So a druid wild shapes and decides to mate with an animal of the same type...what are the possibilities? There's a lot of mythological stories of this very thing, especially dealing with Loki, who gave birth to Sleipnir (and other less pleasant things) . Let's say there was only a 1% chance of offspring, what would they be like?
Ehm... there was some sort of consensus or ruling about that in 3.5 IIRC but I've completely forgotten what it was.
Seeing as a dragon shapeshifted as a human conceives a half-dragon with another human, genetics are somehow unaltered by the transmutation effect. So they'd probably conceive a human.
Not sure where the baby would go once the mother shifts again. Transmutation gets a bit weird with genetics and conservation of mass, organs, gear and, in this case, fetuses.
The baby would probably be touched by magic, so sorcerer or some sort of magic-touched humanoid seems appropriate.
See book of erotic fantasy
3.5 book covered this.
[url=http://www.amazon.com/Book-Erotic-Fantasy-Gwendolyn-Kestrel/dp/1588463990]
Make sure your GM and your group want to cover this in there game.
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I think this is where Sylvan bloodline sorcerers come from...
Ehm... there was some sort of consensus or ruling about that in 3.5 IIRC but I've completely forgotten what it was.
Seeing as a dragon shapeshifted as a human conceives a half-dragon with another human, genetics are somehow unaltered by the transmutation effect. So they'd probably conceive a human.
Not sure where the baby would go once the mother shifts again. Transmutation gets a bit weird with genetics and conservation of mass, organs, gear and, in this case, fetuses.
The baby would probably be touched by magic, so sorcerer or some sort of magic-touched humanoid seems appropriate.
2nd edition had a roleplaying dragon campaign and that covered half dragons as well.
There were 3 types of half dragons. Half-Silver, Half-Gold and Half-Bronze in descending order of numbers in the world. They would develop as a normal human or humanoid untill they reached puberty at which point the dragon heritage would come through and change the youth into an elflike stature with some dragon characteristics like Golden/Silver/Bronze eyes and some scales as well. Fingers would become somewhat clawlike and function as a weapon and even some wings would be sprouting from their shoulders. They could be any class they wanted and even had option as multiclass. The sort of parent dragon (ALWAYS male dragons) would give certain stat boosts to the character as well. Half dragons would most likely be outcasts even in the more civilized silver dragon society and tended to be chaotic in nature although any alignment was allowed. They typically had life spans in the regions of elves, but rarely reached their full life span as dragons in general tended to treat half-dragons as abominations.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Worship Lamashtu, then the possibilities are endless!
As has been pointed out, The Book of Erotic Fantasy covers this a bit.
Was the Druid Human. Rules-wise it's implied that Humans and Dragons, especially with the aid of magic, can breed with nearly anything so an offspring would surely arise. Even so a Druid would have enough latent magical potency to where the offspring would be of the animal's type but potentially be a sorcerer and sapient. Another possibility is a shapeshifter animal or Lycanthrope.
I had something similar happen in one of my campaigns to explain the origins of Werewolves. From experience I would be careful because werewolf sex did cause some out of character friction between two of my players in that game but if everyone is mature about it, it should be fine.
The breeding chart in TBoEF does not say whether or not this is possible but there are a lot of implications in Pathfinder's rules that say such a thing has been done.
Rules-wise it's implied that Humans and Dragons, especially with the aid of magic, can breed with nearly anything so an offspring would surely arise
Huh... I never realized that's something humans and dragons shared. That makes for great fluff! I have to think about this, could be used in pretty cool ways.
Or a half Druid template! The resulting spawn whether animal, magical beast, or humanoid gains a natural ability to shapeshift, hmm this requires more thinking.
Hengeyokai are a race that are exactly that aren't they? Though a bit more spiritual in origin.
You (epi)genitically inherit your parent's job? Rather Lamarckian.
