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Ok, because reality is being brought in here, I'll reference reality.
I wrestled for 5 years in high school. I can tell you that grabbing someone (the initial grapple) then grabbing someone else (the second) is relatively easy, even if the initial is struggling.
Pinning either of them (where pin means restrict movement beyond just holding on), however, is nigh impossible.Just my 2cp.
I would even be fine with that. in the game I ran, however, it was done in a single round.
free action: release #1
std action: pin #2
move action: re-grapple #1the CMB rolls were ridiculous.
That wouldn't be possible. You could
free action release target 1
move action to maintain grapple on target 2 using the pin option
standard action grapple target 1 again
As for possible and impossible we are dealing with a game with magic. Monks use quasi-magical abilities I consider it not realistic but easy to foresee given the "magic" in the game.
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A friend of mine challenged me to create a PFS build that could grapple the biggest thing I could think of so I made this:
Str 16 + 2 Racial + 1 Lvl 4, +1 Lantern Lodge Bonus, +2 Belt of Str = 22
Dex 14
Con 12
Int 12
Wis 14 + 2 Racial + 2 Headband of Wisdom = 18
Cha 7 - 2 Racial
Took the Racial Trait Prehensile Tail
Traits Adopted Human (Bred for War Racial Trait) He is from Shaonti, picked Shaonti as his bonus language and professes to be a Shaonti Warrior
Feats 1 Armor of the Pit, Improved Unarmed Strike(B), Improved Grapple(B), Stunning Fist(B)
2 Stunning Pin
3 Obedience Feat to Falyana
5 Blindfight
6 Greater Grapple
Items Belt of Strength +2, Headband of Wis +2, Ring of Prot +1, Cloak of Resistance +1, Armbands of the Brawler, Dusty Rose Ioun Stone in a Wayfinder
At level 6 his CMB was:
BAB 6 (Tetori use full monk levels)
Str 6
Imp Grapple 2
Gr. Grapple 2
Bred for War 1
Obedience 4
Armbands of the Brawler 1
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone 2
for a total of +24 on grapple CMB.
His CMD was
Base 10
BAB 4
Str 6
Dex 2
Wis 4
Obedience 4
Dusty Rose IS 3 (Insight to AC, +2 from wayfinder)
Monk AC Bonus 1
Ring of Deflection 1
For a total of 35 CMD, 37 vs. Grapples, 44 to break grapple, 39 vs. being grappled
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I'd love to see an encounter become "severely unbalanced" that came from some sort of martial class grappling two creatures instead one. What, two casters standing side by side with nothing between them and the grappler? Hate to break it to you, but any melee class worth its salt would have replicated a very similar result (ie. caster not casting, although in this case they are a red mist instead of grappled).
I've encountered grapple builds twice.
both times I've faced a grapple-focused build, the encounters have been anticlimactic. in Kalkamedes, I actually had to apologize to the new players at the table (who had one and zero XP, respectively) for the boring encounter. they didn't get a chance to do anything against the final boss.
I don't care that you *can* make such a build. it's inconsiderate to the rest of the table, players and GM. if you're going to be that selfish, you should at least give everyone else at the table a chance to contribute before you dominate and end the encounter single-handedly.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Re: Night March of Kalkamedes - So it took 3 rounds for the grappler to take down the BBEG. Funnily enough, that's about how long it took an entirely normal party to take that creature down when I ran it. I also didn't drop anybody with that creature. So in either case, it was a 3-round fight with no casualties. Why is the fact that someone at your table was inflicting conditions instead of damage such a big deal?
I don't care that you *can* make such a build. it's inconsiderate to the rest of the table, players and GM. if you're going to be that selfish, you should at least give everyone else at the table a chance to contribute before you dominate and end the encounter single-handedly.
Then you've got a player problem, not a rules problem.
Slumbering witches, Color-spraying heavens oracles, zen archers, summoners, and a whole host of other builds can all single-handedly trivialize encounters.
I played the second scenario you mentioned and the witch in our party dropped the BBEG with Slumber. Over and done.
