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My magus used this thing for his shield wand at lower levels, and I have one for BoL on my cleric. That's all I've used it for. If it's driving the high star GMs that batty, please just get rid of it. Personally, I can think of some things that are a lot more obnoxious from a GMing perspective, but if this is the thing everyone hates, by all means, get rid of it.
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Physical Description: Rods weigh approximately 5 pounds. They range from 2 feet to 3 feet long and are usually made of iron or some other metal. (Many, as noted in their descriptions, can function as light maces or clubs due to their hardy construction.) These sturdy items have AC 9, 10 hit points, hardness 10, and a break DC of 27.
.. but then no description notes such a thing.
Except for the Earthbind Rod, the Fiery Nimbus Rod, the Liberator's Rod, Rod of Alertness, Rod of Lordly Might, Rod of Nettles, Rod of Shadows, Rod of Steadfast Resolve, Rod of the Aboleth, Rod of Thunder and Lightning & Rod of Withering.
None of them seem to work as clubs though, and there's also Rod of the Viper (heavy mace).
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My magus used this thing for his shield wand at lower levels, and I have one for BoL on my cleric. That's all I've used it for. If it's driving the high star GMs that batty, please just get rid of it. Personally, I can think of some things that are a lot more obnoxious from a GMing perspective, but if this is the thing everyone hates, by all means, get rid of it.
Let's be clear here - not "everyone" hates it at all.
Honestly, we just need a clear ruling.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
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Aside from one wonky Magus build (and really, there are so many of those that it's hard to keep track of them all), does anyone have any concrete examples of why the Spring Loaded Wrist Sheath is game-breaking? Certainly, it is useful, but game-breaking?It's not really that it's :"game-breaking" any more than the Bracers of Falcon's aim is game-breaking. You are able to get the effect from other items (such as gloves of storing, or such), and it doesn't /break/ the game. But is does make the game less balanced for everyone.
The Bracers of Falcon's Aim as banned due to it being grossly undercosted. I don't see why the spring-loaded wrist sheaths aren't, and shouldn't be subsequently banned.
The Bracers of Falcon's Aim granted a permanent +1 to hit, a bonus to perception and an expanded critical range. The effect of it was similar to a belt of dexterity plus Eyes of the Eagle plus adding Keen to the weapon. As I recall from that discussion, the final price was a typo that made it in to UE.
As for the Spring Loaded Wrist Sheath, the item is not being used to increase damage. It is generally being used defensively to make items actually useful rather than entirely worthless. Having to spend a move action to draw a Breath of Life scroll makes that item entirely useless, and if your GM won't let you draw a wand on the move action (Which I think was FAQ'd, but whatever), then the Wand of CLW is also nerfed. In normal play, this isn't so much of a problem. In PFS, however, we often sit down to tables without clerics - our need for the wand is vastly greater than it is for tables who can expect a consistent party composition every week.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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If it's useful as a data point, I do not consider a magic wand to be a weapon for purposes of drawing-while-moving, for the reasons cited above.
I do allow characters to use scrolls in wrist sheaths, if the player has documentation for the item. Triggering one is a swift action that provokes attacks of opportunity (you're paying attention to something flying into your hand, rather than to the Dire 'Possum trying to bite your nipple off).
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It's not really that it's :"game-breaking" any more than the Bracers of Falcon's aim is game-breaking. You are able to get the effect from other items (such as gloves of storing, or such), and it doesn't /break/ the game. But is does make the game less balanced for everyone.
The Bracers of Falcon's Aim as banned due to it being grossly undercosted. I don't see why the spring-loaded wrist sheaths aren't, and shouldn't be subsequently banned.
If that is the sole criteria for banning them then you need to ban all mundane weapons as well as they are tremendously under costed compared to the mechanical benefits they provide (see my previous post regarding daggers).
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If it's useful as a data point, I do not consider a magic wand to be a weapon for purposes of drawing-while-moving, for the reasons cited above.
I do allow characters to use scrolls in wrist sheaths, if the player has documentation for the item. Triggering one is a swift action that provokes attacks of opportunity (you're paying attention to something flying into your hand, rather than to the Dire 'Possum trying to bite your nipple off).
I'd have to find it, and I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that a Wand is specifically listed in the CRB as an item that can be drawn while on the move as though it were a weapon.