Thing is, wizards and sorcerers can do the exact same thing as druids. It's basically the spell Beast Shape. They just have to ahem... 'finish' within 1 minute per level.
Would the child of a Beast-Shaped wizard and/or sorcerer also be a half-druid? :P
A lot of great ideas! But what about if the offspring took after the animal parent? For example a wolf with a human father? It would have been raised in the wild by a wolf pack not by humans. Maybe the animal is born awakened? How would the wolf feel? Would it gather a army of wolves to attack civilization for revenge? A lot of possibilities...
Well if it was awakened as per the spell it probably wouldn't have much luck gathering and organizing an army of wolves. It would likely just be a sorcerer and ponder it's place in life as it became more and more powerful until it sought out something that it could truly communicate with. Emotially it would probably have similar feelings as Tieflings and Aasimar.
Well if it was awakened as per the spell it probably wouldn't have much luck gathering and organizing an army of wolves.
I would think it would have better luck if it had a high intelligence. Its possible an awakened wolf could have 18 intelligence, 9 charisma, and 4 HD. Its still a wolf, just capable of speech and pretty darn intelligence and charismatic, possibly even more so than a normal person!
Emotially it would probably have similar feelings as Tieflings and Aasimar.
How so? A teifling or assimar is a fluke that shows up every know and then, while an animal born to a druid is... slightly more intentional and within one generation of its strange parent and the cause of its oddity.
I mean in the sense of having expectations thrown on it that it doesn't quite understand and feeling otherworldly compared to either of it's kin.
I mean in the sense of having expectations thrown on it that it doesn't quite understand and feeling otherworldly compared to either of it's kin.
With 18 intelligence I'd understand them pretty well! Besides, good chance dad is around to explain I shouldn't blame the stork for it.
I mean in the sense of having expectations thrown on it that it doesn't quite understand and feeling otherworldly compared to either of it's kin.With 18 intelligence I'd understand them pretty well! Besides, good chance dad is around to explain I shouldn't blame the stork for it.
Assuming the dad is still around he'd still feel emotionally confused. "Daddy, why do you walk on two legs and I don't?" "Why do people look at me with disgust and horror when I tell them who my parents are?" Sure he'd understand the concepts but I have enough anxieties in life from being a regular human I can't imagine being a Mensa-dog with a human daddy.
These are definitely interesting thoughts in this thread. I guess if the druid was evil, or a more militant Neutral (the kind that thinks humans [and other intelligent races] expanding into animal territory should be stopped by any means necessary), raising an "army" of intelligent animals who ultimately share his ideals probably would be feasible. Sure, he could just cast Awaken on some animals, but that gets rather expensive (2,000 gp per animal). This way would take longer, having to wait until the offspring are grown, but cheaper. Especially if said couplings would produce multiple offspring.
Of course, them being "awakened" would be completely up to the GM. But then, there's no guarantee that the PCs (if the druid is a villain) would know he got funky with some animals and not just have used the spell anyway.
Thing is, wizards and sorcerers can do the exact same thing as druids. It's basically the spell Beast Shape. They just have to ahem... 'finish' within 1 minute per level.
Well, a Wizard would at have at least 5 turns, a Sorcerer 6, a...
Well, like I said earlier, my hypothesis is that genetics are not changed by shapeshifting. It's just the shape not the 'content' that's changed (otherwise a natural shifter would not be able to shift back).
If a shifted dragon conceives a half-dragon with a human, the ahem.... ammo in his gun has apparently not changed when he changed from a shotgun to a pistol.
So a human shifted to a wolf would not be able to conceive with a wolf at all.
[Edit]: also the idea of a druid raising an army of awakened animal offspring is quite literally an option in Exalted, which has been used by NPCs in the past. The lycantropish Lunar exalted conceive half-human half-animal beast men if they have sex with an animal while the Exalted is in human form and or with a human when the Exalted is in animal form. (yeah.... ew)
What happens if its not a mammalian shape? What if its say, spider shape? Do the hundreds of fertilized eggs turn into human fetuses?
