I wanted to build a Pathfinder character based on a GURPS one I played a few years ago. She was a Celtic trainee druid that had lost her powers thanks to Roman patrol (...) and had become a psychotic Roman-hating warrior.
Tricky to pull off in Pathfinder but it did give me the opportunity to do some tweaks and changes. For a start, that particular GURPS campaign didn't use 'proper' magic (I had Ventriloquism, Mimicry and so on), and I also wanted her to be accompanied by a wolf. This progressed to her being from a tribe of wolf-worshippers and so the idea of a Druid (Wolf Shaman Archetype) with wolf companion was an obvious one. The shapeshifting was a definite flavour bonus, especially with the Shaping Focus Feat to improve relative druid levels.
I really wanted her to be able to fight, though, and Druids, whilst not exactly helpless, don't have the same Celtic-warrior feel to them. Multi-classing was the answer, but Fighter was far too metallic for a Celtic warrior. Barbarian seemed a good match but I wanted my wolf to progress smoothly and not become a liability at later levels, so I thought of Ranger (thus combining Animal Companion levels).
This seemed okay, if not exactly the fit I would have built in a less power-restrictive system. Then I discovered the Mad Dog Barbarian Archetype and suddenly it all fitted into place. At the cost of a slightly reduced Rage ability, I have a shapeshifting Druid who is also a scary sword-and-board warrior and is followed by a wolf.
I'll buy Extra Rage, Wild Speech, Natural Spell and some Feats to boost the shapeshifted wolf form and companion, but does anyone have any other suggestions or comments?
How good are your stats? Did you roll, or did you use Point Buy?
Points buy, 20 points.
STR 14
DEX 14
CON 13 (and to be the first one improved)
INT 10
WIS 16 (includes the +2 racial)
CHA 12
Obviously I'd love to have everything higher but you can't get a gallon out of a pint. I toyed with reducing INT but that didn't seem 'in character' for a Druid and wasn't very point-effective either, especially as I want to get a boat-load of useful skills.
The CHA is lower than I'd like but only for Wild Empathy and Handle Animal. WIS needs to improve, but I don't want to lose AC and Combat as a result. Spellcasting is never going to be the main shtick with this character.
That's the problem with multi-classing, you spread yourself thin Stats-wise.
You might want to check the Druid guides here, assuming they are up to date.
Limitations like these are the reason why I always prefer to roll my stats as both DM and player.
Thanks, but those sort of guides smell too much like min/max for my tastes - fine for competitive play or when you really need the best wizard points can buy, but I tend to build a character to a concept rather than an optimal formula.
Do you want to be dead weight for the party, or do you want to contribute while staying true to your concept?
Those are the two options Pathfinder will give you without some heavy houserules that ease up that part of the game.
Do you want to be dead weight for the party, or do you want to contribute while staying true to your concept?
Those are the two options Pathfinder will give you without some heavy houserules that ease up that part of the game.
I'd like to think that we don't have 'dead-weight' characters, despite not min/maxing. If they are fun to play, they are good characters.
I honestly fail to see much fun in playing a character who almost dies against foes 2 CR below their level.
Then again, the DM might balance things out and play it soft with your group. I'm not the DM, so I wouldn't know.
No, we don't get it played soft. We are intelligent and experienced gamers (all but one over 45 and all but one having played since our teenage years) who use our characters to their best advantage. None of us play min/maxed characters yet we are not in danger of dying against creatures 2CR below our level.
Just because you don't squeeze the last tiny advantage out of a character does not make that character a failure. A good character does not need to be 'the best'.
I am looking for comments about my character concept on this thread. I am not looking for an argument of whether or not I should squeeze the pips out of the rules to have a good and useful character.
I'd like to make it clear that I don't really min/max either.
Thing is, I prefer a healthy balance of numbers and RP when I play.
And really, I tried to give my input. Your bias against the guides isn't my fault.