I've got a Lore Warden/Maneuver Master who's at +19 Grapple now (level 7) and will probably hit +34 by level 12. But I play him to empower my party instead of solo scenarios. He usually just does Trips and Dirty Tricks to make it easier for everyone else, but he's got the option to shut down a bad guy if things start to go south.
In fact, I played the first scenario you mentioned with that very character.
My advice to you the next time you encounter a grappler is to take them aside before the game and ask them to consider the fun of the other players--and yourself--when choosing their actions. If he resists, then you can ask the table if they prefer that he solo encounters or let them contribute.
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Why is the fact that someone at your table was inflicting conditions instead of damage such a big deal?
there were three other players at the table. two of them were brand new. neither of them got to contribute at all. I don't have a problem with overpowered characters. I have a problem with those players dominating encounters before anyone else gets a chance to play.
maybe you don't consider keeping new players wanting to come back for more a big deal. I do. if your first experience trying something new sucks, why would you both going back?
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A friend of mine challenged me to create a PFS build that could grapple the biggest thing I could think of so I made this:
Quick Correction:
CMD: Slotted Dusty Rose Ioun Stone should be +1 Insight to AC, +2 Insight to CMB and +2 Insight to CMD from these effects. You can't stack +1 Insight AC (which would go to CMD) and +2 Insight CMD for a total of +3 CMD as they're both Insight bonuses.Re: Night March
So, did the Tetori solo the rest of the adventure as well? The RP, the physical and mental skill checks and the other 3 combats that had multiple creatures? Single foe encounters can be shut down by any one PC given the right circumstances (SoS enchanters with ridic DCs, smiting Archer Pallies, bad touch plane shift clerics).
@redward may be correct in that it may be player problem (however, as we're only getting your side of the story, it's not fair to assume it's a player problem--confirmation bias and all that jazz).
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@melferburque: Why weren't the other PCs able to contribute for 3 rounds while he was making grapple checks? What were they doing?
Also, responding to a question about the difference between two situations by saying I must not care about other people is pretty firmly in violation of "don't be a dick", not to mention being really asinine (the equivalent of "Why? Because you're stupid, that's why!"). If you want to be taken seriously, try discussing opposing viewpoints like an adult instead of just sniping anyone who so much as asks you for more of your thoughts.
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-20 grab option is to avoid gaining the grappled condition altogether, and is basically a complete trap, because it almost never succeeds. Do we need more trap options?
actually this is completely wrong.
its all in how you build your character, and what targets you are focusing on. a -20 to grapple an earth elemental will fail (unless you're cool and have quicken true strike on your tetori) but on an enemy caster, that f&+$er is done. my tetori can beat a level 20 wizards cmd at level 8 40% of the time. wait until im level 13 and suppressing his counter measures for grappling. i would take that -20 just to say i did it and lol.
the only way i have found to hold multiple grapples simo is with a tetori (or unarmed fighter) with snapping turtle style. snapping turtle lets you use an aoo once per round as a grapple check, and tetori( and unarmed fighter) allows you to take AOOs in a grapple. otherwise as stated in the grappled condition "Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity"
you would have a minus 4 to the attempt but you could do it.
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A friend of mine challenged me to create a PFS build that could grapple the biggest thing I could think of so I made this:
Quick Correction:
CMD: Slotted Dusty Rose Ioun Stone should be +1 Insight to AC, +2 Insight to CMB and +2 Insight to CMD from these effects. You can't stack +1 Insight AC (which would go to CMD) and +2 Insight CMD for a total of +3 CMD as they're both Insight bonuses.Re: Night March
So, did the Tetori solo the rest of the adventure as well? The RP, the physical and mental skill checks and the other 3 combats that had multiple creatures? Single foe encounters can be shut down by any one PC given the right circumstances (SoS enchanters with ridic DCs, smiting Archer Pallies, bad touch plane shift clerics).@redward may be correct in that it may be player problem (however, as we're only getting your side of the story, it's not fair to assume it's a player problem--confirmation bias and all that jazz).
I had forgotten that was an insight bonus to those stats, I will have to make the correction. I guess it works with Dodge bonuses because they stack.
