Can a non-Sorcerer with the Eldritch heritage feats use a Robe of Arcane Heritage?


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Robe of Arcane Heritage


Eldritch Heritage cares not for your Sorcerer level, only you Character Level.

Eldritch Heritage:
Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.

I know this sounds silly to say you don't have the bloodline, but you don't have the bloodline. You have a power from the bloodline, not everything from it.

Robes of Arcane Heritage:
These elegant, dark purple robes are usually decorated with gold stitching suggesting a particular sorcerer bloodline, though some might indicate a family tree. When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching pulls itself apart and reweaves to match her particular sorcerer bloodline. The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects.

We've all forgotten you have to be a Sorcerer to even get the benefits of the Robes.

Edit: Including text from the relevant feat and item. My response was woefully underwhelming.


Then why does it mention that your Sorcerer level for the purpose of the bloodline is equal to your character level -2?

I don't see why it wouldn't work.


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It says "The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects", so that would suggest that yes, it would work. It's not particularly clear, though, so it's a decent FAQ candidate.


PrinceDogWaterIII wrote:

Eldritch Heritage cares not for your Sorcerer level, only you Character Level.

** spoiler omitted **

I know this sounds silly to say you don't have the bloodline, but you don't have the bloodline. You have a power from the bloodline, not everything from it.

** spoiler omitted **

We've all forgotten you have to be a Sorcerer to even get the benefits of the Robes.

.

Actually, when I read that part of the description, I read these two sentences as separate aspects of the robe:

1) When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching pulls itself apart and reweaves to match her particular sorcerer bloodline.

2) The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects.

By virtue of the Eldritch Heritage feats, you already have a 'Sorcerer level' for purposes of acquiring and determining the effectiveness of Bloodline powers... so it seems on the surface to me to say that it would work just fine.

Any contradicting opinions on this point?

Grand Lodge

Nope!


I say yes. Items that are restricted to being worn by certain classes/alignments/races tend to say so outright. You have bloodline powers, which is what the robe helps with. You have an effective sorcerer level, which is what it changes.


Eldritch Heritage wrote:
For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer.
Robe of Arcane Heritage wrote:
The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects.

So, this is where things get confusing. Say you're a sorcerer who has taken Eldritch Heritage. The feat gives you an effective sorcerer level, which is separate from your actual sorcerer level. So what happens when you don the robe? Does the effective increase of your sorcerer level likewise increase your effective character level? I think it's open enough to interpretation to FAQ.


Eldritch Heritage doesn't give you sorcerer levels, it merely sets the bloodline power's power level at character level-2. Nothing in Eldritch Heritage gives you an actual sorcerer level.

The robe specifically calls out being worn by a sorcerer.

So no, you don't gain any benefit from the robe for just having the feat.

Sczarni

I'd say it would increase usage abilities based on your lvl but nothing more.


Aureate wrote:

Eldritch Heritage doesn't give you sorcerer levels, it merely sets the bloodline power's power level at character level-2. Nothing in Eldritch Heritage gives you an actual sorcerer level.

The robe specifically calls out being worn by a sorcerer.

So no, you don't gain any benefit from the robe for just having the feat.

Emphasis mine--it doesn't give you a "power level", it says it gives you an effective sorcerer level of your level-2. RoAH doesn't increase your sorcerer level either, it increases your EFFECTIVE sorcerer level for bloodline purposes, the same thing eldritch heritage gives you.


137ben wrote:
Aureate wrote:

Eldritch Heritage doesn't give you sorcerer levels, it merely sets the bloodline power's power level at character level-2. Nothing in Eldritch Heritage gives you an actual sorcerer level.

The robe specifically calls out being worn by a sorcerer.

So no, you don't gain any benefit from the robe for just having the feat.

Emphasis mine--it doesn't give you a "power level", it says it gives you an effective sorcerer level of your level-2. RoAH doesn't increase your sorcerer level either, it increases your EFFECTIVE sorcerer level for bloodline purposes, the same thing eldritch heritage gives you.

\

Does the robe grant powers to a non-sorcerer?

No.

It says that when a sorcerer dons the robe it does stuff. THAT is the key.

Since that is the baseline, then you go to Eldritch Heritage which gives you a bloodline power and sets that powers level. But it does not give you a level in sorcerer. It does not allow you to treat yourself as a sorcerer for items that you equip.

