seebs wrote: Crash_00, your reading strikes me as incorrect. The bonus described in temporary ability scores is clearly stated as a bonus to damage and skill checks, not a bonus to your ability modifier. Yeah...no. You have to read the entire section in context with each other. Seriously, read the sections, because I'm assuming that you haven't with that conclusion.
Quote: Ability Score Bonuses
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores.
Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give
only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase
to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics
listed with the relevant ability.
I've already detailed how a bonus, in this context, is a positive ability modifier. Feel free to debate that if you want, but there really isn't an alternate viewpoint to argue. For the purpose of this post, I'm going to call the italicized portion of this section Part A.
Quote: Strength: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense. Now, keeping Part A in mind, how much of a bonus is given to your Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapons damage rolls?
You have two choices here. Either this section is linked to Part A which means that the bolded word bonus is referring to a positive modifier for the ability in question (Strength), or there is no link between the two in which case we are never told how much of a bonus we get from temporary increases.
Which seems more logical, the entire section working within context with itself, or the each section being independent where all the bonuses are left without a numerical definition to how much they grant?
The section on Strength is limiting what this new modifier applies to, not redefining the modifier to a different type of bonus.
Quote: Your reading seems contingent on the assumption that, if your ability modifier is applied to certain things, then whatever is applied to those things is your ability modifier. That's not how it works. Again, false. You are using faulty logic here. The proposal isn't that everything applied to those things is an ability modifier. The proposal I gave is that a bonus from increased ability score is, as the rules define it, a bonus to the modifier. When discussing ability scores, a bonus is always a positive modifier. An bonus from an increased score has to be a positive modifier (+1 per two points is never going to a negative modifier).
Here are the parts of the section that you are ignoring:
Quote: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus This bonus is directly tied to your strength score. It is a positive modifier (as defined on page 16 of the CRB). You could swap bonus with the words "positive modifier" and nothing would change. That's not enough proof? Where is this bonus defined?
Quote: For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. The heading of this sections is ability score bonuses. Again, page 16 defines bonuses in relation to ability scores as a positive modifier. The only change that we are given for temporary bonuses is a change in what they apply to. Instead of applying to everything related to strength, the temporary bonus only applies to what is listed on page 554.
Again, you can disagree if you wish, but the burden of proof is fairly high on your side at this point because of several factors:
A.) My reading of the rules is consistent with the definitions given.
B.) My reading of the rules does not break the way the rules work normally.
C.) Your reading of the rules is not consistent with the definitions given.
D.) Your reading of the rules ignores the context of the Ability Score Bonuses section.
E.) Your reading of the rules breaks the way the rules normally work.
If one interpretation is consistent and causes the rules to work the same way they always do, and follows every single stat example given, and the other fails on every single one of those points, it should be obvious which one is right.
Again, feel free to debate, but please provide some sources for your claims.
Quote: Touch armor class specify what is not applied. Temporary bonuses to AC aren't on the exclusion list, so they apply. The bonus does not need to be listed. It is a bonus to the modifier (a positive modifier) and is thus part of the Dex bonus.
Quote: Going strictly by RAW he is correct. The only way he is correct by RAW is if the following text does not appear in the rulebook:
Quote: Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table 1–3 shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren’t die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. With that in mind, it is entirely clear exactly what Ability Score Bonuses are (which are the entire subject of the matter on page 554 seeing as how it is the heading of the topic). A bonus to an ability score bonus is by definition, an bonus to the ability score modifier, or a positive modifier to the ability score modifier. This is fairly basic logic.
wraithstrike wrote:
In case you missed a dev disagrees with your interpretation of how strength capacity would be affected. Are you going to stick with your "common sense" argument?
Yes, because common sense (with or without quotes) matters to me.
And if I'm to believe this thread there are devs on both sides of the issue, not one.
wraithstrike wrote:
edit:We are looking for rules not what someone may think is logical. It is not "logical" to give a reflex save to a paralyzed person, but the rules allow it.
Your Dex score is treated as zero while paralyzed, which affects those same reflex saves and is again common sense.
Carrying Capacity not being affected is a matter of simplicity rather than logic. The purpose of the temporary bonus rules is to keep from having to recalculate a whole lot of statistics in combat. It makes the game play faster, and that's a good thing in most devs opinions when it comes to tabletop games.
PRD: "Strength: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense."
"Damage rolls when using a melee weapon or a thrown weapon, including a sling. (Exceptions: Off-hand attacks receive only half the character's Strength bonus, while two-handed attacks receive 1–1/2 times the Strength bonus. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies to attacks made with a bow that is not a composite bow.)"
Seems RAW is pretty clear here. Temporary increase gives you a bonus to your strength bonus. That bonus is used for damage amoung other things. If you use a two handed weapon it's 1.5 times that bonus. The bonus is higher so that damage is higher +4 give you a +2 bonus to you strength bonus and is +3 damage with power attack.
Temporary bonus won't allow you to carry more as that is based of the strength stat not the bonus. This applies in reverse too if you have temporary loss of strength your carry capacity doesn't go down but you strength bonus does and you damage would decrease.
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Psyren wrote:
Your Dex score is treated as zero while paralyzed, which affects those same reflex saves and is again common sense.
But they still allow a reflex save.
There are a lot of things that are common sense that the rules don't support. An advance firearm, rifle, does the same amount of damage as a heavy crossbow, while my common sense says that it should be doing a lot more.
Crash_00 wrote: With that in mind, it is entirely clear exactly what Ability Score Bonuses are (which are the entire subject of the matter on page 554 seeing as how it is the heading of the topic). A bonus to an ability score bonus is by definition, an bonus to the ability score modifier, or a positive modifier to the ability score modifier. This is fairly basic logic. That seems entirely off to me.
An Ability Score Bonuses, as used in the heading of that section, is the bonus (temporary in this case) to the ability score, not to the modifier. At least that's how I always read it.
Like they distinguish elsewhere in the larger section between permanent and temporary bonuses.
Psyren wrote: wraithstrike wrote:
In case you missed a dev disagrees with your interpretation of how strength capacity would be affected. Are you going to stick with your "common sense" argument?
Yes, because common sense (with or without quotes) matters to me.
And if I'm to believe this thread there are devs on both sides of the issue, not one.
wraithstrike wrote:
edit:We are looking for rules not what someone may think is logical. It is not "logical" to give a reflex save to a paralyzed person, but the rules allow it.
Your Dex score is treated as zero while paralyzed, which affects those same reflex saves and is again common sense. Well if the devs don't even agree, then it is not common sense. Don't confuse what is convenient with what is common sense or what the rules intend.<---That is my point.
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Psyren wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
edit:We are looking for rules not what someone may think is logical. It is not "logical" to give a reflex save to a paralyzed person, but the rules allow it.
Your Dex score is treated as zero while paralyzed, which affects those same reflex saves and is again common sense.
Also, by RAW and RAI you still get a reflex save, but with a -5 penalty..That is in the book, so once again the rules as intended, not just as written trump common sense as you would call it.
thejeff wrote: Crash_00 wrote: With that in mind, it is entirely clear exactly what Ability Score Bonuses are (which are the entire subject of the matter on page 554 seeing as how it is the heading of the topic). A bonus to an ability score bonus is by definition, an bonus to the ability score modifier, or a positive modifier to the ability score modifier. This is fairly basic logic. That seems entirely off to me.
An Ability Score Bonuses, as used in the heading of that section, is the bonus (temporary in this case) to the ability score, not to the modifier. At least that's how I always read it.
Like they distinguish elsewhere in the larger section between permanent and temporary bonuses. Read page 15-16. The section Determining Bonuses defines bonus (when referring to Ability Scores) as a positive modifier.