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I'd have to find it, and I'm not 100% sure, but I believe that a Wand is specifically listed in the CRB as an item that can be drawn while on the move as though it were a weapon.If it's useful as a data point, I do not consider a magic wand to be a weapon for purposes of drawing-while-moving, for the reasons cited above.
I do allow characters to use scrolls in wrist sheaths, if the player has documentation for the item. Triggering one is a swift action that provokes attacks of opportunity (you're paying attention to something flying into your hand, rather than to the Dire 'Possum trying to bite your nipple off).
Andrew, it's been posted in this thread several times. The wording is not absolutely clear, as there is a different paragraph.
Draw or Sheathe a Weapon
Drawing a weapon so that you can use it in combat, or putting it away so that you have a free hand, requires a move action. This action also applies to weapon-like objects carried in easy reach, such as wands. If your weapon or weapon-like object is stored in a pack or otherwise out of easy reach, treat this action as retrieving a stored item.If you have a base attack bonus of +1 or higher, you may draw a weapon as a free action combined with a regular move. If you have the Two-Weapon Fighting feat, you can draw two light or one-handed weapons in the time it would normally take you to draw one.
emphasis mine.
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thanks DesolateHarmony.
Being that they are considering weapon-like objects in easy reach, like weapons for the purposes of drawing with a move action... I think its wrong to then say that if you have a +1 BAB that you can't then draw that as part of a move action.
That does assume, however, that they are in easy reach, such as in a sheath of some sort on your belt. If they are in a backpack (even if it is a Handy Haversack), then I would say that they cannot be drawn as part of a move (because they are not in "easy reach").
Unfortunately, Pathfinder does not have a specific "wand sheath" available in the CRB, APG, or UE, as far as I know. That would almost make the Wrist Sheath or SLWS the only PFS legal sheaths?
What would one use to legally make a wand "in easy reach" so as to be drawable as a weapon?
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thanks DesolateHarmony.
Being that they are considering weapon-like objects in easy reach, like weapons for the purposes of drawing with a move action... I think its wrong to then say that if you have a +1 BAB that you can't then draw that as part of a move action.
That does assume, however, that they are in easy reach, such as in a sheath of some sort on your belt. If they are in a backpack (even if it is a Handy Haversack), then I would say that they cannot be drawn as part of a move (because they are not in "easy reach").
Unfortunately, Pathfinder does not have a specific "wand sheath" available in the CRB, APG, or UE, as far as I know. That would almost make the Wrist Sheath or SLWS the only PFS legal sheaths?
What would one use to legally make a wand "in easy reach" so as to be drawable as a weapon?
Slip it in your belt.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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Do not ban. It doesn't break the game.
If we're going to ban SLWS, maybe we should just ban everything else on the PFS Survival 101 list because they're so generally useful for their price.
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Slip it in your belt.
That does assume, however, that they are in easy reach, such as in a sheath of some sort on your belt. If they are in a backpack (even if it is a Handy Haversack), then I would say that they cannot be drawn as part of a move (because they are not in "easy reach").Unfortunately, Pathfinder does not have a specific "wand sheath" available in the CRB, APG, or UE, as far as I know. That would almost make the Wrist Sheath or SLWS the only PFS legal sheaths?
What would one use to legally make a wand "in easy reach" so as to be drawable as a weapon?
Sure, but how will it stay there? How many wands can you "slip in your belt"? How do we know this RAW (I can infer this, but am trying to grok this whole problem, and figure out how I will rule on it by the weekend... I have an idea, but am not 100% sure)
Not trying to be snarky (but probably succeeding)... as the only "book legal" sheaths that I know about are the two wrist sheaths!
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Having played live action roleplaying with IFGS for several years while I was in college, things stay slipped in your belt very easily. Typically because the belt is tightened to keep the pants up or to make sure it stays around your waste while it has other things attached to it.
Lets do an exercise.
If I am playing a wizard and I choose not to buy a backpack, where do I keep my wands?
I think it very reasonable to assume that you can keep a reasonable number of wands readily available.
Is it specifically written within the rules? No. Should I expect table variation? Sure.
But as long as I'm not talking like 50 wands or something such, and I'm only dealing with a handful or so, and a GM severely restricts my access to them (i.e. No, you can't slip them in your belt, or no, you can't even have them because you don't have a backpack) then I would seriously have to consider whether I want to play at that GM's table (especially with that character.)
EDIT: To clarify a point.
