Hello board peoples!
I have been stewing over a project for a while and I am hoping to get some input from the wider community. I have run several zombie apocalypse themed games in the past in both fantasy and modern settings. I personally love the genre. None of the games has worked out in the long term, though each has been a learning experience for me. I'm thinking of writing an adventure path using the PF rules to explore this kind of scenario. While in the planning stages I've come across a dilemma. Who are the PCs?
I know that it will be set in a small medieval fantasy island, a sort of combination of France and England in feudal times, roughly the size of the United Kingdom. The kingdom will be united under a single good, universal faith similar to Mitra in Way of the Wicked.
I know there will be a giant planet sized horde of undead that float endlessly through the galaxy devouring all life on any planets they come across, led by godlike dracoliches.
What I don't know is whether the players will be the "good guys" the "bad guys" or something inbetween. I'd like to get people's opinions on what would be the most fun to play.
1) Play normal, living characters with non-evil alignments resisting the takeover of their planet by the Ravage.
2) Start as normal people, and get turned into undead, then be full of angst. Be given strong reasons to fight against the undead invaders.
3) Play intelligent undead (zombie lords, and/or skeletal champions), bent on conquering and converting the planet into undeath.
If you would be interested in playing or purchasing this type of product, please share your thoughts with me on which one would be the most interesting. I'd prefer to not just see "They all sound cool" thirty times though, try to be opinionated please ;)
In my opinion, #1 would get you the most bites.
However, if #3 came with a whole host of new undead player options and information (a la Libris Mortis), I think that would have the potential to be an even bigger hit than #1.
#2, I see that not necessarily as its own standalone idea, but rather something that some players might want to roll up in with #1 (a party of mostly normal characters, and perhaps one or two succumb to the undead they fight, but refuse to join in mind what they have in body.
#1 is pretty standard for most games, which is pretty okay, but isn't my favourite by far, while #3 is a game that encourages all straight evil characters, which would be fun for hack and slash, but pretty much limits your opportunities for a varied and interesting game. It seems like there wouldn't be a lot of opportunities for diplomacy or stealth or mystery.
#2 is by far my favourite - whether you start as normal people or it starts right when you awaken as Undead, there's a lot of Roleplay opportunity there, and there are a ton of obstacles for you to conquer regularly - whether it's trying to convince a town of what's coming, while you yourself are an abomination - or trying to find the reason all this is happening. Working against a massive undead would require more thinking on the player's part than being apart of that army as in #3.
(If it did end up being #2 or #3, I'd love to help to stat out undead player races for this, even if I didn't get to play in it, both because that's my idea of fun, and because I'd be interested in seeing it happen.)
So that's kinda two votes for #2 so far.
Would it be uninteresting to just get the chance to play the undead races that are already there? Skeleton champions or zombie lords seem like the only good ones for low level play though. I could see possibly making some kind of incorporeal or pseudo incorporeal version of an intelligent low level undead. I would base it on the ectoplasmic dudes in Carrion Crown.
I'll vote for 1. While I often play neutral characters, I don't have any interest in ever playing the bad guy. I think more people play RPGs to play an idealized hero.
Possibly 2 might have some value, but only if you have some very quirky, nonevil undead (think I...Vampire).
3 is just too out there for me, with no appeal.
It is funny though that there's not already a 'zombie apocalypse' going on in the game already. Given that Ghouls are smart, spread like disease, and and can function just fine in sunlight, I don't see why they are not already infesting the place all over.
I'll vote for 1. While I often play neutral characters, I don't have any interest in ever playing the bad guy. I think more people play RPGs to play an idealized hero.
Possibly 2 might have some value, but only if you have some very quirky, nonevil undead (think I...Vampire).
3 is just too out there for me, with no appeal.
It is funny though that there's not already a 'zombie apocalypse' going on in the game already. Given that Ghouls are smart, spread like disease, and and can function just fine in sunlight, I don't see why they are not already infesting the place all over.