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Also, responding to a question about the difference between two situations by saying I must not care about other people is pretty firmly in violation of "don't be a dick", not to mention being really asinine (the equivalent of "Why? Because you're stupid, that's why!"). If you want to be taken seriously, try discussing opposing viewpoints like an adult instead of just sniping anyone who so much as asks you for more of your thoughts.
I had already mentioned my frustrations with the encounter and having new players at the table. you asking me "why is it a big deal?" was no less sniping or immature than my response. it was a stupid question, and a loaded one at that.
I am a relatively new GM. I am doing my best, and trying to encourage new players to come out. when I have experienced GMs bring characters to my table that even they don't fully understand, and who they admit they would hate to GM against, I also consider that a violation of "don't be a dick." I think it's disrespectful to the other players and the GM.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I wasn't asking why frustrated players are a big deal, I asked why having a PC spend 3 rounds fighting just like everyone else was a big deal. That is, how do you get from "PC spends 3 rounds grappling instead of 3 rounds attacking for damage" to "players are frustrated to the point of needing an apology"?
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Wardstone Patrol:
Just to provide a different recollection of those events
I was the 6 tetori monk and grappled one of the guys the first round, he died, moved to the one grappled in back, we got hit by a ton of mass inflict lights and the ranger got hurt so I dragged my target to the one beating on the ranger to grapple it.
The next rounds were trying to get the ranger healed up, a lot of the other characters withdrawing moving, the halfling attacking while I tried to tie up one of the monsters to try and stop the waves of mass inflicts from killing the party.
Finally, the one tied up and helpless Vermleks just leaves his body summons 3 dretchs all of whom drop stinking cloud on us and we run. At no point did I have two tied up, at no point did I ever "solo" the encounter and in fact spent most of my time trying to protect the ranger so he wouldn't die. We finally had to retreat because we couldn't handle all 4 mobs plus the summons.
As for the final boss encounter. 1. didn't know it was the final boss just thought he was going nuts and I could deal with it fast so we could move on. Once it was communicated to me that it was I drew my Earthbreaker and start beating on him, not grappling at all. You missed me once and called the fight over.
Not sure how I was being selfish or greedy at all, and when it was communicated to me that I was going to trivialize it, I stopped grappling.
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the bad guy got two attacks, both came AFTER he was initially grappled. the third round he was pinned and helpless. the other players weren't able to get an attack off due to penalties, low initiatives and being level 1 players. once it was tied, the monk insisted he coup de grace an opponent that hadn't even taken damage, because it was helpless.
I told the player after the fact that what he did was not considerate to the other players, he didn't seem to care. he single-handedly took out a boss with 49 hit points without damaging it once.
yes, my problem is with dick players. but I only am bothered by dick players that overpower adventures. I have not had this problem in games without tetoris, and that includes slumber hexes and raging barbarians. for one thing, a slumber hex is a one-shot deal, if it doesn't work the witch is hosed. it also has a much easier save than breaking a grapple against a grapple centric character.
as for barbarians? I've yet to see one rush in and kill the boss before anyone else could act. I'm sure it's possible, but I haven't seen anyone at my tables that greedy.
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the other players weren't able to get an attack off due to penalties, low initiatives and being level 1 players.
1. What penalties could they possibly have that kept them from attacking a grappled target?
2. Low initiative just means they had two rounds to attack it before it was pinned instead of three. What were they doing for those three rounds?3. How does being level 1 keep you from attacking?
Your description of events completely baffles me.
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Not sure how I was being selfish or greedy at all
you're right. it's not like I told you that the table I GM'd before that ended up broken by a tetori (Kalkamedes) and that I had reservations about GMing the class because I didn't have a firm grasp on how the archetype worked.
and yes, I "cheated" with the vermlek because that's what I was specifically told to do by my Venture Captain. I was specifically told to not let a single player dominate an encounter. it was either that or continue to cast inflict light wounds and kill another player at the table outright. had I not done that, the entire party would have run away and you would have tied up four powerful opponents. I made a GM decision to not allow that and forced you to retreat with the rest of the party.
the alchemist lobbing acid at a demon? not my fault he failed his knowledge check and wasn't going to meta-game.
we had discussed the adventure before we started, and I gave ample warning that playing up would be difficult. the table decided to play up averaging I believe a 5.2, including a level 3 ranger.
and for the boss, you tried to pin him IN THE SADDLE before I called b+~!~!+%.
as for why you are selfish? you admitted you've GM'd characters like this, and they've broken scenarios. so why would you specifically make one to break another GM's game? someone dared you to? fine, play it in his game. don't inflict it on everyone else. especially if it's going to take three days to work out all of the rules.
