I am starting a new Wrath of the Righteous campaign a week from now, and I am considering using the standard Elite Array:
15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
I don't want to roll for stats for an AP, and I want to use something equivalent to a 15-point buy for this campaign so that it runs as intended without major modifications on my part (I have four players).
I am considering using an Array because I am trying to avoid metagaming where people discount certain classes (such as the Monk) because they tend to get the short end of the stick in point-buy systems.
What has people's experience been with the Elite Array? Does it do a decent job of reducing the imbalance between MAD and SAD classes?
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I have taken to something slightly different. I do a 25 point buy but nothing more than 17 after ratial modifiers, and nothing less than 10 before racial modifiers.
The reason I do this is because it puts a similar upper cap on the success rates fir SAD classes, which keeps 'power' in about the right range, without the forced stat dumping that lower pointbuys put on mad characters, or characters who want to play a race that isnt perfectly suited to their class.
I used the same array for two different AP's (Council of Thieves and Skull & Shackles). It works wonderfully. Best of luck with your Mythic AP.
I still would only make a SAD character with these. MAYBE a paladin if I wanted one that wasn't too bright and very unwise.
A;so, all the characters look the same.
Yes, to a certain degree, even after racial modifiers are taken into account. But I think for these players (they're young) that won't be that big of an issue. (They don't think much of their characters beyond race and class.)
It's also a matter of taste: I don't like how Point Buy causes min-maxing, and it brings out the metagaming side of these players in particular. I also don't want any one of my kids to feel like a fifth wheel because they made a roleplaying choice. Some restriction, in this case, can facilitate freedom.
Personally, I prefer Organic Point Buy from 3rd Edition, but I want to avoid a serious power imbalance among the players for the length of an AP. I also want to avoid one of the kids being careless about a character because they "might roll higher next time."
Speaking as a GM, I understand wanting to simplify character creation and balance the characters. As a player, though, I would be frustrated with not being able to customize how I wanted.
In addition, the APs can be pretty hard, especially if you refuse to pull punches with your NPCs. If your players are experienced PFRPG players and play strategically, and don't mind possible PC death, then you and they should be fine.
Point buy sucks for anything other than pure caster/fighter. anything that needs 2 decent scores for class abilities gets hosed. If the highest NPC stats are also what players use, how do they ever feel Heroic?
Well, the big unequalizers between PCs and NPCs usually tends to be how PCs complement each other's abilities, and PC character wealth.
I want to emphasize danger in a War with Demonkind AP, and I want to keep important combats thrilling. I'm making sure my players know what they're signing up for.
IF you insist on point buy, give 20 points, then just let them do it, with a 10-16 range on stats before racial mods.Cuts down on the 18s, gives mad characters a "balanced" chance against sadder characters, and keeps things down to a power level it seems you want to stay at.
More points with a top end cap means everyone is better at a lot of things, and still good at the one thing they were going to max out anyways, without being crit-bait just waiting for an enemy to roll a 20 and kill them outright, or so mentally/socially inept they can't talk straight to pay for that dex/con/str they wanted.
Another choice is to use the 15 point buy with the same 10-16 spread limits, but give 1 stat point/level instead of 1 stat boost every 4 levels. It lets people be more well rounded, but still keeps the high end down.
I was rejecting your other suggestions because they seemed to require going above a 15 point buy, which I'm not willing to do. However, this last suggestion is intriguing because it still seems to allow for customization. Have you found any downsides to this in practice? And does it lead to arrays that are similar in power to 15 point buy?
EDIT: Whoops, I actually completely misread your paragraph, thinking you said that each point above 10 would cost 1 point. (My strange mind making up things.)
I am starting a new Wrath of the Righteous campaign a week from now, and I am considering using the standard Elite Array:
15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8
I don't want to roll for stats for an AP, and I want to use something equivalent to a 15-point buy for this campaign so that it runs as intended without major modifications on my part (I have four players).
I am considering using an Array because I am trying to avoid metagaming where people discount certain classes (such as the Monk) because they tend to get the short end of the stick in point-buy systems.
What has people's experience been with the Elite Array? Does it do a decent job of reducing the imbalance between MAD and SAD classes?
IIRC, Paizo APs use a 20-point build standard for PCs, not 15.
Incorrect, Spectrevk.
The AP's suggest a 15 pt build.
PFS uses a 20 pt build.
Also keep in mind that this AP has opportunities for permanent bonuses to attributes to be gained during play.
I have taken to something slightly different. I do a 25 point buy but nothing more than 17 after ratial modifiers, and nothing less than 10 before racial modifiers.