I think if we get too pedantic with some things (i.e. Because there are no rules for where to store a wand, they must be in a backpack and thus negate the rules for being able to draw them as a move action specifically listed in the CRB...) you remove the ability for reasonable players to make reasonable choices.
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I would allow wands to be used with Quick Draw. Wands are specifically called out as weapon-like in the rules, and it takes only a move action to draw them, just like a weapon.
From the CRB Page 131-132
Quick Draw (Combat)
Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.
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I would allow wands to be used with Quick Draw. Wands are specifically called out as weapon-like in the rules, and it takes only a move action to draw them, just like a weapon.From the CRB Page 131-132
Quick Draw (Combat)
Alchemical items, potions, scrolls, and wands cannot be drawn quickly using this feat.
chuckle... blast it. I did look up the feat, but missed that line. So no, I would not allow Quick Draw to work with wands per what the feat says.
However, I still would allow a wand to be drawn as part of a move action, because a Wand can be drawn as a move action per the CRB.
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Having played live action roleplaying with IFGS for several years while I was in college, things stay slipped in your belt very easily. Typically because the belt is tightened to keep the pants up or to make sure it stays around your waste while it has other things attached to it.
as a past writer and producer of IFGS games and builder of ropes courses and misc tortures, how often did those stuck in the belt items come out when you were not upright and moving at a walk. I can recall many an item falling out (even stuff that started tied) through a course.
However, why not carry wands in quivers - and if an arrow can be drawn as a free action from from a quiver why not a wand as a move or part of a move action from a quiver?
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Having played live action roleplaying with IFGS for several years while I was in college, things stay slipped in your belt very easily. Typically because the belt is tightened to keep the pants up or to make sure it stays around your waste while it has other things attached to it.
as a past writer and producer of IFGS games and builder of ropes courses and misc tortures, how often did those stuck in the belt items come out when you were not upright and moving at a walk. I can recall many an item falling out (even stuff that started tied) through a course.
However, why not carry wands in quivers - and if an arrow can be drawn as a free action from from a quiver why not a wand as a move or part of a move action from a quiver?
My stuff never fell out. I know some folks had troubles with it. It was just a matter of making sure it was secured correctly.
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I do not think it is overpowered, but one of my PCs carries a Haunt Siphon in a SLWS, so that he can use it in the surprise round. In those games where the Judge doesn't allow that (I always ask), he just carries it in hand all the time. (Yeah, he hates Haunts that much)>
Last time I checked you can't use Swift Actions during a surprise round anyway.
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Last time I checked you can't use Swift Actions during a surprise round anyway.
I do not think it is overpowered, but one of my PCs carries a Haunt Siphon in a SLWS, so that he can use it in the surprise round. In those games where the Judge doesn't allow that (I always ask), he just carries it in hand all the time. (Yeah, he hates Haunts that much)>
You can also take free actions during the surprise round
You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action
Restricted Activity: In some situations, you may be unable to take a full round's worth of actions. In such cases, you are restricted to taking only a single standard action or a single move action (plus free and swift actions as normal). You can't take a full-round action (though you can start or complete a full-round action by using a standard action; see below).
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Last time I checked you can't use Swift Actions during a surprise round anyway.
This is not the case. Swift actions are allowed.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
And then (as someone else quoted upthread):
A swift action consumes a very small amount of time, but represents a larger expenditure of effort than a free action. You can perform one swift action per turn without affecting your ability to perform other actions. In that regard, a swift action is like a free action. You can, however, perform only one single swift action per turn, regardless of what other actions you take. You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action.
BNWninjad
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Last time I checked you can't use Swift Actions during a surprise round anyway.
I do not think it is overpowered, but one of my PCs carries a Haunt Siphon in a SLWS, so that he can use it in the surprise round. In those games where the Judge doesn't allow that (I always ask), he just carries it in hand all the time. (Yeah, he hates Haunts that much)>You can also take free actions during the surprise round
You can take a swift action anytime you would normally be allowed to take a free action
Restricted Activity: In some situations, you may be unable to take a full round's worth of actions. In such cases, you are restricted to taking only a single standard action or a single move action (plus free and swift actions as normal). You can't take a full-round action (though you can start or complete a full-round action by using a standard action; see below).
ok... so for me allowing the Rogue to SLWS a dagger to throw in the surprise round is ok then.
and for a judge like trollbill I can always just revert to having my Scout keep the Haunt Syphon in hand.
What do you mean a "judge like trollbill?"