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Sounds like an interesting character, although it isn't really going to come together until about 10th level or so (the earliest you can have both rage and wild shape)
Personally, I'd raise STR to 16, taking the points out of Wis. Assuming that you can expect to get wisdom enhancing items wish of 14 should see you through. Especially as a mixed class character.
Personally, I find the various guides useful for looking at. They'll often point out ideas, feats, items etc that I'd missed. But then I make my own decisions.
And really, I tried to give my input. Your bias against the guides isn't my fault.
... anywaaay...
Can anyone think of a reason why the character couldn't ride her wolf animal companion when it gets the Large advance?
As the game has canine mounts cropping up fairly commonly, I don't see a real problem with it, but has anyone found any reason why it isn't possible? Obviously we are talking consensual and not in combat, here. In combat I intend to be next to wolfy in a wolf form of my own, taking advantage of pack tactics to bring down the opponent.
Can anyone think of a reason why the character couldn't ride her wolf animal companion when it gets the Large advance?
As the game has canine mounts cropping up fairly commonly, I don't see a real problem with it, but has anyone found any reason why it isn't possible? Obviously we are talking consensual and not in combat, here. In combat I intend to be next to wolfy in a wolf form of my own, taking advantage of pack tactics to bring down the opponent.
Did someone claim it isn't possible?
Goblinoids, especially Goblins, are known to ride Wolves and Worgs.
An exotic saddle would help if you don't have a high rank in Riding though.
Sounds like an interesting character, although it isn't really going to come together until about 10th level or so (the earliest you can have both rage and wild shape)
That's true. I do tend to look for the long-term with characters (very few start off as fully fledged concepts at 1st level). If my current PC dies, however, the Mad Dog Wolf Shaman would slip right in at the same level (that's how we play it to avoid 1st level characters suddenly in a high level party).
Personally, I'd raise STR to 16, taking the points out of Wis. Assuming that you can expect to get wisdom enhancing items wish of 14 should see you through. Especially as a mixed class character.
Very tempting. It's a good point about the WIS, especially as I'm not looking to be a primary spell-caster. Hmmmmm.
Personally, I find the various guides useful for looking at. They'll often point out ideas, feats, items etc that I'd missed. But then I make my own decisions.
I do the same thing by trawling the lists of Feats and so on. It takes me ages to put a concept together because I'll find interesting nuggets in a source that will alter a fundamental aspect of the character.
...I find it hilarious that you dismissed me suggesting the guides, but didn't mind at all when pauljathome mentioned them.
Personally, I'd raise STR to 16, taking the points out of Wis. Assuming that you can expect to get wisdom enhancing items wish of 14 should see you through. Especially as a mixed class character.Very tempting. It's a good point about the WIS, especially as I'm not looking to be a primary spell-caster. Hmmmmm.
With the advice about WIS taken onboard:
STR 16 (including racial bonus)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 13
CHA 12
It feels strange not boosting my WIS but I can't see a real downside. It isn't as though offensive spellcasting is going to be my thing anyhow. Those boosts to STR and CON are major improvements which will bring out the Barbarian aspect, and also make the shapeshifted wolf form more of a viable combat option (especially if also Raged).
I'll have to look at bumping WIS for my level advances, but it should still keep pace with the spell levels required.
Which classes did the other people in the group play?
Unless you just want the Barbarian flavor, the Wild Stalker Ranger archetype could also work with the druid, depending on what you happen to like. Bonus feats with no pre-reqs, vs more rage powers, your call.
I have one in play now, and at 9th level he has rage pounce smite(Celestial Wildshape houseruled to be infernal instead since he's a tiefling), starting stats Str 16 Dex 14 Con 14 int 10 Wis 16 Cha 8 Tiefling with the fiend totem rage power for the gore to drop in the mix.
I looked long and hard at the Ranger, thinking that it was more appropriate for a forest-dwelling pseudo-Celt multiclassed Druid. The Wild Stalker archetype was one that almost sold me on Ranger, because I fancied the Rage ability that Wild Stalker gives.
