was published...
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Robe of Arcane Heritage
You know that it don't work as a FAQ question and almost certainly will not generate a reply beside "question unclear"?
Generally when reading the questions marked for the FAQ the developers only read the actual faqed post, not the thread.
Obviously it isn't clear...
Allow me to rephrase: It is clear to me. But I only graduated as an English and Journalism major, and have worked as a writer and editor for magainzes and newspapers for years, so what do I know? <- rhetorical
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My reading of Eldritch Heritage and Robes of Arcane Heritage would allow them to work together. It would be of limited use, but still valid as an option.
Which is what I meant when I said "limited use."
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To elaborate, the robes would (If you could use it as a non-sorcerer) only raise the power granted by the feat to a sorcerer level of 4. If the character is already 7th level or higher, the robes do nothing for him, as the power is already higher level than what the robes would give you.
The sorcerer level -2 is only for the purpose of that power for that feat, not a universal for the power that other feats/items can pull on. It is one superseding the other, whichever one is higher.
To be specific, the character has no sorcerer level unless he actually is a sorcerer. For the purpose of the robes, it is 0 plus 4 for the single power the character with the feat has.
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"For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities."
So for purposes of the power (which is what we're using the robes to buff, we treat our sorcerer level as CL - 2. Because the robes allow:
"The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects."
We would treat our Sorcerer level for that power (CL - 2) as 4 higher than normal (CL + 2) for purposes of using the power granted by Eldritch Heritage. This is pretty straight forward...
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Except, if you have no sorcerer levels, then the Robes wouldn't help.
Put it another way. The Feat treats the power as Character level -2. (This is to make it lesser than the other bloodline of a single class sorcerer)
The Robes does not look at that. It looks at class levels. If your Sorcerer level is 0, then it ups the power by four. The only way to gain more power for it is to dip into Sorcerer.
So, if your 7th level, the feat gives you more of the level increase than the Robes.
The Robes and the Feat does not stack.
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Except, if you have no sorcerer levels, then the Robes wouldn't help.
Put it another way. The Feat treats the power as Character level -2. (This is to make it lesser than the other bloodline of a single class sorcerer)
The Robes does not look at that. It looks at class levels. If your Sorcerer level is 0, then it ups the power by four. The only way to gain more power for it is to dip into Sorcerer.
So, if your 7th level, the feat gives you more of the level increase than the Robes.
The Robes and the Feat does not stack.
Uh no. Eldritch Heritage:
"For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer."
So for using that power, my 15th level fighter is considered a 13th level Sorcerer. Period. No room for misinterpretation here.
Robe of Arcane Heritage:
"The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects."
Check 1, my fighter has a bloodline power and he could possibly have more.
Check 2, He is considered a 13th level Sorcerer for determining it's effects and use.
The robes allow him to treat his effective sorcerer level of 13 as 4 higher.
For your first statement, if our character was not considered to have sorcerer levels, the powers would not function.
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Except, if you have no sorcerer levels, then the Robes wouldn't help.
Put it another way. The Feat treats the power as Character level -2. (This is to make it lesser than the other bloodline of a single class sorcerer)
The Robes does not look at that. It looks at class levels. If your Sorcerer level is 0, then it ups the power by four. The only way to gain more power for it is to dip into Sorcerer.
So, if your 7th level, the feat gives you more of the level increase than the Robes.
The Robes and the Feat does not stack.
Uh no. Eldritch Heritage:
"For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer."
So for using that power, my 15th level fighter is considered a 13th level Sorcerer. Period. No room for misinterpretation here.
Robe of Arcane Heritage:
"The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects."Check 1, my fighter has a bloodline power and he could possibly have more.
Check 2, He is considered a 13th level Sorcerer for determining it's effects and use.The robes allow him to treat his effective sorcerer level of 13 as 4 higher.
For your first statement, if our character was not considered to have sorcerer levels, the powers would not function.
See bolded part. When you use it, it is treated as the power of that level.
