I've looked up quite a few entries on Furyborn with Amulet of mighty fists and I still have a few questions left. I would use this enchantment to try to get my enhancement bonus up as quickly as possible to deal with difficult DR bosses and make use of the +3/+4/+5 enhancement weapon bonuses to defeat DR. The example below if for a wild shaped druid in Dire Tiger form.
1) When I do damage against a single opponent, does the enhancement bonus for the whole necklace increase or just each individual natural attack (I have bite, claw, claw, and rake (2 claws)).
Since we pay an increased cost for the necklace, and enchantments usually affect all of the natural attacks, I assume it would do the same here. There was one mention that it would only increase the bonus on the attack that did damage, meaning I would have to keep track of each attack that did damage separately and apply the stacking bonus only to that attack.
So 1st round lets say I only did damage with one claw and a bite. So next round, that claw and my bite would gain a +1 enhancement bonus to hit and damage but the others would not.
This is compared to the same scenario but the bonus is applied to all the attacks. With the one claw and bite doing damage, the next round all of my 5 attacks would be at a +2 (+1 stacking for each attack that damaged the prior round).
As you can see there is a big difference in game time efficiency (trying to keep track of each weapons bonus round to round), but more importantly ramping up of the enhancement bonus to the level required to beat DR. From a couple of rounds to potentially 5+ rounds. The latter of 5 + rounds I think would make furyborn less desireable for me as an addition to an Amulet of Mighty Fists, especially over Holy, or some other choice.
2)Depending on the above rules answer, next is when would the enhancement bonuses come into play? Immediately or at the beginning of my next turn? That also has some efficiency issues (though not as rough as the previous example), since if the bonus happens immediately (in the case of all natural attacks getting the bonus at once)for 5 attacks that round, you would need to potentially roll damage for each attack (especially if it would not autodamage due to damage bonuses beating DR), or at least call the increasing pluses to attack as each successful damage/hit takes place.
I am hoping to get an official ruling on this as it will guide whether to make this choice and also satisfying the questions my VL will likely have about it.
Thanks.
Any help?
Looking at the enhancement I'm honestly not sure.
Weapon Enhancement from Ultimate Equipment
Price +2 bonus
Aura moderate enchantment; CL 7th; Weight —
DESCRIPTION
This special ability can only be placed on melee weapons. A furyborn weapon draws power from the anger and frustration the wielder feels when battling foes that refuse to die. Each time the wielder damages an opponent with the weapon, its enhancement bonus increases by +1 when making attacks against that opponent (to a maximum total enhancement bonus of +5). This extra enhancement bonus goes away if the opponent dies, the wielder uses the weapon to attack a different creature, or 1 hour passes.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, rage; Cost +2 bonus
I'm leaning lightly towards each individual claw. Otherwise a pouncekitty or raptor is looking at a guaranteed +5 for a +2.
I'm leaning lightly towards each individual claw. Otherwise a pouncekitty or raptor is looking at a guaranteed +5 for a +2.
I just don't follow. AMOF is EXPENSIVE and combats don't last very long. If the cat is hitting something 5+ times, it's going to be dead one way or another.
If it is every individual attack, it would seem to be a trap option. So simply use greater magic fang and holy or evil outsider and human bane like every other druid other there. You'll be actually getting your money's worth that way.
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I'm leaning lightly towards each individual claw. Otherwise a pouncekitty or raptor is looking at a guaranteed +5 for a +2.I just don't follow. AMOF is EXPENSIVE and combats don't last very long. If the cat is hitting something 5+ times, it's going to be dead one way or another.
If it is every individual attack, it would seem to be a trap option. So simply use greater magic fang and holy or evil outsider and human bane like every other druid other there. You'll be actually getting your money's worth that way.
I don't understand this response.
Nobody is saying that Amulet of Mighty Fists doesn't affect every natural weapon.
They are saying that the Furyborn enhancement will have to be tracked separately for every natural weapon based on how many times each individual natural weapon actually hits.
The upside of this is that a Furious and/or Courageous AoMF stacks with a +X Body Wrap of Mighty Strikes for the same reason: Courageous and Furious work off the weapon's enhancement bonus, and not specifically the bonus on the AoMF.
Nice for that Idyllkin Enlightened Warrior Drunken Master/Drunk Brute everyone wants to make.
I'm leaning lightly towards each individual claw. Otherwise a pouncekitty or raptor is looking at a guaranteed +5 for a +2.I just don't follow. AMOF is EXPENSIVE and combats don't last very long. If the cat is hitting something 5+ times, it's going to be dead one way or another.
I have a pretty pimped out Velociraptor with a pet druid. If something doesn't have DR.. yeah its red mist by the time he's done with round 1. But a decent amount of DR will have him scratching at it for more than a few rounds.
If it is every individual attack, it would seem to be a trap option.
well, it might be a trap option for something it wasn't intended for in the first place. I mean its supposed to go on a melee weapon.
So simply use greater magic fang and holy or evil outsider and human bane like every other druid other there. You'll be actually getting your money's worth that way.
That opens up a big can of rules worms. Greater magic fang adds +2 or +3 but that bonus doesn't get you cold iron or silver damage reduction. If you add the +2 to holy onto that ...hmmm.. you now have two parts of an enhancement bonus, some of which counts towards silver and some of which doesn't.... *pops advil*
I just went for the strait +3. No muss no fuss.
