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" it is reasonable for a GM to limit you to performing 5 free actions per round if each is a different free action, or perhaps 3 free actions per round if two or more are the same free action. "
So you can only draw three arrows in a round as free action - if I read that correctly
So when you draw more than one arrow at a time for Many Shot is that one free action or drawing two arrows two free actions?
TIA
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The FAQ says it would be reasonable for a GM to limit the number of free actions. It does not say "You can only take 5 free actions." The Rapid Shot feat is basically saying that you're so fast in drawing your arrows you are able to fire off one more shot than "normal" people, drawing the arrow and all. In this instance, it's a case of specific rule overruling general rule.
1) CRTTH
2) this isn't a pfs specific rule
3) Not an Action
Some activities are so minor that they are not even considered free actions. They literally don't take any time at all to do and are considered an inherent part of doing something else, such as nocking an arrow as part of an attack with a bow.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Ah, interesting. So we now have a "there aren't rules for this, but this adjudication would be reasonable" FAQ. On the bright side, the tiny handful of people who would actually try to use an abusive number of free actions in a turn are going to have a harder time labeling their GM as unreasonable when they shut down the silliness. I'd wager a guess that this was the point of the FAQ.
On the less-bright side, a number of GMs who struggle with understanding exactly what it means to run things only by the rules are going to misunderstand that FAQ as being a new hard-and-fast rule and will end up frustrating lots of moderate players with entirely reasonable builds because they think they have to impose that limit.
Oh dear. :/
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I as well am Concerned when it comes to archers
Zen Archers and Normal Archers both
I hope a clarification on this happens soon because this could potentially be REALLY bad .. especially when you get into the following
9th level Zen Archer for Reflexive Shot
and
the Snap shot Feat
9th level ZA's and Archers have the possibility of hitting 8 Shots in a round without much difficulty and it just gets worse from there
and unfortunately this FAQ is placed in the CRB section which while a nice place to put it ... hurts PFS people more-so than others IMHO
Ah, interesting. So we now have a "there aren't rules for this, but this adjudication would be reasonable" FAQ. On the bright side, the tiny handful of people who would actually try to use an abusive number of free actions in a turn are going to have a harder time labeling their GM as unreasonable when they shut down the silliness. I'd wager a guess that this was the point of the FAQ.
On the less-bright side, a number of GMs who struggle with understanding exactly what it means to run things only by the rules are going to misunderstand that FAQ as being a new hard-and-fast rule and will end up frustrating lots of moderate players with entirely reasonable builds because they think they have to impose that limit.
Oh dear. :/
GM's in PFS are required to follow RAW ... this now becomes RAW and so TECHNICALLY we have to follow it ..and GM interpretation (which I would define as RAI) is strongly discouraged from PFS - I dont see how this is can be seen any other way since almost all GM Discression things have been dealt with via RAW in the past :-(
and ZA's just got their Stuff (a few months ago) Fixed ... now its (potentially) broken again
edited a couple times for Formating and clarity
GM's in PFS are required to follow RAW ... this now becomes RAW and so TECHNICALLY we have to follow it ..
I don't think its really a rule so much as a suggestion.
BTW, if you ARE shooting 8 arrows each round, do expect to track your arrow usage.
Almost shooting a weeks pay for a commoner each round.
Mergy, I'm pretty sure the twf-double pistol guys were more or less the reason for the FAQ.
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Mergy, I'm pretty sure the twf-double pistol guys were more or less the reason for the FAQ.
The hasted single pistol guy with +11 BAB is also hurt by this. Five shots with Rapid Shot and only able to reload three times because it's the same action? Silly.
If they wanted to stop the TWF-Double Pistol guys, they should have chanced the double-barrelled pistol. Limiting free actions, when free actions include reloading, is the wrong way to go.
