RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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That party's fine. It's not unusual to get more than one of a class in a party of 6. With all that fightyness, though, I'd recommend that your guy who wants to do a wizard/rogue mix, or the gap filler, look at bard. You get casty and sneaky, but you also will crank all those fightys up to 11 with bard party buffs.
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It is a fine party, especially if the fighters go with different styles of play like one focuses on polearms and reach, or one decides to maximize damage while the other focuses on disarming, tripping,etc.
as long as all the bases are covered my only real advice about the 2 fighters is that they shouldn't try to outdo each other. If it becomes a competition on DPR or something then the one who builds better is gonna make the other regret his build.
BTW, what does Skyrim have to do with this? I don't understand that part of the title....
How could I persuade one otherwise, or maybe even just to be a barbarian?
Tell them fighters suck and wizards are OP?
It is a fine party, especially if the fighters go with different styles of play like one focuses on polearms and reach, or one decides to maximize damage while the other focuses on disarming, tripping,etc.
as long as all the bases are covered my only real advice about the 2 fighters is that they shouldn't try to outdo each other. If it becomes a competition on DPR or something then the one who builds better is gonna make the other regret his build.
BTW, what does Skyrim have to do with this? I don't understand that part of the title....
Actually, given that they are coming from the Skyrim's free-form character development, you should talk to them about what they liked to do in Skyrim. They may not realize that in Pathfinder not every character can do everything.*
This may help you point them towards classes that better fit what they may actually want to do.
Convince one of them to be a battle cleric of Gorum. Its like a fighter but with a lot more flexibility and better end game potential. Sure DPR will start to suffer around level 7 or so, but that is when clerics start doing more important things then DPR.
Skyrim player? There's your hook. 13yr olds like things that are "cool". So make your world cool, and your villains cool, and they'll be immersed in your world. Show them that rpgs have more potential than video games.
I, for one, would make a villain spellcaster who is slick and powerful and wicked. Let the players see how cool a spellcaster (with style) can be.
and it's "rogue" not "rouge"
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it's "rogue" not "rouge"
The rouge rogue dressed in Satan's satin took a trip to the Angel's Angles. Also she sell seashell on the sea shore.
Are you only doing core classes? Inquisitor seems like another good choice if not. It has plenty of skill points (the 2+int skill points of a fighter might be made into a turn off), spontaneous casting, and a rather easy implied personality 'type' to work off of. It would definitely go over better than suggesting a....BAAAARRRDDD.
Are these first time players? If so let them change classes after a few sessions. If they are not new then they must actually want to play fighters. As for you, convern yourself less with what characters the players want and focus on running a good game. How can you make the game fun for the PCs?
There's really no "wrong" classes. Not for making a party at least.
There might be wrong classes for a specific player, some just don't like wizards etc. But as a party, especially with 6 players you can pretty much get by with almost everything.
Roll with the party they're willing to play. The next part is simple:
At one point, put the party up against a God Wizard (100% valid by RAW) and have them repent for their sins of Pride and Wrath.
(I still don't get what a God Wizard is or what constitutes it, but it has a lot of hype apparently.)
Well, considering that you're GMing a party of 6, any preconceived notions of "balance" are already so far out of the window you might not have even realized that they stopped over, ate some porridge, and took a nap in your bed before leaving.
As for some suggestions
Rogue — If your Rogue player is 13, make sure he/she knows that there is a ninja class. About nine out of ten of the people who have played rogues at my table never knew that a ninja class existed and were deeply saddened that they weren't ninjas. It has nothing to do with power (although the ninja IS better at combat), most players simply think that ninjas are cooler than rogues.
Wizard / Cleric — If these players are new, try to steer them more towards Sorcerer or Oracle unless they're dead set on the themes of these classes. New players often do better with spontaneous spellcasting over prepared spellcasting because its less paperwork, has more spells per day, and isn't restrictive on how you use those spells per day.
Fighters — Make sure your fighter players pick different styles for their character. If you don't, they'll risk overshadowing each other. Whether this is something as simple as weapon choice or as large as "different classes aka barbarian," doing so will make everyone happier at your table and work towards giving each character a personal style.