Re-read the section on page 554. What is the section about? Is it about a bonus to the ability score, or is it about how a bonus to the ability score affects that score's bonus (positive ability modifier)?
Look at the actual wording used in the section (on page 554):
Quote: Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. Let's use Bull's Strength as an example. Bull's Strength give a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength. We should be together so far.
Where does that +4 enhancement bonus to Strength fall in the quote above? It isn't the temporary bonus. It is the ability score increase. Since the ability score increase has a duration of less than one day, it only gives a temporary bonus. The bonus is separated from the ability score increase. They are clearly not the same thing.
So what is the temporary bonus? Well, for that we have to finish reading.
Quote: For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. Here we have it. The temporary bonus is the +1 bonus/2 points of ability increase.
So, to sum up:
Ability Increase = Bull's Strength
Temporary Bonus = +2 to Strength Modifier for Strength based skills, melee attacks, damage (based on Strength), CMB, and CMD.
@Crash: Reading the rules and comprehending the rules are two very, very different things. You have read the rules. You have failed to comprehend them because you cherry-pick the lines and phrases that conform to your preconceived notion and entirely discount the lines that would negate your interpretation.
PRD wrote: Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Modify all skills and statistics related to that ability. This might cause you to gain skill points, hit points, and other bonuses. These bonuses should be noted separately in case they are removed. This sub-section denotes that Permanent Ability Bonuses "actually increase the relevant ability score. Therefore Ability Bonuses that are not permanent (temporary ones) do not "actually increase the relevant ability score". But lo now, what happens with all other bonuses? A bonus to damage actually increases your damage. A bonus to AC actually increases your AC. A bonus to wood chucking actually increases your ability to chuck wood. So why is it that a temporary bonus doesn't actually increase your ability score? Because specific trumps general. The general rule regarding bonuses is that they increase what they increase. However, temporary attribute bonuses are specially handled with an exception to this general rule. So you can't keep crying about "bonuses mean this" because that's the general rule which, explicitly, does not apply here. If it did, there would be absolutely no distinction between Temporary and Permanent bonuses. So now, we read the section to find out precisely how Temporary bonuses are handled.
PRD wrote: For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. "...the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability." Does it say to add a bonus to your modifier? No. I challenge you to find anywhere in the section regarding bonuses to attributes where it says to change your stat modifier. It only implies that in one section and that's the section regarding Permanent bonuses; you recalculate your modifier because your actual attribute score has changed. Let me type this slow and in no uncertain terms:
The...section... regarding... attribute... bonuses... is... written... poorly. It... should... be... changed.
Savvy?
Crash_00 wrote: Seriously, read the sections, because I'm assuming that you haven't with that conclusion. Your assumption is wrong.
Quote: Quote: Ability Score Bonuses
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores.
Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give
only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase
to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics
listed with the relevant ability.
I've already detailed how a bonus, in this context, is a positive ability modifier. Feel free to debate that if you want, but there really isn't an alternate viewpoint to argue. For the purpose of this post, I'm going to call the italicized portion of this section Part A.
I am unable to figure out what you are saying here. An ability score bonus is a bonus to an ability. But the bonus applied to the skills and statistics listed is a bonus to those skills and statistics, and is not an ability score bonus. This is talking about how a bonus to one thing can lead to a bonus to another. A bonus to strength can lead to a bonus to damage. That doesn't mean the damage bonus is a "strength bonus".
wraithstrike wrote: Going strictly by RAW he is correct. I going Strictly RAW I don't agree with you or him.
seebs wrote: Ability Score Bonuses
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores.
Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give
only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase
to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics
listed with the relevant ability.
The bold is the relevant rules (increase it but only temporarily) and the italicized details for example the kinds of things changed. This section doesn't detail all changes that a temporary bonus changes (for example carrying capacity and DC for various things using strange abilities as clarified by SKR.)
The rules do increase the abilities both for temporary and permanent, you just don't get all the goodies on temp bonuses.
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This thread not need troll.
Quote from that other thread:
Sean K Reynolds wrote: Cheapy wrote: Does the same sort of thing apply to penalties? For example, I seem to recall strength damage from a shadow doesn't actually change your carrying capacity. It makes sense to apply it to ability score penalties/damage/drain as well.
Joana wrote: What about Selective Channeling, Sean? Would eagle's splendor mean you could exclude more individuals from your channeling? I would allow that. Can anyone think of other cases where it's not a DC or a roll, like Str and carrying capacity? SKR is good with words and it is very interesting that he says: “It makes sense to apply it to ability score penalties/damage/drain as well.”
He doesn’t say carrying capacity is affected by ability score penalties and damage, he just says that it make sense.
What is obvious is that, unlike drain, Strength penalty and Strength damage does not affect you actual strength score.
Carrying capacity is not based on your Strength modifier, it is based on your Strength score and that score isn’t affected.
It is funny how often this question comes up and it will probably continue to pop up since no one is hitting the FAQ. I probably should have had one thread per question instead of one question per post. Well, well, you learn something every day.
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James Risner wrote: wraithstrike wrote: Going strictly by RAW he is correct. I going Strictly RAW I don't agree with you or him.
seebs wrote: Ability Score Bonuses
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores.
Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give
only temporary bonuses. For every two points of increase
to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics
listed with the relevant ability.
The bold is the relevant rules (increase it but only temporarily) and the italicized details for example the kinds of things changed. This section doesn't detail all changes that a temporary bonus changes (for example carrying capacity and DC for various things using strange abilities as clarified by SKR.)
The rules do increase the abilities both for temporary and permanent, you just don't get all the goodies on temp bonuses. No. "the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability" means "the specific shorter list listed under temporary bonuses". Which is not the same as the things that are affected by permanent changes. The entire point of this rule is to make temporary bonuses have different effects from permanent ones.
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In 3.5 temporary bonuses added to the ability score. The wording was completely rewritten for pathfinder. Why would they do that if they wanted it to still work like 3.5?
Clearly they wanted SOME change since 3.5 when it comes to temporary ability scores.
Its called quick-rules, they use same when applying templates. I prefer to recalculate things tho.
Quote: @Crash: Reading the rules and comprehending the rules are two very, very different things. You have read the rules. You have failed to comprehend them because you cherry-pick the lines and phrases that conform to your preconceived notion and entirely discount the lines that would negate your interpretation. So actually paying attention to all the rules is now cherry picking? Or is it just paying attention to the rules that you are ignoring that makes it cherry picking? Where are these lines that hurt my interpretation. Please provide them. If you don't provide them, I can't tell you how you're reading them wrong.
Quote: This sub-section denotes that Permanent Ability Bonuses "actually increase the relevant ability score. Therefore Ability Bonuses that are not permanent (temporary ones) do not "actually increase the relevant ability score". Never said that they do. Ability increases that last less than one day, work as the rules state:
Quote: For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. The increase for temporary bonuses only applies to the listed skills and statistics, not everything (as an actual increase would).
Quote: But lo now, what happens with all other bonuses? A bonus to damage actually increases your damage. A bonus to AC actually increases your AC. A bonus to wood chucking actually increases your ability to chuck wood. So why is it that a temporary bonus doesn't actually increase your ability score? Because specific trumps general. The general rule regarding bonuses is that they increase what they increase. However, temporary attribute bonuses are specially handled with an exception to this general rule. So you can't keep crying about "bonuses mean this" because that's the general rule which, explicitly, does not apply here. If it did, there would be absolutely no distinction between Temporary and Permanent bonuses. So now, we read the section to find out precisely how Temporary bonuses are handled. So much wrong with this.
