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A GM, in my first game, told me I could not and "took" it from me giving me a weapon that was properly sized for my PC at M instead of L. I just wonder if I really am bound to such. The weapon was a Light Crossbow therefore it isn't two handed, because I know you can't do this with 2H weapons, just before anyone asks.

Andreas Forster |

You can't properly use a ranged weapon that's sized for a category larger than you are
There's a rule for that. You take a -2 penalty on attack rolls with a weapon that's designed for a larger or smaller creature. Also, you have to increase the weapon's category (light, one-handed, or two-handed) by one step for each difference in size category. (or decrease the category for weapons built for smaller creatures)
Other than that, nothing prevents you from using oversized or undersized weapons.As for purchasing them, here's what the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized play says about always available items:
All basic armor, gear, items, and weapons from Chapter 6 of the Core Rulebook, including Small and Large-sized items.
This means, you can of course buy an item that's built for large creatures, but you'll have to take the penalty to attack rolls.
As for the light crossbow:
You draw a light crossbow back by pulling a lever. Loading a light crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.
According to this, wielding a light crossbow as a one-handed weapon imparts a -2 penalty. You'd have to take this penalty as well if you want to wield a light crossbow built for large creatures (without the penalty, it's a two-handed weapon).
It also means, that you wouldn't be able to reload the large light crossbow as a move action (because you need two hands to do this with a normal light crossbow). I'd suppose you could reload it as a full-round action.
Lamontius |

Okay, hold on.
First, yes, you can FIRE a large-sized light crossbow as a medium-sized character.
You will have to wield it in two hands, and take a -4 penalty to your basic shot. -2 for the innapropriate size, and -2 for treating it as one-handed, since that is the only way you could wield it large-sized as a medium sized creature.
Also...you cannot reload it. Reloading the crossbow requires both hands, so when you up the size of the weapon, you push it out of the size level you are capable of two-handing. I don't agree with Andreas on this, but at the same time, I have nothing RAW to prove him wrong on.
Now, this can be skirted around with a Repeating Crossbow...
...but at this point, you're already using a weapon with a -4 to hit, for a minor damage bump. Throw in a cover modifier? Firing into melee and don't have Precise shot? Yeah, you're not hitting anything, in those cases.
Now, this can all be argued until the cows come home...which holds up the PFS game...and drops firmly in the "don't be a jerk" rule.
At which point, your GM will probably just tell you no.

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LazarX wrote:You can't properly use a ranged weapon that's sized for a category larger than you areThere's a rule for that. You take a -2 penalty on attack rolls with a weapon that's designed for a larger or smaller creature. Also, you have to increase the weapon's category (light, one-handed, or two-handed) by one step for each difference in size category. (or decrease the category for weapons built for smaller creatures)
Other than that, nothing prevents you from using oversized or undersized weapons.As for purchasing them, here's what the Guide to Pathfinder Society Organized play says about always available items:
Quote:All basic armor, gear, items, and weapons from Chapter 6 of the Core Rulebook, including Small and Large-sized items.This means, you can of course buy an item that's built for large creatures, but you'll have to take the penalty to attack rolls.
As for the light crossbow:
Core Rulebook wrote:You draw a light crossbow back by pulling a lever. Loading a light crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.
According to this, wielding a light crossbow as a one-handed weapon imparts a -2 penalty. You'd have to take this penalty as well if you want to wield a light crossbow built for large creatures (without the penalty, it's a two-handed weapon).
It also means, that you wouldn't be able to reload the large light crossbow as a move action (because you need two hands to do this with a normal light crossbow). I'd suppose you could reload it as a full-round action.
Then everything is A-Ok. This is what I thought. -4 for firing one-handed, -2 for firing two handed. :D
Thanks! I will inform the GM if I should play with him again, which I likely will!

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redward wrote:Totally agree with you, Redward, but can you break down, RAW-wise, why this is the case?Just Another Pathfinder wrote:Then everything is A-Ok. This is what I thought. -4 for firing one-handed, -2 for firing two handed. :D...and you can't reload it.
Because you need 2 hands to reload it. When the item changes size from one-handed to two-handed, there is no category over 2-handed, therefore that action cannot be taken.
This is typically in relation to wielding, so expect table variation on whether reloading also applies.