That sounds like a great party to me, let them play with what they want and see how it goes. The best part is that, based on the party makeup and the people involved, you know what style of play they will enjoy. They are a party made for charging into battle and wading through enemies, able to handle physical combat extremely well. Toss a few extra enemies into each combat to let them power through things with their physical prowess and occasionally feature an enemy cleric, wizard, or monster with special abilities that target their weaknesses and showcase that magic is something to be respected. Finally, for first time players especially let them change things around if they aren't having fun. If one of them wants to try out a different class, or realizes that the abilities and feats they have don't work the way they pictured, let them change things around. All in all, have fun and good luck, let us know how it goes!
My dovahkiin was a mage. >:C
I would recommend you take your Skyrim players aside and inform them that, while fighters are great, Rangers, Paladins, and Magi are also great options.
I tend to recommend my new players either play a . . .
. . . Switch Hitting Ranger (Composite Long Bow +(str), + 2-handed anything (greatswords are . . . Great!)
. . . A Super Tank and Spank Paladin (Standard feat to Tower Shield, and then just having 1 weapon for each damage type, gives them amazing defense early on)
. . . A Magus who focuses on bursting down individual targets with Shocking Grasp.
. . . A Fighter that is of the 2-handed archetype simply because they destroy everything at low levels.
So we have the "Can hit from anywhere ranger", the "Paladin of Invincibility", "The Magus of Death and Taxes", and "The Fighter of HULK SMASH!"
My group is going through Second Darkness, and although I am playing a werewolf warrior 1 for the first level my group hasn't suffered any deaths so far. This point of this is that we do not have a healer, we just somehow out-burst the enemy.
Darksol the Painbringererererererererererer:
GOD wizards are essentially Buffers who can summon monsters but also who change the battlefield. The "Wall of *" spells are the important spells on their list. Like all Wizards, at level 1 they are a joke due to lack of options and power.
You don't need to balance the party, you need to balance what you throw at the party. If they have too many fighters, throw more ghouls for them to smash and less swarms. If they have too many caster, throw more big and dumb bulls to charge them and less deadly assassins. If too many specialist, throw more spell caster at them and less barbarian. It's GM's job to balance the game, not the party. They are what they are, don't need to change because they can't change what they were born to be.
If you have a bunch of new players who have never played an RPG, you might want to start off with some pre-generated characters that you have made, and tell players that they can customize them after a few sessions. That way you can slip in a bit of variety even though you have players who want to basically play the same class. Once they get an idea of how things work then let them loose a bit. Use pictures if you can find them, or base the character on a miniature. If you do that it's not too hard to make other classes look badass.
FYI: An elven wizard with one level in rogue can handle most of your disable device and trapfinding needs since he has the skill ranks as a high-INT character to do this. Give him a longbow as his arcane bond, and the magical knack trait. Elves have access to the blend spell which works well for this type of character. His knowledge skills may suffer though - he won't be the stereotypical "smart" wizard. With such a character in your party you can skip having a rogue.
Peet
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it's "rogue" not "rouge"The rouge rogue dressed in Satan's satin took a trip to the Angel's Angles. Also she sell seashell on the sea shore.
Are you only doing core classes? Inquisitor seems like another good choice if not. It has plenty of skill points (the 2+int skill points of a fighter might be made into a turn off), spontaneous casting, and a rather easy implied personality 'type' to work off of. It would definitely go over better than suggesting a....BAAAARRRDDD.
I run counter to Siuol, your party is a bunch of brave compadres who are going out kill stuff in dangerous places. They are not commoners.
Your absolute best bet is to NOT hold punches, but have them be working for someone very powerful who sends a secret agent who revives the party should they fall. Do not tell them this, and reduce their constitution accordingly so they understand clearly that it is a very bad thing to die. This protects from bad-rolls, and ensures that the players will at least be able to proceed through scenarios and modules even if it kills them multiple times.
