Alright here is the back story. Recently my friend decided to make a NPC in his campaign that was a Mystic Theurge. Having only heard a little bit about the prestige class i started reading on it. The main requirements for it are that you can cast 2nd-level Arcane spells and 2nd-level Divine spells. Currently his Mystic Theurge is a lvl 2 Wizard and a lvl 2 Oracle and still has a few more levels to go. I told him you only need to be a 1st level Wizard and a 4th level Oracle to qualify for this prestige class.
Now here is where the disagreement came in. I have read extensively through core and online resources of pathfinder and come to the conclusion that even at 1st level a Wizard can cast 2nd-level Arcane spells. According to this ( http://www.d20pfsrd.com/basics-ability-scores/ability-scores#TOC-Abilities- and-Spellcasters ) a wizard gets 1 2nd-level spell slot if he has 14 or higher intelligence. The Wizard class page and in the book says that the requirements to cast a spell are that you have 10 + the spell level Intelligence, have the spell in your spell book(which requires a DC 12 spellcraft check after 2 hours of studying the spell), and have the spell prepared for the day.
He says that the rules say you cant. Under the Table for the Ability Score bonuses it says " In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. See the class descriptions in Classes for details. ". He has that you have to have gotten the spell slots through levels first.
My counter argument being that this is a rule that is directed at spontaneous spellcasters(Oracles, Bards, Sorcerers) because they cannot cast certain level spells till a certain level because of the requirement for spells known. Spontaneous spellcasters dont have access to higher level spells because they have to abide by spells known, where as a wizard only works out of his book, so as long as they have the required spells known(which you can get from Intel mod) that you can cast the spell. If you read the "Spell" section of the Wizard class there are no class requirements to cast spells, which is exactly where it tells you to look for said class requirements.
To finish this off i would like to mention that caster level =/= character level and neither does spell level. If a spell is a 2nd-level spell of your class that doesnt mean you have to be 2nd-level to cast it, that is only the ranking of the spell. Both me and him agree on this, since its pretty obvious and stated in the book. Just wanted to mention it cause some other people we were talking to brought it up.
Im curious to hear if anyone has any core references that support/dispute these claims and what can actually be done.
EDIT: Resolved!
Paladin and Ranger pages prove that you need a 0 or higher in the appropriate spell slot category to gain bonus spells of that level, thank you Umbral Reaver ^-^
Conclusion, you must be a 3rd level wizard to cast 2nd level spells.
A wizard doesn't get access to preparing second level spells until 3rd level, even if they have a high intelligence score. When you look at the table for wizard, the "-" symbol means the character cannot prepare spells of that level yet. However, it would not prevent the wizard from casting a second level spell off of a scroll, but I don't think that's what the Theurge requirement is talking about.
Hello Damiancrr! This is a fairly common question, and one that I remember running into when I started Pathfinder.
Having a high 'caster stat' (the stat upon which your casting ability) grants bonus spell slots, but it does not grant you the ability to cast spells that are a higher level than what you can currently cast, based on your level in the class.
In other words, although you might have an INT high enough to grant you bonus 2nd level spell slots, you can't actually CAST 2nd level spells until you are a 3rd-level Wizard. This rule is the same for prepared casters and spontaneous casters.
Essentially, you want to look at the table for the class (Table: Wizard and Table: Oracle and find the first level where they show a number in the slot for 2nd level spells.
In this case, in order to meet Mystic Theurge's spellcasting requirements, a character must have (minimum) 3 levels in Wizard and 4 in Oracle.
To quote the relevant rules text:
The ability that governs bonus spells depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, and rangers; and Charisma for bards, paladins, and sorcerers. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. See the class descriptions in Classes for details.
Hello Damiancrr! This is a fairly common question, and one that I remember running into when I started Pathfinder.
Having a high 'caster stat' (the stat upon which your casting ability) grants bonus spell slots, but it does not grant you the ability to cast spells that are a higher level than what you can currently cast, based on your level in the class.
In other words, although you might have an INT high enough to grant you bonus 2nd level spell slots, you can't actually CAST 2nd level spells until you are a 3rd-level Wizard. This rule is the same for prepared casters and spontaneous casters.
Essentially, you want to look at the table for the class (Table: Wizard and Table: Oracle and find the first level where they show a number in the slot for 2nd level spells.
In this case, in order to meet Mystic Theurge's spellcasting requirements, a character must have (minimum) 2 levels in Wizard and 4 in Oracle.