Castilliano |

As an extrapolation of the rules, it's sound.
Large (-2) Lt. Crossbow, 2d6, treated as one-handed (-2) by Medium creature for -4 total. It's not even a great trade, so sure, do it.
(-4 attack for +1.5 damage over Hvy. Crossbow.)
Though with Enlarge, Gravity Bow, & Vital Strike, it can be sorta funny. 8d6 (28 ave. -6 attack) vs. 6d8 (27 ave. -2 attack) w/ Heavy Crossbow.
(Extra penalties come from Enlarge, -1 size, -1 for -2 Dex)
And you can load it because loading it is not wielding it, IMO. It takes two hands to load a crossbow, but it's not being used as a weapon while being loaded, only while being aimed & fired. Again, IMO.
Cheers, JMK

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So, let me get this right. You want to wield a Large light crossbow, which will make it two-handed, bump the damage to 2d6 instead of 1d8, has a range of 80 ft., gives you a -2 to hit for being the wrong size and may or may not be something you can reload as a full round action?
Instead of wielding a heavy crossbow that is two-handed, does 1d10 damage, has a range of 120 ft., gives you no penalty for being the wrong size, and you're certain you can reload as a full-round action?
How is the former superior to the latter?

Akerlof |
Okay, hold on.
First, yes, you can FIRE a large-sized light crossbow as a medium-sized character.
...
Now, this can all be argued until the cows come home...which holds up the PFS game...and drops firmly in the "don't be a jerk" rule.
At which point, your GM will probably just tell you no.
I would rule that no, you can't use a large sized light crossbow: It says "Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands." That's the important part. End of story.
The fact that there is an extra rule allowing you to use a light crossbow with one hand does not mean that it counts as one handed for incorrectly sized weapons. Consider the bastard sword ruling: Unless you have EWP Bastard Sword, you cannot use a large sized one two handed, even if you stack the non-proficiency penalty on top of the size penalty. So I would rule that, for the purposes of size, even light crossbows counts as two handed the same way I would rule that you cannot use a large lance even though certain situations allow you to use it one handed. Expect even slightly conservative GMs to rule against you.
Don't expect a venture officer or coordinator to override a GM ruling that you cannot use a large light crossbow, it's legitimate table variation since there isn't a FAQ or errata or ruling by the campaign staff or clear consensus on the forums. I agree with Lamontius: Trying to argue it at the table is going to be disruptive and counter productive. If you have your heart set on using a large light crossbow, bring it up with the GM before the game starts, explain your reasoning, and abide by their decision; don't try to argue after they've made their decision.
Exotic Weapons and Hands: If a weapon is wielded two-handed as a martial weapon and one-handed with an exotic weapon proficiency, can I wield it one-handed without the exotic proficiency at a –4 penalty?
No.
Note that normally you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand. A bastard sword is an exception to that rule that you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, but you must have special training to use the bastard sword this way. Without that special training, wielding a bastard sword one-handed is as impossible as wielding a greatsword one-handed.
(The same goes for other weapons with this one-handed exotic exception, such as the dwarven waraxe.)Edit 7/26/13: Correction of a typo in the second sentence that said "you can't wield a two-handed weapon in two hands."
—Pathfinder Design Team, 07/19/13

Lamontius |

redward wrote:That's okay! That's what Unseen Servant is for! :DJust Another Pathfinder wrote:Then everything is A-Ok. This is what I thought. -4 for firing one-handed, -2 for firing two handed. :D...and you can't reload it.
I can't imagine this working.
I'm not sure as a fighter how you're going to reliably cast Unseen Servant at level 1.Even if you are playing with a friend who does cast it for you, an Unseen Servant has a strengh of 2 and can only perform simple tasks...so you are going to find, I would venture, a number of GMs who are simply going to say no to this.
All in all, you have developed a very complicated, rules-intensive strategy that is basically a wash, in terms of the to-hit penalty and reload complexity versus the marginal damage gain.
To top it off, you're going to face some very dubious GMs. I would strongly suggest you not pursue this build.
EDIT: Yeah, Akerlof, I'm not sure I disagree with you, even on the 'can fire it' part, whether or not that is the case. All in all, this a very complicated build issue that will cause table problems that far outweight the creativity/flavor as well as for a very negligable mechanical benefit, if that.