If the robe said instead that "when a character dons the robe" then we would be looking at a different argument. But it doesn't. RAW requires that it is a sorcerer who dons the robe.


Aureate wrote:
137ben wrote:
Aureate wrote:

Eldritch Heritage doesn't give you sorcerer levels, it merely sets the bloodline power's power level at character level-2. Nothing in Eldritch Heritage gives you an actual sorcerer level.

The robe specifically calls out being worn by a sorcerer.

So no, you don't gain any benefit from the robe for just having the feat.

Emphasis mine--it doesn't give you a "power level", it says it gives you an effective sorcerer level of your level-2. RoAH doesn't increase your sorcerer level either, it increases your EFFECTIVE sorcerer level for bloodline purposes, the same thing eldritch heritage gives you.

\

Does the robe grant powers to a non-sorcerer?

No.

It says that when a sorcerer dons the robe it does stuff. THAT is the key.

Since that is the baseline, then you go to Eldritch Heritage which gives you a bloodline power and sets that powers level. But it does not give you a level in sorcerer. It does not allow you to treat yourself as a sorcerer for items that you equip.

If the robe said instead that "when a character dons the robe" then we would be looking at a different argument. But it doesn't. RAW requires that it is a sorcerer who dons the robe.

Again, RAW the robe only requires you to be a Sorcerer for the stitching to rearrange itself. The remaining affects effect the 'wearer' and boosts their effective Sorcerer level.

My interpretation is that you'll gain Eldritch Heritage powers at Character Level -2, then at +4 from the Robe meaning that you will gain the Eldritch Heritage powers at Character Level +2... though it doesn't remove any level requirement to take the feats of course.


Yeh. Seems one needs to be a sorcerer


The mechanical functionality all follows the line about "When a sorcerer..." Therefore, I believe it implies that all functionality is tied to a sorcerer wearing the robe.

Example: A restaurant has a sign up that says, "We support our active military! When you come in, you'll receive a 15% discount!"

If we apply the same logic used to state that all the "When a sorcerer..." line restricts is the rearrangement of the stitching, then you're essentially saying that the restaurant gives everyone a 15% discount, and that the preceding line is just 'filler'.

So I don't believe the robes grant anything to a non-sorcerer; if anything needs fixed, it's the lack of a clear notation of restriction to sorcerers only.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

You are focusing on a particular when the whole reason for the robes is to be used by a sorcerer. Eldritch Heritage gives you a single power, the robes would not help you as one does not have the bloodline, just a power.

If you do use the Robes through a rules "loophole" one would not gain any powers, just slightly improve the power the character has through the feat. Not worth the price that the Robe costs.

The Exchange

Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Duck rule, no FAQ needed

Sovereign Court

To those of you who say that it does nothing for non-sorcerers: what if someone makes the DC 21 UMD check to emulate the bloodline class feature?


Unfortunately, the item's main benefit is useless to anyone who does not gain new bloodline power from their sorcerer level (i.e. all non-sorcerers). However, it would seem to boost the effects of any bloodline power you do possess, gained from whatever source, and whether you technically have a sorcerer level or a bloodline or not.


RAW, it does indeed function.

RAW, when a Sorcerer dons the Robe, it undergoes a cosmetic change. Nothing about the item as written says that the item even has to match your bloodline to function.

Eldritch Heritage grants our 15th level Fighter an effective Sorcerer level of 13 for the purposes of using his Orc bloodline power.

Robes of Arcane Heritage allows our fighter to treat his sorcerer level as 4 higher for the purposes of his Orc Bloodline power and maybe any other powers he grabbed with the higher Eldritch Heritage feats.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sir Culer wrote:

Then why does it mention that your Sorcerer level for the purpose of the bloodline is equal to your character level -2?

I don't see why it wouldn't work.

You seem to be purposely forgetting this line

When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage

What are you expecting to get as a non-sorcerer?


Illeist wrote:
To those of you who say that it does nothing for non-sorcerers: what if someone makes the DC 21 UMD check to emulate the bloodline class feature?

Sure. While the emulate check doesn't actually grant you a bloodline, it does bypass the class check. The rest of the text only mentions increasing your effective sorcerer level for the purposes of what bloodline powers you can use. So if you have a bloodline power, regardless of source, UMD-ing should work.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I think it's a bit unclear, but here's how I think it works RAW :

If you have no sorcerer level at all, it doesn't work, full stop.