There is a zombie apocalypse going on. There's a peaceful island country of medieval people when suddenly meteors start falling from the sky and disgorging boiling hordes of undead into the kingdom. Just deciding whether it will be a few meteors before the big storm, enough for the good guys to get ready and fight back (#1), a medium amount of meteors (#2) or a devastating amount of meteors (#3).
Also, there is definitely a market for evil campaigns, look how well Way of the Wicked has done. It just has to be done right.
Would it be uninteresting to just get the chance to play the undead races that are already there? Skeleton champions or zombie lords seem like the only good ones for low level play though. I could see possibly making some kind of incorporeal or pseudo incorporeal version of an intelligent low level undead.
I guess you could do that? I'm not really into Racial Hit Dice / Skills / BAB or anything like that. I'd much rather have a few undead races (Skeleton, Ghoul, Ghost, Lich, altered Dhampir, etc) to choose from, as well as having different sizes, and then just take classes as normal.
There is a zombie apocalypse going on. There's a peaceful island country of medieval people when suddenly meteors start falling from the sky and disgorging boiling hordes of undead into the kingdom. Just deciding whether it will be a few meteors before the big storm, enough for the good guys to get ready and fight back (#1), a medium amount of meteors (#2) or a devastating amount of meteors (#3).Also, there is definitely a market for evil campaigns, look how well Way of the Wicked has done. It just has to be done right.
I never said there was no market for evil campaigns, I said there was less market for such. If you're going to try and make a successful product you either better find an unexploited niche (which as you said, evil campaigns are already exploited) or you appeal to the broadest audience. It seems to me you prefer the evil option and are looking for validation.
But then you asked for an opinion, you didn't say I had to argue about it.
Not looking to argue, just responding. Sorry if it came off that way.
Another option I had considered was a scenario where the undead had already won. The players would be members of a tiny human resistance fighting against huge odds, ala the Matrix.
In this case the undead would have landed and crushed the kingdom, converting much of its population into undead. The only humans left are kept in absolute squalor in ghetto-like camps and used as a source of food and pleasure by the undead overlords.
I'd be down for any of the options. Should be a lot of fun. :-)
#1 and #2 are just standard, it's fun to play with and you have plenty of series/tv shows to help you get the idea. I would make the sun a strong ally in that, allowing the humans to recover some ground and make preparations during the day, so when dusk came the mess would begin.
I've read a book from Andre Vianco (Bento - in portuguese) where there was a event called "the damned night", where communications by radio frequency suddenly stopped. Also, half of the population entered a coma state, and would take from couple days to many years in the process of awakening. They awoke as Blessed ones, or as Damned ones (vampires). Of course, not knowing what to expect, the population was easily subdued by the vampires, that spread their plague across the world. Chaos spread.
A few settlements built high walls, high enough so the vampire could not jump through, and with nothing close to them but sand, where the vampires were slower and easily detected. Thing is, the Blessed had a fierce fury to be used against the vampires. Their eyes shinned with a yellow light, they become faster and stronger, could bless water to use against the vampires, and wield swords furiously.
They kept the vampires at bay from many years, surviving only in the protected settlements. But some years later the vampires began to organize themselves, leaded by a powerful commander. Things started to get ugly once again...
Anyway, story short, I'd suggest either you going with #1 and make them special (blessed or chosen or whatever) or going with #3, trying to crush the resistance that now poses a greater threat (in the books the surviving humans manage to launch to the sky a satellite that redirected sunlight on determined spots, helping when the fortress had dire need) to the undead beings.
I'm definitely interested. I have one question that is are you possibly going to start a game and when would that be?
Let me be clear, this is not a recruitment, or potential recruitment.
I am simply soliciting people's opinions.
I kinda like the undead already won thing the more I think about it. Kinda like the rebel alliance in Star Wars. Sure it's somewhat cliche, but I've been gaming for 15 years and I've never played in a setting where most people were evil undead.
There could also be a faction of undead who are pro-human, thus opening the way for undead PCs and allied NPCs. Maybe some of the undead who don't directly rely on human flesh to survive or something. Or just ones who remember their mortal lives vividly.