That sir, is genius.
I have taken to something slightly different. I do a 25 point buy but nothing more than 17 after ratial modifiers, and nothing less than 10 before racial modifiers.
The reason I do this is because it puts a similar upper cap on the success rates fir SAD classes, which keeps 'power' in about the right range, without the forced stat dumping that lower pointbuys put on mad characters, or characters who want to play a race that isnt perfectly suited to their class.
Using this approach a clever player will just pick an SAD character, put at least a 14 in Con, Wis and Dex and blow the expected curve for the AP on their saves. End result is you are giving them Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude (at 1/2 bonus) and Iron Will for free while simultaneously downplaying the value of those feats as choices AND reducing the effectiveness of the bad guys save based abilities in the AP. A +2 bonus to every save is a BIG edge.
Maybe just cap starting stats at 18 AFTER racial modifiers?
Could have the benefit of seeing races which don't typically get a bonus that a class is dependent on being played.
Incorrect, Spectrevk.
The AP's suggest a 15 pt build.
PFS uses a 20 pt build.
Also keep in mind that this AP has opportunities for permanent bonuses to attributes to be gained during play.
Which AP are you looking at? None of the APs I own (Shattered Star, Reign of Winter, Serpent's Skull, Rise of the Runelords) suggests a 15 point build, and many of them have been approved for PFS play, which would suggest that PFS build standards are appropriate.
Which AP are you looking at? None of the APs I own (Shattered Star, Reign of Winter, Serpent's Skull, Rise of the Runelords) suggests a 15 point build, and many of them have been approved for PFS play, which would suggest that PFS build standards are appropriate.Incorrect, Spectrevk.
The AP's suggest a 15 pt build.
PFS uses a 20 pt build.
Also keep in mind that this AP has opportunities for permanent bonuses to attributes to be gained during play.
Council of Thieves, Kingmaker, Serpents Skull, Carrion Crown, Jade Regent, Skull & Shackles, Shattered Star, Reign of Winter, Wrath of the Righteous.
Check out this thread from the Wrath of the Righteous forum. James Jacobs elaborates.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2pza3?How-much-impact-would-a-25-point-buy-have
This seems odd, as I cant find any mention of this in the books. Any help with a page number?
Another choice is to use the 15 point buy with the same 10-16 spread limits, but give 1 stat point/level instead of 1 stat boost every 4 levels. It lets people be more well rounded, but still keeps the high end down.
This is a great idea. I am really going to try to get my current GM to use this. I almost got my last one to, but the campaign died. It is a really organic feeling fix for the whole mad vs sad thing. If it was in the Core Rule Book as an option I don't think anyone would have a batted an eye.
This is a great idea. I am really going to try to get my current GM to use this. I almost got my last one to, but the campaign died. It is a really organic feeling fix for the whole mad vs sad thing. If it was in the Core Rule Book as an option I don't think anyone would have a batted an eye.
Another choice is to use the 15 point buy with the same 10-16 spread limits, but give 1 stat point/level instead of 1 stat boost every 4 levels. It lets people be more well rounded, but still keeps the high end down.
At first read though, it looks like this might aggravate the problem because SAD characters would have the luxury to put all those increases into one stat. While I vastly prefer Pathfinder over D&D 4E, I think 4E has a good idea by allowing for more frequent stat increases while also forcing them to be spread out more (for example, at some levels you added +1 to three different stats).
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Using this approach a clever player will just pick an SAD character, put at least a 14 in Con, Wis and Dex and blow the expected curve for the AP on their saves. End result is you are giving them Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude (at 1/2 bonus) and Iron Will for free while simultaneously downplaying the value of those feats as choices AND reducing the effectiveness of the bad guys save based abilities in the AP. A +2 bonus to every save is a BIG edge.I have taken to something slightly different. I do a 25 point buy but nothing more than 17 after ratial modifiers, and nothing less than 10 before racial modifiers.
The reason I do this is because it puts a similar upper cap on the success rates fir SAD classes, which keeps 'power' in about the right range, without the forced stat dumping that lower pointbuys put on mad characters, or characters who want to play a race that isnt perfectly suited to their class.
This has nothing to do with 25pt buy. Or SAD characters.
A player worried about saves will always find a way.
Well, if you get your main stat to 18 before racials, it takes 4 levels to get it to 19, just like it does normally. Then it takes level 9 to get it to 20, one more than normal. Then 21 at level 14, and 22 at level 20. So it's worse for SAD characters than the current way of getting 1 stat increase every 4.