Where does it say that a wizard cant cast 2nd level spells till 3rd level? Because as far as i have read you can cast a spell as a wizard as long as you have the spell prepare and the apropriate spell level slot.
The table you listed only list spells per day, which is the exact same thing the ability table grants. If they are the same thing then there is no difference in restriction unless written, which as far as i know there isnt.Im look for solid rules that expliciatly say you cannot cast high level spells as a low level spellcaster. Because as far as i know with 14 intel as a wizard you meet all the spell requirements to use and cast.
The Wizard table is the RAW for when a wizard can prepare a spell of any given level. When you see a hyphen " - " on the table, that means the wizard has not yet gained access to preparing this level of spell.
Until they get to third level they don't have a second level spell slot.
Where does it say that a wizard cant cast 2nd level spells till 3rd level? Because as far as i have read you can cast a spell as a wizard as long as you have the spell prepare and the apropriate spell level slot.
The table you listed only list spells per day, which is the exact same thing the ability table grants. If they are the same thing then there is no difference in restriction unless written, which as far as i know there isnt.Im look for solid rules that expliciatly say you cannot cast high level spells as a low level spellcaster. Because as far as i know with 14 intel as a wizard you meet all the spell requirements to use and cast.
I edited my previous post to include the relevant rules text. It is in the section that describes gaining bonus spells from a high caster ability score.
@LazarX: Thanks. Should be 3rd level Wizard and 4th level Oracle. Will edit.
So by that logic a first lvl elf wizard with max int can cast a 5th level spell
Don't think so i asked a similar question some time ago about weather a wizard could use the bonus spell slots from high int to learn extra lower level spells as wizards can use a higher lvl slot to memorize a lower lvl spell as was told no by Sean Reynolds as you only get the extra spell slots when you reach a lvl high enough to cast spells of that lvl
Comprehensively, the main pieces of info together:
The table of spells per day under "wizard" indicates you don't get any base 2nd level spells until wizard level 3.
The paragraph above "Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells" is what says that bonus spells only apply if the character can already cast that level. Thus, although 14 INT grants an additional 1st level spell and additional 2nd level spell, the bonus spells do not become "active" until the wizard class spells per day table grants base 2nd level spells. That is what that paragraph means by "high enough level".
The Wizard table is the RAW for when a wizard can prepare a spell of any given level. When you see a hyphen " - " on the table, that means the wizard has not yet gained access to preparing this level of spell.
Until they get to third level they don't have a second level spell slot.
the -- in the spells known does not mean doesnt have access. It means "none". Which is the common trend throught the book. If the -- ment not allowed to cast this level of spell then that means the ability score table is telling you that you are not allowed to cast 0-level spells, regardless of what other sources tell you. The Spells per day table fills in those "none" with +1 +2 ect.
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It doesn't work like that. Look at the Ranger spell progression. At certain levels, it gets 0 slots of a spell level instead of '-'. This allows bonus spells for ability score to be added.
Damiancrr, you can keep arguing about this until you're blue in the face, but you'll still be wrong. A wizard does not get any 2nd level spell slots until 3rd level. The hyphen does exactly what I said it does. It shows that the wizard does not, and in fact can not, have a spell slot at that level yet.
Comprehensively, the main pieces of info together:
The table of spells per day under "wizard" indicates you don't get any base 2nd level spells until wizard level 3.
The paragraph above "Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells" is what says that bonus spells only apply if the character can already cast that level. Thus, although 14 INT grants an additional 1st level spell and additional 2nd level spell, the bonus spells do not become "active" until the wizard class spells per day table grants base 2nd level spells. That is what that paragraph means by "high enough level".
Well the thing is that there is a difference between being able to do it and doing it. A wizard ~can~ cast 2nd level spells according to the core, its that there are no means to do so because he doesnt have the appropriate spells per day.
The list doesnt use the word "already" or i would have never brought it up in the first place, it simply says you must have the ability to, which following the requirements of the core, he does.
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I can cast spells in real life.
I just don't have the slots for them.
It doesn't work like that. Look at the Ranger spell progression. At certain levels, it gets 0 slots of a spell level instead of '-'. This allows bonus spells for ability score to be added.
wow umbral your right! Thank you for providing a piece of core that says this. So a wizard cannot learn high level spells till the slots allow it.
Comprehensively, the main pieces of info together:
The table of spells per day under "wizard" indicates you don't get any base 2nd level spells until wizard level 3.