The Robes, however, is not looking at the power as you use it, it is looking at it as a static power with your actual class level in sorcerer as "0" and up that to "4." So when you use the power, you either get the Feat adjustment, or the robes, not both.
To put it another way, the robes does not add to the character level, just the Sorcerer level. Look at the corner of the player sheet. No sorcerer levels? There you go.
For this power, I have a sorcerer level equal to my fighter level (15)-2. For this power I am considered to be a 13th Level Sorcerer. The robes increase sorcerer level yes. I do not disagree with you there. However my character level only plays a part in setting my initial considered sorcerer level. The Robes increase THAT.
To your comment above, that is why it is perfectly reasonable to allow it.
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Eldritch Heritage gives the character a "sorcerer level" to determine the effects of the bloodline power.
The robes increase sorcerer level for the effects of bloodline powers.
So the robes should increase the sorcerer level for the bloodline power the feat gives you.
The robes also increase your sorcerer level for what bloodline powers you have, but since you don't have bloodline power progression with the feat (only the one power) the robes don't give you more powers.
Of course, if you continue the Eldritch Heritage feat chain, the robes increase your sorcerer level for all powers you have.
Still, the robes are probably not worth it, but should work.
The Robes, however, is not looking at the power as you use it, it is looking at it as a static power with your actual class level in sorcerer as "0" and up that to "4." So when you use the power, you either get the Feat adjustment, or the robes, not both.
This is a whole lot of supposition on your part. I don't think there's any indication any of this is either RAW or RAI. Not to say that it's refuted, but you're taking as a given several very specific ways of looking at the rules that are not codified.
If the robes don't apply, I think it has to be based on the idea that the Robe text specifically references a Sorcerer. This whole idea of the robe "looking at the power as you use it" vs "looking at a static power" is pulled directly from your behind.
And I really don't understand how anyone would think this is overpowered. If it's not overpowered to get the power through Eldritch Heritage, then it can't be overpowered to increase the effective level, since the benefit you get from the robe as an Eldritch Heritage build is nowhere near the benefit a sorcerer gets from it.
Shtuff...Uh... The feat does not give you a bloodline, just the bloodline power, the first one, from that bloodline. Hence, my post above.
The robes don't care if it's a single power or a full bloodline. It is not what is granting the sorcerer additional powers; it is simply enhancing the power provided by the source. The source determines what you get in terms of powers and their effective base level. So yes, getting a single bloodline power by a feat would be different from having the full sorcerer bloodline that grants multiple powers based on your level. For the purposes of these robes, however, the base effect is the same; it takes the base level for that bloodline power (whether that be determined by your class level or your character level - 2) and increases it by 4.
It's probably not worth the effort unless you really plan on taking the full feat chain, as that is the only way through the feats to get multiple powers, but it does work as intended with Eldritch Heritage. The feat gives an effective sorcerer level which can be further modified by the robes. Not worth it for one power, but if you intend to take the full chain, I could see the robes being potentially worth it in the right build.
So then you believe that if a restaurant has a sign up that says, "We support our troops! Come in and get a 15% discount on your meal!" that if you walk in, and you are not a member of the military, they'll still give you the 15% discount?I'd say that's a somewhat off-base question. A better analogy would use a person from an Auxiliary service or a military-like group like the National Guard or Border Patrol. If a member of the Merchant Marines or the Navy Auxiliary or the US Border Patrol walked into the restaurant, would they be entitled to the discount? That's the question being debated here, not a person with absolutely no connection to the military. If being a Sorcerer is equitable to active-duty military, being a non-Sorc with Eldritch Heritage is equitable to being in the reserves, the auxiliary, or maybe even the national guard which, while not strictly a branch of the military, is very similar in activity if not scope. The discount at the restaurant doesn't specify "active duty military" which would exclude those other categories I listed; it merely calls out military. What about military dependents like spouses or children? Those would be equitable to a character with neither Eldritch Heritage nor Sorcerer levels. They start with an effective Sorc level of 4. Could they wear the robes and gain an effective Sorc level of 4, even though they have no bloodline to change? Could wearing the robe cause them to temporarily manifest bloodline powers of a 4th level Sorc but only while they wear the robes and pass the UMD check? How would they determine the bloodline? Choose once and that's permanently their "latent Sorc bloodline" which they must choose if they subsequently take levels in Sorcerer? Would retired military get the discount?