For a MAD character whose highest stat is a 15 before racials, they get more at level 3, then at level 6, then at 10, then at 14, then at 19. So they get a lot more boosts, and that's if they're only putting things into their highest stat.
Characters who want to boost a secondary stat from 13 to 14 can do so at level 2. A tertiary stat, going from a 9 to a 10 or an 11 to a 12, they can do at level 1.
Sometimes I wonder if 90% of forum goers don't understand that there are more options in a point buy than 7 and 18.
My go-to for 20 point buy is 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8. Get racial bumps in the stats you need most.
Using this approach a clever player will just pick an SAD character, put at least a 14 in Con, Wis and Dex and blow the expected curve for the AP on their saves. End result is you are giving them Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude (at 1/2 bonus) and Iron Will for free while simultaneously downplaying the value of those feats as choices AND reducing the effectiveness of the bad guys save based abilities in the AP. A +2 bonus to every save is a BIG edge.I have taken to something slightly different. I do a 25 point buy but nothing more than 17 after ratial modifiers, and nothing less than 10 before racial modifiers.
The reason I do this is because it puts a similar upper cap on the success rates fir SAD classes, which keeps 'power' in about the right range, without the forced stat dumping that lower pointbuys put on mad characters, or characters who want to play a race that isnt perfectly suited to their class.
Yes, but they dont have the 20 int or strength. So their primary abilities are no more likely to succeed then the mad characters. In addition most sad characters tend to have lower saves, and mad characters have higher saves. So it evens things out in multiple directions. This isnt a bad thing. The whole point of something like this is for people to be able to have multiple good ability scores. Chances are that with a MAD character at least one of the MAD abilities is a save. And normally for SAD characters, they are not on a save.
Again I feel like this evens the playing field on multiple levels in terms of ability scores among the classes.
This seems odd, as I cant find any mention of this in the books. Any help with a page number?
Core Rule Book, page 16, the chart for 15 pt buy is listed as being "Standard Fantasy".
In the thread I referred you to James Jacobs makes a direct reference to this chart in one of his posts as 15 point buy being standard for the AP's. Be sure to read ALL the posts by James Jacobs not just the first one.
I am quite frankly surprised no one else has commented on this. It is a pretty widely known fact here on the forums. Of course, not too many folks are fond of the 15 point buy and that may be the reason for their silence.
All the Iconics printed in the AP's were built on the 15 point buy as well. Check your copy of Serpent Skull. It was the last AP with the Iconics in it. Reverse engineer their stat builds. They will all come out to 15 points, I promise.
Using this approach a clever player will just pick an SAD character, put at least a 14 in Con, Wis and Dex and blow the expected curve for the AP on their saves. End result is you are giving them Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude (at 1/2 bonus) and Iron Will for free while simultaneously downplaying the value of those feats as choices AND reducing the effectiveness of the bad guys save based abilities in the AP. A +2 bonus to every save is a BIG edge.I have taken to something slightly different. I do a 25 point buy but nothing more than 17 after ratial modifiers, and nothing less than 10 before racial modifiers.
The reason I do this is because it puts a similar upper cap on the success rates fir SAD classes, which keeps 'power' in about the right range, without the forced stat dumping that lower pointbuys put on mad characters, or characters who want to play a race that isnt perfectly suited to their class.
Yes, but they dont have the 20 int or strength. So their primary abilities are no more likely to succeed then the mad characters. In addition most sad characters tend to have lower saves, and mad characters have higher saves. So it evens things out in multiple directions. This isnt a bad thing. The whole point of something like this is for people to be able to have multiple good ability scores. Chances are that with a MAD character at least one of the MAD abilities is a save. And normally for SAD characters, they are not on a save.
Again I feel like this evens the playing field on multiple levels in terms of ability scores among the classes.
I see your point, Kolokotroni. I just feel that a +2 edge across the board on saves is of huge benefit, especially at low level when the save DC's are around 12-13. That's about an 18% edge over a 15 point buy character. My players do not like to play a game that is that easy. They would quickly begin complaining about not being challenged. Of course I would just do the extra work to make sure that they were challenged, but that defeats the purpose of purchasing the ready-to-run-with-minimal-work-for-the-GM AP to begin with. Which is why, not knowing the level of GM expertise possessed by the OP, I would suggest a baseline 15 point buy.
