They may want them acquired."Re-appropriated."
Secured for the "Public Good."
I think the Lawfull thief contradicts itself. I would be ok with a Lawful good rogue that doesn't get the skill sleight of hand. So it would be more of a scout trying to remain hidden while investigating the enemy and penatrating the enemies camps in an effort to scout the place and gaining a serious advantage against the enemy. All other skills can be used lawfully without problem.
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I think the Lawfull thief contradicts itself. I would be ok with a Lawful good rogue that doesn't get the skill sleight of hand. So it would be more of a scout trying to remain hidden while investigating the enemy and penatrating the enemies camps in an effort to scout the place and gaining a serious advantage against the enemy. All other skills can be used lawfully without problem.
Being Lawful does not mean always acting lawfully (ie, according to the current and local law) ;-)
I think the Lawfull thief contradicts itself. I would be ok with a Lawful good rogue that doesn't get the skill sleight of hand. So it would be more of a scout trying to remain hidden while investigating the enemy and penatrating the enemies camps in an effort to scout the place and gaining a serious advantage against the enemy. All other skills can be used lawfully without problem.Being Lawful does not mean always acting lawfully (ie, according to the current and local law) ;-)
I actually thinks it means exactly that, unless laws would be obviously unfair or evil. It doesn't mean a lawfull character will never break the law, I agree to that, but the character would need a serious reason for not following the law. And two wrongs make a right is not a valid point of view for a lawfull character in my opinion. Bringing the offender to justice is the way to go I think.
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I can't believe nobody has yet mentioned the Ankh-Morpork Guild of Thieves, Cutpurses and Allied Trades.
I think the Lawfull thief contradicts itself. I would be ok with a Lawful good rogue that doesn't get the skill sleight of hand. So it would be more of a scout trying to remain hidden while investigating the enemy and penatrating the enemies camps in an effort to scout the place and gaining a serious advantage against the enemy. All other skills can be used lawfully without problem.That's why I really hate the subjective terms they use for alignments. Lawful immediately illicits thoughts of legality when what it really means is "conservative" or "code-bound". If you have a personal code of behavior that you strictly follow, that is Lawful even if you have complete contempt and disregard for any other legal matters. The Lawful thief simply has a personal code, a personal measure of right and wrong that he strictly sticks to even if he disregards what he considers to be "lesser" laws. He may even believe that these "lesser" laws don't even have a right to exist. A Monk can easily fit into this motif; they believe in a martial arts code that doesn't necessarily beholden itself to the laws of city or country.
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By making your own rules and/or code of conduct that only affects yourself, you effectively break laws that govern all, making you not lawfull. The fact that there are rules you will play by doesn't make one lawfull, Lawfull means following Laws that are made for everyone to follow.
Lawfull evil means using the letter of the law, that governs all, to gain maximum advantage for yourself.
The very meaning of deciding the laws do not apply to you because you find them 'lesser laws' makes you chaotic.
Lawfull good characters could claim laws as being unfair if those laws aren't for the good of society as a whole, but downright ignoring them would be difficult if the law was put in place justly. That would make a lawful good character advocate a change of laws by trying to get it annulled or changed. An chaotic character will simply ignore the law.
And Kazaan I would like to add that this is nothing personal. I respect your opinion, but just disagree with you.
Following the law of the land is lawful but following your own code is also lawful.
Alignment has a lot of problems but one is that most fantasy/rpg worlds are fragmentary and either based on a feudal model or a savage world with many cities, small countries, tribes, etc. Thus the "law" can change every 20 miles. In such a situation an inner code makes sense as a basis for lawful behavior. That is sometimes hard for us as real people that live in countries that sometimes stretch for thousands of miles all with the same law system.
Except that laws don't govern all. Laws in one country don't apply to another. Laws in one part of a country don't necessarily even apply to another. Businesses can set down laws for themselves; whether or not those laws are within the bounds of the applicable governmental laws is inconsequential. A person can set down personal laws as a personal code of conduct, again, regardless of what governmental or civil laws may apply. A Chaotic person, by contrast, just does what he wants. He may have a code of conduct, but it's a set of guidelines more than anything and he feels free to step outside of them to accomplish his goals. They're there to make things easier for him (killing people means that someone will come looking for revenge, so I don't kill people) but he'll break his code if there's something greater at stake. Magic users change the laws of nature to suit them and deities have their own laws that they follow; some as common laws to a group, others as a law they contrive and enforce on an individual basis. Lawfulness is about discipline and structure; whether that be on a personal basis, a cooperative one, or a...By making your own rules and/or code of conduct that only affects yourself, you effectively break laws that govern all, making you not lawfull. The fact that there are rules you will play by doesn't make one lawfull, Lawfull means following Laws that are made for everyone to follow.