It was less an analogy and more pointing out grammar structure.
In the example sentence, it's grammatically understood that the second sentence is restricted by the first sentence. The two are separate clauses but contextually they understood that the first modifies\restricts the second.
My point is that the robe's description text follows a similar structure. The sentence regarding "When a sorcerer wears the robe..." applies a restrictive context to the entire text of the description, not just to the words that follow in that particular sentence.
If we assume that "When a sorcerer wears the robe..." is not setting a restriction for the remaining rules of the item, then by the same logic we must assume that the discount is not restricted only to the military - and despite claims to the contrary, that is not realistically how such a sentence would be read by most people.
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Except that is not what the robe says. (The grammatical flaws of the Restaurant sign aside.)
The robe has another noun in the second sentence, namely "wearer". So a more accurate rendition of your analogy would be.
"Troops receive a fancy weaved napkin. Patrons receive a 15% discount."
As you can see, troops are themselves patrons and thus would receive the 15% discount. Which is what the wording of the Robe says. No one here is arguing that the Patrons get a fancy weaved napkin.
Except that is not what the robe says. (The grammatical flaws of the Restaurant sign aside.)
The robe has another noun in the second sentence, namely "wearer". So a more accurate rendition of your metaphor would be.
"Troops receive a fancy weaved napkin. Patrons receive a 15% discount."
All sentences have nouns in them, unless they're sentence fragments; that does not decouple them from context set by earlier sentences. That doesn't mean that one sentence is restricted from modifying or restricting the subject of a following sentence. In this case, the "wearer" is the "sorcerer" from the previous sentence.
It's like referring to "Harold" in the first sentence, and then referring to "the man" in the second sentence - grammatically it's accepted that "the man" is Harold and that the second sentence is connected to the first. In fact, if you intend it not to be Harold, the rules of grammar explicitly require you to call that out; otherwise you are left with a dangling modifier.
No, no it doesn't.
It means wearer is a broad group of people. The proper analogy of your new Harold, the man would not use "the man" but rather "Men" of which Harold is a particular subset. There is no dangling modifier, the second noun is just more expansive then you would like and thus are you are attempting to read into the sentence things that aren't there.
No, no it doesn't.
It means wearer is a broad group of people. The proper analogy of your new Harold, the man would not use "the man" but rather "Men" of which Harold is a particular subset. There is no dangling modifier, the second noun is just more expansive then you would like and thus are you are attempting to read into the sentence things that aren't there.
"Harold was a cab driver. The man took pride in his work."
Perfectly valid sentence. There's no need to use the word 'men' because the second sentence refers to a specific individual. IF you intended for it to refer to someone else, or to a group, then you cannot simply replace it with the phrase "The men..." because it then makes no sense; you would instead have to explicitly state a change of contextual subject.
You are reading wearer to indicate a class, when it can just as easily indicate an individual. 'Wearer' can refer to "anyone who wears" or it can indicate one specific individual wearing the robe. In order for it to refer to "anyone who wears", you must decouple the second sentence from the first, and that is not simply not grammatically valid.
So at best, the most that either of us can say with surety based on grammar alone is that as written, its function is indeterminate. I feel from your previous responses that you won't agree, but in any case, I don't think beating this horse further is of any value.
Going by RAW on the PRD:
Other Considerations: Once you have a cost figure, reduce that number if either of the following conditions applies:
Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the price by 30%.
Cost of the Robe is 8,000. Price is 16,000. Therefore, it does not require a specific class (Sorcerer) to use and I would say valid for anyone with a Sorcerer bloodline, whether gained through 1 level of the class or through Eldrich Heritage, to use as written.