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Hmmm... well, reading the Amulet it says that *it* grants an enhancement bonus, which reads to me as the Furyborn benefits are on the Amulet itself and so the additional bonus would stack and be added to all attacks, increasing with each strike regardless of source as the bonus on the amulet is increasing. At least I think that's how I would run it.
Alternatively, this amulet can grant melee weapon special abilities, so long as they can be applied to unarmed attacks.
Thanks all for the input so far.
Doesn't seem to be a concensus as yet.
Problem with going straight plus three (other than it being 20k more expensive), is that if you have an adamantine DR to beat or that upper level evil outsider boss with metal DR and alignment based DR to beat simultaneously, you can't hit the +5 needed to do so.
I agree my Dire Tiger/Raptor buffed can damage most things, but I was looking at this to reliably beat the DR of the things that I can't make paste in 1-2 rounds regardless of the creature type.
If I can drop it in a round or two without beating DR no problem, but if I can't, I can start hurting more reliably if I'm patient.
Honestly not sure if the furyborn bonues would stack with greater magic fang (+1 enhancement bonus on all nat attacks). If it did, that would help immensely.
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Furyborn and greater magic fang do not stack, they are both enhancement bonuses.
I would suggest that the amulet imparts its enhancement bonus to all attacks by definition, when the bonus from furyborn increases that increase is imparted to the amulet and then to all attacks. So someone with several natural attacks could "charge" up the amulet in one or two rounds and be at +5 to all of his natural attacks.
Wording wize we know that while the amulet is not a weapon it is magically enchanted like one and therefore you have to consider the semantic problem with weapon enchants written for weapons where in the amulet is not considered. In effect replace the word weapon with amulet in such descriptions makes the most sense since that is how it is being enchanted.
I use an agile furyborn AoMF in PFS and never had a GM have a problem with it. Remember that you have to do damage to the target to boost the bonus so misses don't count, if you don't penetrate the DR it doesn't count and if you don't have a magic attack already you can't do anything to incorporeal targets. Furthermore, if you hit someone else with an AoO or a ready or granted action the bonus resets on your target.
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I use an agile furyborn AoMF in PFS and never had a GM have a problem with it.
I can tell you right now I'd give it a "no" at any of my tables. So be careful when buying. I feel the wording is clear, though I see the other side's point. Moral of the story: this thing is expensive, so be careful and be willing to accept what you GM rules. Heck, bring it up ahead of time so there are no nasty surprises in combat.
1) Sorry, but I say that you have to track every weapon. Yes, that looks needlessly complicated, but the wording "...damages an opponent with the weapon, its enhancement bonus increases..." talks of the weapon that damages, so I see no reason why the others should increase, too.
You get the furyborn enchantment on 5 attacks at the cost of 2 enchantments, and save the money of the +1 normal weapons need first, so I think it's a pretty good deal. So expensive isn't an argument why it should be better than it is.
BTW, the AoMF price has been errataed.
2) The effect sets in after you damage someone, so you hit, roll damage, and on your next attack with the weapon, your bonus is one higher. If you do iterative attacks, e.g. a monk flurrying or you do an AoO with a natural weapon, that may well be in the same round.
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1) Sorry, but I say that you have to track every weapon. Yes, that looks needlessly complicated, but the wording "...damages an opponent with the weapon, its enhancement bonus increases..." talks of the weapon that damages, so I see no reason why the others should increase, too.
You get the furyborn enchantment on 5 attacks at the cost of 2 enchantments, and save the money of the +1 normal weapons need first, so I think it's a pretty good deal. So expensive isn't an argument why it should be better than it is.
BTW, the AoMF price has been errataed.2) The effect sets in after you damage someone, so you hit, roll damage, and on your next attack with the weapon, your bonus is one higher. If you do iterative attacks, e.g. a monk flurrying or you do an AoO with a natural weapon, that may well be in the same round.
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So, an interesting point occurs to me, would you also consider a Monk whose unarmed iterative attacks used foot, elbow, fist and head as his strikes as having used different weapons or all as one? If all those different unarmed attacks count as one, surely that also will apply to natural attacks? At the very least, a creature with say 4 claw attacks and a bite, the claw attack bonus would stack surely since they're all the same weapon, as unarmed strikes would be.I think ultimately for my table, as noted above, I would read it as replacing the word weapon, with amulet, so the property would then read: "...damages an opponent with the amulet, its enhancement bonus increases...". I realise it's still not clear cut enough for anything like claiming RAW, but it certainly seems to strongly imply that the amulets bonus increases and thus the bonus applied to each attack does as well.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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There's a FAQ that seems relevant, which seems to establish a precedent for individual natural attacks being their own things, rather than the whole group being a nebulous blob that can be used repeatedly.
That is, there are two ways to look at the natural weapons of a creature with, say, a claw/claw/bite routine:
1) It has a "natural weapon" which it can use three times, with one damage value usable twice and another usable once; or
2) It has a claw, another claw and a bite; and it can attack with each of those discreet natural weapons once.
It seems to be the general stance of the ruleset that #2 is correct. The amulet of mighty fists, then, imbues each (and every) natural weapon with a given enhancement individually. The amulet is not the weapon, but rather it confers abilities upon each member of a set of weapons.
I would use that as a basis for how to rule on the issue in question, at my tables.
While natural weapons are separated by type, unarmed attacks are not, so the fact that you're using a foot or head-butt is pure flavour and not mechanics at all, since both are simply classed as unarmed strikes.