Lawfull evil means using the letter of the law, that governs all, to gain maximum advantage for yourself.
The very meaning of deciding the laws do not apply to you because you find them 'lesser laws' makes you chaotic.
Lawfull good characters could claim laws as being unfair if those laws aren't for the good of society as a whole, but downright ignoring them would be difficult if the law was put in place justly. That would make a lawful good character advocate a change of laws by trying to get it annulled or changed. An chaotic character will simply...
Then let me explain more specifically what I mean by the laws that govern all, the laws laid down by a local(government) or authority of some sort. And those laws would apply to anyone in the region. Whether or not they are upheld rigoursly depends on the strength of the authority.
The fact that someone ignores the law and lives by his own set of rules or conduct doesn't neccasarily make him/her lawfull although it might still be the case. A paladin for instance has a strong set of conduct that applies to his entire order and not just himself/herself and this usually does not violate the laws of (local)government.A guild of assasins has guild laws that apply to it's members and usually are in strong violation of the laws of (local)government. But the fact that the guild has rules doesn't make the members lawfull.
And I agree to your statement: Lawfulness is about discipline and structure, but I disagree with the personal basis in that statement. People making laws or conducts on a personal basis rarely are lawfull and usually try to violate the law big time. That's why the conduct is personal: it counts only for the benefactor and not for others. And I believe that's chaotic and not lawfull, as laws are communal and not personal.
Companies or guilds making their own law border the grey area and may well be lawfull if they respect or not conflict with the (local)laws.
Following the law of the land is lawful but following your own code is also lawful.
Following your own code does not neccasarily means lawfull as serial killer usually have a code of conduct of their own. Their behavior patterns can be deciphered and often predicted, but that does not make them lawfull.
Alignment has a lot of problems but one is that most fantasy/rpg worlds are fragmentary and either based on a feudal model or a savage world with many cities, small countries, tribes, etc. Thus the "law" can change every 20 miles. In such a situation an inner code makes sense as a basis for lawful behavior. That is sometimes hard for us as real people that live in countries that sometimes stretch for thousands of miles all with the same law system.
The fact that the law can be different in several places close together does not make those laws less lawfull. It just reduces their area of validity and it's confusing for characters to uphold the law as they need to be aware of differences in the (local) laws of diverse areas.
As a general rule I try to find wether or not the law of the strongest is in place. That's a sure sign of nonlawfull behaviour.
But that's only my opinion off course.
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Honestly, the whole idea of a thieves' guild never made any sense to me at all. You're talking about a business organization composed entirely of people whose only defining characteristic is their willingness to flout the property rights of others. It's only a matter of time before such an organization cannibalizes itself as members start stealing from each other. You can't suggest that they won't, because you've BUILT THE ENTIRE GUILD out of people who WILL steal things from other people. If Tom the Thief didn't listen to the king, the sheriff, or his knights when they told him everybody else's wealth is off-limits, why will he listen to you when you tell him that yours is?
The farthest I can stretch my disbelief to is that a circle of friends might take up theft as a hobby and share stories of their heists with each other. Maybe they'd share leads on promising marks, or buy stolen goods off of each other, and if they caught wind of someone else stealing stuff they might invite him to joint heir little social club, but they could never hope to actually operate as a guild that has active members in multiple cities/towns/villages and confers benefits onto its members.
I guess a lawful thief could be a member of such a group of thieving friends, but honestly that sounds more NG or CG to me.
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Silent Saturn, do you deny the existence of the mafia? Street gangs? Those are real world thieves guilds, if broader in scope.
You don't steal from your guildmates because your mates will murder you for it.
Being Lawful does not mean always acting lawfully (ie, according to the current and local law) ;-)I actually thinks it means exactly that, unless laws would be obviously unfair or evil.
Being Lawful means you believe there are right and wrong ways of doing things. Thus, laws can be Lawful or Chaotic depending on how they align with The One True Way. A person is not Lawful because he follows laws, that's pragmatism. A Lawful person will often follow laws, but is not defined by his following of those laws.
It would have been better if Law had instead been named Order when alignment was first written, but it was based off of the fiction of the time, many of which focused on the struggle of Law and Chaos.
A lawful thief can lawful to the guild. .
From the PRD "Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties"
A rogue can be all rogue as part of guild while telling the truth to his guild superiors, keeps his word with the guild, respect the guilds authority, honors the guilds traditions and judges those who fall short on their guild duties.