Please, refer me to the rules where the bonus is actually defined for a temporary strength bonus. Where is it quantified. Where is it stated that it is only applied to certain skills and statistics. It's not in the strength portion of page 554. It's in the Ability Score Bonuses general portion above strength (for reference, I've already quoted it above).
Why is that important? It nullifies you entire argument. There is no specific rule trumping a general rule as you propose. You see that +1 bonus in bold up there. By the definition on page 16, you can replace it with +1 modifier and it is the same thing. The text from strength on page 554 is:
Quote: Strength: Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense. The bolded bonus in this quote can also be replaced with the word modifier and nothing changes. You assumption that bonus is not referring to modifier ignores the definition of bonus in the context of ability scores. You say that it's because of a specific rule, but where is this specific rule.
I'm going to bold this next bit, because it's important at showing how faulty your stance is. Your proposal is that the Permanent Bonuses Section invalidates my interpretation because it states (through implication) that temporary bonuses don't increase the actual ability score. However, my stance is that temporary bonuses increase the ability modifier for specific purposes (not the score). The Permanent Bonuses section says nothing to contradict my stance.
In other words, you may have read my posts, but you clearly didn't comprehend them.
"...the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability." Does it say to add a bonus to your modifier? No. I challenge you to find anywhere in the section regarding bonuses to attributes where it says to change your stat modifier. It only implies that in one section and that's the section regarding Permanent bonuses; you recalculate your modifier because your actual attribute score has changed. Let me type this slow and in no uncertain terms: Sigh. You still manage to miss the point entirely, and I'm beginning to think it's willful. Here it goes again.
Let's provide the whole sentence we're working with since it is important:
Quote: For every two points of [/b]increase to a single ability[/b], apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. What is this bonus though? The +1 bonus, I'm going to bold this, is a positive ability modifier. It is defined to be such on page 16 of the CRB. It is the definition of an Ability Score Bonus. The rules don't need to say to apply it to your ability score modifier, because that is redundant. It would be like saying you get a +1 damage bonus to damage, a +1 size bonus to hit due to size, a +4 Enhancement bonus to Strength due to enhancement. All of those are redundant. If bonus already means (positive modifier) in the context of ability scores as we know it does from page 16 of the CRB, then nothing more is needed for us to know that the +1 bonus is an increase to the ability modifier.
That is where you are failing. You see ability score bonus and are associating it with a bonus to an ability score instead of the bonus granted by the ability score. They are not the same thing.
Let's look at Belt of Giant's Strength real quick. It gives an enhancement bonus to strength. Your Strength score give you a Strength bonus. Those two things are not one and the same.
Where, in the Permanent Bonuses section does it imply that the bonus granted by Temporary Bonuses are not to the modifier? The burden of proof here is on your now.
Quote: The...section... regarding... attribute... bonuses... is... written... poorly. It... should... be... changed.
Savvy?
No. It is written perfectly fine if you bother to apply it with the definitions given and, I'll be just as slow for you read...all...the...rules.
Quote: I am unable to figure out what you are saying here. An ability score bonus is a bonus to an ability. But the bonus applied to the skills and statistics listed is a bonus to those skills and statistics, and is not an ability score bonus. This is talking about how a bonus to one thing can lead to a bonus to another. A bonus to strength can lead to a bonus to damage. That doesn't mean the damage bonus is a "strength bonus". @Seebs
Apparently I assumed right, because you are wrong here. Entirely wrong even. An ability score bonus is not, as you put it, "a bonus to an ability." That is exactly what you said it is, "a bonus to an ability."
An Ability Score Bonus is defined on page 16. I've already provided this, but here we go yet again:
Quote: Determine Bonuses
Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table 1–3 shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren’t die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. The table also shows bonus spells, which you’ll need to know about if your character is a spellcaster.
This is where we learn what an ability score bonus is. You already have this down in your response above. You mention a strength bonus. What is is Strength? Strength is an ability score. A Strength bonus is an Ability Score Bonus. This is just simple logic and definitions.
In short, no, a bonus to an ability score is not the same thing as an ability score bonus. Just like a bonus to strength is not the same thing as a strength bonus.
Quote: In 3.5 temporary bonuses added to the ability score. The wording was completely rewritten for pathfinder. Why would they do that if they wanted it to still work like 3.5?
Clearly they wanted SOME change since 3.5 when it comes to temporary ability scores.
There is a difference between 3.5 and Pathfinder. Temporary bonuses only give you a partial modifier change (they change your modifier only for certain things), while Permanent Bonuses give you a full ability score change (affecting everything that the ability score affects, including the modifier for all purposes).
The things that Temporary Bonuses change are simple and easy to calculate, and for the most part have heavy use in combat.
Crash_00 wrote: Just to be clear what your final outcome is, you're arguing that the bonuses you get for temporary enhancements to abilities are treated exactly like the normal modifiers you get from those abilities, but only apply to the listed things, correct?
Thus, if using a 2-handed weapon a temporary +4 to STR gives +3 damage, but if using weapon finesse a temporary +4 to DEX gives no attack bonus, since that's not listed as a thing increased by a temporary enhancement to Dex.
Pretty much, thejeff, you seem to have gotten it.
While +4 Dex from a temporary source would give no attack bonus to a weapon finessed attack, a +4 Str from a temporary source would give a bonus to weapon finessed attacks and their damage as well (Str gives a bonus to melee attacks in general, it is not limited to Str based melee attacks).
Similarly, even if the player used another stat for a ranged attack (like Str due to a Belt of Mighty Hurling), a temporary bonus would have to be to Dex to benefit the ranged attack (it's the only temporary bonus that adds to ranged attacks).
seebs wrote: No. "the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability" means "the specific shorter list listed under temporary bonuses". Which is not the same as the things that are affected by permanent changes. The entire point of this rule is to make temporary bonuses have different effects from permanent ones. No that is just an English word used for an typical meaning, just like page 14 says "basic attributes and are used to decide a wide variety of details and statistics."
Ilja wrote: In 3.5 temporary bonuses added to the ability score. The wording was completely rewritten for pathfinder. Why would they do that if they wanted it to still work like 3.5? To make it easier to understand (which apparently isn't working) and to make sure things like bonuses to INT grant skill points and languages.
James Risner wrote: To make it easier to understand (which apparently isn't working) and to make sure things like bonuses to INT grant skill points and languages. Temporary bonuses to Int don't grant skill points or languages. Just a bonus to Int-based skill checks (ie. Knowledge, Spellcraft) and DCs based on Int. You need to have the bonus for 24 hours so it transitions to permanent and even then, it was errata'ed such that an item that grants a bonus to Intelligence is "keyed" to a particular language and skill so that you can't just get the benefit of one language or skill, take the item off to lose the permanent bonus, put it back on, and wait another 24 hours to get a completely different language or skill.
Lotion wrote: Psyren wrote:
Your Dex score is treated as zero while paralyzed, which affects those same reflex saves and is again common sense.
But they still allow a reflex save. Right, but getting a positive reflex with 0 Dex basically requires magic anyway and so can be handwaved. Whereas getting stronger without actually getting stronger can't.
There's a line that can be drawn before things get too ridiculous and that is one of the places where I draw mine.
Zark wrote:
He doesn’t say carrying capacity is affected by ability score penalties and damage, he just says that it make sense.
Sounds like he's in favor of common sense then.
James, the modifier from a temporary bonus does not apply to everything. It only applies to what is listed on page 554. That is the entire difference between temporary and permanent bonuses. Permanent applies to everything, temporary applies to a very specific list of combat vital statistics. It is to make applying buffs simpler because you only have to calculate simple bonuses in increments of +1.