However, two things made me decide on Mad Dog Barbarian. The Mad Dog gets an Animal Companion at 1st level, thus preventing the Animal Companion losing ground thanks to the multiclass. In addition, once I had the idea of Rage in mind I didn't really want to compromise the appropriate levels. That was unavoidable as it turned out, but the Mad Dog at least gains more animal-appropriate powers in return.
Given that I was a Wolf Shaman, anything that reinforced the 'wolfishness' was good, and the Mad Dog does that to a tee! The D12 HD was a big bonus.
I hear you on the CHA. I'm not generally in favour of reducing stats and tend to put 'wasted' points into stats that support the concept rather than have a optimal mechanical effect. I'd rather like to keep the CHA because I'm toying with taking Leadership at some point - I love the idea of an Awakened animal cohort. The penalty for having an animal companion needs some CHA input to counteract it.
There's a feat named Boon Companion that will make it possible to multi-class to a limited degree without your Animal Companion losing effectiveness.
There is, and I looked at it, but taking that as well as a Ranger is making the Ranger's Animal Companion superfluous. Given that one of my primary reasons for looking at Ranger was to maintain Animal Companion levels, it would have simply made the Barbarian an automatic choice if I had taken Boon Companion.
However, that would have used a Feat slot and I would still have been drawn to the Mad Dog for flavour reasons.
Fair enough, considering that feat slots are limited and all. Is your character a Human?
She will be, yes. Possibly with flavour-text that her ancestry contains Werewolf.
She will be, yes. Possibly with flavour-text that her ancestry contains Werewolf.
Are traits allowed in your campaign?
If you can use traits there are the coherent rage and the animalistic affliction traits which fit your werewolf ancestry flavor.
I like the Animalistic Affliction trait - thanks for that one. It's perfect for the concept.
do you want a werewolf-esque celtic warrior, or do you want a mystic who can transform into a wolf and hold his own in combat? it sounds like right now you're trying to do both and, realistically, you'll probably end up not being very good at either.
if you want the later, just go straight druid. there's no reason you can't play her as a militaristic warrior- you can even favor Str and invest feats in combat (and druids can automatically sword-and-board with a scimitar). if you're not worried about full casting, combining Shaping Focus with Boon Companion would let you take up to 4 levels of a martial class to bolster that with 0 loss of wildshape/companion.
if you want the prior, make a barbarian. take the animal totem and animal fury rage powers and really play up the flavor of it (and talk to the GM and how extreme the physical transformation can be). the mad dog archetype (obviously) gives you the animal companion- if you don't want to slow down your rage you could also get a companion through feats... there's a 2 feat progression (i believe from that animal book they released a little while ago) that gets it (i'm sure someone here can get the names for you, i don't own that one).
Are you able/willing to use 3rd party material? Because there is a 3rd party class called the Wolf shifter in Wayfinder #5. It basically meshes rage with the ability to shift into a hybrid wolf form as a barbarian.
Not sure if it would work with the mad dog barbarian archetype as I'm not personally familiar with it, but it might work well for your concept without having to sacrifice martial prowess for the shape shifting or shape shifting for martial prowess. It isnt a spellcaster, but that seems to be something that would also fit your concept.
do you want a werewolf-esque celtic warrior, or do you want a mystic who can transform into a wolf and hold his own in combat? it sounds like right now you're trying to do both and, realistically, you'll probably end up not being very good at either.
if you want the later, just go straight druid. there's no reason you can't play her as a militaristic warrior- you can even favor Str and invest feats in combat (and druids can automatically sword-and-board with a scimitar).
Yes, I'm looking for a wolf-touched character that is a mystic Druid but also a decent fighting Barbarian. It is a compromise because these things are, but that's what you get for designing characters to a concept rather than optimising.