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the other players weren't able to get an attack off due to penalties, low initiatives and being level 1 players.1. What penalties could they possibly have that kept them from attacking a grappled target?
2. Low initiative just means they had two rounds to attack it before it was pinned instead of three. What were they doing for those three rounds?
3. How does being level 1 keep you from attacking?Your description of events completely baffles me.
1. -4 ranged attack into melee.
2. low or no BAB.3. not optimized characters.
as I said, I had two brand new characters. they didn't have a lot of tactics or optimal characters. the overpowered magus at the table (level 5 playing down to tier 1-2) understood the situation, and he stayed back. the tetori was only level 2 but was optimized to the point that anything more than a 3 on the die would succeed on his CMD.
had he been playing a different class, the boss fight would have taken at least a few more rounds.
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and yes, I "cheated" with the vermlek because that's what I was specifically told to do by my Venture Captain. I was specifically told to not let a single player dominate an encounter.
Your VC was correct in saying that you shouldn't let a single player dominate the scenario, but not every method of intervention is legal. You are NEVER allowed to alter the scenario (such as adding monsters, changing stats/abilities, etc), no matter what. If a player is disruptive*, you talk to them. If they don't change the disruptive behavior, you can boot them from the table. You do NOT sculpt the scenario around them. Ever.
we had discussed the adventure before we started, and I gave ample warning that playing up would be difficult. the table decided to play up averaging I believe a 5.2, including a level 3 ranger.
I'm sure it was an honest mistake, but you don't get to choose whether to play up or not. If your APL is in the middle in Season 5, the number of PCs determines which subtier you play. (If memory serves, 3-4 PCs get the lower subtier without the 4-player adjustment, while 5+ PCs get the higher subtier, but check the Guide to be sure.)
*To be clear, "disruptive" is not necessarily the same as "powerful". Were the other players having fun? Were they glad to have someone who could overcome the challenges, or were they perturbed by the grappling?
Not sure how I was being selfish or greedy at allyou're right. it's not like I told you that the table I GM'd before that ended up broken by a tetori (Kalkamedes) and that I had reservations about GMing the class because I didn't have a firm grasp on how the archetype worked.
and yes, I "cheated" with the vermlek because that's what I was specifically told to do by my Venture Captain. I was specifically told to not let a single player dominate an encounter. it was either that or continue to cast inflict light wounds and kill another player at the table outright. had I not done that, the entire party would have run away and you would have tied up four powerful opponents. I made a GM decision to not allow that and forced you to retreat with the rest of the party.
the alchemist lobbing acid at a demon? not my fault he failed his knowledge check and wasn't going to meta-game.
we had discussed the adventure before we started, and I gave ample warning that playing up would be difficult. the table decided to play up averaging I believe a 5.2, including a level 3 ranger.
and for the boss, you tried to pin him IN THE SADDLE before I called b!&~+@+!.
as for why you are selfish? you admitted you've GM'd characters like this, and they've broken scenarios. so why would you specifically make one to break another GM's game? someone dared you to? fine, play it in his game. don't inflict it on everyone else. especially if it's going to take three days to work out all of the rules.
the other players weren't able to get an attack off due to penalties, low initiatives and being level 1 players.1. What penalties could they possibly have that kept them from attacking a grappled target?
2. Low initiative just means they had two rounds to attack it before it was pinned instead of three. What were they doing for those three rounds?
3. How does being level 1 keep you from attacking?Your description of events completely baffles me.
1. -4 ranged attack into melee.
2. low or no BAB.