If you have 1 level of sorcerer, and Eldritch Heritage to gain a different bloodline power from another type of sorcerer, then I think it would set your Sorcerer level bloodline power to level 5 for purposes of using that power. It should also set your effective level for your eldritch heritage from the other bloodline to HD + 2 (it increases your effective sorcerer level). SO in this case, you'd get a 'double' boost, one to the Sorcerer class (1 level + 4 = 5) and to the eldritch heritage granted effective sorcerer level.

I think the way it would work RAI :

If you have Eldritch Heritage, it would set your effective level to HD + 2. It would also boost your sorcerer abilities by +4 if you had sorcerer levels.


Scavion wrote:

RAW, it does indeed function.

RAW, when a Sorcerer dons the Robe, it undergoes a cosmetic change. Nothing about the item as written says that the item even has to match your bloodline to function.

Eldritch Heritage grants our 15th level Fighter an effective Sorcerer level of 13 for the purposes of using his Orc bloodline power.

Robes of Arcane Heritage allows our fighter to treat his sorcerer level as 4 higher for the purposes of his Orc Bloodline power and maybe any other powers he grabbed with the higher Eldritch Heritage feats.

If you make your UMD check, sure. The robe specifically says that it works when a sorcerer dons it. In such situations, the remainder of the text is assumed to follow as a coupled effect with the same qualifier; it does not exist in isolation as a separate effect. Without that qualifier, no UMD check would be necessary, but otherwise your fighter will be sad.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Illeist wrote:
To those of you who say that it does nothing for non-sorcerers: what if someone makes the DC 21 UMD check to emulate the bloodline class feature?

That UMD check convince the item you have a class feature, it not giver it to you.

PRD wrote:
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

So you convince the item you have the class feature, it activate and find nothing to affect.

End result, nothing happen.

BTW, it is a DC 20 check.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
Illeist wrote:
To those of you who say that it does nothing for non-sorcerers: what if someone makes the DC 21 UMD check to emulate the bloodline class feature?

That UMD check convince the item you have a class feature, it not giver it to you.

PRD wrote:
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

So you convince the item you have the class feature, it activate and find nothing to affect.

End result, nothing happen.

BTW, it is a DC 20 check.

Diego,

You're missing the fact he does have the class feature. Via the feat. He just isn't a sorcerer.


Actually, he doesn't have the class feature. He has a specific power from a bloodline via the feat; the feat does not state that it grants you the Bloodline class feature.

That said, I don't think that's really a good argument on the matter. I still believe that the reference to "When a sorcerer..." indicates that the robe is intended for those with sorcerer levels only, and doesn't grant benefit to anyone else regardless of their various feats.

Sczarni

really?

Quote:

Class Features

All of the following are class features of the sorcerer.

Weapon and Armor Proficiency: Sorcerers are proficient with all simple weapons. They are not proficient with any type of armor or shield. Armor interferes with a sorcerer's gestures, which can cause her spells with somatic components to fail (see Arcane Spells and Armor).

Spells: A sorcerer casts arcane spells drawn primarily from the sorcerer/wizard spell list presented in Spell Lists. She can cast any spell she knows without preparing it ahead of time. To learn or cast a spell, a sorcerer must have a Charisma score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a sorcerer's spell is 10 + the spell level + the sorcerer's Charisma modifier.

Like other spellcasters, a sorcerer can cast only a certain number of spells of each spell level per day. Her base daily spell allotment is given on Table: Sorcerer. In addition, she receives bonus spells per day if she has a high Charisma score (see Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells).

A sorcerer's selection of spells is extremely limited. A sorcerer begins play knowing four 0-level spells and two 1st-level spells of her choice. At each new sorcerer level, she gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a sorcerer knows is not affected by her Charisma score; the numbers on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known are fixed.) These new spells can be common spells chosen from the sorcerer/wizard spell list, or they can be unusual spells that the sorcerer has gained some understanding of through study.

Upon reaching 4th level, and at every even-numbered sorcerer level after that (6th, 8th, and so on), a sorcerer can choose to learn a new spell in place of one she already knows. In effect, the sorcerer loses the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spell's level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged. A sorcerer may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that she gains new spells known for the level.

