What happens when two creatures occupy the same square? For instance, what happens when you bull rush someone into an ally's square? It says if you move both, they move, but are they in separate squares? Also, if you fail, your bullrush stops, but are they in the same square?
One thing that often happens is that I walk into the square with my unconscious/dead ally. I heal them or raise them, and now we're in the same square. Am I squeezing as long as they're prone? Am I squeezing if they stand up? Does someone get shoved out of the square?
As far as being unconscious, then healed to positive HP while an ally is standing over my prone character, in the 3.5 days JB once prohibited me from almost all action until I was the only character in the square. I think my choices were crawl or retrieve an item, maybe a couple of others. I understand this does not provide a RAW answer.
For the other stuff, if the rules don't spcifically spell it out, let your GM make those choices on the fly. The rules do expect a GM to do that once in a while.
|
Any time you end up in a square sharing space with someone else, the person who entered the square of another goes prone.
Would you point out where that rule is in the book?
As far as I was aware, if an action were to cause a character to end his turn in a square occupied by another creature, he is moved back to the last legal square.
Any time you end up in a square sharing space with someone else, the person who entered the square of another goes prone.
???
What happens when two creatures occupy the same square? For instance, what happens when you bull rush someone into an ally's square? It says if you move both, they move, but are they in separate squares? Also, if you fail, your bullrush stops, but are they in the same square?
One thing that often happens is that I walk into the square with my unconscious/dead ally. I heal them or raise them, and now we're in the same square. Am I squeezing as long as they're prone? Am I squeezing if they stand up? Does someone get shoved out of the square?
When moving two people with bull rush, they both move, maintaining their 5' separation as if you we're pushing blocks in a puzzle game. Nobody squeezes. Similarly, if your bull rush is stopped, you don't move them; you're in the same square you were in when you took the bull rush action. For a charging bull rush, that would be the spot where the charge ended adjacent to the foe.
For healing, it's simpler to avoid the issue by healing them from 5' away.
This may not be RAW but heres they way I usually rule on it:
Any two willing PCs/NPCs/monsters can squthe same space but they are denied their dex bonus to AC. If either of the creatures are unwilling they cannot share spaces (unless grappled of course).
I would use the squeezing rules if two people are in the same square for some reason that doesn't have another rule adjudicating the resolution (like bull rush does). If you cast create pit and two ogres fall into it for example I would rule both ogres are squeezed into the one square at the bottom. Really squares are pretty big areas that can easily fit two people, but it would restrict their movements and I think the squeezing rules reflect that well. So use the squeezing rules if the situation causes two people to occupy the same square. I don't think there is a RAW ruling on what to do this would be a table ruling/house rule.
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This may not be RAW but heres they way I usually rule on it:
One should always look up a rule before posting. I was in error above. You don't go prone:
Core p194: "Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal
position that’s closer."
I heal them or raise them, and now we're in the same square. Am I squeezing as long as they're prone? Am I squeezing if they stand up? Does someone get shoved out of the square?
You can occupy a square with a prone ally or foe without squeezing.
If they stand up they are moved to the closest legal square.
What if you are bull rushing someone and miss solely because the defender has concealment (in darkness or invisible target)? Do you stop before the defender's square, end in the target's square, or brush by and go past their square?
You cannot "brush by" their square (assuming you mean move through their square as opposed to going around it - the former is against the RAW and the latter is no longer a bullrush but just a move that provokes normally).
You would stop in the last legal space you moved through. Missing them because of concealment doesn't mean you fail to stop moving - you might still run into them, harmlessly, shoulder to shoulder or something, enough that it stops your movement without allowing you to pass through.
What if you are bull rushing someone and miss solely because the defender has concealment (in darkness or invisible target)? Do you stop before the defender's square, end in the target's square, or brush by and go past their square?
The concealment makes no difference. You stop before the defender's square. The bull rusher doesn't just miss; she fails to move the defender. This manifests in whatever way makes sense--maybe the invisible target just sticks a hand out like he's holding back a toddler trying to hit him, and the bull rusher can't adjust to compensate.
or unusually small Tarrasque.
I think I'm offended.