That's where things like kitsunes come from.
A savvy GM with his own setting could rule shapeshifted intercourse as being the source of Lycanthropy.
As a side question inkaos already touched:
What happens if a pregnant woman is polymorphed? Is the baby polymorphed alongside her?
What if the woman is turned into a man by a polymorph spell?
What if a woman turned into a man, gets off, is turned back into a woman and then is careless with her sticky fingers, can she impregnate herself?
I doubt that any answer will be fully satisfactory to everyone due to the inherent vagueness about transmutation and genetics in PF but anyway... Just following the logic of what is already in the system I'll repeat and elaborate on some of the things I mentioned earlier.
What happens if its not a mammalian shape? What if its say, spider shape? Do the hundreds of fertilized eggs turn into human fetuses?
Shapeshifted Dragons conceive Half-Dragons, despite taking humanoid form. Therefore a male Dragons' sperm cells still carry Draconic DNA and females still carry ova with Draconic DNA (or whatever Dragons use as gametes).
Since there are also Half-Dragons of Dragon types that do not have some sort of inherent shapeshifting, these Dragons must have used some sort of sorcerer/wizard spell, which are basic transmutation effects, like Wild Shape.
So, Wild Shaped druids are subject to the same rules as Dragons, whose gametes seem to be unchanged during shapeshifting. It follows that this is the case for druids as well.
Humanoids can only procreate with sufficiently similar humanoid races (I'm counting the fact that Dragons seem to be able to conceive with almost anything under the 'Dragons are superior' trope).
If humanoids can only procreate with similar humanoids, two shapeshifted druids will conceive a human baby, despite their new forms. A shapeshifted druid with an animal will not conceive. A shapeshifted druid with a human (ew) will conceive a human child.
In no case will a spider-shaped druid carry hundreds of fetuses.
What happens if a pregnant woman is polymorphed? Is the baby polymorphed alongside her?
Like I said earlier, the rules on transmutation effects are a bit weird in this case. Gear melds into your body and your organs change/disappear/meld into your body (e.g. natural armor disappears, claws, bites, hair, multiple eyes, etc...). It would follow that gametes and fetuses would also do the same.
But as we saw earlier, Draconic gametes are unaltered by transmutation, so they are probably an exception to the other organs. The same would probably also hold true for fertilized ova (which are fused gametes). Logic would probably dictate that the fertilized ovum is considered a separate being from the mother.
Wild Shape is a personal effect with a target of 'you' so the baby would probably not shape with the mother (no clue how this would work when shifting to smaller animals).
I'm unaware of a ruling about what happens to the victim of a Swallow Whole when the swallower shapeshifts (or what happens to the swallower) but the same ruling would probably apply to the fetus and the shapeshifting mother.
What if the woman is turned into a man by a polymorph spell?
As I stated earlier, gametes seem to be unchanged, so she'd be infertile. No clue what happens to the baby.
What if a woman turned into a man, gets off, is turned back into a woman and then is careless with her sticky fingers, can she impregnate herself?
Ditto, she'd be infertile
"It's magic!" - That gets us beyond the whole bit about mixing DNA.
Sure that explains the DNA mixing part but my point was that the cells responsible for conception (which are essentially organs) seem to remain unchanged. The DNA mixture part was to illustrate that.
The point is that the 'content' of reproductive equipment seems to be exempt from transmutation.
Also the reproductive systems of mammals are not very similar to one-another (sure a bit more than Dragons), if only due to dietary differences and the size and shape of the womb and birth canal.
This is only marginally related, but I can tell you why there are no half-mermaid, half-humans running around-
A fish generally reproduces by laying its eggs, then the male sprays his seed over the eggs to fertilize them. Telling you, there must be a lot of disappointing adventurers/sailors out there after seducing a mermaid.