The paragraph above "Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells" is what says that bonus spells only apply if the character can already cast that level. Thus, although 14 INT grants an additional 1st level spell and additional 2nd level spell, the bonus spells do not become "active" until the wizard class spells per day table grants base 2nd level spells. That is what that paragraph means by "high enough level".
Well the thing is that there is a difference between being able to do it and doing it. A wizard ~can~ cast 2nd level spells according to the core, its that there are no means to do so because he doesnt have the appropriate spells per day.
The list doesnt use the word "already" or i would have never brought it up in the first place, it simply says you must have the ability to, which following the requirements of the core, he does.
Actually, no, he doesn't. He can cast second level scrolls, but a scroll is a spell-completion item, not a spell. A wizard cannot cast 2nd level spells until 3rd level. It seems like you read the rules incorrectly and now are trying to come up with arguments that support your wrong interpretation.
As for those complaining about me arguing my point. I wasnt wrong till someone provided specific rules that said I was. Which Umbral Reaver did(Thank you very much ^-^).
The rest of it was just hearsay and not solid. When someone ask for Clarification on rules dont play word games(which you lost), actually give a piece of the rules that says otherwise. Because until Reaver said something everything i said was correct.
I backed everything i said with numerous examples for the cores, were others just said, no you cant because you dont have it yet, which you tech do. Pages linked only said the exact same thing ive been saying. None of them but the ranger and paladin page say that you need a number in the spell slot category to be able to gain additional spell slots.
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Just to restate:
To quote the relevant rules text:
The ability that governs bonus spells depends on what type of spellcaster your character is: Intelligence for wizards; Wisdom for clerics, druids, and rangers; and Charisma for bards, paladins, and sorcerers. In addition to having a high ability score, a spellcaster must be of a high enough class level to be able to cast spells of a given spell level. See the class descriptions in Classes for details.
I edited my post to include that after the fact. The section regarding bonus spells granted by a high ability score indicates that the bonus spells are not granted or usable until you are a high enough class level to be able to cast that level of spell.
The Wizard table has a dash for 2nd level spells until 3rd level, indicating that it cannot cast 2nd level spells until 3rd level.
You were still wrong the entire time, you just didn't know that you were wrong until Umbral Reaver gave you the Ranger analogue that allowed you to see your error. Xaratherus actually quoted the relevant rules text, which you chose to ignore in favor of your interpretation which supported your desire to power game.
Anyway, welcome aboard. Pathfinder is a great game, and there are awesome people on these boards who can help with lots of dodgy ways to manipulate the rules.
Man, you should be a senator. You just admitted you were wrong, whilst continuing to argue that you were originally right.
@psychicmachinery: To be fair, I edited my original post to contain the relevant rules text AFTER the OP had already responded. But c'est la vie.
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You were still wrong the entire time, you just didn't know that you were wrong until Umbral Reaver gave you the Ranger analogue that allowed you to see your error. Xaratherus actually quoted the relevant rules text, which you chose to ignore in favor of your interpretation which supported your desire to power game.
Anyway, welcome aboard. Pathfinder is a great game, and there are awesome people on these boards who can help with lots of dodgy ways to manipulate the rules.
I dont power game? This isnt even my character its a NPC of a campaign, and Mythic Theurge in my opinion is an aweful class. I havnt even played a wizard before aside from a few mini campaigns a long while back. This was a rule discussion, nothing to do with power games.
And like i said i openly and obviously admit i was wrong. But it wasnt for the reasons anyone stated but Umbral. While its true that the lines mean unavaliable till a certian level, that is not stated till you look elsewhere, so giving mean lines means nothing in a rule dispute, which is why it wasnt wrong till Someone pointed out the Ruling for the Ranger/Paladin Class. But i was indeed wrong, but meh dont really care about your opinion, I got my question answered l8r :p
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Now, if you want an actual example of a class that can only cast a spell of a certain level, based purely on his caster stat bonus spell, look at level 1 paladin or ranger. They have a spell slot for 1st level spells, with a 0 in it. Thus, they ONLY cast a spell if they have that bonus spell based on a high stat.
This dilemma dates back to 1st edition, where there was no wording specifically banning such activity.
If you want to prepare a 2nd level wizard spell, you need to be 3rd level.
A few tips:
If you ask a rules question, expect to get a rules answer, not a rules citation. Most of us know the rules (especially little basic rules like this) off the top of our heads. We don't actually need to look in a book or the PRD for them.