The good part is what gets in the way of being a rogue. Sound like most of the suggestion here are for Lawful Good not just Lawful.
Honestly, the whole idea of a thieves' guild never made any sense to me at all. You're talking about a business organization composed entirely of people whose only defining characteristic is their willingness to flout the property rights of others. It's only a matter of time before such an organization cannibalizes itself as members start stealing from each other. You can't suggest that they won't, because you've BUILT THE ENTIRE GUILD out of people who WILL steal things from other people. If Tom the Thief didn't listen to the king, the sheriff, or his knights when they told him everybody else's wealth is off-limits, why will he listen to you when you tell him that yours is?
The farthest I can stretch my disbelief to is that a circle of friends might take up theft as a hobby and share stories of their heists with each other. Maybe they'd share leads on promising marks, or buy stolen goods off of each other, and if they caught wind of someone else stealing stuff they might invite him to joint heir little social club, but they could never hope to actually operate as a guild that has active members in multiple cities/towns/villages and confers benefits onto its members.
I guess a lawful thief could be a member of such a group of thieving friends, but honestly that sounds more NG or CG to me.
A thieves guild is just organized crime. They have a hierarchy and strict enforcement of law with in the organization. That's why they don't steal from one another, the penalty for doing so could be very severe. A lawful thief would be on the look out for that to judge and enforce the laws of the guild. An chaotic thieve would break the rules all the time and probably end up getting caught and facing the consequences for going against the guild.
Think the Mafia and how they run today. That's a modern thieves guild.
I think the Lawfull thief contradicts itself. I would be ok with a Lawful good rogue that doesn't get the skill sleight of hand. So it would be more of a scout trying to remain hidden while investigating the enemy and penatrating the enemies camps in an effort to scout the place and gaining a serious advantage against the enemy. All other skills can be used lawfully without problem.
Have you read the Pathfinder definition of Lawful, I posted it earlier in this thread. This is why in my games I use the term "Order" instead of "Lawful."
Have you read the Pathfinder definition of Lawful, I posted it earlier in this thread. This is why in my games I use the term "Order" instead of "Lawful."
Agreed. This whole alignment paradigm traces back to Moorcock's Order vs Chaos.
It's just that Orderly Evil doesn't roll off the tongue like Lawful Evil.|
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TriOmegaZero, The Mafia and street gangs aren't "thieves' guilds" as they usually appear in fiction, though there are key similarities.
Street gangs are usually more like "Assault and Battery Guilds" or "Drug Merchants' Guilds" instead of true Thieves' Guilds. They operate more like militias who don't recognize the government's claim on "their territory", and the main reason to join one is to protect yourself from the other. If the Jets know you're a Shark, they'll hate you all the more but they're less likely to actually mug you because they know you've got friends who'll reciprocate. Any theft they commit is just a side effect of having already beaten you up anyway.
The Mafia is a closer fit, but it still looks more like "a group of friends who share illegal hobbies" or sometimes it's one guy (the Don) and a crowd of underlings and henchmen. While they definitely steal more than street gangs, they usually do it with embezzlement and intimidation tactics backed up by the occasional "cement shoe shine".
Thieves' Guilds, as portrayed in fiction, are focused on the art of burglarization. Their goal isn't just to rob you, but to keep you from ever finding out WHO robbed you. Lockpicks, felt-soled shoes, the whole nine yards. That, as an organization, can't really exist because:
1) The threat of punishment for betrayal doesn't hold water. The treacherous thief has already learned how to burglarize undetected, so his guildmates won't be able to pin it on him. And since the higher-ups explicity AREN'T coldblooded killers like in a street gang or Mafia, their punishment won't be severe enough to scare potential traitors into loyalty.
2) The organization is too secret to recruit new members. Up-and-coming thieves would be unlikely to accept an invitation because they've never heard of the Thieves' Guild-- they'd see the recruiter as a lone conman with a tall tale trying to swindle his way into a cut of the take. And if the Guild expects to maintain its secrecy, it can't offer membership to any thief it hasn't had a chance to properly investigate... and any aspiring thief the Guild is able to actually locate and pin crimes on probably isn't good enough to join.
3) If the organization isn't secret, then its members will inevitably either be caught or be forced to pay off law enforcers (which cuts into their profits).
Even better, create a law that adds "violate your Paladin's Code" to all Paladin Codes. If they follow through with it, they've violated their code, if they don't, they've also violated their code. Then grin with evil glee.Indeed. As I'm fond of mentioning whenever the "Lawful = always follows all the laws" idea comes out, that would mean that Evil Overlord Skullblight the Shadowmaster could make every single paladin fall just by creating a law that it's illegal to be a paladin.Well, I know that Lawful, does not mean following everyone's law, in every land, all the time.