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Just Another Pathfinder wrote:redward wrote:That's okay! That's what Unseen Servant is for! :DJust Another Pathfinder wrote:Then everything is A-Ok. This is what I thought. -4 for firing one-handed, -2 for firing two handed. :D...and you can't reload it.I can't imagine this working.
I'm not sure as a fighter how you're going to reliably cast Unseen Servant at level 1.Even if you are playing with a friend who does cast it for you, an Unseen Servant has a strengh of 2 and can only perform simple tasks...so you are going to find, I would venture, a number of GMs who are simply going to say no to this.
GM ruled otherwise particularly because reloading a crossbow takes time, not strength, ( thus why you can't reload it faster despite how powerful you are ) and requires mechanical functions versus raw power like that of a bow. So the servant can perform the simple task of cranking / drawing mechanically back the mechanism which at 2 str is actually pretty easy. Bows required much more strength than crossbow mechanisms and at no point in the rules can a character be too weak to "wield" a mechanical weapon since it doesn't garner anything from strength either.
It was great reasoning and I think it makes sense. Otherwise getting your pet to do it for you, unless they have hands specifically designed for it, should be impossible as well. Yet it isn't.
All in all, you have developed a very complicated, rules-intensive strategy that is basically a wash, in terms of the to-hit penalty and reload complexity versus the marginal damage gain.
Well, not entirely. First and foremost it wouldn't be for a fighter, I just was dicking around because I am level 1, but a spellcaster would garner a lot from it. Secondly the Dex to Hit with Weapon Focus, etc. and eventual mastery of the crossbow would add a lot of damage options while keeping the odds to hit pretty high. Since str isn't required to wield them at any point you could ( and I have seen I guess ) lower your STR for your wizard and still use a backup crossbow to keep you in the action when you don't have a reason to blow a spell.
Actually this was all suggested to me by a person who has been playing for two years. :D I wouldn't have ever come up with this nonsense by myself.
To top it off, you're going to face some very dubious GMs. I would strongly suggest you not pursue this build.
Bards never listen. :D

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Lamontius wrote:Okay, hold on.
First, yes, you can FIRE a large-sized light crossbow as a medium-sized character.
...
Now, this can all be argued until the cows come home...which holds up the PFS game...and drops firmly in the "don't be a jerk" rule.
At which point, your GM will probably just tell you no.
I would rule that no, you can't use a large sized light crossbow: It says "Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands." That's the important part. End of story.
The fact that there is an extra rule allowing you to use a light crossbow with one hand does not mean that it counts as one handed for incorrectly sized weapons. Consider the bastard sword ruling: Unless you have EWP Bastard Sword, you cannot use a large sized one two handed, even if you stack the non-proficiency penalty on top of the size penalty. So I would rule that, for the purposes of size, even light crossbows counts as two handed the same way I would rule that you cannot use a large lance even though certain situations allow you to use it one handed. Expect even slightly conservative GMs to rule against you.
Don't expect a venture officer or coordinator to override a GM ruling that you cannot use a large light crossbow, it's legitimate table variation since there isn't a FAQ or errata or ruling by the campaign staff or clear consensus on the forums. I agree with Lamontius: Trying to argue it at the table is going to be disruptive and counter productive. If you have your heart set on using a large light crossbow, bring it up with the GM before the game starts, explain your reasoning, and abide by their decision; don't try to argue after they've made their decision.
Bastard Sword ruling wrote:...
Exotic Weapons and Hands: If a weapon is wielded two-handed as a martial weapon and one-handed with an exotic weapon proficiency, can I wield it one-handed without the exotic proficiency at a –4 penalty?
Lamontius wrote:Okay, hold on.
First, yes, you can FIRE a large-sized light crossbow as a medium-sized character.
...
Now, this can all be argued until the cows come home...which holds up the PFS game...and drops firmly in the "don't be a jerk" rule.
At which point, your GM will probably just tell you no.
I would rule that no, you can't use a large sized light crossbow: It says "Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands." That's the important part. End of story.
The fact that there is an extra rule allowing you to use a light crossbow with one hand does not mean that it counts as one handed for incorrectly sized weapons. Consider the bastard sword ruling: Unless you have EWP Bastard Sword, you cannot use a large sized one two handed, even if you stack the non-proficiency penalty on top of the size penalty. So I would rule that, for the purposes of size, even light crossbows counts as two handed the same way I would rule that you cannot use a large lance even though certain situations allow you to use it one handed. Expect even slightly conservative GMs to rule against you.
Don't expect a venture officer or coordinator to override a GM ruling that you cannot use a large light crossbow, it's legitimate table variation since there isn't a FAQ or errata or ruling by the campaign staff or clear consensus on the forums. I agree with Lamontius: Trying to argue it at the table is going to be disruptive and counter productive. If you have your heart set on using a large light crossbow, bring it up with the GM before the game starts, explain your reasoning, and abide by their decision; don't try to argue after they've made their decision.
Bastard Sword ruling wrote:...
Exotic Weapons and Hands: If a weapon is wielded two-handed as a martial weapon and one-handed with an exotic weapon proficiency, can I wield it one-handed without the exotic proficiency at a –4 penalty?
The problem with this ruling is it ignores most of the text in order to justify itself.
Crossbow, Light: You draw a light crossbow back by pulling a lever. Loading a light crossbow is a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity.
Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.
I don't think that's fair to avoid. I would agree with the ruling that you can only use ONE oversized crossbow and must use it with two hands, as that is how I understand it, so you can't do L. versions in each hand ( which I didn't attempt to do anyway, I was firing with two hands because the weight class, regardless ) but not that it's "impossible" due to the text description itself.
So while you could take a -4 if I were the GM I would rule that you could only take -2 for handling a larger weapon and could not, unless specifically a hand-crossbow, fire it with one hand due to weight class ( 1h > 2h ).
Just my opinion.