When you ask a rules question that means you don't know the answer. Don't argue against people that do know the answer. If they answer you and you don't understand, ask them to explain.
I explicitly asked for a core reference, not personal experience or how you personally understand the rules. So try to answer the question asked ;)
Im not a lemming that blindly follows any unbased rule someone tells me, If someone tells me something they need a specific reason so that i know for sure myself that it is indeed correct and not just something someone told me. Especially with rules you dont just believe whatever someone tells you.
Just so I'm clear. What you're saying is that even though in short succession after your OP a few people stated pretty much exactly the same thing. You still didn't believe them because they couldn't provide a bit of rules text that specifically supported it? When you come to a forum to get rules answers and multiple people all agree on the rule, it's a good thing, and more than likely means that's the rule. But, you're right, you should wait until someone points out a "0" on a table somewhere before actually agreeing with what everybody else has already been saying.
And like i said i openly and obviously admit i was wrong. But it wasnt for the reasons anyone stated but Umbral. While its true that the lines mean unavaliable till a certian level, that is not stated till you look elsewhere, so giving mean lines means nothing in a rule dispute, which is why it wasnt wrong till Someone pointed out the Ruling for the Ranger/Paladin Class. But i was indeed wrong, but meh dont really care about your opinion, I got my question answered l8r :p
"I wasn't wrong until I was wrong!" wha???
Welcome to the boards. Good luck with getting anyone to take any more of your forum posts seriously in the future with that attitude of yours.
"kthxbye"
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Especially with rules you dont just believe whatever someone tells you.
It would appear you subscribe to the "the rules better directly address my silly bogus wrong quirky rules problem or I will continue to assert I'm right" policy.
Unfortunately (for us) the rules require a bit of interpretation because they didn't want to dump 1500 pages of rules on us. So just because the rules don't directly address your way of choosing to interpret the rules incorrectly, doesn't mean they work the way you are mus-interpreting them.
Damiancrr -
It's not necessary to rely on the Paladin or Ranger class to figure out what a Wizard can do. Umbral Reaver was correct, but there's a more fundamental clarification you need to understand.
Here's where you were mistaken.
You equated the " -- " in the two tables to mean the same thing.
the -- in the spells known does not mean doesnt have access. It means "none". Which is the common trend throught the book. If the -- ment not allowed to cast this level of spell then that means the ability score table is telling you that you are not allowed to cast 0-level spells, regardless of what other sources tell you. The Spells per day table fills in those "none" with +1 +2 ect.
They are not the same thing. Or more accurately, the " -- " means the same thing, essentially "You don't have this", but the tables themselves are treated differently.
The Wizard Class table lists the abilities you have at each level. The " -- " in that table means "You don't have this ability". The " -- " in the Bonus Spells table means "You don't have this bonus".
So, the " -- " in the 0-level spells column in the Bonus Spells table is not saying "You cannot cast 0-level spells", it is only saying that you don't have a bonus to 0-level spells per day.
Knowing that, you can look at the Wizard class, check the chart to see how many spells he gets of each Spell Level. At Wizard level 1, he gets three 0-level spells, one 1st level spell, and "--" 2nd level spells. That -- means "You don't have this ability". Period.
Then you look at the bonus spells for his Intelligence. Assuming he has a 14 INT, the table says he gets " -- " bonus 0-level spells, one bonus 1st level spell, one bonus 2nd level spell, and " -- " bonus spell of all the higher levels. So you add these as follows:
0-level spells: 3 from wizard + "You don't have this bonus" = 3
1st level spells: 1 from wizard + 1 bonus = 2
2nd level spells: "You don't have this ability" + 1 bonus = "You don't have this ability"
Etc.
I hope that clears this up, and establishes a clearer understanding of the "trend" you observed throughout the Core Rulebook.
Over 30 replies and no one's pointed to the FAQ on this exact subject?
TBH I always forget that it's there. Ever since the text I quoted was pointed out to me, I just always rmeember that's how it works. :)
Over 30 replies and no one's pointed to the FAQ on this exact subject?
LoL, sadly, I assumed the FAQ answered questions on things that were generally confusing to everyone, and I assumed this question to be obvious enough that it wouldn't need or deserve a FAQ, so I never checked. To me, it's like checking to see if there's a FAQ to explain whether or not I can add my STR bonus to my melee attack rolls - I wouldn't look for a FAQ on that, either.