One who makes a mistake and gets a rule wrong by accident or misunderstanding?
I'm sure that if you showed him the rule in the book, he'd correct himself and move on.
Why is it so hard to just have an adult discussion with your GM?
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What do you mean a "judge like trollbill?"
One who makes a mistake and gets a rule wrong by accident or misunderstanding?
I'm sure that if you showed him the rule in the book, he'd correct himself and move on.
Why is it so hard to just have an adult discussion with your GM?
You're talking to yourself. :-)
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What do you mean a "judge like trollbill?"
One who makes a mistake and gets a rule wrong by accident or misunderstanding?
I'm sure that if you showed him the rule in the book, he'd correct himself and move on.
Why is it so hard to just have an adult discussion with your GM?
You're talking to yourself. :-)
huh?
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However, why not carry wands in quivers - and if an arrow can be drawn as a free action from from a quiver why not a wand as a move or part of a move action from a quiver?
Sure, I would probably allow that as being easily accessible. That'd work great for a quiver on your hip. The problem then becomes different.
- Where do you get a quiver (they are not listed as a separate item in Pathfinder, so you cannot buy one for PFS)
- If you have multiples, how do you draw the right one without looking, and at least taking a moment's time?
- How do you keep them from spilling out if you fall or are up-ended?
As an aside, all of what I am asking (and what I would ask of my players) is that some thought go into where the wands are, etc. I'd likely not rule against pretty much any of this, as long as the player has thought about it. I more want to know where things are so that if something bad happens, I know how to adjudicate it. But, mostly, I just want you think about it.
Example: If the wands are in a quiver, or are being used to hold up the character's long hair (like chopsticks), then they are probably also easily stolen via Sleight of Hand or the Steal maneuver).
Another Example: Munny, Lawman of Abadar (Gunslinger/Inquisitor) bought an Adventurer's Sash to justify how he is carrying 4 different types of paper cartridges, and 4 different types of bullets. He puts a different type into each pocket, so that he knows what he is loading without looking. No GM asked me to do this... I did it because it was stretching my own verisimilitude as to how this was done!
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Where do you get a quiver (they are not listed as a separate item in Pathfinder, so you cannot buy one for PFS)
-Buy arrows. use arrows. You have a quiver.
If you have multiples, how do you draw the right one without looking, and at least taking a moment's time?
-The same way archers always draw the right arrow for the job.
How do you keep them from spilling out if you fall or are up-ended?
pack a bunch of them in there
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However, why not carry wands in quivers - and if an arrow can be drawn as a free action from from a quiver why not a wand as a move or part of a move action from a quiver?Sure, I would probably allow that as being easily accessible. That'd work great for a quiver on your hip. The problem then becomes different.
- Where do you get a quiver (they are not listed as a separate item in Pathfinder, so you cannot buy one for PFS)
- If you have multiples, how do you draw the right one without looking, and at least taking a moment's time?
- How do you keep them from spilling out if you fall or are up-ended?
Where do you get a sheathe for that sword that the ubiquitous fighter carries around?
Or a strap to hang a hammer off your belt with?Or carry most any normal weapon you don't want to carry 100% of the time in PFS?
They are not listed as a separate item in Pathfinder, so you cannot buy one for PFS by your statement...
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What do you mean a "judge like trollbill?"One who makes a mistake and gets a rule wrong by accident or misunderstanding?
I'm sure that if you showed him the rule in the book, he'd correct himself and move on.
Why is it so hard to just have an adult discussion with your GM?
Andrew, thank you for jumping to my defense but I am sure he simply meant "someone who ruled, for whatever reason, he couldn't do what he wanted." Even if the DM is clearly wrong, if you have an alternate solution to the problem, sometimes it's just easier to go with that solution than disrupt the game with a rules argument.
As to the point on hand, I had always assumed the exclusion of specifically listing Swift Action among the other actions you could take in a surprise round was deliberate on the part of the designers. Though it also seemed odd to me that you couldn't take a Swift Action at all even if that was the only action you took. Looks like I am wrong on that, though.
I don't actually recall ever having to make that ruling against a player at one of my tables. As far as I know, the only one who has suffered from this was me self-nerfing myself.
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What do you mean a "judge like trollbill?"One who makes a mistake and gets a rule wrong by accident or misunderstanding?
I'm sure that if you showed him the rule in the book, he'd correct himself and move on.
Why is it so hard to just have an adult discussion with your GM?