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That's okay! That's what Unseen Servant is for! :D
They come in Large size? Plus they have STR 2 score.
Kyle Baird wrote:Just teach your large-size animal companion to do it for you!OR THIS! :D
I'm pretty sure that was a joke, I can't see how you could teach an AC to reload.
Oh goodness I feel this is devolving.
When you deviate from accepted rules and their understanding, like using a Large Crossbow, you run into table variance. You need to be prepared for this, as you are working outside the normal parameters.

redward |

Upon further review...
Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
Except that the Ranged weapons aren't listed by size category. So if we refer to the Projectile Weapons description...
Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, halfling sling staves, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions).
and then to the Light Crossbow description...
Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.
To me, the most common sense interpretation is that projectile weapons in general, and the light crossbow specifically, require two hands to operate. So they are two-handed weapons.
If you then size up such a weapon, you trigger this clause:
If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.
So regardless of the "sometimes one-handed" aspect, you can't use an oversized Light Crossbow because you can't operate it in general.
/mostly ninja'd, but I think this is the logical progression of how to approach the question

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Upon further review...
Quote:Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.Except that the Ranged weapons aren't listed by size category. So if we refer to the Projectile Weapons description...
Ranged weapons wouldn't have "size categories" specifically because they are mechanical items. For instance a bow, tiny, cannot be shot with one hand even if it is tiny. A greatsword, tiny, could be definitely wielded with one hand, albeit pointless. Mechanically grabbing a hilt and dealing with the weight of a weapon is completely different than using a mechanism, in the case of the bow it would be the string and grip; if you don't hold the grip the bow is useless regardless of being large or diminutive. In the case of a crossbow it's reload mechanism is mechanical therefore whether it be massive or microcosmic you cannot reload it based on your physical ability. Jamming a bolt into the crossbow will just break it. The same with firearms and "guns" in this game; you cannot pretend your Vash and reload your gun tossing bullets willynilly.
So that's how that works, or would work, if one looked at it realistically.
Quote:Projectile Weapons: Blowguns, light crossbows, slings, heavy crossbows, shortbows, composite shortbows, longbows, composite longbows, halfling sling staves, hand crossbows, and repeating crossbows are projectile weapons. Most projectile weapons require two hands to use (see specific weapon descriptions).and then to the Light Crossbow description...
Quote:Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands. However, you can shoot, but not load, a light crossbow with one hand at a –2 penalty on attack rolls. You can shoot a light crossbow with each hand, but you take a penalty on attack rolls as if attacking with two light weapons. This penalty is cumulative with the penalty for one-handed firing.To me, the most common sense interpretation is that projectile weapons in general, and the light crossbow specifically, require two hands to operate. So they are two-handed weapons.
This is a question of the same problem as above; a mechanical understanding of the weapon versus a physical capability. For instance you could not wield a large bow, and this is because the draw on the string would be too great for your meager muscles. You're not a giant therefore you do not have a Giant's strength to pull the bow back. An oversized blowdart has nothing to do with a draw. The crank or mechanism on a xbow would be the same; it is a mechanism and therefore is operated in a manner that is less dependent on your strength and more dependent on your handling of the item.
If you then size up such a weapon, you trigger this clause:Quote:If a weapon's designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can't wield the weapon at all.So regardless of the "sometimes one-handed" aspect, you can't use an oversized Light Crossbow because you can't operate it in general.