Using this approach a clever player will just pick an SAD character, put at least a 14 in Con, Wis and Dex and blow the expected curve for the AP on their saves. End result is you are giving them Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude (at 1/2 bonus) and Iron Will for free while simultaneously downplaying the value of those feats as choices AND reducing the effectiveness of the bad guys save based abilities in the AP. A +2 bonus to every save is a BIG edge.I have taken to something slightly different. I do a 25 point buy but nothing more than 17 after ratial modifiers, and nothing less than 10 before racial modifiers.
The reason I do this is because it puts a similar upper cap on the success rates fir SAD classes, which keeps 'power' in about the right range, without the forced stat dumping that lower pointbuys put on mad characters, or characters who want to play a race that isnt perfectly suited to their class.
This has nothing to do with 25pt buy. Or SAD characters.
A player worried about saves will always find a way.
Yeah, but this way they do not have to find a way. It has been handed to them at first level before play ever began.
Sometimes I wonder if 90% of forum goers don't understand that there are more options in a point buy than 7 and 18.
My go-to for 20 point buy is 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8. Get racial bumps in the stats you need most.
That is pretty close to what I use pre racials. Depending on class I will take a 7 in a stat though. Particularly on 2 skill point classes where there really isn't any reason why not to go to 7 in INT if you are willing to go to 8 on that stat. Cleric is notorious for taking min int for this reason. Heck a Nagaji paladin mechanically speaking has no reason to not go to 5int other than RP. Heck on barbarians you don't "really" need anything above 14 at level one for strength, as when you rage you will still have an 18 and be strong enough to do your role, and likely have a huge con since that is where you chose to put your highest stat... Add in not tanking Cha with such a build and you end up with a better balanced character in the long run.
I see your point, Kolokotroni. I just feel that a +2 edge across the board on saves is of huge benefit, especially at low level when the save DC's are around 12-13. That's about an 18% edge over a 15 point buy character. My players do not like to play a game that is that easy. They would quickly begin complaining about not being challenged. Of course I would just do the extra work to make sure that they were challenged, but that defeats the purpose of purchasing the ready-to-run-with-minimal-work-for-the-GM AP to begin with. Which is why, not knowing the level of GM expertise possessed by the OP, I would suggest a baseline 15 point buy.
Its not really a +1 across the board bonus on saves, wizards and fighters generally dont have a 10 dex and a 10 con even in 15 point buys. It is probably more like a +1 bonus. But it also leaves room for things like a charismatic wizard or fighter, instead of having to play to stereo types.
I also think it might come down to play style. I dont see making your saves as a point of difficulty, I see succeeding at the things you are actively doing as the point of difficulty. IE save dcs, attack bonuses, damage bonuses, and even having a good AC, not that saves dont come up ofcourse, they just generally arent part of whether or not a character can do their job or not.
I've run a couple modules and aps with my method, and I dont find the characters lack for challenge as written. +1 or even +2 on saves isnt going to make or break the adventure. Having 2 less on your primary action though (be it save dcs or attack bonuses or what have you) will make a difference in my opinion, and even in 15 point buy, its managable for SAD classes to have that very high main bonus. Which is the difference. My system puts everyone on even footing, in exchange for a boost to secondary abilities. A straight point buy leaves characters with the option to have higher then normal (in my opinion) ability scores in the thing they do most.
Using this approach a clever player will just pick an SAD character, put at least a 14 in Con, Wis and Dex and blow the expected curve for the AP on their saves. End result is you are giving them Lightning Reflexes, Great Fortitude (at 1/2 bonus) and Iron Will for free while simultaneously downplaying the value of those feats as choices AND reducing the effectiveness of the bad guys save based abilities in the AP. A +2 bonus to every save is a BIG edge.
Improving saves relative to the DCs is a good thing. This is why rolling stats is generally better than point buy when dealing with SAD spellcasters. It's easier to generate 3 defensive stats not too far behind the single offensive stat of the opposition when rolling than when you have point scarcity. Point buy's scarcity drives down defenses in comparison.
That and weak saves are generally too low anyway.
An update: our Wrath of the Righteous party will include a monk, a wizard, and possibly a cleric.
My wizard player was not happy with the Elite Array and wanted to stick to point buy. I stuck to my guns, especially since we have a monk player. He then suggested that I modify the array to 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8. I allowed it, because I thought about how the monk was going to have a "spike" stat (his Strength) that was also going to benefit from this anyway.
Do other people think this would cause problems of balance between the classes? I don't see any issues with it.
Meh. As far as I'm concerned, if you aren't doing 3D6 in order, you're playing in Easy Mode.
3D6 in order. add Good and Gary intended.