Unlike a wizard or a cleric, a sorcerer need not prepare her spells in advance. She can cast any spell she knows at any time, assuming she has not yet used up her spells per day for that spell level.

Bloodline: Each sorcerer has a source of magic somewhere in her heritage that grants her spells, bonus feats, an additional class skill, and other special abilities. This source can represent a blood relation or an extreme event involving a creature somewhere in the family's past. For example, a sorcerer might have a dragon as a distant relative or her grandfather might have signed a terrible contract with a devil. Regardless of the source, this influence manifests in a number of ways as the sorcerer gains levels. A sorcerer must pick one bloodline upon taking her first level of sorcerer. Once made, this choice cannot be changed.

At 3rd level, and every two levels thereafter, a sorcerer learns an additional spell, derived from her bloodline. These spells are in addition to the number of spells given on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. These spells cannot be exchanged for different spells at higher levels.

At 7th level, and every six levels thereafter, a sorcerer receives one bonus feat, chosen from a list specific to each bloodline. The sorcerer must meet the prerequisites for these bonus feats.

Quote:
Benefit: Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.


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It's granting you a singular power from a bloodline. It doesn't state that it's granting you the Bloodline class feature.

As I said, I don't really think that's relevant to the discussion, because the robe doesn't state it relies on the class feature, so I won't be commenting along this line further.


Xaratherus wrote:

It's granting you a singular power from a bloodline. It doesn't state that it's granting you the Bloodline class feature.

As I said, I don't really think that's relevant to the discussion, because the robe doesn't state it relies on the class feature, so I won't be commenting along this line further.

It grants you the 1st level bloodline power class feature. Which is even listed explicitly in the sorcerer class table.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Xaratherus wrote:

It's granting you a singular power from a bloodline. It doesn't state that it's granting you the Bloodline class feature.

As I said, I don't really think that's relevant to the discussion, because the robe doesn't state it relies on the class feature, so I won't be commenting along this line further.

I agree, it's a bad line. Especially since the robe only buffs the specific thing the feat is giving you (the bloodline power, not the entire bloodline).

Sovereign Court

Diego Rossi wrote:
Illeist wrote:
To those of you who say that it does nothing for non-sorcerers: what if someone makes the DC 21 UMD check to emulate the bloodline class feature?

That UMD check convince the item you have a class feature, it not giver it to you.

PRD wrote:
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

So you convince the item you have the class feature, it activate and find nothing to affect.

End result, nothing happen.

BTW, it is a DC 20 check.

Just a quick nitpick: it's DC 21, as you are mimicking the abilities of a 1st level sorcerer, not a 0th level sorcerer. Also, you let it meet the one qualification that eldritch heritage doesn't give you (namely, actually being a sorcerer).


"When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching pulls itself apart and reweaves to match her particular sorcerer bloodline. The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects."

Again I fail to see how the first sentence correlates with the second. RAW the sorcerer just gets a cool cosmetic change to the robes while anyone else who found it has to live with it being the bloodline of poop elementals instead of his super cool orc bloodline.


For the record umd doesn't let you pretend to be another class. So if the item required you to be a sorcerer there is no way to fool it. I do not think the robe works for non sorcerers.


Scavion wrote:

"When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching pulls itself apart and reweaves to match her particular sorcerer bloodline. The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects."

Again I fail to see how the first sentence correlates with the second. RAW the sorcerer just gets a cool cosmetic change to the robes while anyone else who found it has to live with it being the bloodline of poop elementals instead of his super cool orc bloodline.

So then you believe that if a restaurant has a sign up that says, "We support our troops! Come in and get a 15% discount on your meal!" that if you walk in, and you are not a member of the military, they'll still give you the 15% discount?

I don't. But that's the exact logic that you're using in your argument - you're stating that the first sentence bears no relationship to the second, and therefore is not setting a requirement for the second.

And this is the same sort of structure - the first sentence sets the subject and requirements of the phrases that follow.


Diego Rossi wrote:
Illeist wrote:
To those of you who say that it does nothing for non-sorcerers: what if someone makes the DC 21 UMD check to emulate the bloodline class feature?

That UMD check convince the item you have a class feature, it not giver it to you.