Paizo canon has all undead as evil. Is that true for this'd world, or are you saying (in #2) that there are some good/neutral undead?
In any event, a world where the undead has already won (or almost) sounds fun. I could see playing either a few ragtag survivors in that world or some free thinking undead.
A challenge in either case is that I suspect such a world would be HIGHLY lethal.
A zombie apocalypse is interesting genre, but for a longer term game it feels like there needs to be at least some possibility and plausibility of "winning". Some ideas to bounce for each of the three variations:
1. The world is lost, but there are others as yet undiscovered by the ravage. The PCs get to enact a huge magical ceremony that opens a portal to another world and (forcibly?) shepard the tattered surviving nations through before closing the portal just in the nick of time (or at least they hope!) Maybe they could ultimately lead a counter attack into the home world where the ravage started and perhaps destroy some magical construct that made it possible for the undead to travel from world to world...
2. I suppose taking down the dracolich might help but it's hard to see how they could stop the hordes of undead unless they perhaps wrest control and take them else where in the multiverse.
3. This has an obvious and probably satisfying winning condition.
I'd personally be alright with a campaign with bleak prospects, where the best we can accomplish is often to survive and make small improvements...though I agree that striving to accomplish more (whether that's a decisive foe against the horde or leading some remaining humans to safety or whatnot) is useful as a long-range vision.
If you're actually looking for commercially viable...I'm also probably in a minority in that regard. (There's a reason that Gamma World[1] is more goofy than gritty. A real post-nuclear apocalyptic world would likely be a place where characters quickly die, often of very un-dramatic things.)
[1] By which I mean the original TSR Gamma World. I haven't read enough about the WotC version to comment, though I suspect it's a similar tone.
Well, if you know going in that all the enemies basically are going to be undead, there's a lot of things you can do to stack the deck in your favor.
I was thinking last night as I was going to sleep that maybe the good guys developed a ritual that can "cure" undead by converting them to running on positive energy. So they would function like living beings in regard to positive/negative energy. Fluff wise, they would be free to act however they want, but they would retain all other features of undeath.
I think the high mortality rate is fine, most of the time you die you'll turn into some kind of undead. As long as one of your allies can turn you into a positive energy undead you can keep playing.
It's also a staple of horror type games to have it be more dangerous and gritty than normal adventures.
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I was also considering rather than an adventure path, just creating a setting that would be good for short one-off undead apocalypse scenarios. It would be maps, a gazetteer for the island. I would have stat blocks for unique/unusual undead of various CRs, organizations both good and wicked on the island. Then give the DM a few common zombie/undead scenarios to run as one offs or short campaigns.
Make it to the CDC..erhm..temple. Make it out of the shopping mall...erm...marketplace alive. Survive until help arrives. Etc..
So that's kinda two votes for #2 so far.
Would it be uninteresting to just get the chance to play the undead races that are already there? Skeleton champions or zombie lords seem like the only good ones for low level play though. I could see possibly making some kind of incorporeal or pseudo incorporeal version of an intelligent low level undead. I would base it on the ectoplasmic dudes in Carrion Crown.
perhaps draugr could add to your stable of undead PCs. the stench might be troublesome though, that'd be the first thing i removed for a PC.
Also, there is definitely a market for evil campaigns, look how well Way of the Wicked has done. It just has to be done right.
I agree!
Another option I had considered was a scenario where the undead had already won. The players would be members of a tiny human resistance fighting against huge odds, ala the Matrix.
In this case the undead would have landed and crushed the kingdom, converting much of its population into undead. The only humans left are kept in absolute squalor in ghetto-like camps and used as a source of food and pleasure by the undead overlords.
THAT idea appeals to me quite a bit.
Well, if you know going in that all the enemies basically are going to be undead, there's a lot of things you can do to stack the deck in your favor.
I was thinking last night as I was going to sleep that maybe the good guys developed a ritual that can "cure" undead by converting them to running on positive energy. So they would function like living beings in regard to positive/negative energy. Fluff wise, they would be free to act however they want, but they would retain all other features of undeath.