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Crash_00 wrote: Our definitions are as follows:
Ability Modifier = the number you [add or subtract] to a roll from the ability (positive or negative).
Ability Bonus = A positive ability modifier.
Ability Penalty = A negative ability modifier.
Okay, I agree with all this.
Crash_00 wrote: If the duration is less than 1 day (24 hours) the increase is a temporary bonus. Ok. That's simple. What is a bonus? A bonus is a, as defined in the rules, positive modifier to the ability score. And this is where I feel you are perhaps reading a bit too much into the rules.
PF Core Rulebook 6th Printing, page 11 wrote: Bonus: Bonuses are numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores. Most bonuses have a type, and as a general rule, bonuses of the same type are not cumulative (do not “stack”)—only the greater bonus granted applies. The terms bonus is broader than just referring to ability bonuses. An ability bonus is a bonus, but not all bonuses are ability bonuses (some are circumstance bonuses, some are enhancement bonuses, etc and some are untyped).
Crash_00 wrote: You could try to claim that this is just a random nameless bonus to rolls instead of to the ability modifier, but that ignores the context of the section and the header of Ability Score Bonuses. This temporary bonus is a positive modifier to the ability modifier. There is no wiggle room here for alternate interpretation. These terms are clearly defined. Okay, so you recognise that the term "bonus" is broader than just ability bonuses, but are arguing that the section header of "Ability Score Bonuses" is context that makes that word "bonus" in the sentence "For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability." read as "ability bonus".
I have a couple of problems with that:
Firstly the section header is "Ability Score Bonuses", i.e. we are talking about bonuses to the Ability Score, not the Modifier. If the section were talking about Ability Modifier Bonuses then I may agree with you, but then that would mean a +4 Strength bonus from Bull's Strength would add +4 to Strength skill checks, damage etc, when actually that is not the case (i.e. the +4 enhancement bonus is to the score, not the modifier). So yeah, I don't agree that gives context for applying a type to the bonus.
Secondly if we were to interpret the word "bonus" in the sentence to mean "ability bonus" it would read as:
"For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 ability bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability."
Now, if that were the case, that would seem to read as applying a +1 ability bonus in place of any bonus (or penalty) from the characters actual ability, which I think you will agree isn't what is intended.
To match your interpretation the sentence would have to read:
"For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the ability modifier when making skill checks and calculating the statistics listed with the relevant ability."
If it read like that, it would be clear that for every two points of an ability score bonus, you add +1 to the ability modifier whether that modifier is currently a penalty or a bonus.
Crash_00 wrote: The only way it is ambiguous is if you ignore part of the rules as they are laid out. Nope, can't agree with you. You seem to feel that the rules are clear but I feel that you are conflating Ability Score Bonuses with Ability Bonuses and thus reading more into the word "bonus" then you should.
Personally it would have been good if Paizo had avoided the term "bonus" when referring to Ability Score Bonuses and Penalties, and instead referred to such exclusively as Ability Score Increases and Reductions (they pretty much do in the text anyway).
For example by changing only two words in the section (one in the header and one in the first paragraph, see how it reads:
Ability Score Increases
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary benefits. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
If it were written like that, would you be more inclined to understand the reading of the rules that interprets the bonus as being an untyped bonus to skills and certain listed statistics e.g. CMB, CMD etc?
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If temporary ability bonuses grant ability bonuses rather than untyped bonuses, they do not stack.
Ability bonuses, AFAIK, are not noted as stacking. Thus, getting an additional +2 strength bonus would not stack with the one from having a 14+ strength score.
Interpreting the temporary strength bonus from Bull's Strength to grant a strength bonus to damage etc thus has quite severe consequences.
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Ilja wrote: If temporary ability bonuses grant ability bonuses rather than untyped bonuses, they do not stack.
Ability bonuses, AFAIK, are not noted as stacking. Thus, getting an additional +2 strength bonus would not stack with the one from having a 14+ strength score.
Interpreting the temporary strength bonus from Bull's Strength to grant a strength bonus to damage etc thus has quite severe consequences.
PRD wrote:
Table: Ability Modifiers and Bonus Spells
Ability Score / Modifier
...
Strength (Str)
...
You apply your character's Strength modifier to:
It is a modifier.
If you get a bonus to a modifier, they stack.
Two bonus or 2 modifiers don't stack.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber
While I agree that the rules are poorly phrased, bear in mind that, as has often been pointed out on the forums, the rules are intended to be read with some amount of common sense.
IMO, parsing the rules to say that, for example, any extra damage from a temporary increase in strength does not benefit from a 1.5 multiplier when wielding a weapon two handed, or that a finesse weapon does not get benefits from a boost to dexterity, flies in the face of that principle.
Diego Rossi wrote:
It is a modifier.
If you get a bonus to a modifier, they stack.
Two bonus or 2 modifiers don't stack.
"Bonus" and "penalty" are both just subsets of "modifier". A "bonus" is a modifier's positive value, or zero if the modifier is negative. A "penalty" is a modifier's negative value, or zero if the modifier is positive.
Whether things are bonuses, modifiers, or penalties has no effect whatsoever on whether they stack. It is totally irrelevant. What affects stacking is their types; modifiers (or bonuses, or penalties) of the same "type" don't stack, unless the type is a dodge bonus to AC. Untyped modifiers stack.
... Which makes me realize, I've been misreading this, because strength damage is not a "temporary bonus", because it is not any kind of bonus at all. It's not a positive modifier.
JohnF wrote: IMO, parsing the rules to say that, for example, any extra damage from a temporary increase in strength does not benefit from a 1.5 multiplier when wielding a weapon two handed, or that a finesse weapon does not get benefits from a boost to dexterity, flies in the face of that principle. I couldn't agree more.
For some reason this reminds me of the type of threads we had in 3.5 days on WotC forums. On things like "does spells per day limit the number spells you can cast per day?" where you would have hundreds of pages of people adamantly stating that you could get 9 copies of your "spells per day" and in effect cast hundreds of spells in a single 24 hour period.
JohnF wrote: IMO, parsing the rules to say that, for example, any extra damage from a temporary increase in strength does not benefit from a 1.5 multiplier when wielding a weapon two handed, or that a finesse weapon does not get benefits from a boost to dexterity, flies in the face of that principle. Whilst I could agree somewhat on the Dexterity Score Increase leading to a bonus on attack rolls when Dexterity is the primary ability rather than strength (e.g. due to Weapon Finesse), I could imagine the rules for Strength Score increase related damage bonuses may actually have been intended not to be affected by any multiplier - a concession for speed of play.
And that is the trouble, even reading with an amount of common sense there is no clear RAI.
Also, with PFS play where RAW is much more important to a consistent play experience, having clear rules is much more important - so if the RAI is a change to the ability modifier for purposes of skill checks and calculating certain statistics then that should be made clear.
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This is all madness. This is when the game stops being fun, when every word is dissected and micromanaged. Something as simple as "This spell boosts your strength by 4 for a duration of 5 minutes" turns into this 130+ post argument. Too many micromanagement rules when just treating the strength as 4 higher for a short time is simple enough. This is why I have drifted away from RAW and make the game more fluid with house-rules. Rules are bloating more and more with every FAQ (don't even want to think about the SLA FAQ)
but it isn't a concession for speed play, though, as it goes against the principles of other rules in the game. I can add another +1 much faster than I can have to figure out that the temporary rule is an exception. Whenever we get to rules like this, that stand out, it takes time because we have to spend a minute remembering there's a weird application, for example, with temporary stats.
Even temporary negative levels, which are also designed for speed play, often cause me more trouble because I have to stop and remember that they are a unique rule.