PRD wrote:
Emulate a Class Feature: Sometimes you need to use a class feature to activate a magic item. In this case, your effective level in the emulated class equals your Use Magic Device check result minus 20. This skill does not let you actually use the class feature of another class. It just lets you activate items as if you had that class feature. If the class whose feature you are emulating has an alignment requirement, you must meet it, either honestly or by emulating an appropriate alignment with a separate Use Magic Device check (see above).

So you convince the item you have the class feature, it activate and find nothing to affect.

End result, nothing happen.

BTW, it is a DC 20 check.

The robe of arcane heritage never says you need the class feature. You need the class in order to activate the ability, at which point it increases the effectiveness of your bloodline powers (not "bloodline class feature").


Xaratherus wrote:
Scavion wrote:

"When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching pulls itself apart and reweaves to match her particular sorcerer bloodline. The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects."

Again I fail to see how the first sentence correlates with the second. RAW the sorcerer just gets a cool cosmetic change to the robes while anyone else who found it has to live with it being the bloodline of poop elementals instead of his super cool orc bloodline.

So then you believe that if a restaurant has a sign up that says, "We support our troops! Come in and get a 15% discount on your meal!" that if you walk in, and you are not a member of the military, they'll still give you the 15% discount?

I don't. But that's the exact logic that you're using in your argument - you're stating that the first sentence bears no relationship to the second, and therefore is not setting a requirement for the second.

And this is the same sort of structure - the first sentence sets the subject and requirements of the phrases that follow.

Exactly. Similarly, if a person successfully fools the restaurant into believing that they were in the military, that person, in addition to being a jerk, would get the 15% discount.


blahpers wrote:
The robe of arcane heritage never says you need the class feature. You need the class in order to activate the ability, at which point it increases the effectiveness of your bloodline powers (not "bloodline class feature").

This is why I haven't responded further along that line of discussion, because it's really irrelevant to the topic at hand. :)


Xaratherus wrote:
Scavion wrote:

"When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching pulls itself apart and reweaves to match her particular sorcerer bloodline. The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects."

Again I fail to see how the first sentence correlates with the second. RAW the sorcerer just gets a cool cosmetic change to the robes while anyone else who found it has to live with it being the bloodline of poop elementals instead of his super cool orc bloodline.

So then you believe that if a restaurant has a sign up that says, "We support our troops! Come in and get a 15% discount on your meal!" that if you walk in, and you are not a member of the military, they'll still give you the 15% discount?

I don't. But that's the exact logic that you're using in your argument - you're stating that the first sentence bears no relationship to the second, and therefore is not setting a requirement for the second.

And this is the same sort of structure - the first sentence sets the subject and requirements of the phrases that follow.

As that is a real world scenario and not a game completely dependent upon the interpretation of the rules which we try to interpret as closely to what the developers intended, I see the lack of relevancy. Give me some time and I can come up with a bunch of different effects that have a specific effect for one class, and then a general effect for everybody, which is what I'm reading for Robe of Arcane Heritage

EDIT: I'll also like to point out that the Robe of Arcane Heritage came out after the Eldritch Heritage feat so I could definitely believe that they left it intentionally open ended as to allow people to benefit from it. I would also like to hope that the developers actually take the time and think, "Oh hey we should probably see whom this item benefits, especially since we just made a feat that gives out sorcerer bloodline powers."


blahpers wrote:
Xaratherus wrote:
Scavion wrote:

"When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching pulls itself apart and reweaves to match her particular sorcerer bloodline. The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects."

Again I fail to see how the first sentence correlates with the second. RAW the sorcerer just gets a cool cosmetic change to the robes while anyone else who found it has to live with it being the bloodline of poop elementals instead of his super cool orc bloodline.

So then you believe that if a restaurant has a sign up that says, "We support our troops! Come in and get a 15% discount on your meal!" that if you walk in, and you are not a member of the military, they'll still give you the 15% discount?

I don't. But that's the exact logic that you're using in your argument - you're stating that the first sentence bears no relationship to the second, and therefore is not setting a requirement for the second.

And this is the same sort of structure - the first sentence sets the subject and requirements of the phrases that follow.

Exactly. Similarly, if a person successfully fools the restaurant into believing that they were in the military, that person, in addition to being a jerk, would get the 15% discount.

That is not at all how it reads. It reads that they (a not troop) support the troops. It also says come in and get a 15% discount. Presumably I a non-troop am getting said discount for coming in to said restaurant because I support troops by supporting that restaurant.

