Owner - Enchanted Grounds, President/Owner - Enchanted Grounds
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When you're spending Daddy's money you don't bother checking the price tag. When you're spending your own money, you tend to take a little more care.
To me, that would be the biggest reason. "I get a +1 circumstance bonus to my diplomacy check for every 10 gp? Pfft. Not my money. Give him a grand and let's call it good." Many social encounters would have to be changed and/or removed.
Edit: For what it's worth I've often handed a group an "expense pouch" for missions with openings such as you describe. I give them a set amount that they can use for greasing the wheels or paying bar tabs and such. Interestingly, the players pay even MORE attention to their totals when I do this.
The way I'm seeing it, the Society itself doesn't actually own very much. Most of the lodges appear to be owned by the VCs themselves. Pretty much everything the Society has is down to the goodwill of its members. I guess that has to filter down to the individual members funding their own activities, too.
The other thing to bear in mind is that you might not have been aware of the adventuring opportunities that brought you gold if it wasn't for the society pointing you in that direction to start with.
You do have a number of benefits as a member (such as access to those lodges and the resources within, plus the items you get through prestige which themselves could be seen as non-monetary compensation) - in return you're expected to do your bit for the society. You're not an employee, or a hireling, you're a member. It's a co-operative of adventurers, so any funds would end up coming from ... other members. So... who is going to pay? :)
Finally, the society itself never typically gives you instructions to pay informers, etc. That's just how you happen to be resolving the situation, but technically (in world terms, not game terms) it's your call to do that.
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The biggest service the lodges provide is making sure that the encounters you get are CR appropriate.
If you think adventuring is dangerous when you're level 3 and meet a basilisk, think of those poor schmucks who pick up a sword for the first time and accidentally wander into a linorms lair.
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We call them 'snacks'
RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Until Season 5, I would have agreed with you. However, prestige has recently changed to help better answer your question.
"What does the society really do for me?"
Now, prestige is based off of the success of a scenario. The more successful, the more prestige. Prestige in turn is exchanged for items, services, followers, property, titles, etc.
"So what do I get out of it?"
Well, you never need to look for work as an adventurer. You can have jobs on the side (during the 'day') if you want, but they aren't required. You also get to explore the vast reaches of the world - mostly on the societies dime. Rarely, the society will require you to pay for some spellcasting services (as you mentioned), but a majority of the time you use their boats, caravans, and tapestries to get from point A to point B, all across this world (and others). In addition, you are rewarded for your services with consumables, equipment, servants, and property.
"But what about extraneous costs?"
Although the scenario might have a gold bribe listed as a method of bypassing an RP encounter, any GM worth their salt will have read the "reward creative solutions" section of the Guide and be willing to work with your party if funds are short. Perhaps the person wouldn't mind a token of your esteem, that fine sword, or a dance from your lovely sorceress. Money shouldn't be the only option, and if it is, why can't you steal it right back afterwards?
Being a member of the Pathfinder Society may not be the best deal, but it's definitely a start for any adventurous spirit. At the very least, gives you something to work with RP wise when you find yourself wondering why your character is working with all these damned tieflings the next time you sit down for a game.
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I remember in one scenario, a Venture Captain asked our characters to retrieve a lost artifact for him. We did some research and found out the artifact he wanted was in a lost city sealed in a magical vault which required specific spells to unlock. I think one was gust of wind, there were several not normally memorized. We also figured out no body had those spell in our spell books. When we asked the venture captain if he would spring for a scroll so we could get his artifact ....I believe he said something to the effect....you are adventurers go adventure.
So he didn't spring for the scroll with the spells we needed voluntarily. Our rogue stole a piece of his stationary (successful sleight of hand). We had his written orders with his seal on it.....
So our rogue forged a few letters of credit for us. It read something like "these are my representatives, and please send me the bill for their purchases" . We got our camels our supplies, our water skins, and our scrolls and we headed off into the desert.
Over the course of the scenario, we did battle some monsters, were almost killed by them, and eventually did get the vault open. WIth the artifact, in our grubby little hands we rode back out to civilization.
Our venture captain, while irritated by what we had done, was a amused by our "moxie" and pleased we successfully retrieved the artifact from him. He did take our camels away and stable them in his lodge. They were after all his.
I hope this helps
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This subject has caused some of my greatest challenges in playing PFS. I understand why the society can be a good deal at the lower levels, but why would my characters stay in it later on? It certainly isn't because the economic math works out!
