Thanks for looking at this for me i have a rules question that i just saw and have questions about.
On page 209 of the core rule book.
Instantaneous effects:
Two or more spells with instantaneous duration work cumulatively when they effect the same target.
okay her is my question. if a spell caster where to cast a fireball and then cast a quicken fireball does the damage stack and only get counted once against fire resistance 20 for example? or does the fire resistance count against both fireball spells?
It would count against each, the same way DR would affect each of several attacks.
What they're contrasting with is things which have ongoing duration, in which case usually if you are affected by two of the same spell, they don't stack, they just overlap.
Two distinct attacks would have to deal with the resistance for each attack barring a "special" rule or exception (like the feat clustered shot).
Thank you that is what I needed to know.
but out of curiosity what spells have a instantaneous duration with an ongoing effect? I don't recall seeing any.
Bestow Curse, Geas/Quest, etc.
um no bestow curse has a duration of permanent and geas/quest hs a duration of 1 day/level or until discharged. so those don't count.
the line on page 209 say instantaneous DURATION.
Fireball has a duration of instant.
I still can't find a instance of a spell with an instant duration with any kind of ongoing effect.
In the 3.5 players handbook page 172 an example is given that says the target of 2 fireballs would save vs both and takes damage from each according to the save but there is no mention of weather the damage would be added together for resistance purposes or not.
but the way it reads and the way it reads on page 209 of the pathfinder core rule book I am starting to think that yes while the save would be separate the damage would in fact be added together for resistances purposes for that round.
can some one point me to a page or ruling that says otherwise?
Your example doesn't cause the attacks to stack, you have two seperate actions occuring very close in time during the round. A standard action, then a completely seperate swift action.
My guess would be that, the clause would come into play when something like a contingency spell occurs. Damage enough to kill you and a contingent heal going off. If the damage occured first you could die and the heal would be wasted. But seeing as the effects occur cumulatively, the contingent heal would occur at the same time so you don't "die" from the damage before the heal occurs.
Steven Morgan wrote: um no bestow curse has a duration of permanent and geas/quest hs a duration of 1 day/level or until discharged. so those don't count.
the line on page 209 say instantaneous DURATION.
Fireball has a duration of instant.
I still can't find a instance of a spell with an instant duration with any kind of ongoing effect.
In the 3.5 players handbook page 172 an example is given that says the target of 2 fireballs would save vs both and takes damage from each according to the save but there is no mention of weather the damage would be added together for resistance purposes or not.
but the way it reads and the way it reads on page 209 of the pathfinder core rule book I am starting to think that yes while the save would be separate the damage would in fact be added together for resistances purposes for that round.
can some one point me to a page or ruling that says otherwise?
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/masterworkTransform ation.html#_masterwork-transformation
that is the only permanent effect instantaneous effect spell I know of.
Steven Morgan wrote:
but out of curiosity what spells have a instantaneous duration with an ongoing effect? I don't recall seeing any.
Cure spells. Instantaneous duration, but the hit point gain is ongoing (until damaged again).
Most direct damage spells (Magic Missile, Fireball, Lightning Bolt) as well. Instantaneous duration, but the damage remains until healed.
The Stacking rules for "Same effect, different strength" could be read to make you immune to any of these spells once affected by them once (or at least only healing/taking damage in excess of the original amount healed/inflicted). That is why this rule is called out.
The awaken spell.
The mythic version of giant vermin.
Almost every healing spell.
awaken, stone to flesh, lots of wordspells, healing spells, damage spells, wall of iron, wall of stone, remove curse, remove blindness/deafness, neutralize poison, poison, fabricate.
ok I guess no one understands the question.. An on going effect is defined as something that continues to happen one round after another. all of the listed spells above have instant duration with a permanent effect healing is not ongoing you are not being healed every round it is permanent until damaged again. standard damage spells don't have an on going effect either it done with not on going. the Mythic fireball has an on going effect it does 2d6 damage every round to a target that failed its save.
I was wondering why On page 209 of the core rule book. it says this.
Instantaneous effects:
Two or more spells with instantaneous duration work cumulatively when they effect the same target.
No one has been able to give me a clear answer. I was initially using fireball as an example because a standard fireball is a instant duration spell with no ongoing effect. and i wanted to know if because of that line a single target who would have to save vs 2 fireballs would only get to have his fire resistance once because of that line. and if not what would it refer to?
The original question has already been answered. Fire resistance applies for each spell.
The rest of the question has also been answered. If you cast multiple instantaneous spells, the latter does not overlap with the former, unlike spells with a duration, in which they overlap.
If you fireball an owlbear, it takes damage. If you then fireball it again, it takes more damage rather than simply overlapping the original fireball.
Similarly, if you cast an instantaneous transmutation spell on something twice the first applies, then the second applies to the result of the first. If the spells were not instantaneous, you would only apply whichever effect is higher during any moment within the duration of both effects (i.e., they overlap but do not accumulate).
Edited for further clarification.
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Similarly, if you cast an instantaneous transmutation spell on something twice the first applies, then the second applies to the result of the first. If the spells were not instantaneous, you would only apply whichever effect is higher during any moment within the duration of both effects (i.e., they overlap but do not accumulate).
but that is not what it says in that line it says cumulative. that means accumulate as in gets bigger.
I am sorry but I think you are wrong.
Steven Morgan wrote: Similarly, if you cast an instantaneous transmutation spell on something twice the first applies, then the second applies to the result of the first. If the spells were not instantaneous, you would only apply whichever effect is higher during any moment within the duration of both effects (i.e., they overlap but do not accumulate).
but that is not what it says in that line it says cumulative. that means accumulate as in gets bigger.
I am sorry but I think you are wrong.
Wrong about what?
Could you be more specific about what exactly you are interpreting "cumulative" to mean? I think you may be right as a point of extremely picky historical language usage, but I think "cumulative" has gotten stretched to mean "added together" since then.
Okay, to clarify.
The word "cumulative" has another sense, now rarely used (though Gygax loved it), for things which accelerate in a particular way.
If something does one point of damage per round, and you have it for five rounds, you take five points of damage.
If something does one point of damage per round, cumulative, and you have it for five rounds, you take fifteen: One on the first, two on the second, three on the third, and so on.
So I think the issue here is that someone might interperet "cumulatively" to mean that each spell's effects are re-applied with each new spell. But that's not what it means in this context; it's just being used to mean "they are each applied independently, and aren't subject to overlapping rules".
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