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What is the DC of SU bard abilities when they say "allow the same saving throw" of spell X?
It is 10+ cha bonus + level of the spell x?
Or 10 + cha bonus + 1/2 bard level?
There is an example amply debated in this thread from this point onward, the Thundercaller Thunder Call ability:
Thunder Call (Su): At 3rd level, the thundercaller can use her performance to unleash a deafening peal of thunder. This allows the thundercaller to spend a round of performance to create an effect similar to the spell sound burst (having the same range and area and allowing the same saving throw). At 7th level, the sonic damage that is dealt by this blast of sound increases to 3d8. This damage further increases to 5d8 at 11th level, 7d8 at 15th level, and 9d8 at 19th level.
This performance replaces inspire competence.
Having "the same saving throw" mean "having a Fortitude save" or having a DC of 10 + cha bonus +2 as sound burst is a second level spell?
My gut tells me it has to use SU general DC or it (and any similar abilities.) are pretty much worthless.
FAQed. Very interested in this one.
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It seems to me that "same saving throw" is in reference to having a Fort save to have the damage and negate the stun. If it was supposed to use the actual level of the spell to determine the DC, it would usually be a SLA. I can see where there's room for interpretation, but to my mind RAI is fairly clear. Of course, it's up to the GM at the time.
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My gut tells me it has to use SU general DC or it (and any similar abilities.) are pretty much worthless.
FAQed. Very interested in this one.
While I agree, I can't find a piece of the rules stating that the default DC of SU abilities id 10+1/2HD+relevant characteristic bonus.
The nearest thing to that is in the monster creation rules.
Most special abilities that cause damage, such as breath weapons, give a save (Fortitude, Reflex, or Will depending on the ability). The DC for almost all special abilities is equal to 10 + 1/2 the creature's Hit Dice + a relevant ability modifier (usually Constitution or Charisma depending on the ability). Special abilities that add to melee and ranged attacks generally do not allow a save, as they rely on the attacks hitting to be useful.
Close enough, but it is a Bestiary rule, not the CRB. That make it a bit awkward to use it for characters abilities and the "almost all" part open it to a lot of debate.
Note that it refer all special abilities, not specifically supernatural abilities.
@Sesharan: good argument.
FAQed.
I agree with Stome: Very interested in this one.
My gut tells me it has to use SU general DC or it (and any similar abilities.) are pretty much worthless.
FAQed. Very interested in this one.
While I agree, I can't find a piece of the rules stating that the default DC of SU abilities id 10+1/2HD+relevant characteristic bonus.
The nearest thing to that is in the monster creation rules.
Most special abilities that cause damage, such as breath weapons, give a save (Fortitude, Reflex, or Will depending on the ability). The DC for almost all special abilities is equal to 10 + 1/2 the creature's Hit Dice + a relevant ability modifier (usually Constitution or Charisma depending on the ability). Special abilities that add to melee and ranged attacks generally do not allow a save, as they rely on the attacks hitting to be useful.Close enough, but it is a Bestiary rule, not the CRB. That make it a bit awkward to use it for characters abilities and the "almost all" part open it to a lot of debate.
Note that it refer all special abilities, not specifically supernatural abilities.
@Sesharan: good argument.
Yeah oddly that is the only entry on I I can find as well. Though in 3.5 it I clearly stated in a number of places. Strange.
I too have hit the FAQ button. I notice that the Alchemist explicitly mentions the DC for Bomb related effects whereas the Bard doesn't have anything like that. Still, it kind of makes sense to me that the Bard's supernatural abilities should scale like others.
I think it's pretty clear that it allows a Fortitude save, not that it uses the strictly inferior spell save DC formula. That said, I FAQed it anyway.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Wish this would be answered, but it's hard to get non-core FAQ'd. Anyone know who the author of this particular archetype is, and how they intended for this to work?
So there are a couple possibilities, and until this is FAQ it will be table variance.
The default of Supernatural abilities is Half Bard level, and the author added the allowing the same saving throw language:
- 1) He didn't understand the default assumption of Su saves.
- 2) He did and intentionally limited the saves to +2 (2nd level) instead.
- 3) He only intended to specify the Fortitude save and it uses Half Bard formula.
I don't know that it needs FAQing. Standard (Su) is 10+1/2HD+cha. If this were to use a non-standard saving throw it would need to say so. When the rules say 'almost all' the exceptions are always called out.
To the best of my knowledge, just because a rule is found in the bestiary doesn't invalidate it in any way.
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No I didn't miss it. To elaborate though:
It's a bit of a stretch to read 'allowing the same saving throw' to mean you completely alter the normal rules for (Su) abilities, when it is much more likely to simply mean 'allows a fortitude save to negate stun'. Infinitely more so when taken in the context of the sentence as a whole.
Is it really going to read: "it has the same range and area as soundburst and completely changes the way saves for (Su) abilities works, oh! and we're not going to tell you whether you get a save or whether, if allowed, said save is fortitude, reflex or will".
Because in essence that's what the alternate reading amounts to.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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It's a bit of a stretch to read 'allowing the same saving throw' to mean you completely alter the normal rules
Su abilities normally don't do spell effects, that is something that Sp abilities tend to do. So it already completely alters the normal Su rules.
Ultimately, there isn't enough information for any of us to know which way is RAI or RAW. There isn't enough of the rule to clarify how it works.
It's a bit of a stretch to read 'allowing the same saving throw' to mean you completely alter the normal rulesSu abilities normally don't do spell effects, that is something that Sp abilities tend to do. So it already completely alters the normal Su rules.
