Ratfolk + Swarming = Flank at range?

[ericpants]

Can two Ratfolk with the swarming racial trait flank at range? Would this provide sneak attack damage at range?

[Kahn Zordlon]

swarming:

Spoiler:

Ratfolk are used to living and fighting communally, and are adept at swarming foes for their own gain and their foes' detriment. Up to two ratfolk can share the same square at the same time. If two ratfolk in the same square attack the same foe, they are considered to be flanking that foe as if they were in two opposite squares.

I don't see anything that says no. You can't flank at range though. Hopefully the description will help another figure it out.

[Cheapy]

Flanking is melee only.

[SlimGauge]

Probably not.

PRD wrote:

Swarming: Ratfolk are used to living and fighting communally, and are adept at swarming foes for their own gain and their foes' detriment. Up to two ratfolk can share the same square at the same time. If two ratfolk in the same square attack the same foe, they are considered to be flanking that foe as if they were in two opposite squares.

The racial trait states flanking as if they were in two opposite squares.

PRD wrote:

Flanking: When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.

The limiter is "When making a melee attack..."

[James Risner]

Cheapy wrote:

Flanking is melee only.

That is intent and that is what most of us read when we read Swarming ability.

But the OP is reading that regardless of where the rats are, they "appear" to be on opposite sides of the opponent even if not in melee threatening range. Therefore they are "virtually flanking".

I don't agree with the OP. I will run a game believing that you must be in melee range of the opponent to do this. But some other DM is free to rule otherwise.

[James Risner]

SlimGauge wrote:

Flanking: When making a melee attack

Ok I figured the OP had scoured the book and not found anything to reject it. Instead he didn't look apparently.

Case closed. Can't swarm unless in melee of opponent.

[ericpants]

I did look at flanking. I also looked at the word considered. Then I wondered if it matters if flanking states melee attack, using a whip, or standing on one foot hopping up and down while doing the hokey pokey since you are considered doing all of that.

[LoneKnave]

"An enemy being flanked" exists for Ranged attacks, you just usually do not gain any benefits from it.

Example

So by RAW, two ratfolk archers standing in the same square would be flanking the target they attack, they'd just get no benefit from it if they don't have any feats or class features building off of it.

Probably not RAI, and may lead to some broken stuff if two ratfolk rogues start backstabbing with no way for the target to move out of flanking, but the idea of ratfolk rogues standing on each others shoulders and firing double crossbows at everything sounds hilarious and somewhat in theme.

[Sniggevert]

LoneKnave wrote:

"An enemy being flanked" exists for Ranged attacks, you just usually do not gain any benefits from it.

Example

So by RAW, two ratfolk archers standing in the same square would be flanking the target they attack, they'd just get no benefit from it if they don't have any feats or class features building off of it.

Probably not RAI, and may lead to some broken stuff if two ratfolk rogues start backstabbing with no way for the target to move out of flanking, but the idea of ratfolk rogues standing on each others shoulders and firing double crossbows at everything sounds hilarious and somewhat in theme.

In your example, the person at range ISN'T one of the flankers. However, only one of the allies flanking the target being shot has to have that teamwork feat (as well as the ranged attacker) to utilize it.

RAW, you need to be making a melee attack to be counted as flanking. Check out the APG FAQ on the Gang Up feat.

[Cheapy]

Check out this FAQ.

Quote:

Gang Up: Does this feat (page 161) allow you to flank a foe with ranged weapons?

The Gang Up feat allows you to count as flanking so long as two of your allies are threatening your opponent. The feat makes no mention of ranged attacks being included, and since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, ranged attacks do not benefit from this feat. (JMB, 8/13/10)

—Jason Bulmahn, 08/13/10

Does Swarming make mention of ranged attacks being included?

[ericpants]

Cheapy wrote:

Check out this FAQ.

Quote:

Gang Up: Does this feat (page 161) allow you to flank a foe with ranged weapons?

The Gang Up feat allows you to count as flanking so long as two of your allies are threatening your opponent. The feat makes no mention of ranged attacks being included, and since flanking specifically refers to melee attacks, ranged attacks do not benefit from this feat. (JMB, 8/13/10)

—Jason Bulmahn, 08/13/10

Does Swarming make mention of ranged attacks being included?

Just found it as well. Thank you.

[ericpants]

James Risner wrote:

Cheapy wrote:

Flanking is melee only.

That is intent and that is what most of us read when we read Swarming ability.

But the OP is reading that regardless of where the rats are, they "appear" to be on opposite sides of the opponent even if not in melee threatening range. Therefore they are "virtually flanking".

I don't agree with the OP. I will run a game believing that you must be in melee range of the opponent to do this. But some other DM is free to rule otherwise.

How do you disagree with a question? Regarding your following post, this is the rules section. I did look through the book. No need for snide remarks.

[James Risner]

ericpants wrote:

How do you disagree with a question?

I took your OP as asserting you believed this allowed you to flank (and get the bonus of flanking) with ranged because of the bias in the question.

You continued to assert this position until the FAQ on Gang Up was revealed. I didn't mean to be snide, I took it to mean you didn't read flanking. It turns out you may have and simply ignored the rule contrary to your view.