Andrew, thank you for jumping to my defense but I am sure he simply meant "someone who ruled, for whatever reason, he couldn't do what he wanted." Even if the DM is clearly wrong, if you have an alternate solution to the problem, sometimes it's just easier to go with that solution than disrupt the game with a rules argument.
As to the point on hand, I had always assumed the exclusion of specifically listing Swift Action among the other actions you could take in a surprise round was deliberate on the part of the designers. Though it also seemed odd to me that you couldn't take a Swift Action at all even if that was the only action you took. Looks like I am wrong on that, though.
I don't actually recall ever having to make that ruling against a player at one of my tables. As far as I know, the only one who has suffered from this was me self-nerfing myself.
Ah... right. Yeah, a lot of what gets discussed on the boards here I think are largely theoretical rather than actual.
They don't describe a lot of situations to include swift or immediate actions typically. Which I'm sure is a large part of what your confusion was. They just say free, and then based on the fact you can do a swift or immediate anytime you could do a free, its understood that when a situation only says you can do a free, you can also do a swift and/or immediate.
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However, why not carry wands in quivers - and if an arrow can be drawn as a free action from from a quiver why not a wand as a move or part of a move action from a quiver?Sure, I would probably allow that as being easily accessible. That'd work great for a quiver on your hip. The problem then becomes different.
- Where do you get a quiver (they are not listed as a separate item in Pathfinder, so you cannot buy one for PFS)
- If you have multiples, how do you draw the right one without looking, and at least taking a moment's time?
- How do you keep them from spilling out if you fall or are up-ended?
Where do you get a sheathe for that sword that the ubiquitous fighter carries around?
Or a strap to hang a hammer off your belt with?
Or carry most any normal weapon you don't want to carry 100% of the time in PFS?They are not listed as a separate item in Pathfinder, so you cannot buy one for PFS by your statement...
Honestly?
I assume that they are included with the weapon purchase (like I assume that quivers are included with arrow purchases). Now, I could be wrong, here, so if I am, please correct me (with the appropriate citation - page reference would be preferred over a link to the PRD, but whichever). But, from what I understand, if the weapons do not come with a sheath/scabbard, there currently is no way to buy one.Now, as Andrew said above, a lot of this discussion is theoretical, which is how I am taking it. I am trying to learn from those more experienced at PFS GMing than I am, so that I can prevent making mistakes at the table. For things like all of this, I am also trying to formulate my opinion so that I know how I will rule prior to reaching the table.
For most of this, I would ask the players where they are storing things, how they keep them separate, etc. I would likely take any response that sounded even somewhat feasible (such as Andrew's tucking them into his belt idea). Not trying to penalize players for holes in the rules, but just trying to get them to think about it!
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Honestly?
I assume that they are included with the weapon purchase (like I assume that quivers are included with arrow purchases). Now, I could be wrong, here, so if I am, please correct me (with the appropriate citation - page reference would be preferred over a link to the PRD, but whichever). But, from what I understand, if the weapons do not come with a sheath/scabbard, there currently is no way to buy one.Now, as Andrew said above, a lot of this discussion is theoretical, which is how I am taking it. I am trying to learn from those more experienced at PFS GMing than I am, so that I can prevent making mistakes at the table. For things like all of this, I am also trying to formulate my opinion so that I know how I will rule prior to reaching the table.
For most of this, I would ask the players where they are storing things, how they keep them separate, etc. I would likely take any response that sounded even somewhat feasible (such as Andrew's...
For what it's worth, for wands I don't keep in my SLWS, I usually keep them in a Bandolier for easy access. Most DMs find this acceptable.
I always assumed you got a sheath when you purchased a weapon as well. Though I have heard a story of a PFS DM who would audit your characters before play at every Con. If you had a sharp weapon in your Handy Haversack, since the rules don't say it comes with a sheath and you can't buy one, he would rule your sharp weapons weren't in sheaths and would immediately roll saves to destroy you Handy Haversack. That could have just been an Urban Horror Story though.
Of course, if this wasn't just an Urban Horror Story, someone please give me the name of that DM so that I can avoid saying his name 3 times in front of a mirror.
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Weapon Qualities
Price: This value is the weapon's price in gold pieces (gp) or silver pieces (sp). The price includes miscellaneous gear that goes with the weapon, such as a scabbard or quiver.
So many issues could be addressed with a simple RTFM. :-)