Impossible to detect invisible incorporeal creature?


Rules Questions


Question 1:
If you have the ability to make yourself invisible and also incorporeal, are there any way to detect you?

-Invisibility makes you immune to visual detection

-An incorporeal creature moves silently and cannot be heard with Perception checks if it doesn't wish to be.
-Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures.

So what's left? See invisibility, True Sight, and Invisibility purge. But is there any other way to detect you?

Question 2: Can you use touch spells on incorporeal creatures? Can incorporeal creatures with spellcasting ability use touch spells on self?

Question 3: Are there any limitations on what spells a caster with Shadow Projection can cast on himself beforehand? Invis, mage armor, shield, spells that boosts charisma or deflection bonuses? Armor bonuses are of course not working, and I'm assuming transmutation effects are pointless too. Anything else?


  1. Detect Magic, Detect Evil, etc. - they can't see you, but they can see your aura. Also: smoke, sawdust, puddles, flour, etc. - they can't see you, but they can see disturbances in the environment you might create.
  2. Sure, if you have a ghost-touch weapon to touch with. And incorporeal creatures can harm other incorporeal creatures, so it stands to reason they can touch themselves too.
  3. Since Shadow Projection uses your actual shadow, only spells that affect your shadow can be "pre-casted". I'm guessing that's going to be a very short list, though Invisibility should be on it.


You can't cast a touch spell through A ghost touch weapon, unless you have spellstrike, because the touch spell would instantly discharge before the touch attack attempt.


VRMH wrote:
  1. Detect Magic, Detect Evil, etc. - they can't see you, but they can see your aura. Also: smoke, sawdust, puddles, flour, etc. - they can't see you, but they can see disturbances in the environment you might create.
  2. Sure, if you have a ghost-touch weapon to touch with. And incorporeal creatures can harm other incorporeal creatures, so it stands to reason they can touch themselves too.
  3. Since Shadow Projection uses your actual shadow, only spells that affect your shadow can be "pre-casted". I'm guessing that's going to be a very short list, though Invisibility should be on it.

How does a creature that moves through matter as if it wasn't there be affected by sawdust? Unless this is magical sawdust it should just go straight through him. You make no sound at all, probably not even affecting the wind or rippling the water.

Incorporeal touching incorporeal sounds reasonable.

The last one I'm not sure of - It may be more balanced, but are you even sure invisibility affects your shadow? It just makes light go around you, thus no shadow is created at all, not affecting your shadow per see.


Snow_Tiger wrote:
You can't cast a touch spell through A ghost touch weapon, unless you have spellstrike, because the touch spell would instantly discharge before the touch attack attempt.

Why would it? Touch spell aren't instantaneously discharged into your clothes either, nor into the ground you stand on.

Friend of the Dork wrote:
How does a creature that moves through matter as if it wasn't there be affected by sawdust? Unless this is magical sawdust it should just go straight through him. You make no sound at all, probably not even affecting the wind or rippling the water.

You're right, that really shouldn't work at all - I was listing the usual anti-invisibility methods without much thought. My bad.

Quote:
are you even sure invisibility affects your shadow? It just makes light go around you, thus no shadow is created at all, not affecting your shadow per see.

Actually, the game doesn't specify how invisibility works, just that you are invisible. And I'd be rather annoyed if the GM says that while I'm invisible, my shadow isn't. So I figure your shadow can become invisible.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

How would glitterdust function if the invisible incorporeal target is in the area of effect ? By RAW I think it functions but I'm not sure.

EDIT:

Glossary wrote:
"Incorporeal creatures are often invisible. Scent, Blind-Fight, and blindsight don't help creatures find or attack invisible, incorporeal creatures, but Perception checks can help."

So perception is still somehow capable of detecting SOMEthing about invisible incorporeal creatures.


SlimGauge wrote:

How would glitterdust function if the invisible incorporeal target is in the area of effect ? By RAW I think it functions but I'm not sure.

I think so too.

Ordinarily I wouldn't mince words, but in this case the spell specifically states that "all within the area are covered by the dust," that it "covers everyone and everything" in the area.