I like Nirvana, I like Vulpinals, Leonals, and Silvanshee so naturally the guy my players were working for was heavily aligned to Nirvana and lived in Absalom. They were given their quest, then had to travel from Absolom to the Crypt of Everflame. It took them something like 3 months (game time), and all along the way they were followed by a secret lone level 20s Vulpinal who was there to help build heroes. Each time they were in Apotheosis they learned something about the character, and while they did become statistically weaker (-2 constitution) they started working as a group until they met Big-Bad as a fully fledged group that knew it needed each other.
Whatever flavor be it a slotless intelligent item that teleports them after they all die to their previous camp, casts raise dead, and then puts its self back in their backpack, or a powerful creature that is following them there comes a point where they no longer need such training wheels and the artifact or creature leaves them to help build new adventurers.
So, what is the overall point of this, when the players inevitably die have that little bronze compass the important guy gave them bring them all back. They suffer the penalties for being revived, but are still alive. If they do not have a healer make it so the item can be "used" to cast heal as a level 1 adept or something or give them "NO DROP, NO VALUE, DUNGEON ONLY" healing potions to keep them going.
So, back to your original question: How to make them all not play fighters. Inform them that fighters, while an excellent class, are not all powerful. The Magus, Alchemist, Inquisitor, Witch, and so many others are fine choices as well. With puppies it is up to you to sell them. I knew I loved playing casters since forever.
One of the most important things when you're learning to play a game is to play a character YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE FUN WITH.
If the players feel they are going to have the most fun playing a fighter, then let them both play a fighter. When you're learning a new game, little feels worse than really having your heart set on a character concept and then being told "You can't do this, it's not balanced, optimized, etc." They are unlikely to jump into whatever class you tell them they "should" play with the same level of enthusiasm. And right now the most important thing is to build enthusiasm, so they want to keep playing.
Also, remember that one of the things about playing a fighter that is attractive to a new player is that they are relatively speaking simple to pick up. And that may be a big part of the draw, and thus encouraging them to play something that looks ultimately more complex may make them feel intimidated. It may be challenging to pick a good set of feats/specializations for fighters, but learning what their class abilities are and how they advance is easy. Even a class like the barbarian can feel like a pain to a new player because they may feel overwhelmed by the choices of what rage powers to pick or having to track rage rounds and effectively two sets of stats, etc. (And the people suggesting magus I cannot even comprehend, I feel like that class is too complicated for ME to play, and I've been playing D&D and its ilk for decades, let alone for a 13 year old newbie.)
That said, if one of them is on the fence about a concept and might think of playing another class, certainly encourage them, but otherwise, I honestly wouldn't worry about it.
I've run a lot of game demos and I am certain one of the biggest mistakes people teaching the game make is trying to steer newbs into playing a class or character they're not interested in playing. People have different skills, interests, and learning styles, and you have to trust their sense of what is going to work best for them when they're learning.
The one thing you do need to do is make sure everybody sits down and talks to each other about the role they are going to play in the party. Since you potentially have a lot of combat and possibly melee focused character, it's important to be sure people are aware of what they're going to do and make sure they make different choices. Let them work it out for each other.
For example (and this is just one), the paladin could be sword and board, one fighter could be two-handed weapon damage dealer, the ranger could be an archer, and the other fighter could be a combat maneuver specialist, hindering foes that the paladin and fighter then take down. The rogue/wizard could also support from range.
A few might be encouraged to be switch hitters, and carry both melee and ranged weapons.
They should also talk about what skills each person is going to do. If the ranger covers survival skills, the paladin covers diplomacy and religious stuff, rogue/wizard covers some knowledges and spellcraft, maybe then one fighter could do crafting and knowledge engineering, and the other could focus on intimidate or whatever. Then you can be sure everyone feels like he or she has his or her role to play.
This is doable, and for a large party there is going to be some overlap.
Heck, I've got a GM who likes to run all-one-class-parties just to see how they do. It is easy to take one class and make them feel very different from each other if you just work together and try. If you're adding the complexity of archetypes (not sure if you are, might add options but also adds more for newbs to learn), all the more so.