Complicated but consistent is actually "speedier" than simple but random as far as game recollection goes.
From another thread, this:
Umbranus wrote: I have seen more games run into problems or falling apart by using "common sense" than by following strict RAW.
Everyone has a different view on common sense. What one sees as common sense is absurd for the next guy.
Quote: Ability Score Increases
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary benefits. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
If it were written like that, would you be more inclined to understand the reading of the rules that interprets the bonus as being an untyped bonus to skills and certain listed statistics e.g. CMB, CMD etc?
No. That actually would be clearer in my opinion. It makes the distinction between the ability increase (ie the affect causing the increase the to the ability score, such as Bull's Strength) and the temporary bonus (the limited bonus to you modifier) clearer. As it is now, people read Ability Score Bonuses and think mistakenly, as you do, that it heading is meant to cover the bonus to an ability instead of the bonus (modifier) the ability score gives.
Here is, again, a quick question for you to answer.
A.) Does Strength = an ability score?
B.) Does Strength bonus = a positive modifier from an ability score?
If both those are yes, then it should be obvious that Strength bonus, by pure definition is an Ability Score Bonus.
Now, let's try the next part.
A.) Does Strength = an ability score?
C.) Does a bonus to strength = a positive modifier from an ability score?
Here is the trap. A.) is true. It is un-debatable. Now, you have four options for B and C. Either 1.) they are both true, 2.) they are both false, 3.) B is true and C is false, or 4.) C is true and B is false.
Case 1 - Since both are true, this entire debate is pointless as both would benefit from the multiplying that THF and OHF apply toward strength bonus damage.
Case 2 - Since both are false, this entire debate is pointless as neither would benefit from the multiplying that THF and OHF apply toward strength bonus damage. Then again, with B false, strength bonus doesn't exist.
Case 3 - It is clear in this case (the one I believe to be true) that a strength bonus (an ability score bonus by definition) is multiplied by THF and OHF. It is also clear by the plain logic that any of the ability score modifiers with a positive number are ability score bonuses.
Case 4 - If this is the case, then the definition on page 16 is wrong. Silly devs writing wrong things in the book.
Quote: Firstly the section header is "Ability Score Bonuses", i.e. we are talking about bonuses to the Ability Score, not the Modifier. If the section were talking about Ability Modifier Bonuses then I may agree with you, but then that would mean a +4 Strength bonus from Bull's Strength would add +4 to Strength skill checks, damage etc, when actually that is not the case (i.e. the +4 enhancement bonus is to the score, not the modifier). So yeah, I don't agree that gives context for applying a type to the bonus. Not if you read the actual section in context. The bonus applied to the ability is, in the section, referred to as the ability increase or increase to the ability. It is never referred to as a bonus in this section. The only thing that is referred to as a bonus is what stems from the ability increase.
Every two points of increase (the +4 from Bull's Strength is the increase) gives a +1 bonus (positive ability score modifier).
Again, this is basic english definitions and logic.
Are Strength, Dexterity, Constitution, Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma ability scores?
Is a positive modifier from an ability score defined as a bonus on page 16?
If those are both yes, then Strength Bonus, Dexterity Bonus, Constitution Bonus, Intelligence Bonus, Wisdom Bonus, and Charisma Bonus are all synonyms for Ability Score Bonus with regards to that Ability Score. The section has rules for every single ability score, so Ability Score Bonuses is the only way to title it.
It is blatantly not titled Bonuses to Ability Scores, which would mean what you are implying.
Quote: Secondly if we were to interpret the word "bonus" in the sentence to mean "ability bonus" it would read as: "For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 ability bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability."
Now, if that were the case, that would seem to read as applying a +1 ability bonus in place of any bonus (or penalty) from the characters actual ability, which I think you will agree isn't what is intended.
No. You would not need to put ability there because it would be redundant. When referring to an ability score, as this entire section does, bonus is already defined.
Even if it were required, there is no implication that +1 would mean replace rather than following standard math and adding +1 to the modifier. Generally a + sign means addition. Addition means we add it to. It would have to state that this is in place of the characters normal modifier.
If an ability adds +1 sneak attack damage, does that mean it replaces your normal sneak attack damage?
Quote: To match your interpretation the sentence would have to read:
"For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the ability modifier when making skill checks and calculating the statistics listed with the relevant ability."
If it read like that, it would be clear that for every two points of an ability score bonus, you add +1 to the ability modifier whether that modifier is currently a penalty or a bonus.
Again, not needed as it would be redundant.
If bonus is defined as a positive modifier, then a +1 bonus is already a +1 modifier. The word apply tells us this is added in addition to what we already have. Nothing extra is needed unless you ignore the definition of bonus from page 16.
Quote: If temporary ability bonuses grant ability bonuses rather than untyped bonuses, they do not stack.
Ability bonuses, AFAIK, are not noted as stacking. Thus, getting an additional +2 strength bonus would not stack with the one from having a 14+ strength score.
No. It isn't a typed bonus to the modifier, so it stacks just fine with the modifier. A 14 strength gives you a +2 Strength Bonus (Ability Score Bonus). Bull's Strength has you apply a +2 bonus (modifier) to your Strength Bonus (modifier) for certain purposes.
There is no contradiction here.
Sloanzilla wrote: but it isn't a concession for speed play, though, as it goes against the principles of other rules in the game. I can add another +1 much faster than I can have to figure out that the temporary rule is an exception. Whenever we get to rules like this, that stand out, it takes time because we have to spend a minute remembering there's a weird application, for example, with temporary stats.
Even temporary negative levels, which are also designed for speed play, often cause me more trouble because I have to stop and remember that they are a unique rule.
Complicated but consistent is actually "speedier" than simple but random as far as game recollection goes.
I agree on the last point, and I think a few fixes would make these rules work as they are meant too (primarily every stat affecting attack roles that rely on that stat similar to how strength affects damage (based on strength)).
While the end product isn't speedier in some cases (the one listed above being the primary case in my opinion), it is most of the time. It helps not having to stop and recalculate the Barbarians carrying capacity constantly .
It is also speedier to not affect X uses/day where X relies on the stats modifier. They would either have to come up with a new rule to cover what happens when you buff runs out (was the "bonus" us used first? Do you automatically loose a use? Can you get multiple bonus uses per day if you get multiple buffs to that stat in a day, or do you have to keep track of what modifiers of bonus uses you've used already). Less book keeping always makes for quicker game play.
Part of it is likely due to balance as well (being able to get X ranks in any skill you want and Language Y every time your Int is buffed would be problematic for balance). Likewise the bonus uses I mentioned would have to be looked at significantly to strike a balance with them. Getting rid of these balance issue makes things simple, and thus speeds up game play.
I think I mostly agree with your conclusions, but I think you are using words to refer to wrong things.
The "temporary bonus" is the bonus to your ability score. Bull's strength gives you a "temporary bonus" to strength. This in turn gives you a +2 bonus to a few specific things, such as melee weapon attack rolls. The term "temporary bonus" does not refer to the bonus to melee weapon attack, it refers to the initial +4 to strength granted by bull's strength.
The point of the rule is twofold.
First, it solves problems like "okay, I put on my headband of vast intellect, and I put the new skill points in knowledge (arcana)", or "okay, I'll put on my cloak of charisma and get three more channels of positive energy today".
Secondly, it solves a gameplay issue:
If you are putting on an item like a belt of strength, your strength is probably gonna stay changed for a long time, so do the extra bookkeeping to show the "real" values.
If you are only under bull's strength, that's a heck of a lot of work to do and undo, so let's just give you a +2 to most of the rolls that a strength increase would increase and run with that because it's easier.
But!