And this is where we differ because if you consider the weapon as a mechanical functioning weapon with it's ability to be wielded ( which is very different from being wielded effectively or correctly ) with one hand then an oversized version would simply force 2h wielding. In a sense what changes is the flavor text that goes from "Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands." to "This weapon requires 2h." The caveat of "Normally" means that it is a mechanical change, as can be seen by the rest of the text, it is not at it's BEST when not stabilized ( thus the second hand ) and cannot be reloaded with one hand. However removing "Normally" for "Must" requires we go above assessing when it's optimal and start looking at what is required. It would be too heavy to hold with one hand, period, and that's where I see the issue. The weight.
The mechanism does not change at all regardless of whether the weapon is M, S, or L so if you had a Xbow that was SMALLER than you then your ruling also holds meaning a PC cannot use a xbow smaller than themselves because "Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands." kicks in regardless of weight.

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Simply put, melee weapons come in three categories: light, one-handed and two-handed.
Ranged weapons do not!
The section on Weapon Size has this to say:-
Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
This applies to ranged and melee weapons alike. Weapon category (light, 1H, 2H) isn't a factor on the cumulative -2 penalty.
This is not the case for the next part of the quote:-
The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
This part only affects melee weapons, as only melee weapons have these three categories.
You can extrapolate to your heart's content, but your extrapolation is not RAW. there is no RAW equivalent for ranged weapons.
Shooting a crossbow is as simple as squeezing the trigger. If the weapon were tightly held in a vice then as long as you can pull that trigger then the bolt will be released. You can conceivably shoot a gargantuan crossbow in this way, and a medium creature would take a -6 attack penalty. This would not apply to a gargantuan greatsword. Conceptually, a sword could not be used while held in a vice! Rules-wise, a gargantuan two-handed weapon is unusable by a medium creature.

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Simply put, melee weapons come in three categories: light, one-handed and two-handed.
Ranged weapons do not!
The section on Weapon Size has this to say:-
Quote:Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can't make optimum use of a weapon that isn't properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn't proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.This applies to ranged and melee weapons alike. Weapon category (light, 1H, 2H) isn't a factor on the cumulative -2 penalty.
This is not the case for the next part of the quote:-
Quote:The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder's size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.This part only affects melee weapons, as only melee weapons have these three categories.
You can extrapolate to your heart's content, but your extrapolation is not RAW. there is no RAW equivalent for ranged weapons.
Shooting a crossbow is as simple as squeezing the trigger. If the weapon were tightly held in a vice then as long as you can pull that trigger then the bolt will be released. You can conceivably shoot a gargantuan crossbow in this way, and a medium creature would take a -6 attack penalty. This would not apply to a gargantuan greatsword. Conceptually, a sword could not be used while held in a vice! Rules-wise, a gargantuan two-handed weapon is unusable by a medium creature.
So effectively you can use any size crossbow you want. . .
That's even better! :D

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Note that normally you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand. A bastard sword is an exception to that rule that you can't wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, but you must have special training to use the bastard sword this way. Without that special training, wielding a bastard sword one-handed is as impossible as wielding a greatsword one-handed.
I'm sorry to be so blunt, but this ruling is absolute nonsense.
An appropriately-sized bastard sword is a one-handed weapon, not a two-handed weapon! Since it's not a two-handed weapon it cannot be an exception to the rule about not being able to use two-handed weapons in one hand.
At the time, SKR (whom I respect) wrote to the effect that 'Of course you can't use a BS in one hand without the EWP! You can't use a greatsword in one hand, can you?'
What's a greatsword got to do with it? If you're going to compare weapons you should compare like with like: one-handed weapons with one-handed weapons. An appropriate comparison would have been a longsword not a greatsword.
He should have written 'You can't can't use a longsword in one hand, can you?'
Er...yes. Yes you can.