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ok I see where I was Mistaken
it was on the Action required to Reload a bow which I THOUGHT was a free Action .. when in actuality it is "Not an action" as per pg. 182 of the CRB
and the 8/round included Combat reflexes and Either Reflexive Shot or Snap Shot
and yes ... my ZA does Track Arrow Usage ... and I generally end up buying 40 Arrows every other scenario
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Thankfully, this FAQ is worded similarly to the Spiritual Weapon FAQ. It does not define those numbers as the limitations by RAW. It merely states that they are "reasonable" numbers for a GM to impose. So, while it doesn't mention house rules like the Spiritual Weapon FAQ does, it's still a long way from imposing a RAW limitation. It does, unfortunately, seem like it will increase table variation, because now GMs who want to limit things like a Gunslinger reloading have something to back their decision up. But if you are a GM that does not feel that reloading should be limited, it would seem you are still well within your rights to allow as many free actions as you want, in whatever combination you want.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Normally I'm not in favor of "PFS specific" rulings, but I feel this one definitely needs to be clarified by Mike. Otherwise you're going to end up with massive table variation.
Why would it be any more likely to variate than it was before?
There were endless debates on limiting free actions in various gunslinger debates over the last couple years. This seems no different, except that it actually gives a number for the "limiters" to point at (a number that is actually likely to be higher than what those guys were using before, considering the arguments I remember).
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because the "3 of the same action" is prohibitive enough to affect more than just the root cause (DW DP Gunslingers)
I personaly know some GM's that will take this as RAW and enforce it to its letter and I know a couple that would be more open with it and allow certain other things to slide ...
as soon as you suggest GM Discression - it is the very definition of Table Variation ... and PFS does its best to Limit that
I personaly know some GM's that will take this as RAW and enforce it to its letter and I know a couple that would be more open with it and allow certain other things to slide ...
I know a few that'd enforce the table to 3, sally to six, and joe who he never liked to 2.
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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^^^ What MrSin and David Bowles both said.
Wraith235, the variance already existed. It's written in the Core Book that the number of free actions is up to GM discretion. The FAQ simply gives them a guideline to back up that statement. There won't be any more variation than there already was. I would venture to say that there will be less, actually, as there is now a guideline for people to use. The "fews" will hopefully now simply enforce everyone to 3. Moreover, Joe now has a number to point at to question when he only gets 2.
Is drawing an arrow even a free action? I understand this affects gunsligers, though.
Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and halfling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions). Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost. Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown.
I think there's another clarification for it somewhere that clarifies it as a non action or something...
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Is drawing an arrow even a free action? I understand this affects gunsligers, though.Ammunition: Projectile weapons use ammunition: arrows (for bows), bolts (for crossbows), darts (for blowguns), or sling bullets (for slings and halfling sling staves). When using a bow, a character can draw ammunition as a free action; crossbows and slings require an action for reloading (as noted in their descriptions). Generally speaking, ammunition that hits its target is destroyed or rendered useless, while ammunition that misses has a 50% chance of being destroyed or lost. Although they are thrown weapons, shuriken are treated as ammunition for the purposes of drawing them, crafting masterwork or otherwise special versions of them, and what happens to them after they are thrown.I think there's another clarification for it somewhere that clarifies it as a non action or something...
Strangely you found the one I was looking for ... the other one is on 182 of the CRB
right .. I know the variance existed - and no I never played Gunslingers- I just feel uncomfortable with seeing a "GM Discresion" in organized play .. its a slippery slope thats difficult to dial back from
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Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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Page 182 literally calls out drawing an arrow when you are firing a bow as "Not an action." Other types of ammunition are limited by the rules that describe the weapon.
So, yeah, this may be the beginning of "de-powering" the gunslinger. But until it all plays out, there is no reason to request even more rules, and more "split" for PFS from regular rules. Let's just see what happens before calling for more action.
Wraith, I get what you're saying. You and nosig share that discomfort (though he tends to laugh at it). But it's all over the place in the Core Rule Book, and is a part of the game, already. There is no way to fully edit it out without completely bogging down the game.
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If there are so many feat and class ability options out there that increase the number of times you can shoot something, why then create an FAQ that makes taking one feat obsolete by the time you get +11 BAB?
Rapid shot essentially becomes useless after 11th level and archer builds can never take advantage of extra iterative attacks beyond 16th level. Or take advantage of haste or blessing of fervor.
Essentially the only ranged attack build that can get all their attacks is the thrower with quick draw.
Now if GMs only apply thus suggestion to gunslingers they have the same restrictions, but they will likely hit more often when going after touch AC. So 3 pistol shots will still likely stack up in DPR with 5 bow shots.
"you can take 3 shots if you stand here, but if your standing there you get 5!" sounds a little arbitrary doesn't it?
Putting the arrow in the string is not an action. Getting the arrow out of the quiver is a free action.