I did consider the Druid's inherent combat ability but, quite apart from a scimitar not exactly being linked to Celtic warrior tradition, I wanted a character with more combat oomph than the Druid offers. The Barbarian is actually an ideal fit conceptually.
Are you able/willing to use 3rd party material? Because there is a 3rd party class called the Wolf shifter in Wayfinder #5. It basically meshes rage with the ability to shift into a hybrid wolf form as a barbarian.
Our GM is understandably a little reluctant to use 3rd Party stuff. He (and I) have had bad experiences of such things in the past (2ed AD&D 3rd party specifically).
I'll see if I can dig out that class you mention, though. It sounds interesting, although I am also looking at the Animal Companion as part of the concept and I assume Wolf Shifter doesn't get a companion.
Yes, I'm looking for a wolf-touched character that is a mystic Druid but also a decent fighting Barbarian. It is a compromise because these things are, but that's what you get for designing characters to a concept rather than optimising.in that case, i'll refer you to the next line of my previous comment (following what you quoted)-
if you're not worried about full casting, combining Shaping Focus with Boon Companion would let you take up to 4 levels of a martial class to bolster that with 0 loss of wildshape/companion.
those are both feat, and for the cost of those two feats you can take up to 4 levels of standard barbarian and still have a full progression animal companion and wildshape. and, you'd have the rage ability of an 8th level mad dog (i still think animal fury and lesser beast totem would be the way to go for rage powers, although the are kind of useless if you plan to combine wildshape and rage regularly). i have a feeling that you won't like this suggestion either, but the urban barbarian can actually cast spells while raging...
ps- optimizing, to me, doesn't mean just picking the best option in every regard with no concern for concept (that's min/maxing, lol)- it means trying to figure out the best/most functional way that you can put together your concept (no matter how atypical or sub-optimal the concept might seem). it looks like that's exactly what you're doing ;)
Anone else read this concept and think Princess Mononoke?
Princess Mononoke? Is this someone I should investigate?
It's an anime character.
From a really good film.
Once you see how she fights, and her relationship with the wolves, you'll see why I thought this :P
She's not Celtic, but the other similarities are definately there.
Are you able/willing to use 3rd party material? Because there is a 3rd party class called the Wolf shifter in Wayfinder #5. It basically meshes rage with the ability to shift into a hybrid wolf form as a barbarian.Our GM is understandably a little reluctant to use 3rd Party stuff. He (and I) have had bad experiences of such things in the past (2ed AD&D 3rd party specifically).
I'll see if I can dig out that class you mention, though. It sounds interesting, although I am also looking at the Animal Companion as part of the concept and I assume Wolf Shifter doesn't get a companion.
Wayfinder is free, you can both look at it together. I think its pretty solid considering the foundation of the mechanics is rage itself. Its not really a huge separation from the barbarian. I also think with a little tweaking you could fit the mad dog barbarian archetype into the class, you just need to work that out with your dm.
Wow I really like the concept for this character.
Wow I really like the concept for this character.
Thanks. I originally created a fledgling character on the warrior/druidic concept for GURPS Celts.
The wolf aspect got added when I decided that a wolf was a suitable Animal Companion. I then saw the Wolf Shaman Archetype and wove in the whole wolf-tribe background.
The Barbarian class is certainly the best model for a wild Celtic warrior, especially as I wanted the Rage (the original character had various psychological 'issues' with regards Romans, including Berserk and so on). I didn't take it originally because I wanted the Animal Companion to level smoothly and thought Ranger was my best option. Although one of the Ranger Archetypes does have Rage, it is still a Ranger and has a weaker Animal Companion. The Mad Dog Barbarian gets Animal Companion at 1st level, and still Rages (albeit slightly less angrily than a standard Barbarian...). Mad Dog also gets various animal-related bonuses which make the character more tied to her Animal Companion.
The more I wove the character together, the more she became tied to the wolf concept, and suggesting a touch of werewolf in her past is just polishing that concept.