3. not optimized characters.as I said, I had two brand new characters. they didn't have a lot of tactics or optimal characters. the overpowered magus at the table (level 5 playing down to tier 1-2) understood the situation, and he stayed back. the tetori was only level 2 but was optimized to the point that anything more than a 3 on the die would succeed on his CMD.
had he been playing a different class, the boss fight would have taken at least a few more rounds.
To me it sounds like you had a dungeon that was overly difficult for most of your players, and then you got upset when the only well-built one began to win. So, in your dungeons, what is the point in making a good character and trying if you (the DM) will just change it on the spot to be a barely survivable struggle? What is the point in having a particular strength for your build if you (the DM) want to do everything in your power to prevent it from working?
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the other players weren't able to get an attack off due to penalties, low initiatives and being level 1 players.1. What penalties could they possibly have that kept them from attacking a grappled target?
2. Low initiative just means they had two rounds to attack it before it was pinned instead of three. What were they doing for those three rounds?
3. How does being level 1 keep you from attacking?Your description of events completely baffles me.
1. -4 ranged attack into melee.
2. low or no BAB.
3. not optimized characters.as I said, I had two brand new characters. they didn't have a lot of tactics or optimal characters. the overpowered magus at the table (level 5 playing down to tier 1-2) understood the situation, and he stayed back. the tetori was only level 2 but was optimized to the point that anything more than a 3 on the die would succeed on his CMD.
had he been playing a different class, the boss fight would have taken at least a few more rounds.
1. So everyone was an archer without Point Blank Shot? No one had melee options of their own?
2. How does that keep them from attacking?3. How does that keep them from attacking?
Or did you actually mean that no one successfully hit the BBEG? If so, how is that another PC's fault?
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First off, I am not sure you "cheated" on the Vermlek. I didn't believe it was possible but I may be wrong on that.
I also don't feel that I was dominating an encounter when all I am doing is trying to protect people and prevent the monsters from killing them in the only way my character can.
We did make the check on their resistances, he just didn't have any other options for damage. I believe he was throwing tanglefoot bags to try and slow them down.
We don't have a choice on whether to play up or down. Season 5, 5 players, total character level 5, we are forced to play up with the 4 person adjustments. If it was an earlier season we would have been forced to play down.
Yes I tried to pin him in the saddle. There is absolutly nothing in the rules that says a mounted character is immune to being grappled, pinned or any other condition. You gave the horse a chance to buck me off and it failed.
I have been GMing for years. There are tons of powerful characters in PFS. Gunslingers, Archers, Witches, Wizards and all sorts. As a GM I do not get to decide what characters you play, I just need to make sure everyone is having fun. I did not make this character just to piss off GMs, I made it because I wanted to play a grappler that could grapple throughout his career and grapple CMD scale horrendously, which means you have to plan ahead.
As for taking three days to work out the rules. I had them down and clear at that table. I could show you by RAW then the same argument I have made with how I can grapple 2 targets. As for trying to pin a mounted character, there are no specific rules for it, so you go by exactly what the rules do say, if you have a target grappled you can pin it. If Paizo decides to change the rules fine, but everything I did was legal (except miscalculating one stat as mentioned above).
I don't see how trying to save other party members by preventing them from being killed is selfish nor do I understand how I was supposed to know that the encounter with the horseman was the final encounter. Up to that we had the one other fight and so I had no idea what was going on except by what I saw in front of me. For all I knew this was part of the final encounter where we get jumped by demons while dealing with the situation. The fact is once you communicated the fact to me I stopped grappling him.
Not sure what more I can do. I play the characters I want to play, some of them are strong, some of them are designed to do things that shouldn't work but do, others are just designed for fun. If it looks like I am stepping on people's toes and I see it, I stop. If a GM needs to pull me aside and say hey, its not fun for them, then I will alter my strategy. Had one situation where another player really wanted to do something and the DM said something so I readied an action rather than doing something so he could shine.
Just communicate with your players
the other players weren't able to get an attack off due to penalties, low initiatives and being level 1 players.1. What penalties could they possibly have that kept them from attacking a grappled target?
2. Low initiative just means they had two rounds to attack it before it was pinned instead of three. What were they doing for those three rounds?