That's just silly.
Cue Iomedae face-palming in Heaven.
TriOmegaZero, The Mafia and street gangs aren't "thieves' guilds" as they usually appear in fiction, though there are key similarities.
Street gangs are usually more like "Assault and Battery Guilds" or "Drug Merchants' Guilds" instead of true Thieves' Guilds. They operate more like militias who don't recognize the government's claim on "their territory", and the main reason to join one is to protect yourself from the other. If the Jets know you're a Shark, they'll hate you all the more but they're less likely to actually mug you because they know you've got friends who'll reciprocate. Any theft they commit is just a side effect of having already beaten you up anyway.
The Mafia is a closer fit, but it still looks more like "a group of friends who share illegal hobbies" or sometimes it's one guy (the Don) and a crowd of underlings and henchmen. While they definitely steal more than street gangs, they usually do it with embezzlement and intimidation tactics backed up by the occasional "cement shoe shine".
Thieves' Guilds, as portrayed in fiction, are focused on the art of burglarization. Their goal isn't just to rob you, but to keep you from ever finding out WHO robbed you. Lockpicks, felt-soled shoes, the whole nine yards. That, as an organization, can't really exist because:
1) The threat of punishment for betrayal doesn't hold water. The treacherous thief has already learned how to burglarize undetected, so his guildmates won't be able to pin it on him. And since the higher-ups explicity AREN'T coldblooded killers like in a street gang or Mafia, their punishment won't be severe enough to scare potential traitors into loyalty.
2) The organization is too secret to recruit new members. Up-and-coming thieves would be unlikely to accept an invitation because they've never heard of the Thieves' Guild-- they'd see the recruiter as a lone conman with a tall tale trying to swindle his way into a cut of the take. And if the Guild expects to maintain its secrecy, it can't offer membership to any thief it...
Funny one of my favorite fantasy series is based around a Criminal Organization. They commit murders, robberies, operate illegal gambling operations, sell illegal drugs, illegal magic, etc. You might want to check out the Vlad Taltos novels for a "Lawful" criminal organization.
The organization described in Elizabeth Moon's Paksenarrion trilogy and the follow on series is called a thieves guild and there are several passages of one of the members describing the rules and such.
BBT.... question.
You want a lawful 'Thief'. What's he going to steal? What's he doing? What's going to happen with <<whatever>> afterwards. Or are you after a way to play a Lawful char with a Thief skill set?
If your just after someone with appropriate sneak / hide / spot traps etc skills, an assassin concept could readily be what your after. Strict code (I don't kill people... unless I get paid, don't give up my employer etc etc etc). Nothing in 'assassin' really means your are OBVIOUSLY a homocidal manic.
Taking that sort of concept and just doing it as pure thief could be a just 'Hired Thief'. Not someone who steals for himself, but steals things for other people. Eg. That Noble stole my antique heirloom vase, and I want it back, but I don't want to cause a public political scene by getting to authorities involved. Flip side would be planting evidence at a site instead of removing objects. A rogue who can be trusted to keep his mouth shut could have a LOT of work in the political or commerce scene (spike that brew of mead with rat poison). He'd probably screen his targets a little so that anything he did wasn't going to upset the status quo or create a riot, but it's a thought.
Could alternately go for a more 'public' and less 'shadow ops' be a 'security consultant' who gets hired to test building security (A-la the beginning of Sneakers for those that have seen it). They attempt to sneak in not to steal things, but to test the building security. Write up a report to the bank afterwards on how that drainpipe needs to be moved or there's a hole in the guard's patrol routes etc.
Final option I can think of would just be a tomb crasher. Either in the employ of a university or the crown or a museum, someone who delves into long lost dungeons looking for the loot, in this case object d'art from forgotten civilisations or from era's long past. Difference being that in his case he's actually a sanctioned agent recovering them for the state or a university. What would set him apart from a standard 'bard archaeologist' archetype would be that while he might be INTERESTED in history, he might not have the intelligence or knowledge to be a true historian to that an archaeologist might. Rather handling the field work of clearing sites and getting things for a 'real' archaeologist that is 100 yards back, or an armchair archaeologist back in their wizard tower.
Dexter Morgan seems the perfect fit for LE.
What makes Dexter Evil though? Adventures of all alignments do exactly the same thing. They track down and kill the bad guy but usually do it for loot and can lawful good doing so.