That would seem to include incorporeals.


VRMH wrote:
Snow_Tiger wrote:
You can't cast a touch spell through A ghost touch weapon, unless you have spellstrike, because the touch spell would instantly discharge before the touch attack attempt.

Why would it? Touch spell aren't instantaneously discharged into your clothes either, nor into the ground you stand on.

It's in the section about holding a charge. It says something like: if you specifically choose to touch something, or hold a weapon, while holding a spell that normally grants you a free action to touch, the spell instantaneously discharges on the touched object.

A text in the magus spellstrike specifically allows this (as if, if you aren't a magus of atleast 2nd level, then you don't have this capability

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Ectoplasmic Glitterdust would cover any issues, but I am not sure if it is needed.


Bruunwald wrote:
SlimGauge wrote:

How would glitterdust function if the invisible incorporeal target is in the area of effect ? By RAW I think it functions but I'm not sure.

I think so too.

Ordinarily I wouldn't mince words, but in this case the spell specifically states that "all within the area are covered by the dust," that it "covers everyone and everything" in the area.

That would seem to include incorporeals.

Glitterdust would have a 50% chance of working normally. Basically the same as any other spell cast on an incorporeal creature.

Likewise, touch spells would deal half-damage, or have a 50% chance of working if non-damaging.


Friend of the Dork wrote:

Question 1:

If you have the ability to make yourself invisible and also incorporeal, are there any way to detect you?

-Invisibility makes you immune to visual detection

Not really. It just adds +20 to the DC to localize you. Think on it like Predator, a distortion in the air, or whatever you like, but it gives you +20 to Perception DC, that's all. It's DC 40 to perceive an immobile invisible target (which does not make noise because it is immobile)

Quote:


-Nonvisual senses, such as scent and blindsight, are either ineffective or only partly effective with regard to incorporeal creatures.

That depends in the type of blindsight.

Quote:


Question 2: Can you use touch spells on incorporeal creatures? Can incorporeal creatures with spellcasting ability use touch spells on self?

I'd say that you can, with 50% chance of miss like any other spell.

Quote:
Question 3: Are there any limitations on what spells a caster with Shadow Projection can cast on himself beforehand? Invis, mage armor, shield, spells that boosts charisma or deflection bonuses? Armor bonuses are of course not working, and I'm assuming transmutation effects are pointless too. Anything else?

I think you can cast whatever you want beforehand, but some spells aren't going to be very usefull. (like Stoneskin for example). Some of them might be useful for deceiving purpose (like alter self for example)


Glitterdust should work at least 50% as it is from a magical source. Incoporeal creatures are normally not immune to magic. This means Shocking Grasp spell should work on a Shadow or Wraith. Right?

You could argue that since Glitterdust has no SR, it creates a nonmagical substance. However, it is specified tat the dust can not be washed off, which would indicate that there IS magic about.

Besides making incorporeals immune to spells without SR is probably not intended an at least not stated.

BTW as for Shadow Projection spell I am now ruling that spells cast on the body before SP is cast stays with the body and is not on the Shadow. I would allow subsequent casting on the Shadow, but not from the projecting wizard as you can't cast spells as a Shadow. Source:

Creative Director of Paizo, James Jacobs:

Hey James, I was wondering if you could shed some light on how this spell operates (but not too much, given the spell in question!).

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/s/shadow-projection

1. Can you perform verbal and somatic components whilst a shadow?
2. Can you access your feats and use spell-like or supernatural abilities whilst you are a shadow?
3. Can you even speak whilst you are a shadow?
4.Do you use your own stats, only your mental stats or none of your own stats when you are a shadow?

The answer to all these questions is more or less no. When you cast this spell, you basically "turn off" your character and "turn on" a shadow, as detailed in the Bestiary. You'd still use your own skills (not modified by the shadow's stats) and your own hit points, but the rest is pretty much "just use the shadow stat block." It's meant to mostly be a scouting out an area spell first and a fighting spell second.


I'd like to amend what I've said earlier, because I forgot about the 50% rule.

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