Ultimately, there isn't enough information for any of us to know which way is RAI or RAW. There isn't enough of the rule to clarify how it works.
I respectfully disagree.
First in the context of the sentence it is clear that it is a list of the spell effects in order. there is no indication that it changes the fundamental nature of the rules.
Surely a rule is only changed in so much as it is expressly altered? It borders on the irrational to assume that just because one aspect of a rule is changed then the rest of the rules no longer apply. It must be the case that when one aspect of a rule is expressly altered, then other aspects of that rule are unchanged (except where a domino effect is inevitable - which is certainly far from the case here).
Further, the alternate reading is completely nonsensical. We all know English can be less than precise, and when given two alternate ways to read an ability surely you can safely discount the one that makes no sense? Unless you can rephrase the essence of the alternate reading so that it makes more sense?
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I respectfully disagree.
Further, the alternate reading is completely nonsensical. We all know English can be less than precise, and when given two alternate ways to read an ability surely you can safely discount the one that makes no sense?
I make it a point to never discount someone's opinion on how to read a rule and I'm totally fine playing a table with a GM who reads a rule different than I do.
As far as giving you the essence, I'm not sure what you are asking. I suspect if you don't immediately see it now then there isn't going to be much I can say to make it click to you.
This thread wouldn't exist if there wasn't confusion about how it reads. So either you concede it isn't clear which way it works RAW, or this thread will never end.
Is the saving throw of the spell "DC X Fort" or is it "Fort"?
The spell's DC will change with the caster's mod. It cannot have a fixed DC. So "allowed" a save like the spell cannot refer to a fixed DC.
Do any spells have a DC listed? I don't think so.
In case anyone wants to read it, link to the PRD.
/cevah
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Is the saving throw of the spell "DC X Fort" or is it "Fort"?
The spell's DC will change with the caster's mod. It cannot have a fixed DC. So "allowed" a save like the spell cannot refer to a fixed DC.
Do any spells have a DC listed? I don't think so.
In case anyone wants to read it, link to the PRD.
/cevah
The question was not, "Is it a set saving throw?", but "How is the saving throw for this ability calculated?"
Option A: Bad language from the author, and all he meant was that it, like the spell it emulates, uses a Fort save to negate the stun, but uses the standard SU calculation for DC of 10 + 1/2 Thundercaller level + Cha mod. Makes it, once the Bard hits 6th level, much stronger than the actual spell.
Option B: Still bad language from the author, but the meaning is that it uses a save modeled after the spell's save, so still a Fort save to negate the sun, but the DC becomes 10 + Cha mod + 2 (from the spell). This leaves the save easier to make, especially at higher levels, but doesn't completely follow the normal rules for Su abilities.
Then again, this should probably be errataed to an SLA that mimics Sound Burst, as that would return it to follow normal Su & SLA set-up.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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So the best thing would probably to get the author to give us an inkling as to the RAI at least. Any idea who that might be?
Keep in mind the RAI of the Author is often different than the RAI of the developers. There were many things changed from Author to Print. One example was Titan Mauler. It had a very different RAI than the RAI of the Developers and the rules were drastically changed between Author hand off and print.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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Hmm fair enough. Is there a particular developer that should be consulted in this then?
The Developer team is mostly in charge of the core books (UC/UM/APG/ACG/Core/B1, etc) and James Jacobs was at once (maybe still is) in charge of FAQ both rules and lore for the non core things.
Thunderstriker is in UC, so it is some the Dev team should be able to rule on a FAQ. Our only way to contact them is to make a thread, tag a post as FAQ, and get 80+ people to also tag as FAQ and wait until they answer it in a FAQ Friday.
If it isn't a Core item, you can ask James Jacobs in his Ask me Questions. His ruling on non-core items is the closest thing to a rules answer you can get.
Oh no, not the Sound Striker again!
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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James Jacobs' response!
Awesome!
For reference, that is how I'd rule it in my games. The default SU way.
Cool, that makes Thunder Call a reasonably powerful ability in my opinion. Did we ever find out if it can be used 3 times per round or just 1? I'm personally hoping just 1...
I'm not sure whether everybody should be limited to 1 bardic performance per round (which the rules seem to imply) or Thunder Call should be specifically limited to once per round, but 3 stun attacks per round with a fairly high DC plus some decent ancillary damage seems over the top to me. I like the idea of the Thunder Caller archetype, but it seems like the sort of thing which would end up feeling overpowered in play.
Official Rules Response
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Abilities that work “as a spell”: How do I calculate the DC of an ability that says it works as or like a particular spell?
Some abilities that work as a spell tell you what their DC is, like the bard’s fascinate performance. An ability that doesn’t tell you anything about its DC has a DC of 10 + the spell level + the key spellcasting ability score of the class that granted it (or Charisma otherwise). In the case of a spell with multiple spell levels, use the spell level from the class that granted the ability if that class has the spell on its spell list, and otherwise use the spell level that’s most appropriate (usually sorcerer/wizard for an arcane ability, cleric for a divine ability, and psychic for a psychic ability).
Technically, since wild shape / polymorph itself doesn't have its own DC (but instead grants other abilities that aren't spells), this FAQ still hasn't answered that question yet. But you should be good to go with plenty of SLAs and Su that mimic spells with a DC (like the psychic's detect thoughts), and there are numerous of those.
Beast-bonded witch's twin soul got nerfed. But now it's clear at least and players wont have to discuss with GM why DC is not based on charisma based on obscure 3rd edition rules.