Does that mean that spells like Trap the Soul should be considered evil in Golarion?
James Jacobs has explained why Pharasma hates undead, but not why sentient creatures have their alignment shifted forcibly. I've seen plenty of what, but no why as of yet. Self preservation through feeding is Neutral at worst.
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I'm just going to leave this here. Again.
The issue is that Necromancy isn't approached the same way by every designer. This isn't that uncommon. Many other schools have spells that don't seem to fit the general guidelines. (I can't even count the number of times I've thought "why the heck is that a Conjuration spell?")
The difference is that Necromancy is the only school (besides sometimes Enchantment) that makes moral judgements that effect the rules of the game.
The question isn't why undead are always evil. It's whether or not they should be.
The answer, of course, is "it depends on the game."
So unless you're playing PFS, just make the decision for the game you are in, discuss it with your group, and explore the implications of that choice in the story.
The question whether negative energy is evil or not has been answered along with the atonement question. If you feel the need to ask the question why sentient creatures have their alignment shifted forcibly, make a new topic. This one is pretty much done.
I'm just going to leave this here. Again.
The issue is that Necromancy isn't approached the same way by every designer. This isn't that uncommon. Many other schools have spells that don't seem to fit the general guidelines. (I can't even count the number of times I've thought "why the heck is that a Conjuration spell?")
The difference is that Necromancy is the only school (besides sometimes Enchantment) that makes moral judgements that effect the rules of the game.
The question isn't why undead are always evil. It's whether or not they should be.
The answer, of course, is "it depends on the game."
So unless you're playing PFS, just make the decision for the game you are in, discuss it with your group, and explore the implications of that choice in the story.
Nonetheless, i wanted to make a character that is pretty much assured to work, witch is impossible.
I'm afraid of PFS, because it feels restrictive to me, but i have access to no home games at all...
Or even PFS ones for that matter.
I wonder why i even made this, not like I'll ever get to be a player and not a GM that i hate being but am bound to by guilt.
Overall, this topic is over.
Icehawk333, find a VTT such as Roll20 or Paizo's Gamespace (when it comes online) and play there.
I have two games a week, one on Roll20 and one at home. :)
- Gauss
Icehawk333, find a VTT such as Roll20 or Paizo's Gamespace (when it comes online) and play there.
I have two games a week, one on Roll20 and one at home. :)
- Gauss
If only i knew anyone who would actually want to dm.
1. No.
2. Intelligent ones, yes. Unintelligent ones are slaves to instinct.
Icehawk333, there are plenty of resources on various websites to find people to play with. My own online group I found on Paizo's website.
I have also found people to play with on Roll20 (I am playing Axis and Allies on Roll20 right now).
- Gauss
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Hellfire Ray is totally evil. But alas, on topic.
Negative Energy is not inherently evil no. Casting inflict spells does not have the evil descriptor as a main point. Negative Energy is just the opposite of Positive Energy. They are as indifferent to our silly moral conundrums as the air we breathe or a rock on the ground.
Yes. It is hellfire. You are calling forth power from Hell, which is the plane of evil.
Negative energy isn't evil. Infusing the dead with negative energy to make them undead is evil.
It is the making undead part that is evil, not what you use. In the same way a sword isn't evil, but stabbing kittens is.
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How to play a non evil undead.
1) Acquire undead.
2)Tie it up.
3)Put Helmet of Opposite Alignment on it.
Does it fail the will save and stop trying to kill you?
If yes, then yay, enjoy your new good aligned undead
If no, remove helmet and repeat step 3.
HoOA is not stated to be mind effecting and Undead are therefore not immune to it.
Tybalt Baneko there is a 4th step. Does it kill itself afterwards since it is now something it feels should be destroyed? :D
- Gauss
How to play a non evil undead.
1) Acquire undead.
2)Tie it up.
3)Put Helmet of Opposite Alignment on it.
Does it fail the will save and stop trying to kill you?