Also of course if they play awhile they may come to the conclusion themselves the class isn't working out they way they hoped and have enough experience now to feel confident about trying something more complex, and then if they ask to switch over of their own accord, let them (setting boundaries so everyone isn't switching their character every session of course).
So basically 2 members of our 6 party group want to play fighters ,1 a wizard or rouge or a mix ,1 a ranger ,1 paladin and someone who will fill any gaps in the party. Now is this a balanced party? I was thinking that we might have too many combat classes. Also having 2 fighters might de-emphasize there role in the party. How could I persuade one otherwise, or maybe even just to be a barbarian?
2 fighters
1 wizard or rogue or mix1 ranger
1 paladin
1 ?
Looks pretty well rounded. Lots of combat (2 fighters, 1 ranger, 1 paladin), some arcane (wizard), some healing (paladin, ranger with wands, possibly rogue with Use Magic Device), and a good number of skills (wizard or rogue, ranger). The last player can probably play just about anything they want.
Some things to watch out for, especially if everyone is new to the game: Mixing wizard and rogue well can be complex, so make sure that the player has a good grasp of the system and can plan out the character's advancement; as others have mentioned, bards (especially archetypes such as archaeologist, archivist, and sandman) can fill in fairly well for both the arcane caster (more buffer/battlefield controller than damage dealer, but with all the combat types, damage shouldn't be a problem) and rogue (bards get a 6 + Int mod skill ranks and the archetypes mentioned can disarm magical traps with Disable Device), as well as adding some additional healing. Try to ensure that the two fighters, the ranger, and the paladin concentrate on different combat techniques (one can be an archer, one focusing on reach weapons and/or combat maneuvers, one as a weapon/shield two-weapon fighting tank, one as a two-handed weapon big hitter, etc.), so that they are distinct from each other narratively and less likely to "hog the spotlight" from another player.
With all the combat power, I'd recommend building encounters with multiple foes instead of one big bad. When the party can concentrate on one opponent, they usually can win pretty quickly; with four full BAB characters, this will be even more likely. Making the party spread their efforts over multiple targets is usually a good way to make encounters more difficult/dramatic without substantially increasing the risk of wiping out the party.
I see a lot of suggestions to make the fighters have different styles. If the players are close friends and the characters are too, why not have them be very similar and take advantage of all those Teamwork Feats that require at least two people to unlock some really neat group tactics effects. I play a 6'2" Human two-weapon fighter(not the archetype, bleh) that frequently teams mobs with my wife's 2'3" Halfling (I know really small, DM allowed it due to character back story). I take a hit or two sometimes so that she is in position to knock them down. If she doesn't, the Teamwork feat: Precise Strike gives me an additional 1d6 (plus a slew of other goodies from various magic items that can allow me several more hits than my 'normal' full attack at my level) and she most definitely mops it up with Precise Strike adding to her sneak attack.
To be fair, we are in a campaign with several brand new, very unimaginative players. The wizard is stuck on using his wand of Magic Missile at 11th level because "Its the only thing that always hits with out frying you guys!" The ranger forgets he has a wolf sitting at his heels, despite my pack of war dogs, one of whom doubles as the halfling's vicious mount, and seems to forget he can shoot things from far off, even in melee, thanks to those feats he asked for advice about. The cleric sadly forgets all about trying to heal or cast virtually any spell (until recently when the first action has become 'bless' followed by Spiritual Weapon). We actually have a second fighter whose style is very different from my own (big honking two-handed sword you got there), but has started getting with the program with Gang Up Feat. He enjoys the bonus and the big bads go down fast under melee assaults. Improved initiative on our part helps too: The bad guy generally takes a dirt nap by the third round, if he lasts through the first.
I'm wondering if anybody out there has gone through the effort of really building up combat teams (melee, caster, or mixed) just to see what kind of gank squad can really be pulled together. Stealth Synergy alone makes for one heck of a secret police squad when the point man is a stealthy rogue and every member has taken the feat that basically allows him to do the check for everyone in the group that can be seen.
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This comic is relevant.