Wow I really like the concept for this character.Thanks. I originally created a fledgling character on the warrior/druidic concept for GURPS Celts.
The wolf aspect got added when I decided that a wolf was a suitable Animal Companion. I then saw the Wolf Shaman Archetype and wove in the whole wolf-tribe background.
The Barbarian class is certainly the best model for a wild Celtic warrior, especially as I wanted the Rage (the original character had various psychological 'issues' with regards Romans, including Berserk and so on). I didn't take it originally because I wanted the Animal Companion to level smoothly and thought Ranger was my best option. Although one of the Ranger Archetypes does have Rage, it is still a Ranger and has a weaker Animal Companion. The Mad Dog Barbarian gets Animal Companion at 1st level, and still Rages (albeit slightly less angrily than a standard Barbarian...). Mad Dog also gets various animal-related bonuses which make the character more tied to her Animal Companion.
The more I wove the character together, the more she became tied to the wolf concept, and suggesting a touch of werewolf in her past is just polishing that concept.
It really sounds like if you could work out with your gm a way to add the mad dog barbarian archetype to the wolf shifter it would be a perfect fit. The flavor of the wolf shifter does alot to match up with where your concept ended up.
Have to add my agreement that this is an awesome concept, and to link in Princess Mononoke, as I agree with Kryzbyn
Lol, substitute 'Romans' for 'humans' and you pretty much have the essence of the character.
It really sounds like if you could work out with your gm a way to add the mad dog barbarian archetype to the wolf shifter it would be a perfect fit. The flavor of the wolf shifter does alot to match up with where your concept ended up.
I'll do that, thanks.
I have finally got the character created. My dwarven Achaeologist/Trophy Hunter was terminated with extreme prejudice by an ogre in the Rise of the Runelords campaign, so the Wolfy Barbarian got her chance.
A few changes to my original build (with thanks to contributors to this thread), although the concept remains the same.
Skinwalker (Werewolf-kin)
Druid 4
Barbarian (True Primitive) 2
Nature Warden 2
STR 16
DEX 16 (using Belt of Dex +2)
CON 16
INT 10 (using Headband of Int +2)
WIS 13
CHA 12
Traits: Lycanthropic Bloodlust, Savage, Beast of the Society, Animalistic Affiliation
Drawbacks: Superstitious, Xenophobic
Feats: Spell Focus (Conjuration), Boon Companion, Shaping Focus, Augment Summoning
Next level's Feat will be Improved Natural Attack, then Natural Spell.
The Skinwalker race gives a pseudo-werewolf (I have the Pelt of the Beast to improve racial powers) which will include the Bite attack and the +2 to Saves.
True Primitive Barbarian gives Favoured Terrain which opens up Nature Warden. The Rage Power for the Barbarian is, naturally enough, the 2xd6 Claws. I see the Rage linking to the Skinwalker shapeshift which will give 1xd6 Bite (d8 at the next level when I get the Feat) plus 2xd6 Claws.
Four levels of Barbarian can be safely taken without compromising Wild Shape or Animal Companion (thanks, nate lange), and the Nature Warden picks up the Animal Companion and improves it. An effective 8 levels of Wild Shape is enough for me (gives Huge and Diminutive) and the duration is a pleasing 16 hours with Beast of the Society.
She is starting with +1 Wild Hide armour, the Pelt of the Beast, a Belt of DEX+2 and Headband of INT+2 (I couldn't cope with the loss of Skill Points 8 INT gave!). I'll look at picking up a Druid Vestment and some protection with my first haul of cash.
She is a fighting scout and at her best in Woodland. Although carrying a battleaxe and shield I foresee that most of her fighting will be done by tooth and claw. The Animal Companion is, as if you hadn't guessed, a Dire Wolf. Named Steppen. Given the character's wolf heritage I am seeing her as much as a wolf taking human form as vice-versa. It makes the implied relationship with Steppen potentially more... interesting.