Its pretty clear that the robes work for non-sorcerers based on the reading, a non-sorcerer just does not get the reweave. After all one merely needs to be the "wearer" to increase effective Sorcerer level.


Scavion wrote:
As that is a real world scenario and not a game completely dependent upon the interpretation of the rules which we try to interpret as closely to what the developers intended, I see the lack of relevancy.

Because the rules are written based on the grammar structure of the language, and the rules of that grammar structure are completely relevant to meaning of the rules?

Seriously, you're going to argue that because this is rules of the game you can ignore how grammar functions? Then we have no basis for discussion. The rules are written in English; English has certain grammatical rules; thus, those grammatical rules are wholly applicable, and to toss them out because you find it inconvenient is patently ridiculous.

Anzyr wrote:

That is not at all how it reads. It reads that they (a not troop) support the troops. It also says come in and get a 15% discount. Presumably I a non-troop am getting said discount for coming in to said restaurant because I support troops by supporting that restaurant.

Its pretty clear that the robes work for non-sorcerers based on the reading, a non-sorcerer just does not get the reweave. After all one merely needs to be the "wearer" to increase effective Sorcerer level.

No, it reads that the restaurant supports the military, and that because they support the military, they give members of the military a 15% discount. There are at least 3 restaurants that I know of here in Phoenix, and I've visited numerous others that have similar signs, and I can greatly assure you that's exactly how it works. Reading it the way you are reading it is 1) grammatically incorrect, and 2) not borne out by real-world experience.


Xaratherus wrote:
Scavion wrote:
As that is a real world scenario and not a game completely dependent upon the interpretation of the rules which we try to interpret as closely to what the developers intended, I see the lack of relevancy.

Because the rules are written based on the grammar structure of the language, and the rules of that grammar structure are completely relevant to meaning of the rules?

Seriously, you're going to argue that because this is rules of the game you can ignore how grammar functions? Then we have no basis for discussion. The rules are written in English; English has certain grammatical rules; thus, those grammatical rules are wholly applicable, and to toss them out because you find it inconvenient is patently ridiculous.

I tried the same argument your making in another thread and was rebuffed. So yes, I've thrown out grammatical rules as being an intrinsic method of deciphering RAW.


Scavion wrote:
Xaratherus wrote:
Scavion wrote:
As that is a real world scenario and not a game completely dependent upon the interpretation of the rules which we try to interpret as closely to what the developers intended, I see the lack of relevancy.

Because the rules are written based on the grammar structure of the language, and the rules of that grammar structure are completely relevant to meaning of the rules?

Seriously, you're going to argue that because this is rules of the game you can ignore how grammar functions? Then we have no basis for discussion. The rules are written in English; English has certain grammatical rules; thus, those grammatical rules are wholly applicable, and to toss them out because you find it inconvenient is patently ridiculous.

I tried the same argument your making in another thread and was rebuffed. So yes, I've thrown out grammatical rules as being an intrinsic method of deciphering RAW.

Then you listened to people who were wrong. Plain and simple.

Now, I've seen numerous people argue grammar to prove something about RAW and they were using the rules of grammar incorrectly - and they've been called on it. I'm not saying that's true in your case.

But if you cannot interpret RAW using the rules of the English language, then we should burn all our books and never play again because we have no basis for interpreting the rules at all.

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Scavion wrote:
I'll also like to point out that the Robe of Arcane Heritage came out after the Eldritch Heritage feat so I could definitely believe that they left it intentionally open ended as to allow people to benefit from it. I would also like to hope that the developers actually take the time and think, "Oh hey we should probably see whom this item benefits, especially since we just made a feat that gives out sorcerer bloodline powers."

This is untrue. The robes came out in the APG and the feat Eldritch Heritage came out in UM later. So the robes would not have been designed with the feat in mind.


ryric wrote:
Scavion wrote:
I'll also like to point out that the Robe of Arcane Heritage came out after the Eldritch Heritage feat so I could definitely believe that they left it intentionally open ended as to allow people to benefit from it. I would also like to hope that the developers actually take the time and think, "Oh hey we should probably see whom this item benefits, especially since we just made a feat that gives out sorcerer bloodline powers."
This is untrue. The robes came out in the APG and the feat Eldritch Heritage came out in UM later. So the robes would not have been designed with the feat in mind.

