So, Mythic Realms came out on Wednesday. That's pretty sweet. It's packed with information on mythic locations, legendary foes, and founts of mythic power where the characters can achieve their ascension to mythic power. All-in-all, it's pretty great, except there's this one big problem sitting between pages 16 and 17. Can you guess what it is?
I can't really stress how disappointed I am with this development. First and foremost, this is an utter betrayal of the lore. Why, do you ask? Because the starstone in Pathfinder Chronicles lore has always done one thing, and one thing only: Make you a God. But now, now completing the mythic dungeon that transformed four other mortals into living gods instead just gives you your first mythic tier...
That's it? You complete the test, get a mythic tier, and a pat on the head from your favorite god? What happened to the divine apotheosis that Cayden Cailean achieved? Or Iomedae? Or Norgorber? Or Aroden? Are we expected to buy this Pathfinder Chronicles Campaign Setting product and not be expected to remember that the starstone is a godmaker? Really?
Maybe someone's got a reason for this, but I doubt it's a good one.
Rabble rabble rabble rabble rabble!
Jokes aside, if that's actually the case, I'm houseruling that bit out of existence. And the entire part where the PCs are allowed to take the Test of the Startstone and be expected to have any chance of success, too, come to it.
Hmm. I thought you only attained godhood if you actually succeeded; it was possible to make out with great powers or riches instead, but not godhood.
Nononono. If you make it to the Starstone and touch it, you automatically become a god, full stop, no questions asked whatsoever.
The guys who made it out with power or riches? They escaped. They didn't get to the Starstone.
In the book, according to the OP, if you actually get there and touch it, you get a mythic tier instead of apotheosis like you're supposed to.
Edit: Zahariel, from what the OP said, it's their first mythic tier, so it still doesn't fit.
Either ignore that bit and grant the character full good-hood or just give them the full 10 ranks of mythic (which is pretty much demi-god status), I guess.
It's not like Mythic status isn't related to godhood. I haven't got my hands on the book yet, but it doesn't sound so atrocious.
Simply to toss my two cents in on this, I would point out that it has been centuries of game-time since the last successful supplicant completed the test. Centuries is a really long time & I doubt anyone who was present on any of these events, with the exception of the gods themselves, is still around now. So it seems to me that, like many things in real life, the hype exceeded the reality.
Also, as LazarX pointed out, 'You become a God' is really more the end of a Campaign than the next step.
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It would actually be fine if the Starstone granted you three mythic tiers, because then you would have the ability to grab Divine Source, becoming the basic definition of a god.
However, I would say that the campaign setting is only that way when it comes to the PCs, who may have been blocked from achieving divinity by Insert-McGuffin-Here.
But now, now completing the mythic dungeon that transformed four other mortals into living gods instead just gives you your first mythic tier...
Well, hang on now…
When you ascend to mythic power with the Starstone, you most likely gain tiers…
As in, the character gains as many mythic tiers as appropriate. In your game, maybe that's 10. Maybe 11. In someone else's game it might only be 1 or 2 - I'd go with 3 as a good start, since you can then immediately begin granting spells. I do wish that the Starstone had been a four-pager, since it's so iconic and personal to the setting. Perhaps it will be revisited at some point. Gods of the Inner Sea, perhaps?
I was annoyed at first, but now? Less so.
It's highly unlikely that a character who isn't already mythic will be able to survive the Test -- this is a trial that can grant you a mythic tier, but it probably won't be your first or even your second.
In other words, it's an exceptionally good excuse to take Divine Source (which I would argue should be limited by GM approval more so than any other mythic power) and simultaneously get the attention of the existing gods as exposited in the article.
Honestly, the only thing that really bothered me about Mythic Realms is that I can't get Tar-Baphon's stat block to add up when I try to reverse-engineer him. I'm getting a much higher CMD and I can only get the INT up to 32 without sacrificing CHA.
Other than that, I'm a fan. I might even change the end battle of Carrion Crown to the Cenotaph, since it's a less obvious location than Gallowspire.
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Normally I'd agree with you about the thread title change, but now it's just uninformative. "Has anyone made a critical post," perhaps?
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I haven't posted anything angry, but then again, I'm an adult. I don't get angry over games.
I haven't posted anything angry, but then again, I'm an adult. I don't get angry over games.
This is the Internet! How dare you not be offended by what I am offended by?!
I haven't posted anything angry, but then again, I'm an adult. I don't get angry over games.This is the Internet! How dare you not be offended by what I am offended by?!