If yes, then yay, enjoy your new good aligned undead
If no, remove helmet and repeat step 3.HoOA is not stated to be mind effecting and Undead are therefore not immune to it.
You don't need to go threw all the trouble:
just read the bestiary's definitions on monster alignment: only mindless creatures and outsiders have fixed alignments. Intelligent undead are free to be any alignment.
Outsiders actually have rules for if they become an alignment other then thier own.
They count as both at all times.
Tybalt Baneko there is a 4th step. Does it kill itself afterwards since it is now something it feels should be destroyed? :D
- Gauss
Not as black and white as you think.
If it doesn't have a soul, death is a thing that would likely terrify it, as there is no available afterlife.
Icehawk333, could you show me where in my 4th step I indicated it was black and white? I am pretty sure I put in an question without stating an answer.
- Gauss
Icehawk333, could you show me where in my 4th step I indicated it was black and white? I am pretty sure I put in an question without stating an answer.
- Gauss
Because i'm not using the proper term.
;)
Most undead being chaotic evil will be reversed to Lawful Good, won't commit suicide, as in most religions, suicide is seen as an unforgivable sin.
If I was to do so, I would realize that I now have infinite time to help turn my undead brothers become free and good people by doing the same thing to them! :D
...
I may have actually just made a new character design for myself...
Skeleton Pally.... interesting. :D
Icehawk333, I just thought you could point where in my statement I indicated my thoughts on how black and white it was. I was pretty sure I did not indicate it. :)
- Gauss
Icehawk333, I just thought you could point where in my statement I indicated my thoughts on how black and white it was. I was pretty sure I did not indicate it. :)
- Gauss
Yeah, i said something wrong, is all.
Tybs: Samurai are (potentially) Lawful Good and commit suicide all the time! Remember: just because the undead is lawful good doesn't mean he found religion. ;)
(I found Iomedae! She was hiding in the closet the whole time!)
No worries. :) Sometimes I indicate something without meaning to.
- Gauss
Is killing yourself because you are undead suicide? I don't think so since you aren't alive you cannot be ending your life. :D
- Gauss
Huh, and here I thought that killing sentient lawful good people would be an evil act, and that any intelligent lawful good undead would be smart enough to know that...
Killing isn't inherently evil - killing innocents maybe, but there's plenty of legitimate reasons for good people to kill one another, especially in a world like Golarion.
Tybs: Samurai are (potentially) Lawful Good and commit suicide all the time! Remember: just because the undead is lawful good doesn't mean he found religion. ;)
(I found Iomedae! She was hiding in the closet the whole time!)
That's a culture thing, silly Beardsman. :P
That's a culture thing, silly Beardsman. :P
So is religion :P ;D
137ben, you make a good point, killing sentient lawful good people would be an evil act. Good thing a Lawful Good undead isn't people. :)
- Gauss
Guess it's a good thing I said Pally and not Samurai, then. ;)
People is not a defined term in Pathfinder. So, you say all creatures with an intelligence score higher than 2 are people and I say they are not. *shrugs*
I say people are humanoids, not undead things which are usually evil.
I think that when waking up to the horror that you are an undead thing destroying yourself is certainly an option. Especially if it prevents you from harming others.
- Gauss
Undead logically shouldn't be evil, but it's a genre conceit at this point, so settings tend to be constructed with the idea that Undead *need* to be evil for some reason.
Taking souls out of circulation isn't necessarily a bad thing, especially if the soul in question really didn't want to be recycled.
Actually people are people.
Dragons are dragons
Undead are...undead.
Literally a whole other category and everything.
Depends on the setting.
"People are people, no matter what they are."
"A person's a person, no matter how small."
(Or naturally evil)
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Tybalt Baneko there is a 4th step. Does it kill itself afterwards since it is now something it feels should be destroyed? :D
- Gauss
Not as black and white as you think.
If it doesn't have a soul, death is a thing that would likely terrify it, as there is no available afterlife.
Most intelligent undead have souls though. In fact, if they don't that typically means something is terribly wrong even beyond the norms of undeath. (like Paizo's take on 3.5 devourers)
Because non-evil undead would be all sparkly. And you don't want that, trust me.