The point is, bull's strength isn't changing your strength modifier. If it said "a temporary strength bonus gives you a bonus to your strength modifier", that would be a bonus to your strength modifier. It doesn't say that. It says it gives you a bonus on melee weapon attacks, skill checks for strength-based skills, and so on. So it is giving you a distinct bonus to all of those things, on top of your existing bonus.
And that's for calculation reasons. You already know your jump skill, including the strength modifier. If you change your strength modifier, you have to recalculate that skill, which means re-doing all the additions, subtractions, and so on. But if you just add a +2 to the roll because you've got a +4 strength buff up, that's easy and fast.
Pathfinder Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook Subscriber
seebs wrote: The point is, bull's strength isn't changing your strength modifier. If it said "a temporary strength bonus gives you a bonus to your strength modifier", that would be a bonus to your strength modifier. It doesn't say that. It says it gives you a bonus on melee weapon attacks, skill checks for strength-based skills, and so on. So it is giving you a distinct bonus to all of those things, on top of your existing bonus. Except that's not what the CRB says.
CRB: Bull's Strength wrote: The subject becomes stronger. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, adding the usual benefits to melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, and other uses of the Strength modifier. This text can also be found in the PRD here.
It is quite explicit that the bonuses are calculated, as normal, based on the (increased) Strength modifier. That would include the 1.5x factor for two-handed weapon damage.
And this is for a spell whose duration is measured in minutes.
Zark wrote: From another thread, this:
Umbranus wrote: I have seen more games run into problems or falling apart by using "common sense" than by following strict RAW.
Everyone has a different view on common sense. What one sees as common sense is absurd for the next guy.
Strict RAW causes far, far more problems, like drowning to heal and monks being unproficient with unarmed strikes. I'll take common sense any day of the week.
As for X not making sense to the other guy, presumably you're playing with adults and can compromise if needed. But at my tables arguing with the DM is rare (and it's usually not even me.)
The text of the spell does indeed contradict the language in the section on abilities. For that matter, the same is true of eagle's splendor -- it explicitly states that it covers "other uses of the Charisma modifier", ruling out only spells per day.
But the designers have specifically given "positive energy channels per day" as an example of one of the things they intended the new rules to change.
So basically, the spells appear to have not been updated to match the new rules. I would grant, though, that the spell descriptions clearly contradict the other rules.
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Crash_00 wrote: Quote: Ability Score Increases
Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary benefits. For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability.
If it were written like that, would you be more inclined to understand the reading of the rules that interprets the bonus as being an untyped bonus to skills and certain listed statistics e.g. CMB, CMD etc?
No. That actually would be clearer in my opinion. Really?
Crash_00 wrote: It makes the distinction between the ability increase (ie the affect causing the increase the to the ability score, such as Bull's Strength) and the temporary bonus (the limited bonus to you modifier) clearer. What part of that paragraph says the bonus is applied to your ability modifier? It states that the bonus is applied to the skills and statistics listed.
Crash_00 wrote: As it is now, people read Ability Score Bonuses and think mistakenly, as you do, that it heading is meant to cover the bonus to an ability instead of the bonus (modifier) the ability score gives. So you feel the heading of "Ability Score Bonuses" is not meant to mean "Bonuses to the Ability Score" but rather "Bonuses derived from the Ability Score", yes?
The trouble is Paizo are quite bad for using the terminology, look at the last paragraph of that section...
PF Core rulebook, page 555 wrote: Permanent Bonuses: Ability bonuses with a duration greater than 1 day actually increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours. Here, I believe when they refer to Ability Bonus they mean Ability Score Bonus, and apart from that lack of clarity, the rest of the sentence makes it clear when it means bonus here it is referring to the bonus to the score, not the modifier.
So when they explicitly call the heading of the section "Ability Score Bonuses" I feel they are referring to "Bonuses to the Ability Score" and thus talking about the +4 that Bull's Strength gives.
Similarly the next section is the inverse and has a header of "Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain". By putting "Penalty" in that header on the same level as Damage and Drain I believe Paizo are referring to Penalties to the Ability Score, not penalties derived from Ability Scores.
So yeah, when I read the header "Ability Score Bonuses" as meaning "Bonuses to the Ability Score" I don't believe I am mistaken.
Crash_00 wrote: Here is, again, a quick question for you to answer.
A.) Does Strength = an ability score?
Strength has an ability score is that what you mean? And when people say that their character has a Strength of 16 they are usually referring to the score, so shorthand Strength usually refers to the Strength Score (but then if someone said their PC had a Strength of +3 I would by context know they are referring to the modifier).
But lets say for sake of argument Strength refers to the Strength Score.
Crash_00 wrote: B.) Does Strength bonus = a positive modifier from an ability score? Yes, the Strength bonus is a positive strength modifier
Crash_00 wrote: If both those are yes, then it should be obvious that Strength bonus, by pure definition is an Ability Score Bonus. Strength is an ability and it has a Score and a Modifier (which may be a Bonus or a Penalty or a flat +0).
If we, for shorthand, use "Strength" to mean "Strength Score", then you seem to be arguing that "Strength Bonus" could be expanded to mean "Strength Score Bonus", but I wouldn't say that is correct because when we use the word "Strength" in "Strength Bonus" we are not using it as shorthand to mean "Strength Score" rather it is simply a reference to the ability.
If I were to use "Strength" as shorthand to mean "Strength Bonus", when I then say "Strength Score" I don't mean "Strength Bonus Score" because I don't know what that means.
As I said "Strength" is an ability that has both a Score ("Strength Score") and a Modifier ("Strength Modifier") the latter being derived from the Strength Score.
Crash_00 wrote: Now, let's try the next part.
A.) Does Strength = an ability score?
C.) Does a bonus to strength = a positive modifier from an ability score?
Here is the trap. A.) is true. It is un-debatable.
I seem to be debating that I am afraid. :) But as I said lets say for sake of argument Strength refers to the Strength Score.
In terms of C, if we assume that Strength refers to the Strength score, then I would argue that is not correct, a bonus to Strength means a bonus to the Strength Score.
A positive modifier from an ability is an "ability bonus", not a "bonus to the ability" (that would be recursive thinking).
Crash_00 wrote: Now, you have four options for B and C. Either 1.) they are both true, 2.) they are both false, 3.) B is true and C is false, or 4.) C is true and B is false. Okay I feel, going with the Assumption that Strength refers to the Strength Score, that B is true and C is false, so that would be case 3.
Crash_00 wrote: Case 3 - It is clear in this case (the one I believe to be true) that a strength bonus (an ability score bonus by definition) is multiplied by THF and OHF. How is it clear that this means the strength bonus (i.e. the bonus to the Score as we agreed) is multiplied by THF and OHF???? The Strength Score, or any Bonus to that score (e.g. the +4 from Bull's Strength) is never multiplied for Two Handed Weapon, or halved for Off Hand Weapon.
Its the Strength Bonus (i.e. the positive modifier as we agreed in B) that gets multiplied.
I am really not following your logic at all here I am afraid - apologies if that is me being dense, but you seem to have left out how you got from A and B being true and C being false to multiplying the ability score bonus(which I don't think is actually what you mean anyway).
Crash_00 wrote: It is also clear by the plain logic that any of the ability score modifiers with a positive number are ability score bonuses. Yep, I think that was what you were stating in B. Not sure what you mean by repeating this here.
Crash_00 wrote: Not if you read the actual section in context. The bonus applied to the ability is, in the section, referred to as the ability increase or increase to the ability. It is never referred to as a bonus in this section. The only thing that is referred to as a bonus is what stems from the ability increase. Actually as I stated above, the section on Permanent Bonuses does refer to the increase in ability score being the bonus "Ability bonuses [...]
increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours". But as I stated Paizo should have been clearer on their use of their terms and wrote that as "Ability score bonuses [...] increase the relevant ability score after 24 hours".