I think the high mortality rate is fine, most of the time you die you'll turn into some kind of undead. As long as one of your allies can turn you into a positive energy undead you can keep playing.
It's also a staple of horror type games to have it be more dangerous and gritty than normal adventures.
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I was also considering rather than an adventure path, just creating a setting that would be good for short one-off undead apocalypse scenarios. It would be maps, a gazetteer for the island. I would have stat blocks for unique/unusual undead of various CRs, organizations both good and wicked on the island. Then give the DM a few common zombie/undead scenarios to run as one offs or short campaigns.
Make it to the CDC..erhm..temple. Make it out of the shopping mall...erm...marketplace alive. Survive until help arrives. Etc..
That is also interesting. If it were me, I would make the ritual on-par with the power of the Raise Dead/Resurrection spells, although for flavor I would allow some type of ritual where multiple low level casters could, at significant consequence/backlash to themselves, perform the ritual before they reached the level where a single caster could do so alone without penalty.
Another idea regarding that I have would be to give the positive energy undead folks a penalty to saves regarding becoming negative energy undead again... since they've already traveled the path once, it becomes easier to do so (even though that works against them).
And few things are more fun than playing an undead slayer in an undead slaying campaign. i feel like the undead slayer types dont get enough love in most campaigns.
I think the most interesting option would be to make the players undead, and to create the world of the undead. The living would be barbaric outlyers - preferably guilty of whatever it was that caused the initial necropocalypse (since it sounds like zombies are far from the only available creatures).
Maybe stat out a few undead players races, brew a handful of feats and spells and archetypes that are suitable, and then focus on the fluff of a world where the population is predominantly undead.
As far as what I'd like to play? Just a traditional Walking Dead type zombie apocalypse, where characters have to struggle to survive and deal with each other's crap.
I think that #3 is the best choice for leading a game. While #1 is probably standard. I enjoy the sheer possibilities that #3 offers. You could have it that each Undead Master is secretly plotting to usurp the others, and become the first (or maybe not first) Undead King. They could be sending their agents to try, and gather holy relics from the humans to be used against their rivals. You could have all the PC's start in the same group, or have them start in different groups.
If they started in the same group then they not only have to worry about humans, but other teams of undead will be going after them as well. If they start out on different teams then I think you could have the added roleplaying of people deciding who they can, and can't trust.
After they gather the relics who knows what they could do. Do they report back to their masters, or do they take the relics power for themselves, and try to usurp their masters.
Also on the character creation, and building side. You probably have already thought about this, but if you do have an undead campaign you'll have to adjust the point buy, becuase of none of the undead will have CON scores.
I would be most interested in #2 mostly because I have long harbored a wish to finally play an undead gunslinger out for revenge *Cue epic guitar solo*. Also it would be an interesting reversal of a few tropes. Especially if we do actually start off as mook zombies and eventually return to sentience and seek revenge.
I am generally averse to specifically 'evil' campaigns on the grounds that it is so obtuse. I will happily play a sociopath from time to time but mostly as an exploration of what defines morality as opposed to some strange form of catharsis.
There current idea I'm going with is a self contained adventure that would take the players from levels 1 to 3. They would start out as normal people in an extremely rural, low magic, mideval small town. Then they will become heroes (so #1 mainly). There will be a twist that will power up the PCs and give them some cool (and unique) customization options. Then they will face off an invasion of their town by undead from space. Part investigation, part event adventure. I will leave the door open for sequels but I'll start with one first.
I will probably also make rules for PCs to become "positive energy undead" should they get turned by something.
There will be all kinds of undead, including ghouls.
sounds great.
- 1. Be normal and fight off the undead apocalypse
- 2. Be normal, become undead, fight off the undead apocalypse as undead
- 3. Launch and "win" the undead apocalypse as the undead overlords
- 4. Be normal in a post-apocalyptic undead world
For myself, I'm most partial to #2 and #4 since I think they offer the most Roleplay opportunity; #4 in particular as it has both "internal" (emotional, behavioral, spiritual) and "external" roleplay (survival, evasion, escape, fight-or-flight, resource gathering).