My personal approach to the problem is to try and create characters around motivations that fit well with the PFS. Whatever PFS is providing them has to be more interesting than just money or levels.
My first attempt at it is a sorceror who has delusions of being LE, but is so paranoid about being found out that he actually is LN. He thinks that a guaranteed adventuring party that can't actually directly stop him from doing things is a great deal, one that can't be found elsewhere. In the long term, he wants to become some kind of powerful figure in hell, and he sees the PFS as a good tool to get to that goal. He figures that at worst if he crosses the line when they are looking he'll get kicked out, but that can be long after 12th level as long as he's careful. In the meantime, should he ever actually think up a cool villainous scheme, heroes are unlikely to come stop him. He is ridiculously fun to play.
My second has been less successful, a cleric who prizes knowledge and exploration and trying to be a helpful member of her following, which is currently PFS. PFS works for her because it hooks her up with groups traveling all over the world to explore with and support with her magic. She hates the way the Decemvirate operates, was one of those good aligned naive shadow lodgers, and almost quit at the end of Rivalry's End. Season 5's focus on actually doing useful things in Mendev has saved her from leaving the society so far.
My third attempt is still too young to be sure how it's working. He's a paladin born into the Scarzni family. He is as loyal to the family as any other member, but obviously doesn't agree with their goals. They sent him to the PFS to get him out of the way, stressing how important to the family and the world it was that he be a part. So far PFS is a place he can do right by Erastil and Scarzni, although sometimes they send him misguided letters showing they still don't understand the true path. Those have stopped recently, which has been great! And his family was right, this PFS thing definitely needs some help with it's own understanding of the true path...
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My thought on the matter has always been that the Society pays for most/all of the basics for the character. Food, drink (within reason), lodging, transportation (horses, etc). On top of that, they let you sell any loot you acquire as a paycheck, allow you to keep a side job if you want one, and will even ocassionally do favors for you if they like you enough.
After all of that, they expect you to do your job. If you want to pay your way past the guards at the door, so be it, but thats on you. They dont care how you get past them, so if you want to do it with coin, that comes out of your pocket.
BNW: lol at the CR appropriate encounters.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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Well, you never need to look for work as an adventurer.I think it's fair to point that you can't look for work as an adventurer. The PFS setup restricts characters from doing any moonlighting, something that would not be true in normal campaign. So I would not count this as a "benefit."
Weird, I have a totally different perspective. Golarion is full of activity, lots of adventurer's having adventures all the time. Right?
So, in that sort of world, wouldn't it be nicer to have some over-arching organizational group reserve important missions, ancient relic locations, etc., and essentially give you the "best" missions out there. I don't think most walkabout adventurers just happen into things like a cache full of refuge tokens that they then use to teleport to a pocket dimension to fight the runelord of Sloth. A few might (like an average homebrew table where your PCs are important to the world), but the vast majority of adventurers aren't that special. There just isn't enough world-shattering stuff going on to make them all important.
I imagine your average adventurer spends his days killing goblins, zombies, and the occasional ogre in defense of some backwater towns. They then probably retire around level 4 or 5, as they've got more gold than they know what to do with and can probably buy said backwater town.
But the Pathfinders have a large network of adventurers and always seem to be, year after year, right on the cusp of anything exciting. Just look at what happens at their Grand Convocations each year! I imagine that the talk around the taverns in Golarion is that regardless of people's opinions on the morals of the society, everyone agrees that they're always doing something exciting.
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You are welcome.
Our GM decided to run this scenario at his home on a lazy Sunday afternoon. So we didn't have the pressure of a timed slot to "get things done".
Our mischief added an element of excitement and fun to the game. As we were tip toeing around town, buying our supplies with our "letters of credit" we half expected to run into our VC doing some shopping of his own. The GM allowed us to role play the haggling over camels and the purchasing of our scrolls from the magic shop. I think the magic shop owner said something like "Oh yes the Honerable Venture Captain is one of our best customers, he comes in almost every day to peruse what I have in my shop" ....
I am glad you enjoyed the story
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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Maybe not in your world.
Whether as an employee or a volunteer, no organization expects its members to spend money out of their own pocket when conducting the entity's business.I've worked for Non-profits, profits, small, and huge corporations. Not once was I expected to pay the cost of something without knowing I'd get fully reimbursed. It's like the CIA/FBI/Armed forces telling its undercover agents they have to purchase those illicit materials from their own paycheck.