You've somehow managed to injure my armored sensibilities. As soon as they regenerate, I'm gonna come CHOMP you with my armored teeth.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The idea of a Tiny tarrasque is going to be on my mind all day now.\
Giles: Oh, bloody hell. The inscription.
Buffy: What's the matter?
Giles: I should've translated the Gaelic inscription under the illustration of Gachnar.
Buffy: What's it say?
Giles: Actual size.
You can occupy a square with a prone ally or foe without squeezing.
If they stand up they are moved to the closest legal square.
I agree, but I don't have a rule to quote. Is this just common practice that we've learned?
I agree, but I don't have a rule to quote. Is this just common practice that we've learned?You can occupy a square with a prone ally or foe without squeezing.
If they stand up they are moved to the closest legal square.
James quoted it above, it sort of applies:
Core p194: "Accidentally Ending Movement in an Illegal Space: Sometimes a character ends its movement while moving through a space where it’s not allowed to stop. When that happens, put your miniature in the last legal position you occupied, or the closest legal position, if there’s a legal
position that’s closer."
So if your ally is prone, you can easily walk into his space and heal him. When he stands up, he could end his turn in your (plural) shared space. If he does that, the quoted rule on P.194 would be invoked.
However...
Him standing up is not "accidentally ending movement". It would be deliberate, not accidental. So the rule might not apply.
As a GM, I would disallow it for that reason. I would insist that the guy standing up must also use movement to exit the shared space. For example, stand as a move action, take a 5'-Step to an adjacent square, and he'd still have a standard action left for whatever he wanted.
But I'm not sure that it MUST be disallowed on the accidental/deliberate premise.
Sorry, I meant I agree with this part, but don't have a rule quote for it:
You can occupy a square with a prone ally or foe without squeezing.
Happens all the time with stepping into a downed ally's square, who gets healed (much more often with channel energy I suppose).
Sorry, I meant I agree with this part, but don't have a rule quote for it:You can occupy a square with a prone ally or foe without squeezing.Happens all the time with stepping into a downed ally's square, who gets healed (much more often with channel energy I suppose).
The rules only cover helpless, which is a separate condition from prone (and either can happen without the other). Again, you're better off casting your healing spell from five feet away.
Precisely - and I think your solution (A must move out asap) is appropriate.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Sorry, I meant I agree with this part, but don't have a rule quote for it:You can occupy a square with a prone ally or foe without squeezing.Happens all the time with stepping into a downed ally's square, who gets healed (much more often with channel energy I suppose).
Core p193: "Opponent: You can’t move through a square occupied by an opponent unless the opponent is helpless. You can move through a square occupied by a helpless opponent without penalty."
Core p568: "A creature can move through a space occupied by a paralyzed creature—ally or not. Each square occupied by a paralyzed creature, however, counts as 2 squares to move through."
It is interesting that Helpless allows you to Charge through and otherwise move freely but even slightly better in the form of Paralyzed counts as difficult terrain.
So it would seem that you can't occupy the same space as a prone ally or opponent.
Wait, you can move through a healthy ally's square without penalty, but if they're paralyzed suddenly there's a penalty?
That's stretching the bounds of my ability to rationalize in-game.
|
Owner - D20 Hobbies
|
Wait, you can move through a healthy ally's square without penalty, but if they're paralyzed suddenly there's a penalty?
That's stretching the bounds of my ability to rationalize in-game.
My guess is the paralyzed guy is posed in an awkward way that makes it more difficult to navigate around him.
Heh, whatever works.
The problem I have with all these responses is that they mandate player actions, which I don't do (and may not even be possible if you're surrounded), give free movement, which I'm uncomfortable with (as it'll be taken advantage of), and don't really answer the question.
Based on RAW, If two characters end up occupying the same square, what is the IG effect? Does it matter if one or both are prone? Does it effect flanking?
I can't tell.
Without these rules, your spellcasting opponent in a dead end 5' corridor with two minions between them and the characters is invulnerable to melee weapons. Those minions are invulnerable to bull rush, as well. Correct?
Based on RAW,There is no RAW for some of this, so it is handled by each individual DM.
Thanks!