3. How does being level 1 keep you from attacking?Your description of events completely baffles me.
1. -4 ranged attack into melee.
2. low or no BAB.
3. not optimized characters.as I said, I had two brand new characters. they didn't have a lot of tactics or optimal characters. the overpowered magus at the table (level 5 playing down to tier 1-2) understood the situation, and he stayed back. the tetori was only level 2 but was optimized to the point that anything more than a 3 on the die would succeed on his CMD.
had he been playing a different class, the boss fight would have taken at least a few more rounds.
1. So everyone was an archer without Point Blank Shot? No one had melee options of their own?
2. How does that keep them from attacking?
3. How does that keep them from attacking?Or did you actually mean that no one successfully hit the BBEG? If so, how is that another PC's fault?
I think the view is "it is not fair for a particular player to do well if everyone else is poorly built and/or struggling". Which in and of itself is a poor decision most of the time. Why discourage trying your best to not die? Your players should enjoy the game and try to win, and you should reward them for it. You should challenge them as well, but you should also let them enjoy it. Shutting down an individual player or berating someone for playing their class is just as bad as letting a single person "dominate" an encounter.
yes, my problem is with dick players. but I only am bothered by dick players that overpower adventures. I have not had this problem in games without tetoris, and that includes slumber hexes and raging barbarians. for one thing, a slumber hex is a one-shot deal, if it doesn't work the witch is hosed. it also has a much easier save than breaking a grapple against a grapple centric character.
as for barbarians? I've yet to see one rush in and kill the boss before anyone else could act. I'm sure it's possible, but I haven't seen anyone at my tables that greedy.
The witch we had in Wardstone had Accursed Hex, which gives him a second attempt after a save is made. He also may or may not have softened up the BBEG with Evil Eye. And he never had to get closer than 30 ft.
And that was not the only time I've played with a witch that slumbered the BBEG, ending the encounter immediately.
I've also had many an archer in my party one-shot (well, many-shot) bad guys.
My level 11 barbarian can do 8d8+96 on a full attack (if all 4 hit). 12d6+96 if I get Lead Blades off first. 16d8+104 if I'm Enlarged. Not saying that to brag, because I know others can do much, much better.
But again, I'm not out to Win Pathfinder so I usually keep something in the tank until it's apparent the party needs it.
Anyway, this is all devolving into a he said/she said situation. Players and GMs need to try to read each other to determine whether what they're doing is creating unnecessary tension. And they also need to communicate when something feels wrong.
GMs have every much as right to fun as the players. But PFS may not be the best environment for you if your sense of fun derives from beating the players as a GM ("I didn't even get to drop someone!") or beating the scenario as a player ("everyone get behind me, this will all be over soon").
Also, I GM'd @redwards lore warden and did my darndest to kill him.
I'll get you next time, redward!
*shakes fist*
Now's your chance. He's a delicate flower until he gets his Con bump at level 8.
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GMs have every much as right to fun as the players. But PFS may not be the best environment for you if your sense of fun derives from beating the players as a GM ("I didn't even get to drop someone!") or beating the scenario as a player ("everyone get behind me, this will all be over soon").
I was already accused once of trying to "beat" my players, and that pissed me off. the GM is the bad guy, we're not supposed to win, but we are supposed to make things entertaining and exciting. and yes, PFS is very restrictive in what we can and cannot do. that's why it's so baffling that an experienced GM would try to break a scenario.
my only goal in running a scenario is trying to make sure everyone has fun, including me. I would much rather play, but understand that someone needs to step up and run games. unfortunately, there's only a small subset of players that is both willing and able to run games. so far I'm definitely the former, and mostly the latter. I get tripped up when people bring overly complicated, convoluted characters and tactics that bog down an encounter. it's bad enough when a power gamer does it. it's that much more so when a fellow GM does it.
I would never inflict a character on another GM that I would not want playing at my table. that's my interpretation of "don't be a dick."