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This is only marginally related, but I can tell you why there are no half-mermaid, half-humans running around-
A fish generally reproduces by laying its eggs, then the male sprays his seed over the eggs to fertilize them. Telling you, there must be a lot of disappointing adventurers/sailors out there after seducing a mermaid.
You watched a rerun of Futurama didn't you? :P
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A female fetus has about 4 million eggs. At birth, this is down to a million. She keeps losing them until menarche, when one egg starts ovulating every month or so, for a space of about 30-40 years, or a few hundred eggs. Meanwhile, she keeps losing the inactive eggs, and has none left at menopause. While I am sure this is not exactly written in stone, there is probably an individual variability here, the general trend is likely much the same.
As a GM, I would rule the "pregnant wildshaped druidess" like this: It's RARE IN THE EXTREME. Still, it could absolutely happen. It's too much of a mythological motif not to keep. Say, once every few centuries in the entire world, or so.
So a druid wild shapes and decides to mate with an animal of the same type...what are the possibilities? There's a lot of mythological stories of this very thing, especially dealing with Loki, who gave birth to Sleipnir (and other less pleasant things) . Let's say there was only a 1% chance of offspring, what would they be like?The Hellknights have been notified of your post and will be there shortly to "collect you". Please do not resist.
What did he do that was illegal? She was of age and he was the same species. Good luck arresting a bear in a forest...
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They're Hellknights, they'll arrest every single bear in the forest for defecation without a license.
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And treants for making a ruckus when they fall down.
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If a druid were to do this...
I'd think they'd have to observe all of the normal mating habits/rituals for said animal in order to get it to cooperate.
I don't think most animals would be appreciative of it being forced on them if the conditions weren't correct.
Unless perhaps it was a dolphin...
"Crimes against nature"? The same nature that features cross-species rape (otters to young dolphins, bottlenose dolphins to anything else), senseless cross-species torture (bottlenose dolphins) and interspecies necrophelia (mallards)?
A wild shaped druid mating with an animal of the same species seems positively normal compared to that.
If anything, restraining your urges is 'unnatural'
Unless of course those urges are to have sex with animals, alive or dead, or torture them (or people).
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I'm not saying it's healthy. Just saying nature is messed up
Might've come out a bit harsh and/or weird, sorry. It's just that in general blindly considering "natural" to be good, moral or desirable is a bit of an annoyance to me.
[Edit]: also a bit off topic, I'll shut up now :)
There are evil druids so I don't think nature would mind if a druid did this. I mean, nature is responsible for duck sex.
And yeah, dolphins are pretty much murderous, rapey, thrill killers with occasional inter species fetishes.
There was this one experiment... http://www.cracked.com/article_20119_6-elaborate-science-experiments-done-j ust-hell-it_p2.html
"It's magic!" - That gets us beyond the whole bit about mixing DNA.
So, unless we constantly have a magical field around the mother, the foetus will have to be somewhat combatible with her body or it won't survive (or possibly she won't survive).
Male dragon takes on human form and sleeps with a woman. She is incapable of bearing eggs without the aid of outside magic. A viable foetus will be mostly humanish, but the child may have some draconic features.
Female dragon takes on human form and sleeps with a man. Her reproductive system is based on laying eggs, so without the aid of outside magic a viable foetus will be mostly draconic, but the child may have some humanish features.
To make sure there would be no discusion about that possibility the dragon campaign stated that a human/demihuman could NOT .. EVER .. fertilize a dragon. So only a Male dragon could fertilize a female demihuman or human.
As the child grows older then physical features of their other parent may manifest.
Two mammals of different species would be a little more random because the female reproductive system of both species are more similar. Still, I would default to the child takes after its mother.
The dragon campaign stated that the draconic features appeared at puberty and all half dragons (regardless of being of dwarven, gnome or even elf origin) become elf shaped humanoids with dragon eyes, some scales, claws and rudimentary wings attached to it's shoulders.