:O
In all seriousness, though, I'd like to respond to a few of the points on this forum. Well, one point, really. The "end of the campaign thing." Yes.
Campaigns are stories and, as such, much have some sort of natural conclusion. The stories that don't end are few and far between, and let me tell you I can't remember the last person who enjoyed an inconclusive ending. That moment where your hero becomes a god, the campaign should end there. The Starstone should be the final test, the final challenge, not some "gateway" to something more.
If the books of the past are to be believed, the Starstone challenge is incredibly lethal. Paizo avoided publishing details on the Starstone for the same reason you wouldn't publish statistics for deities-—it spoils the mystique, the legendary quality of the object. By not stating something, you make it almost untouchable in the rules system, an intangible force that tantalizes with the promise of unimaginable power. That's what the Starstone was. Now it just gives mythic tiers. Yawn.
If you look at fantasies where the characters ascend to godhood (and I'll acquiesce now they're mostly anime and manga), the apotheosis comes at the finale. The idea of adventuring as a god is, to me, sickening, and is the reason why 3.0 D&D was so screwed-up. It gave CRs to beings that really shouldn't have CRs. The point of the Starstone test was never to be accessible at all levels. It was supposed to be the final challenge for characters with boundless ambition--the closing chapter to their mortal story. I don't see why that should be compromised.
OK, I'm going to go back on what I said at the top and respond to one more point. The notion that the godly realms have become a little more crowded is, to me, irrelevant. Since Aroden became a god only three other mortals have risen to power. Three. Unless the Starstone obliges some Rule of Twenty that prohibits more than twenty Avistani gods, I don't see why characters that complete the starstone test wouldn't achieve their deific ascension.
So, I finally got to read the book. You know, it doesn't just give a tier. It gives tiers. A non-descript plural. That could be anywhere from 1 to 10 tiers, and it's entirely up to the GM. So I don't see a problem here, now that I've actually been able to read the article.
I'd houserule that Iomedae, Cayden Cailen, etc already had multiple mythic tiers when performing the tests...The extra tiers were sufficient to knock them into +30 CR territory. Either that or the test makes a normal character mythic, and a mythic character divine.
My houserule would be "They did better in the tests." Or possibly "They were given a more difficult test." Or possibly what MMCJawa said and the PCs just got to it too early in their path to ascension.
Either way, nowhere does it say the Starstone treats everyone equally or that the end result is fixed no matter the state you are in when you reach it.
Unfortunately the book is just not for me. I prefer low powered anti-Monty Hall type of things. Dealing with mythic levels, additional powers to characters etc...is pretty much the opposite of what I enjoy. To each their own, however.
Did you read the full page? Thats not what it does. Stop rampaging, and also if you dont like it...just ignore it, its not like Jason Bulhman is forcing your hand or your game...although he can force anything on me he is a cutie, I would allow him to hihi.
The idea of adventuring as a god is, to me, sickening, and is the reason why 3.0 D&D was so screwed-up. It gave CRs to beings that really shouldn't have CRs.
Every edition of D&D prior to third also had stats for Gods. It wasn't strictly a third/3.5 thing.
However, I don't disagree with your point. Neither do Paizo's devs, hence their proclaimed statement that they will never be 'stating up' true deities.
My houserule would be "They did better in the tests."
I like this idea a lot. It seems fitting that there is a gradient to the testing, that it is possible for characters to do "better" or "worse" in more ways than pass/fail.
Also, options. I think more options is better than fewer options.
I'm kinda glad we got Tar-Baphon in here.
My games never last long enough to get to the "legitimately able to kill him" level, but I like hearing about that dude, because his whole deal amuses me: in a world filled with giant monsters, slavering horrors from the Outer Dark, insane archwizards, a few outcast Demon Lords, ghostly god-kings, and lord knows what else, one of the biggest badasses around is a regular human being who really worked his butt off to become a wizard-tyrant and lich.
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I'm kinda glad we got Tar-Baphon in here.
My games never last long enough to get to the "legitimately able to kill him" level, but I like hearing about that dude, because his whole deal amuses me: in a world filled with giant monsters, slavering horrors from the Outer Dark, insane archwizards, a few outcast Demon Lords, ghostly god-kings, and lord knows what else, one of the biggest badasses around is a regular human being who really worked his butt off to become a wizard-tyrant and lich.
He's living the American dream all right...