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"Matthew likes to collect coins. A collector takes pride in his collection."
In this case, while "collector" likely includes Matthew, it isn't a specific reference to him, it includes all collectors of all things.
Sentences are contextually restricted, true. But stating one sentence and the next, even if addressing similar topics, must be so restricted is not grammatically correct.
A classic logic example. "when it rains, the ground gets wet. The ground is wet today." If you read the second sentence only in the context of the first sentence, you would conclude it must have rained today. But that is a fallacy, because the ground could be wet for other reasons.
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These elegant, dark purple robes are usually decorated with gold stitching suggesting a particular sorcerer bloodline, though some might indicate a family tree. When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching pulls itself apart and reweaves to match her particular sorcerer bloodline. The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects.
So... auto match on the bloodline of the sorcerer, Sorcerer level 4 higher than normal for what powers you get and effects. good.
Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.
So... Skill focus to get the feat, get one power, no bloodline. OK. When you use the power, it is character level -2 for effects.
Now, when the robes are donned, it is still questionable if a non-sorcerer can even get it's effects.
Even if that is possible, the robes treats the character's sorcerer level as 4 higher than what they have. (to determine powers gotten from the bloodline, which the Non-Sorcerer doesn't have anyway, and the effects from those powers) Great.
The feat gives you a single power, it treats the use of that power as character level - 2 as the sorcerer power level, even though the character has no sorcerer levels at all. (Or even if the character has sorcerer levels exclusively)
So, end result. Wearing the robes, if it works, the power used by a non sorcerer with the relevant feat is either character level -2 or sorcerer level 4, which ever is higher.
These elegant, dark purple robes are usually decorated with gold stitching suggesting a particular sorcerer bloodline, though some might indicate a family tree. When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching pulls itself apart and reweaves to match her particular sorcerer bloodline. The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects.So... auto match on the bloodline of the sorcerer, Sorcerer level 4 higher than normal for what powers you get and effects. good.
Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.So... Skill focus to get the feat, get one power, no bloodline. OK. When you use the power, it is character level -2 for effects.
Now, when the robes are donned, it is still questionable if a non-sorcerer can even get it's effects.
Even if that is possible, the robes treats the character's sorcerer level as 4 higher than what they have. (to determine powers gotten from the bloodline, which the Non-Sorcerer doesn't have anyway, and the effects from those powers) Great.
The feat gives you a single power, it treats the use of that power as character level - 2 as the sorcerer power level, even though the character has no sorcerer levels at all. (Or even if the character has sorcerer levels exclusively)
So, end result. Wearing the robes, if it works, the power used by a non sorcerer with the relevant feat is either character level -2 or sorcerer level 4, which ever is higher.
No, it very plainly increase your Sorcerer level for the purpose of that power which is CL - 2 by 4, for a total of CL + 2. The feat quite explicitly treats you as a sorcerer of your CL - 2 for that power. The robes very clearly raise your sorcerer level by 4. For purposes of that feat you very clearly have a sorcerer level and thus it is raised by 4. I'm not sure why you are blatantly ignoring the wording of Eldritch Heritage, but it would explain the flaws in your interpretation. My recommendation is to read the feat you are discussing more thoroughly in the future.
Going by RAW on the PRD:
Other Considerations: Once you have a cost figure, reduce that number if either of the following conditions applies:
Item Requires Specific Class or Alignment to Use: Even more restrictive than requiring a skill, this limitation cuts the price by 30%.Cost of the Robe is 8,000. Price is 16,000. Therefore, it does not require a specific class (Sorcerer) to use and I would say valid for anyone with a Sorcerer bloodline, whether gained through 1 level of the class or through Eldrich Heritage, to use as written.
Incredibly insightful post. Thank you very very much. Going by this guideline it would make a great deal of sense in allowing others to use the robes. If it were sorcerer only it would cost less.