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the only way i have found to hold multiple grapples simo is with a tetori (or unarmed fighter) with snapping turtle style. snapping turtle lets you use an aoo once per round as a grapple check, and tetori( and unarmed fighter) allows you to take AOOs in a grapple. otherwise as stated in the grappled condition "Grappled creatures cannot make attacks of opportunity"
Snapping Turtle Clutch: While you are using the Snapping Turtle Style feat, the shield bonus the style grants to your AC applies to your CMD and touch AC. Whenever an opponent misses you with a melee attack while you are using the Snapping Turtle Style feat, you can use an immediate action to attempt a grapple combat maneuver against that opponent, but with a –2 penalty.
Not an AOO but an immediate action. And only against creatures that miss you with a melee attack.
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but we are supposed to make things entertaining and exciting.
No, you're supposed to make things fair and fun. PCs won't always be in serious danger. But you know what? If you're willing, you'll sooner or later learn how to bring fun to the whole table even when the PCs are roflstomping every encounter. (If you're not, then I strongly suggest you never GM any Season 0 scenarios. Those are often irredeemable cakewalks, so you'll only get frustrated if you need to challenge PCs in order to have fun.)
For the record, some of my best tables as a GM have involved incredibly "easy" scenarios (regardless of whether it was because of the scenario or because of the PCs).
I have been busy with stuff, and I have read enough.
I will try not to be rude in my statements, but @melferburque: I only explained the RAW behind the PC's interpretations, and provided RAI insight as to how the RAW can be backed up and acceptable. If you have a problem with it, then it constitutes houserules. However, when you ask a question in a forum such as the Rules Question, it is always assumed that the person is using RAW. If it's Homebrew questions, then there is its own thread for that.
Now, you seemed to have overskipped my explanation (since you found it to be a silly interpretation), But let me explain some key things about it again since it seems you overlooked it or you found that it didn't matter (even though, on the contrary it does).
-The Tactic your PC is attempting to do requires more rounds than what he leads on, and more hands than any standard human being is capable of. Unless he has 3 hands (or limbs that can be counted as hands), he can't do such a tactic, as it would take 2 hands to tie somebody up, and he already has one making sure the other guy isn't going anywhere. So if he has 3 hands (or a Prehensile Tail with his standard 2), he is capable of doing this. However, if he's just some random Human Schmuck, then he is in fact breaking the rules, and you need to explain that to him, since it seems it's not something he interpreted through the rules.
-The RAW is there for all of the participants of the game to work with and provide universal ground for all of you to play on. If you don't accept what the RAW says, then as a GM you can nerf it if it's that much of a problem for your game (after all, Rule 0 can make games a lot more fun when used properly). But when you stray from the RAW, you get into a completely different kind of game, and when you ask for help, we won't really know how to proceed when we don't know the rules of your game (which, with all of the Homebrew materials implemented), that is something we can't comprehend, especially since you seem to find all of our arguments (which takes words directly from what the Devs wrote into the books) invalid, taking only confirmation from one of the Devs whom may also interpret that you're playing a completely different game from what's written, and quite frankly won't be able to help you because of its discrepancies.
-In cases of PFS, the RAW is the LAW. If the RAW says you can do this without making discrepancy that you can't (with no obvious RAI saying otherwise), then by all means you technically are able. Can the Monk in question tie people up as a Move Action? Sure, after they're pinned. Does the Monk has 2 hands to tie a person up (or limbs that function as hands?) Chances are, no. And until they do, their tactic in question is impossible to perform. (After all, who can tie a shoe with one hand, much less a person?)
I was already accused once of trying to "beat" my players, and that pissed me off. the GM is the bad guy, we're not supposed to win, but we are supposed to make things entertaining and exciting.
I was not accusing you of trying to beat the PCs, in case you thought that's what I was saying. But if you've heard it before it may be worth some self-reflection.
the GM is the bad guy, we're not supposed to win, but we are supposed to make things entertaining and exciting.
I would disagree with this approach. The GM is not the bad guy. At least not in PFS. You didn't write the characters or choose their tactics. That's all been done for you. It's like a giant game of mousetrap. You're just the guy turning the crank to set things in motion. But like in mousetrap, nothing ever really works the way it's supposed to so you have to fiddle around to keep things moving.