Oh, so you've never had to buy a scenario?
To me, the Society provides value to its members through connections and information. Members of the Society trade in some of their autonomy in exchange for some of the best adventuring leads that they could get anywhere.
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Oh, so you've never had to buy a scenario?I'm not obligated to buy a scenario because I'm not obligated to GM. At Cons, are the GMs required to buy the scenarios they are asked to GM? In addition, PFS provides free scenarios that I can play an unlimited number of times. Finally, I'm not risking my life for PFS.
What are these free scenarios of which you speak? Only Intro I is still legal.
As to "being plausible", it is not required of any company to reimburse you for expenses unless it is specifically stated as a reimbursable cost. I can't think of any corporation that would reimburse an employee for a line item of "bribe" on a reimbursement form. ;)
Developer
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My brief take on the matter (before I jump into developing a scenario) is that the Pathfinder Society serves a similar purpose both in the game world and in the real world.
Both offer a community that connects like-minded individuals who might not otherwise meet.
Golarion: Adventurers tend to just fall in with one another, often to varying degrees of success. It seems that many of the times we run across dead adventurers in-game, they were actually adventuring solo. It pays to have some friends. Every so often a group might meet as Pathfinders and decide to perform freelance-style missions. As far as the society's concerned, that's not a big issue; they would just appreciate receiving a report of what you found.
Real World: We create a system that facilitates and encourages players to game with lots of different people. Many excellent home groups have formed as a result of meeting great players at game days and conventions, acting as a recruiting tool for Adventure Paths and other adventures. Thousands of players continue to participate in Pathfinder Society even after they've founded a home game in this way because the setting, adventures, and community are exciting and rewarding.
The Pathfinder Society provides leads on particularly lucrative, interesting, and engaging missions.
Golarion: One perk of working for a knowledge-driven organization is that it often knows where the action is before most others do. Characters often get the first crack at a new site, with the notable exception of when the rascally Aspis Consortium beats them to the punch.
Real World: Paizo publishes 26 or more scenarios per year specifically for use in the campaign, not including Quests, Specials, and exclusive events.
Both provide a list of contacts and representatives that facilitate missions and provide variable amounts of support as resources permit.
Golarion: As others have mentioned, the Pathfinder Society operates a large number of lodges throughout the Inner Sea region, many of which are funded and operated primarily by interested venture-captains. These VCs receive some material support from the Grand Lodge, but I recall that at least Sheila Heidmarch pays for many of her operating costs out of pocket.
Real World: We're approaching 300 venture-officers and campaign staff, all of who help to make conventions, game days, and community building happen. For the vast majority of these folks, the kick-backs are more along the lines of loving what they do and less about receiving some pdfs for free. Paizo sends considerable support packages to conventions (even qualifying game-day-style conventions) and pays for volunteers to run games at high-profile events.
Both provide their members academic support and a respected outlet for publishing their findings.
Golarion: The Pathfinder Chronicles are one of the premier academic publications in the greater region, and being published in a volume is a major milestone in a Pathfinder's career. Venture-captains compile extensive research about more local lore that provides a considerable foundation for researching other projects in the area.
Real World: The organized play system allows players to build and grow characters that they can show off and tell stories about within the shared context of the ongoing campaign. When someone sits down at a table and says that she has a 9th level PFS character, it means something. Pathfinder Society also provides an outlet for new authors to show off their writing skills and serves as a key avenue for testing possible freelancers. In addition, one might think of the forum as another outlet for discussion of one's findings.
So in effect, ask yourself why you play Pathfinder Society. There's a good chance that one or more Pathfinders in Golarion pursue their craft for the same reasons.
Warning, wall of text incoming!
First off, lets try a smaller scale example:
Ten adventurers have decided to form a co-operative unit in order to further their adventuring careers.
One member is decided on (by whatever means) as the leader. This person will often decide who will go where and do what, co-ordinating everyone's efforts.
Two of the group are going to focus on tracking down rumors of old legends in order that there's always somewhere new to explore.
One member is going to maintain a base for everyone to work out of.
The other six members will actively go out and investigate the old ruins, etc, that are turned up by the researchers. They'll also deal with any other field issues that need dealing with for the group.
As there's no obvious source of funding, the group agrees that everyone will be responsible for their own individual expenses.