The robes came out in Ultimate Equipment I believe, otherwise its been cited improperly where I'm referencing it.

My apologies you are correct, but I found something interesting in that regard.

In fact the 2nd printing of the APG makes no mentions of anything happening when a sorcerer wears it, only that it changes to suit the sorcerer bloodline of the wearer.


Xaratherus wrote:
Scavion wrote:
As that is a real world scenario and not a game completely dependent upon the interpretation of the rules which we try to interpret as closely to what the developers intended, I see the lack of relevancy.

Because the rules are written based on the grammar structure of the language, and the rules of that grammar structure are completely relevant to meaning of the rules?

Seriously, you're going to argue that because this is rules of the game you can ignore how grammar functions? Then we have no basis for discussion. The rules are written in English; English has certain grammatical rules; thus, those grammatical rules are wholly applicable, and to toss them out because you find it inconvenient is patently ridiculous.

Anzyr wrote:

That is not at all how it reads. It reads that they (a not troop) support the troops. It also says come in and get a 15% discount. Presumably I a non-troop am getting said discount for coming in to said restaurant because I support troops by supporting that restaurant.

Its pretty clear that the robes work for non-sorcerers based on the reading, a non-sorcerer just does not get the reweave. After all one merely needs to be the "wearer" to increase effective Sorcerer level.

No, it reads that the restaurant supports the military, and that because they support the military, they give members of the military a 15% discount. There are at least 3 restaurants that I know of here in Phoenix, and I've visited numerous others that have similar signs, and I can greatly assure you that's exactly how it works. Reading it the way you are reading it is 1) grammatically incorrect, and 2) not borne out by real-world experience.

They are being grammatically incorrect, which is fine since they are posting a sign not writing a law or rule. So if your real-world experience is restaurants signs... I recommend finding better experience.

The point is of course moot, since the robes explicitly give a wearer the increase in effective sorcerer level.

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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

As someone else mentioned, this brings up another question. If you have 1 level of sorcerer, and a Robe of Arcane Heritage, and eldritch heritage (insert bloodline here), would you get a +4 to your sorcerer level, effective sorcerer level, or both?

As to RAW, it seems, IMO, increases your effective sorcerer level, when a sorcerer dons the robes, not when an "effective" sorcerer dons the robes. Now, I'd allow it, but what would be allowed is irrelevant in RAW conversations.


ArmouredMonk13 wrote:

As someone else mentioned, this brings up another question. If you have 1 level of sorcerer, and a Robe of Arcane Heritage, and eldritch heritage (insert bloodline here), would you get a +4 to your sorcerer level, effective sorcerer level, or both?

As to RAW, it seems, IMO, increases your effective sorcerer level, when a sorcerer dons the robes, not when an "effective" sorcerer dons the robes. Now, I'd allow it, but what would be allowed is irrelevant in RAW conversations.

So it increases your effective sorcerer level not your effective sorcerer level. That is hilarious.


Anzyr wrote:

They are being grammatically incorrect, which is fine since they are posting a sign not writing a law or rule. So if your real-world experience is restaurants signs... I recommend finding better experience.

The point is of course moot, since the robes explicitly give a wearer the increase in...

Grammatically and contextually, an earlier phrase in a passage sets the contextual subject of the phrases that follow, unless the latter phrases explicitly change the subject.

A sign that mentions "the military" is, under all proper grammatical rules, understood to modify\restrict and apply to latter phrases unless the phrase specifically states otherwise. A magic item that indicates "When worn by a sorcerer..." grammatically and contextually indicates that what follows applies when worn by a sorcerer.

If it was intended to apply to non-sorcerers, then the grammar of the item is, in fact, grammatically incorrect, because they have failed to explicitly call out a change in contextual subject.


No it does not. It specifically calls out in the item that it's powers only work when an actual Sorcerer puts on the robe. While you can UMD features you cannot UMD an entire class in total from top to bottom.

Quote:
When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching pulls itself apart and reweaves to match her particular sorcerer bloodline

It is clear and unambiguous that the power as written is to affect an actual Sorcerer. Not someone with some feats that allow access to limited sorcerer class features but a full actual Sorcerer. Otherwise the wording above would have said only bloodline not the entire class.

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