I root for the PCs. I try to play the bad guys to the height of their abilities, but I don't fudge rolls or pad hit points or anything else to heighten the drama. I also don't "forget" to confirm crits or ignore the PC who keeps attacking me after the cleric brings him from -1 to 4. I'll warn him of the consequences, but I want their choices to matter.
Again, that's just how I look at it.
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Darksol if you are curious about the character he is talking about I posted my build above.
It was a Tiefling, with prehensile Tail.
Round by Round
1st Move to target, grappled
2nd Move action to maintain grapple, move him half speed next to another target, standard action grapple.
3rd Move action to pin target 1, standard action to pin target 2
4th Free action release target 2, swift action to draw rope using tail, move action to maintain pin on target 1, tying up. Free action release. Standard action grapple target 2.
Darksol if you are curious about the character he is talking about I posted my build above.
It was a Tiefling, with prehensile Tail.
Round by Round1st Move to target, grappled
2nd Move action to maintain grapple, move him half speed next to another target, standard action grapple.
3rd Move action to pin target 1, standard action to pin target 2
4th Free action release target 2, swift action to draw rope using tail, move action to maintain pin on target 1, tying up. Free action release. Standard action grapple target 2.
You need to emphasize the fact that you are, in fact, dropping a grapple on the second guy before you tie up the first guy. People passing by don't seem to notice and they think you're tying one guy up while grappling another.
Round by Round
1st Move to target, grappled
2nd Move action to maintain grapple, move him half speed next to another target, standard action grapple.
3rd Move action to pin target 1, standard action to pin target 2
4th Free action release target 2, swift action to draw rope using tail, move action to maintain pin on target 1, tying up. Free action release. Standard action grapple target 2.
By RAW this is all allowed, assuming the targets fail to break free from the grapple and the PC doesn't fail in maintaining the grapple. I don't really see a problem with this, and to be honest, the PC could simply tie one up while keeping the other pinned, since the Tail can definitely help you out with tying people up just like any other hand can. (In addition, a typical pin, like in wresting, usually takes more than just your hand[s] to keep them down and disabled; generally using arms, legs, and/or your abdomen, in any sort of combination.)
The only restriction that the Prehensile Tail makes in distinction to any other hand-like limb via its description is that it can't perform fine, precision based activites that would require fingers. For example, it can't help with looping the rope through the holes you normally make, but it can most certainly serve as a grip or palm pulling the knot tight. It could also serve as a form of Unarmed Strike if you really wanted to.
In addition, Grapple can be very easily countered, can only be done once a round (though maintained multiple times), and is something the GM's Big Bad NPCs should prepare for (Freedom of Movement makes you immune to Grappling, which can be made permanent with a ring). Plus, if the GM is really having trouble against such a PC, fighting fire with fire isn't always a bad idea (and quite frankly, it does make the game more interesting when done right).
Why won't Dominate Person work on your Tetori Tiefling?Have to be dominate monster, person don't work, neither do vampires
Tieflings aren't persons.
Or more specifically, Humanoids.
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GMs can allow or disallow anything in a home game. In organized play like PFS that is not true, as they must follow the requirements of the Society as GMs, and cannot make changes or ignore RAW as suits them like they can in a home game.
In your home game feel free to rule against RAW, as you say you can do anything and your interpretation as a GM is critical to your game. I would suggest that you inform players when you do change the rules so that they don't present a character that won't work in your game the way they expect.
As for your argument I disagree with your assertion that using the word free means what you think. You are making a semantic argument rather than a mechanical one and in the case of mechanics the meaning is the same. Humanoids have 2 hands, if they don't have both free, they take a penalty. It doesn't specify what is in your other hand only that you have both free, so it doesn't matter what you are holding just that you don't have a second hand free.
As for restraining someone with one hand it is quite easy and done in the real world all the time. Ask any Aikido or Judo student and they can describe any number of one handed hold that will leave an opponent grappled, pinned, or even choking.
The -20 penalty has one specific advantage that you are missing, and that is it doesn't leave you grappled. I also don't understand how these could ever stack as the -20 specifys one limb already and what you are saying is if I grab you one hand but the other hand is not free i get a penalty, as in that situation I don't see how if grabbing with one limb the others really make a difference at all.