You have now decided to join this group as number eleven, because you have decided (for whatever reason) that the group's aims are something you wish to further. Chances are, you haven't joined for profit or to access the group's resources as much as you have to contribute your presence to the group because you agree with what they're attempting to do. In this case, perhaps because you feel a group of (now 11) people working like this can do far more as a group than each can individually.
At no point would any member in the above scenario think of passing their costs onto the others, because they know each of the other members also is incurring costs doing their part. As I mentioned earlier, it's all well and good expecting someone else to pay, but who, and why should they? :)
Now, all of that aside, onto canon material (which to be honest isn't anywhere near in-depth enough when it comes to the Pathfinder Society and it's internal mechanisms and machinations.)
The only case I can find documented of the PFS actually paying members for work is those that work as trainers, who apparently receive a small stipend for their time. (Pathfinder Society Primer, p28)
The Pathfinder Society Field Guide states that field operatives have "the ability to draw funds to finance sanctioned missions (and only sanctioned missions)" (p25).
The Pathfinder Society Primer only gives the in-game opportunity to get gold for bribes/tolls (a pouch of 10gp) when working out of the Magnimar Lodge (that lodge's preparation bonus, p17). To me that implies that things such as tolls and bribes aren't a common thing for the society to fund for its members.
Personally, I'd justify it in my own game as being that "expenses" is usually seen as anything that would be a serious problem for an individual member to eat by themselves, such as purchasing an expensive magic item, a piece of property, the services of a mage for a few days, etc, while anyone expecting to claim smaller amounts is considered to be a bit of a nuisance ("Seriously, you've come to me just to make a claim for 20 gold pieces?") and caring a bit too much about their own pocket over the aims of the society (after all, the ideal Field Agent is supposed to care more about helping the Society than other concerns.)
OP: Can I ask what name of the module was? I'd like to grab it and take a look to get my first real indication of the types of mission Pathfinders are sent on, and probably need to buy one soon to run a game with anyway, so it may as well be that one if its a low-level one (and hopefully will help me get a better idea of how to help rationalize why members do what they do.)
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I believe We Be Goblins and Master of the Fallen Fortress also count.Oh, so you've never had to buy a scenario?I'm not obligated to buy a scenario because I'm not obligated to GM. At Cons, are the GMs required to buy the scenarios they are asked to GM? In addition, PFS provides free scenarios that I can play an unlimited number of times. Finally, I'm not risking my life for PFS.What are these free scenarios of which you speak? Only Intro I is still legal.
As to "being plausible", it is not required of any company to reimburse you for expenses unless it is specifically stated as a reimbursable cost. I can't think of any corporation that would reimburse an employee for a line item of "bribe" on a reimbursement form. ;)
True ... you can get pdf copies of those two mods for repeated use.
And while these can be played an unlimited amount of times, WBG needs to be applied to a new PFS PC and the others will get you up to 2nd level. Unless you really just love 1st level games (and playing the same thing over and over and over ...), it's not exactly a major boon for longevity of play for a PC. ;)
Also on the "not risking my life for PFS", one could argue that every day one risks one's life ... taking a shower, driving from point A to point B, etc. So every time you clean up and drive to a PFS game, you have risked your life for PFS!! ;)
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So back in Victorian England, they had what were known as 'Gentleman Clubs'. A man's life revolved around his club, to the point where he would go there for dinner before going home to see his family. As a member, you had access to free lodging, food and connections with other members. They didn't care who you were in your real life, only that you qualified to be a member in good standing.
I view the Pathfinder Society as much like that. They don't care what faction you represent, how much personal wealth you have or your alignment. They'll give you a place to stay, food to eat and such, but in terms of doing missions you are pretty much on your own.
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Maybe not in your world.
Whether as an employee or a volunteer, no organization expects its members to spend money out of their own pocket when conducting the entity's business.I've worked for Non-profits, profits, small, and huge corporations. Not once was I expected to pay the cost of something without knowing I'd get fully reimbursed. It's like the CIA/FBI/Armed forces telling its undercover agents they have to purchase those illicit materials from their own paycheck.
The pathfinders themselves are more or less independent contractors... 90% of the expenses fall on the contractor, unless it is in the contract that the other party will supply it. The only things in the agreement are food within reason and transportation. Therefore that's all you get.
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RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 8
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So back in Victorian England, they had what were known as 'Gentleman Clubs'. A man's life revolved around his club, to the point where he would go there for dinner before going home to see his family. As a member, you had access to free lodging, food and connections with other members. They didn't care who you were in your real life, only that you qualified to be a member in good standing.