Seriously, it's because undead in D&D are based on Hammer films like Dracula, a non-evil Dracula leads to "Love at First Bite". Later references would be the Evil Dead series.
But cheer up! Right over yonder is Vampire the Masquerade, which is custom designed to meet all your non-evil, misunderstood, angsty creature of the night needs
Because non-evil undead would be all sparkly. And you don't want that, trust me.
Seriously, it's because undead in D&D are based on Hammer films like Dracula, a non-evil Dracula leads to "Love at First Bite". Later references would be the Evil Dead series.
But cheer up! Right over yonder is Vampire the Masquerade, which is custom designed to meet all your non-evil, misunderstood, angsty creature of the night needs
Pff. Angst isn't what I'm going for either.
You assume too much...(That, and in pathfinder, they have 4 diffrent vampires, one is based off of Dracula.)
I'm hoping for a CG that loves being a undead. Sure, people thinking he's evil is annoying, but he "lives" with it.
Vampire wasn't what i was hoping for.
I'm hoping for a ghoul.
A ghoul that likes tea and hides in plain sight as a normal person.
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Because non-evil undead would be all sparkly. And you don't want that, trust me.
Seriously, it's because undead in D&D are based on Hammer films like Dracula, a non-evil Dracula leads to "Love at First Bite". Later references would be the Evil Dead series.
But cheer up! Right over yonder is Vampire the Masquerade, which is custom designed to meet all your non-evil, misunderstood, angsty creature of the night needs
Pff. Angst isn't what I'm going for either.
You assume too much...
(That, and in pathfinder, they have 4 diffrent vampires, one is based off of Dracula.)
I'm hoping for a CG that loves being a undead. Sure, people thinking he's evil is annoying, but he "lives" with it.
Marceline. :)
Marceline. :)Because non-evil undead would be all sparkly. And you don't want that, trust me.
Seriously, it's because undead in D&D are based on Hammer films like Dracula, a non-evil Dracula leads to "Love at First Bite". Later references would be the Evil Dead series.
But cheer up! Right over yonder is Vampire the Masquerade, which is custom designed to meet all your non-evil, misunderstood, angsty creature of the night needs
Pff. Angst isn't what I'm going for either.
You assume too much...
(That, and in pathfinder, they have 4 diffrent vampires, one is based off of Dracula.)
I'm hoping for a CG that loves being a undead. Sure, people thinking he's evil is annoying, but he "lives" with it.
Edited because of brainfart, but both are valid, and cool concepts.
Also, there's always the Advanced Race Guide. You can create Undead races with that. Non-evil ones, even.
Further, James has gone on record more recently as saying that there are non-evil undead... and not just ghosts. (Wish I could find it...)
EDIT:
Related, his opinion on inherently-aligned outsiders.
137ben, this conversation got out of RAW a long time ago. It got into alignment debates (which are almost never RAW), world fluff, etc.
Now, you are trying to use an alignment debate to state that it would be evil to kill oneself. That has nothing to do with RAW regardless of your type or subtype.
Now, why is a Lawful Good undead likely to harm others? Because many types of undead need to feed in some fashion.
Any undead that is either carnivorous or life draining needs to feed. Failure to do so in the required time (days = creature's HD) requires a Will save (DC10 +HD/2 +# of previous checks) or it takes penalties. Additionally, it must make a Will save (same formula as before) if it is close to a helpless creature that qualifies as it's food source.
These rules (which are optional but are the only rules covering this that I have found) are found in Blood of the Night.
So, presented with the fact that Good undead (according to Blood of the Night this is possible but extremely rare) will still have to feed and an accidental feeding may result in the death of an innocent, it is any wonder that *some* Good aligned Undead may decide to end their existence rather than feed on the innocent?
In any case, this conversation is really not dealing with a Rules Question, if you wish to repost in a different discussion forum perhaps I will continue to debate it.
- Gauss