Crash_00 wrote: Every two points of increase (the +4 from Bull's Strength is the increase) gives a +1 bonus (positive ability score modifier). That use of the word "bonus" is to me the general use as defined on page 11 i.e. "numerical values that are added to checks and statistical scores".
What do you even mean by "(positive ability score modifier"? I simply don't understand what you meant by putting that parenthesised comment after "give a +1 bonus".
Crash_00 wrote: Again, this is basic english definitions and logic. You speak of plain English, but I really can't see how you read that "bonus" as being applied to anything other than "the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability" - no where in that sentence or the Strength list does it say to apply the +1 bonus to the Ability Modifier.
If we look at the list for Strength it says:
"Temporary increases to your Strength score give you a bonus on Strength-based skill checks, melee attack rolls, and weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength). The bonus also applies to your Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger) and to your Combat Maneuver Defense."
So putting the general and the Strength specific list together, by my use of "plain English" (ironic because it obviously isn't plain) I get that for every +2 increase to the Strength score a PC will gets a +1 bonus to:
1) Strength-based skill checks
2) melee attack rolls
3) weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength)*
4) Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger)
5) Combat Maneuver Defense
Nowhere in that list does it mention adding the bonus to the Strength Modifier, nowhere, literally I cannot find any mention of it, none, nada, zip, zilch.
So if someone casts Bull's Strength on my PC I read the rules as meaning I get the following:
1) +2 untyped bonus to Strength-based skill checks
2) +2 untyped bonus to melee attack rolls
3) +2 untyped bonus to weapon damage rolls (if they rely on Strength)
4) +2 untyped bonus to Combat Maneuver Bonus (if you are Small or larger)
5) +2 untyped bonus to Combat Maneuver Defense
That is it, simply +2 all around, no multiplying or halving, its a simple +2 untyped bonus to those things listed.
*It could be argued that the "(if they rely on Strength)" clause also applies to the preceding "melee attack rolls", but either way that is irrelevant to our discussion.
Please note that I am not saying that my reading of the rules is necessarily logical - it does afterall mean a Strength Score Bonus does not increase carrying capacity nor does it actually help with Strength ability checks (only Strength based Skill checks); but I am struggling to see much support for another reading of the RAW.
Personally, I much prefer the 3.5 way of doing it :)
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Psyren wrote: Zark wrote: From another thread, this:
Umbranus wrote: I have seen more games run into problems or falling apart by using "common sense" than by following strict RAW.
Everyone has a different view on common sense. What one sees as common sense is absurd for the next guy.
Strict RAW causes far, far more problems, like drowning to heal and monks being unproficient with unarmed strikes. I'll take common sense any day of the week.
As for X not making sense to the other guy, presumably you're playing with adults and can compromise if needed. But at my tables arguing with the DM is rare (and it's usually not even me.) The question of temporary stat change and what it affects has come up many times, especially carrying capacity and temporary change to str so an answer would be welcome.
You said yourself that Verisimilitude is not an "on/off" switch. So it is not black or white. Sometimes there are shades of gray, but if I read you right, anyone not agreeing with you on when it is actually black or white they are incapable of logical and straightforward thinking.
I’m not saying I’m right when it comes to reading the rules, I’m merely saying there is confusion that pops up again and again, so clarification would be good.
If you don’t need one, fine, but denying others help and calling them incapable of logical and straightforward thinking isn’t really fair.
Quote: The "temporary bonus" is the bonus to your ability score. Bull's strength gives you a "temporary bonus" to strength. This in turn gives you a +2 bonus to a few specific things, such as melee weapon attack rolls. The term "temporary bonus" does not refer to the bonus to melee weapon attack, it refers to the initial +4 to strength granted by bull's strength. No.
Let's break it down line by line:
Quote: Ability Score Bonuses Header for section. Note, Ability Score Bonuses is different than if it were to say Bonuses to Ability Scores. The difference between a +2 bonus to Strength and a +2 Strength bonus should be obvious
Quote: Some spells and abilities increase your ability scores. Note a lack of the word bonus. In your example, Bull's Strength is the spell/ability that increases the ability score referred to here.
Quote: Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less give only temporary bonuses. This is the important sentence here. We need to really look at this sentence carefully, so I'm going to break it down a bit more thoroughly.
What is referenced as the source of the temporary bonus? Ability Score Increases. It is not the spell that gives the ability score increase, but the increase itself. So, Bull's Strength would not be the subject of the sentence. The +4 enhancement bonus to strength (that Bull's Strength grants) is the subject of the sentence.
So what does this ability score increase do? It only gives a temporary bonuses. The ability score increase (+4 enhancement bonus to strength in this case) cannot be the temporary bonus if it is giving the temporary bonus. If the temporary bonus were to be the ability score increase, the sentence would have to read, "Ability score increases with a duration of 1 day or less are temporary bonuses."
Quote: For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. This is the definition of temporary bonus that we are given. Every two points of ability increase is giving us a +1 bonus (instead of actually changing the ability) for the specific abilities listed.
The point is, bull's strength isn't changing your strength modifier.
Quote: If it said "a temporary strength bonus gives you a bonus to your strength modifier", that would be a bonus to your strength modifier. It doesn't say that. It says it gives you a bonus on melee weapon attacks, skill checks for strength-based skills, and so on. So it is giving you a distinct bonus to all of those things, on top of your existing bonus. The bonus is defined in the section above the Strength section (the sentence telling us +1 bonus per two points of ability increase). It is given in context of ability score bonuses. It is an ability score bonus (as defined on page 16). There is no need to redundantly state that it is an ability score bonus since that is the subject of the text. There is no need to point out that the bonus is the modifier since bonus is defined on page 16 in context of ability scores. There is no need to point out that the bonus is of the ability score being discussed, because that is redundant and the definition of the bonus (again, the +1 bonus per two points of increase sentence) already clarifies that it's an ability bonus.
It doesn't give a bonus to your modifier permanently, just for those specific purposes listed (as the text clearly states).
Quote: And that's for calculation reasons. You already know your jump skill, including the strength modifier. If you change your strength modifier, you have to recalculate that skill, which means re-doing all the additions, subtractions, and so on. But if you just add a +2 to the roll because you've got a +4 strength buff up, that's easy and fast. There is no recalculation needed. The change to the modifier for the Jump skill would be +2. The bonus across the board (to the things listed) is a +2. All you have to remember is +2 to relevant abilities unless something modifies that +2 (like THF and OHF).
Adding a +2 to the Jump check and adding a +2 to your modifier when you jump is absolutely no different in the time it takes to calculate.
JohnF wrote: CRB: Bull's Strength wrote: The subject becomes stronger. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, adding the usual benefits to melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, and other uses of the Strength modifier. This text can also be found in the PRD here.
It is quite explicit that the bonuses are calculated, as normal, based on the (increased) Strength modifier. That would include the 1.5x factor for two-handed weapon damage.
That is actually a very good catch and does act as a contradiction to the general rule of Ability bonuses.
However I think this is a case of Paizo changing how Ability Score Bonuses work, but then forgetting / failing to check and change all the other direct and indirect references. The description of the Bull's Strength spell is directly from the 3.5 SRD where it did make sense because such Ability Score Bonuses did increase the Score and thus the modifier.
EDIT: Doh! What seebs said! :)
Diego Rossi wrote:
It is a modifier.
If you get a bonus to a modifier, they stack.
Two bonus or 2 modifiers don't stack.