These elegant, dark purple robes are usually decorated with gold stitching suggesting a particular sorcerer bloodline, though some might indicate a family tree. When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching pulls itself apart and reweaves to match her particular sorcerer bloodline. The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects.So... auto match on the bloodline of the sorcerer, Sorcerer level 4 higher than normal for what powers you get and effects. good.
Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.So... Skill focus to get the feat, get one bloodline power, no other bloodline abilities. OK. When you use the power, it gives you a sorcerer level of character level -2 for effects.
Now, when the robes are donned, it is still questionable to me if a non-sorcerer can even get it's effects.
Even if that is possible, the robes treats the character's sorcerer level as 4 higher than what they have and they have a sorcerer level of character level -2 for their bloodline power. (to determine powers gotten from the bloodline, which the Non-Sorcerer doesn't have anyway, and the effects from those powers which they do) Great.
The feat gives you a single bloodline power, it treats the use of that power as character level - 2 as the sorcerer power level, even though the character has no sorcerer levels at all except the sorcerer level from the feat itself. (Or even if the character has sorcerer levels exclusively)
So, end result. Wearing the robes, if it works, the power used by a non sorcerer with the relevant feat is his sorcerer level from the feat plus four from the robes.
So, end result. Wearing the robes, if it works, the power used by a non sorcerer with the relevant feat is his sorcerer level from the feat plus four from the robes.
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This is how I read it.Now if we want to have some fun - what happens when a Sorcerer who also has the Eldritch Heritage feats puts it on...? I ask because its the rare Sorcerer that I make who doesn't use the feats to dip into an alternative bloodline.
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So, end result. Wearing the robes, if it works, the power used by a non sorcerer with the relevant feat is his sorcerer level from the feat plus four from the robes..
This is how I read it.Now if we want to have some fun - what happens when a Sorcerer who also has the Eldritch Heritage feats puts it on...? I ask because its the rare Sorcerer that I make who doesn't use the feats to dip into an alternative bloodline.
IIRC, both get boosted. (I believe I saw this answer posted in some other thread on that subject)
Just like a phylactery of positive channeling would boost all positive channels made by a multiclass Cleric/Oracle of Life/Necromancer, regardless of the class that grants them.
Would the robes allow early entry into improved eldritch heritage?
I am assuming the answer is "no".
Would the robes allow early entry into improved eldritch heritage?
I am assuming the answer is "no".
You are correct the answer is indeed no, mostly because Improved Eldritch Heritage's prerequisites look at your actual character level and demand you be at least 11th level. So the robes have no effect on entry into IEH at all.
You do have the complete package of Sorcerer levels equal to CL - 2 for purposes of your bloodline power.
"Matthew likes to collect coins. A collector takes pride in his collection."
In this case, while "collector" likely includes Matthew, it isn't a specific reference to him, it includes all collectors of all things.
Your collector example is flawed. To match the wording on the robes it would have had to state, "Matthew likes to collect coins. The collector takes pride in his collection." Which collector? Matthew.
Grammatically, I don't think that the robes are compatible. However, based on the pricing guidelines and the likely timeline of this item being created before the feat it should probably be usable by non-sorcerers. I would allow it in a home game, I'm still unconvinced that RAW allows it. But unless you are being hamstrung by RAW I wouldn't be concerned about it.
"Matthew likes to collect coins. A collector takes pride in his collection."
In this case, while "collector" likely includes Matthew, it isn't a specific reference to him, it includes all collectors of all things.
Your collector example is flawed. To match the wording on the robes it would have had to state, "Matthew likes to collect coins. The collector takes pride in his collection." Which collector? Matthew.
Grammatically, I don't think that the robes are compatible. However, based on the pricing guidelines and the likely timeline of this item being created before the feat it should probably be usable by non-sorcerers. I would allow it in a home game, I'm still unconvinced that RAW allows it. But unless you are being hamstrung by RAW I wouldn't be concerned about it.
Exactly my sentiments. Grammatically, I don't believe they allow non-sorcerers to use them. The price argument, however, is accurate and compelling.