I view the Pathfinder Society as much like that. They don't care what faction you represent, how much personal wealth you have or your alignment. They'll give you a place to stay, food to eat and such, but in terms of doing missions you are pretty much on your own.
You could even refer to such clubs as 'leagues.' Perhaps even, leagues of extraordinary gentlemen.
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After all of that, they expect you to do your job.Am I an employee or a voluntary member? Seems there is some confusion on this.
If you want to pay your way past the guards at the door, so be it, but thats on you. They dont care how you get past them, so if you want to do it with coin, that comes out of your pocket.The problem is the author are writing the scenario so that they expect people to bribe guards and in many cases, don't provide any alternative. This isn't real life...it's a authored story. My issue is that I think it's poor form for the scenario to expect Pathfinders to pay out bribes while doing Society business. If the scenario did not call for a bribe or character to pay for services, and a player chose to go that route as a creative solution, then I'd agree with you. But I'm talking about where the scenario sets this out as the normative outcome.
For me it's like the Society telling the Pathfinders to go to an auction and acquire an item legally. The scenario notes read that the Pathfinders will need to bid on the item like everyone else.
Whether as an employee or a volunteer, no organization expects its members to spend money out of their own pocket when conducting the entity's business.
Think of it like you working on commission. They dont pay you outright, you get paid for what you bring in.
I understand what you are meaning, and how that could be frustrating, but I think you are wrong. Can you name me any situations (feel free to include spoilers) in any scenarios where the ONLY option you have as the player is to bribe your way past the encounter AND you have to pay for the bribe out of your pocket?
Every time I can remember seeing a bribe go down its more along the lines of the players not making the necessary skill check or didnt bother to ask if they could do it and just wanted to pay up front. That is no one's fault but their own.
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First off, thanks for taking the time to offer some insight and perspective. My goal here is to encourage a more robust treatment of the Society towards its members and ask authors to reconsider the use of obstacles that expect the characters to simply fork over gold to move ahead.
Between this and your posts in the CLW Wand and some of the WBL threads, you seem to be pretty resistant to the idea of anyone or anything forcing you to spend your gold on anyone or anything other than yourself.
So before a bunch more people try to convince you of why you should--thematically or otherwise--kick in your own gold from time to time, let me ask you this:
Are you actually interested in having a conversation about this or will any answer that involves you spending gold ultimately prove unsatisfactory? The quote above implies the latter.
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If that is what you took away from the WBL and the CLW post you've quoted, then I suggested you reread them. Neither post comes close to your interpretation. As such I see your post here as nothing more than ad hominem. Your question appears to be rhetorical and simply a vehicle for a disparaging (and wholly inaccurate) accusation.
No offense was intended. This is how you framed the question:
So maybe someone(s)can explain why voluntary PFS members are expected to pay off informants without compensation from the Society when doing errands at the Society's behest?
Never understood this dynamic so I'm eager to be disabused of my conceptions.
A lot of people have chimed in (including John, with a long and thoughtful post) and despite your stated eagerness, none seem to have given you a satisfactory reason for why you might be required to spend your own gold in PFS.
In order to save people time and effort, I thought I'd ask if that's what you're actually looking for, or if you just want them to stop making characters spend their own money. The former implies that there could be an answer out there that will convince you, the latter is simply a (not necessarily unreasonable) request to the campaign staff. One is not inherently better than the other, I just want to set expectations appropriately.
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My biggest with the society is that they are misers. The Devs have constrained themselves far too much by using the WBL rules coupled to the prestige system that constrains what kind of gear that PC's can access.
PC's paying out bribes or tolls is not going to set a PC back a great deal of money.
The Society should reward PC's who do unique things. I have a Hospitaler Paladin that has raised 5 PC's in the course of several missions and he has not even got an atta boy form the Venture Captains or the TEN. Some type of boon would be cool not some cheappy one use boon. The boon that he Got for Kurne is a type of boon that should be rewarded more often by the society.
After EL 3 I think Pathfinders should be able to research areas that they are going to investigate for the society. For instance in season 5
if a PC has Kn Planes give them a bonus based on their level for researching demons in one of the societies libraries before going out on a mission. Every 2 or 3 levels give casters an extra spell for their spell book that is taught to them by Zey or one of his assistants. Have the master of blades teach a martial character how to use an exotic weapon or some unique combat feat every x number of levels this could be done w/o over powering characters and it would make the pathfinders feel the society values them.