Yes, if you get a "+1 bonus to your strength modifier" that would be true. However, it is in relation to this line:
Quote: For every two points of increase to a single ability, apply a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics listed with the relevant ability. Some seems to claim that the +1 bonus to the skills and statistics in this case is an ability bonus. Not a bonus to a modifier (as there is nothing indicating it as such), but rather that because it's under the heading of "ability score bonuses", that "a +1 bonus" in the case of say strength "a +1 strength bonus", which would not stack with other strength bonuses (such as a positive strength modifier from simply having a 12+ strength).
JohnF wrote: CRB: Bull's Strength wrote: The subject becomes stronger. The spell grants a +4 enhancement bonus to Strength, adding the usual benefits to melee attack rolls, melee damage rolls, and other uses of the Strength modifier. This text can also be found in the PRD here.
It is quite explicit that the bonuses are calculated, as normal, based on the (increased) Strength modifier. That would include the 1.5x factor for two-handed weapon damage.
And this is for a spell whose duration is measured in minutes.
Unless "usual benefits" is referring back to the Attribute Bonus section. Not the "usual benefits" as uses of the Strength score but the "usual benefits" of gaining a bonus to an ability score which are outlined in the appropriate section. In which case, there is no contradiction.
Quote: What part of that paragraph says the bonus is applied to your ability modifier? It states that the bonus is applied to the skills and statistics listed. Your logic failed here, so I'm just going to start here. The part of the sentence that says the bonus is applied to the modifier is the "+1 bonus" because bonus is defined as a positive ability score modifier when we are talking in the context of ability scores. we know that this positive modifier doesn't replace the normal modifier, because we are applying a +1 bonus to the skills and statistics, not using a +1 bonus for them.
Quote: So you feel the heading of "Ability Score Bonuses" is not meant to mean "Bonuses to the Ability Score" but rather "Bonuses derived from the Ability Score", yes? No. I believe that it means exactly what it says. Ability Score Bonuses. Which means positive modifiers from ability scores.
Quote: Here, I believe when they refer to Ability Bonus they mean Ability Score Bonus, and apart from that lack of clarity, the rest of the sentence makes it clear when it means bonus here it is referring to the bonus to the score, not the modifier.
So when they explicitly call the heading of the section "Ability Score Bonuses" I feel they are referring to "Bonuses to the Ability Score" and thus talking about the +4 that Bull's Strength gives.
Similarly the next section is the inverse and has a header of "Ability Score Damage, Penalty, and Drain". By putting "Penalty" in that header on the same level as Damage and Drain I believe Paizo are referring to Penalties to the Ability Score, not penalties derived from Ability Scores.
So yeah, when I read the header "Ability Score Bonuses" as meaning "Bonuses to the Ability Score" I don't believe I am mistaken.
First paragraph is where you have gone wrong again. I want to point out just how illogical this is. Your theory is that:
The devs meant something other than what they actually said when what they actually said would let the system work correctly and meaning what you think they said would make the system no work correctly.
That's a pretty weak theory, and your evidence does nothing to support it.
An Ability Bonus is a a bonus to an ability. It has no link to the abilities score. An Ability Score Bonus is the bonus that an Ability Score grants. It is directly tied to the score of the ability.
So when you say you think they meant "ability score bonus" instead of "ability bonus", you would be wrong. Ability Bonus works with the sentence while Ability Score Bonus would not.
As for the Damage, Penalty, and Drain bit, have you actually read that section. Here, I'll go ahead and provide it.
Quote: Diseases, poisons, spells, and other abilities can all deal damage directly to your ability scores. This damage does not actually reduce an ability, but it does apply a penalty to the skills and statistics that are based on that ability. This is no different than the stance I had before. In reference to ability scores, penalty refers to a negative modifier. Damage causes a negative modifier instead of actually reducing the ability.
It's the same concept with the same reasoning for the title.
So why didn't they head the bonuses section the same way? Well, they probably thought that Ability Bonuses and Ability Score Bonuses would read kind of weird. I think they were right.
The rest of your arguments relied on flawed logic to begin with.
Quote: Please note that I am not saying that my reading of the rules is necessarily logical - it does afterall mean a Strength Score Bonus does not increase carrying capacity nor does it actually help with Strength ability checks (only Strength based Skill checks); but I am struggling to see much support for another reading of the RAW. Do specific rules trump general rules?
That answer is yes.
Does the following text appear on pages 15-16 of the CRB?
Quote: Determine Bonuses
Each ability, after changes made because of race, has a modifier ranging from –5 to +5. Table 1–3 shows the modifier for each score. The modifier is the number you apply to the die roll when your character tries to do something related to that ability. You also use the modifier with some numbers that aren’t die rolls. A positive modifier is called a bonus, and a negative modifier is called a penalty. The table also shows bonus spells, which you’ll need to know about if your character is a spellcaster.
Again, this should be a yes if you have a Pathfinder CRB that isn't missing pages 15-16.
Does that section define bonuses and penalties for ability scores?
This isn't debatable. It does. A positive modifier is called a bonus. A negative modifier is called a penalty.
Does page 554 deal specifically with ability scores and the effects of them being increased?
Yes.
Why would the general definition for bonus apply when we are given a specific definition for it when used in the context of ability scores?
You are struggling to see the correct reading because you are ignoring the definition of a bonus when talking about ability scores and instead are applying the general definition of bonus.
Quote: Some seems to claim that the +1 bonus to the skills and statistics in this case is an ability bonus. Not a bonus to a modifier (as there is nothing indicating it as such), but rather that because it's under the heading of "ability score bonuses", that "a +1 bonus" in the case of say strength "a +1 strength bonus", which would not stack with other strength bonuses (such as a positive strength modifier from simply having a 12+ strength). You aren't applying a second strength bonus. You applying a bonus to your strength bonus for those skills.
Jump isn't getting +2 strength bonus (14 strength) and +2 strength bonus (Bull's Strength).
Jump is getting +4 strength bonus (+2 from 14 strength, with +2 added to it from Bull's Strength).
Zark wrote: Psyren wrote: Zark wrote: From another thread, this:
Umbranus wrote: I have seen more games run into problems or falling apart by using "common sense" than by following strict RAW.
Everyone has a different view on common sense. What one sees as common sense is absurd for the next guy.
Strict RAW causes far, far more problems, like drowning to heal and monks being unproficient with unarmed strikes. I'll take common sense any day of the week.
As for X not making sense to the other guy, presumably you're playing with adults and can compromise if needed. But at my tables arguing with the DM is rare (and it's usually not even me.) The question of temporary stat change and what it affects has come up many times, especially carrying capacity and temporary change to str so an answer would be welcome.
You said yourself that Verisimilitude is not an "on/off" switch. So it is not black or white. Sometimes there are shades of gray, but if I read you right, anyone not agreeing with you on when it is actually black or white they are incapable of logical and straightforward thinking.
I’m not saying I’m right when it comes to reading the rules, I’m merely saying there is confusion that pops up again and again, so clarification would be good.
If you don’t need one, fine, but denying others help and calling them incapable of logical and straightforward thinking isn’t really fair.
You are certainly capable of logic. You know what the logical solution is. However, you're choosing to disregard logic for convenience, and that is where our impasse lies.
"Having more strength should make you stronger" is logical. Disregarding it may be easier, but it is not and never will be logical.
Pretty sure "ability score bonuses" is intended to mean "bonuses to ability scores", even if maybe it shouldn't have been worded that way.
And there is no "second strength bonus". There is a second bonus, which is untyped, which is applied to many of the things that usually get a strength modifier, but not to quite all of them, and in some cases, RAW, it's applied to things which are not currently using your strength modifier.
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