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Well to be fair I believe I see it the way you do. The reason I would you can only go up one size is to prevent the abuse of the system and you taking a -6 Gargantuan crossbow. The way I envision this is simple:
It is a Simple Weapon which means that anyone can pick it up which means it is mechanical rather than physical in it's use. Just like anyone can blow through a reed to create a blowdart anyone can crank a lever and it's specifically made as a tool to be easy to do.
There is no sizing, that is correct, so you could have a technically Garguantian Xbow and load it as normal every turn without a size limitation but if you stack Dex early on and take a few feats you can turn that -8 to at best a -1 on first level. Sure, you're a bit unbalanced, but you've a ballista and will probably take xbow mastery and/or get a repeating ballista. So it's really some b%~!!&~@.

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So effectively you can use any size crossbow you want. . .
That's even better! :D
I'm saying that the RAW doesn't make larger or smaller ranged weapons unusable. The RAW simply doesn't cover this.
In the absence of RAW, it's perfectly appropriate for your DM to make rulings on whether or not a medium creature can carry around and use larger crossbows if they are not held in a vice. The consequence of there not being any RAW is that the DM must make a ruling, and the consequence of this is that there will be table variation.

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Just Another Pathfinder wrote:So effectively you can use any size crossbow you want. . .Funny, but I'm not entirely certain you are joking.
Clearly not, otherwise we would all be running around with Colossal Heavy Crossbows.
Actually I was kidding to some degree. RAW you are allowed to use any size anything. For instant I personally rule you cannot use an oversized bow but RAW you can use one at least one size greater than you; even though it would be as tall as your person if not a bit taller ( Tallbow! :D ) it's legal to do. I just think in character, not in RAW, it would be too hard to pull back because if it's made for a bigger character it's got to have a larger and harder draw to it.
Putting aside "logic" though according to the rules and only the rules crossbows aren't a "handed" weapon, just like bows are always two handed but aren't constrained by size. You could literally, though RIDICULOUS, wield a crossbow the size of a real ballista with one hand, one in each hand, and if it were of the "Light" variety it would cost a move action alone to reload it.
This is actually why Unseen Servant would work; crossbows are just simple machines. They are not complex and when one takes into account that at 2 strength you can lift 14-20lbs as a heavy load and actually drag a lot more you should be able to pull the lever back however that is an RP question, because the force it takes should change based on it's size BUT as an RAW question there's no difference at all.
That's why I think this game is so fun; it's half-broken because you could technically use a Garguatan Dart, which could be interpreted by length or by with diameter, and may or may not actually be "that large" as if it's 4x the size of a regular dart that's going to be at most 5" in diamteter and just stupidly long? If that? You say that for a regular bow and one that's 4x as big is suddenly 16ft tall. Wonky but true.

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Be careful you don't 'dump' your strength too much. Your L sized light crossbow is going to weigh 8 lbs, with your bolts weighing in at 2 lbs/10. 10 STR only provides a 33 lb light load. Anything over this will give you a -3 to hit (via ACP). Unless you're taking very short trips, own a mule or your GM handwaves encumbrance rules, your 'backup' weapon is going to - by mass - be a third of your gear.
If you find this too much fun to reconsider, you may have to buy all darkwood, just to give yourself the ability to carry treasure.

redward |

Simply put, melee weapons come in three categories: light, one-handed and two-handed.
Ranged weapons do not!
I can't find where ranged weapons are excepted from this sentence:
Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.
Is it somewhere in the text and I'm just overlooking it?