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...These elegant, dark purple robes are usually decorated with gold stitching suggesting a particular sorcerer bloodline, though some might indicate a family tree. When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching pulls itself apart and reweaves to match her particular sorcerer bloodline. The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects.So... auto match on the bloodline of the sorcerer, Sorcerer level 4 higher than normal for what powers you get and effects. good.
Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.So... Skill focus to get the feat, get one bloodline power, no other bloodline abilities. OK. When you use the power, it gives you a sorcerer level of character level -2 for effects.
Now, when the robes are donned, it is still questionable to me if a non-sorcerer can even get it's effects.
Even if that is possible, the robes treats the character's sorcerer level as 4 higher than what they have and they have a sorcerer level of character level -2 for their bloodline power. (to determine powers gotten from the bloodline, which the Non-Sorcerer doesn't have anyway, and the effects from those powers which they do) Great.
The feat gives you a single bloodline power, it treats the use of that power as character level - 2 as the sorcerer power level, even though the character has no sorcerer levels at all except the
The problem, as you look at the changes provided above, is that there is no sorcerer levels, only character level used as a sorcerer level in relation to the single power as it is used. The Robes isn't saying "Sorcerer like levels," it is saying "Sorcerer levels" meaning actual class levels. Notice that I did mention that you would still get Character level minus two even if your a single class Sorcerer. (Meaning a 10 level sorcerer would use the secondary power from the feat at 8th level) It is meant to make the power a bit less powered than the main Bloodline.
Either way you go, stacking or using the higher, it is minimal benefit and not worth getting for a Non-Sorcerer, maybe with the exception of having a familiar get another HD.
Uh no ThaX. It states your sorcerer level for the power is your character level -2. Meaning you do have a sorcerer level in regards to that power. Which is why the robes function. The Robes up your sorcerer level in regards to the bloodline power and it's effects. Guess what? I have sorcerer levels in regards to a bloodline power and it's effects.
The only argument for the Robes functioning for a non-sorcerer is grammatical clarification and the price of the robes favor anyone using it.
*Shrug*
I just look at how it is presented, and I don't see one stacking with the other. If that is the case, would a sorcerer have double level minus 2 for it?
(using the example above, 10 level sorcerer using it at 18th level)
How so? A sorcerer would have a level of 14 for his main bloodline and 12 for the powers he picked up with Eldritch Heritage.
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Using the example of the Robes you cited, he would have 10 for the sorcerer and 8 more for the feat. (Or 14 and 12, with your above post example. 14 + 12 = 18)
I was looking at it (The Feat) without the robes, btw. If the robes stack...
Uh what math are you using? OHHHHHH. Your trying to say he would combine his sorcerer levels. No.
The feat states that for the purposes of that specific power, regardless if you have sorcerer levels, your sorcerer level is considered to be -2 your character level.
At the end he has:
For his Bloodline, he is considered a 14th level Sorcerer for all of his bloodline powers and effects
For his Eldritch Heritage, He is considered a 12th level Sorcerer when using that power and it's effects.
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... I don't think you are following what is being said so I'll try and break it down as clearly as I possibly can. A Sorcerer 10 (Bob) has a Sorcerer Level of 10. If Bob the Sorcerer puts on a Robe of Arcane Heritage, it reweaves to match his bloodline and is considered to be a level 14 Sorcerer for determining what bloodline powers Bob can use and the effects of his bloodline powers.
Now Bob takes Eldritch Heritage (Math Bloodline). Eldritch Heritage gives Bob an effective Sorcerer level equal to his character level - 2, so Bob has an effective Sorcerer level of 8 for his Math Bloodline power, even though he himself is a 10th level Sorcerer. Now if Bob puts his Robe back on (and Bob really should) it increases his Sorcerer level again. For his regular bloodline this works as above. But because his bloodline power is only treating him as an 8th level sorcerer, the robe will increase that to 12 for that bloodline power.
Get it?