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Malachi Silverclaw wrote:Simply put, melee weapons come in three categories: light, one-handed and two-handed.
Ranged weapons do not!
I can't find where ranged weapons are excepted from this sentence:
CRB wrote:Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.Is it somewhere in the text and I'm just overlooking it?
Ranged weapons are not exempted from that sentence!
Read it carefully. 'Every weapon has a size category'. Meaning every weapon is made for a tiny, small, medium, large, huge, etc. creature. Ranged weapons included. The difference in the size category of the weapon and the user is what determines the attack penalty: -2 per size difference.
So that's the size category out of the way. There is another category that melee weapons have but that ranged weapons don't: light, one-handed and two-handed. You can check that out by looking at the weapons tables.

Akerlof |
And this is where we differ because if you consider the weapon as a mechanical functioning weapon with it's ability to be wielded ( which is very different from being wielded effectively or correctly ) with one hand then an oversized version would simply force 2h wielding. In a sense what changes is the flavor text that goes from "Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands." to "This weapon requires 2h." The caveat of "Normally" means that it is a mechanical change, as can be seen by the rest of the text, it is not at it's BEST when not stabilized ( thus the second hand ) and cannot be reloaded with one hand. However removing "Normally" for "Must" requires we go above assessing when it's optimal and start looking at what is required. It would be too heavy to hold with one hand, period, and that's where I see the issue. The weight.
The mechanism does not change at all regardless of whether the weapon is M, S, or L so if you had a Xbow that was SMALLER than you then your ruling also holds meaning a PC cannot use a xbow smaller than themselves because "Normally, operating a light crossbow requires two hands." kicks in regardless of weight.
It's not a weight or complexity issue. Don't think of it as a light crossbow, think it as a rule.
Rule: This weapon requires two hands to operate.
Exception: This weapon can be operated with 1 hand at a -2 penalty.
That's what I use to make my ruling. The rule is that it requires two hands to operate, the oversized rule is that you increase the handedness by 1 when increasing the size. Two hands -> 3 hands therefore you cannot use it. The exception doesn't count for the ruling based on the reasoning in the bastard sword FAQ. (Whether or not we agree with that reasoning.)
That is how I would rule and I am confident that an organizer of Venture Officer wouldn't overrule me if I made it while GMing in the Twin Cities. Different areas have more or less permissive cultures, but I doubt an event organizer or VO would overrule a GM on that ruling anywhere. You are building your character in a gray area where there is legitimate disagreement on the rule. That's generally not a good policy because you will run into table variation where your build is legal at some tables but not others. If you do choose to build your character that way, you need to accept that there isn't a clear ruling one way or the other, present your choice to your GM beforehand along with your reasoning, and then abide by his ruling. Arguing with the GM over something that you know is a gray area in the rules that you're trying to take advantage of is boorish, tiresome and impolite so I highly recommend against doing so.

Castilliano |

There's a miss here comparing the Bastard Sword to the Lt. Crossbow.
With EWP, the two-handed BS can be used one-handed, proficiently.
With a -2, the "two-handed" Light Crossbow can be used one-handed, proficiently.
This implies an oversized Lt. Crossbow, with a -2, can be used with two-hands.
Reloading is reloading, not wielding as a weapon, so can be done by anyone by RAW.
The benefits are scant if any. Stretching to a worst-case scenario still makes the benefits minimal, and costly in feats, buffs, & other investment.
That said...
Even if allowable, don't do this build. Really. You have to convince every GM independently, and it's not worth the table's time or energy.
Cheers, JMK

Tempest_Knight |
The issue with the BS example is that, the FAQ is ridiculous.
The correct RAW answer would have been; no, because it requires EWP to wield 1h.
Not officially state it is a two-handed weapon, that EWP allows you to use 1h.
The Official ruling has the side effect to making Amiri an illegal character... the sizing rules make that BS (a 2h weapon as defined by the Design Team) a 3h weapon and unusable.
The correct answer allows Amiri to use the 1h Exotic(2h Martial) BS as a Large-sized weapon as 2h Exotic(3h Martial).
Why...
As per FAQ
Rule: 2h -> 3h = not usable
Exception: 1h -> N/A as the weapon is not usable
As per the Correct answer
Rule: 1h -> 2h = usable
Exception: 2h -> 3h? (assumed to also scale)