Psychic Magic both in AP, setting, and corebook.


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The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

It's not a retcon at all.

There are some monsters in the Inner Sea region who use what is essentially psychic magic in the form of spell-like abilities, like intellect devourers, seugathi, and neothelids.

Psychic magic using character classes will remain rare in the Inner Sea region even after we detail the rules—they'll primarially be classes who operate in Casmaron (mostly in Vudra), simliar to how samurai and ninja are rare in the Inner Sea region but much more common in Tian Xai, while clerics and paladins are common in the Inner Sea region but pretty rare in Tian Xia.

Yes. I think James and the Paizo co have hit the nail on the head. Rather than the weird Psi-punk funkiness of 3.X era books dealing with mentalism and those associated powers as variant magical systems taught by Vadra mystics sounds awesome.

We are getting the Advanced Class Guide which focuses more on hybrid and unique variants, but I could see a 2015 book that covers Alternative/lost traditions with a matching AP set in Casmaron/Vudra reason where the PC's run across Yogi style masters of mind and body blending psi and monk talents and generally expanding the players mind.

Frankly, it reminds me more of the 2E art style of psionics as more a yogi/monk meditative priest and mastery over the weird crystal stuff of 3.X (not that style is bad, just I dunno. Off putting to a lot of people in a Fantasy setting.)

So, whatever form Psyhic Magic takes, it sounds like the dev team finally figured out how they are going to tackle the issue.

I wish them luck in pulling it off!

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Let me give you a few ideas of cool variants that could show up.

A Warrior who enters a translike state opening his chakras allowing him to push his body beyond it's limits. Works like a Barbarian Archtype, but has access to unique "rage" like bonuses as well as a few classic Barbarian ones. Maybe he gets less of this 'rage' in return for a few spell like mental powers.

A monk who doesn't use Ki but Grit to allow him to push his luck by tweeking the odds in his favor mentally.

A non-divine healer who specializes in biofeedback and works a lot like a bard meets oracle who can enhance with meditations and heal with his focues.

A archtype on the upcoming Swashbuckler that replaces the need for the problematic Dervish feats. Or maybe a Bard/Barbarian that focuses on unique dance combat styles to enhance themseles.

A mystic who is much like a summoner but is limited to the nightmares in his his own mind. Phantoms and shades of the mind, eventually unlocking true ability to alter the world via telekinesis and pyrokinesis.

Etc. They could use existing systems and retool them to build the Psyshic clases with out making everythin like the 3.X psi point system.


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Where was that post from?

I've said it before, and would say it again, I think monk / sorcerer would work well as a psychic mage, if there'll be more of these blended classes.

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The post was in the product talk...oh here let me get the link.

There.

http://paizo.com/products/btpy90q7/discuss?Pathfinder-Campaign-Setting-Myth ic-Realms#40

He also talks about HOW they'll do psyhic magic. They are not going the way of the point system.

James Jacobs earlier in same thread wrote:
I've looked at Dreamscarred's books, yeah. They're the logical starting place for what we want to do with psychic magic, but they won't work as-is, since we're not going to do a point-based system for this type of magic. Which is why we're calling it psychic magic and not psionics–it's based on the same concept (magic/supernatural powers from the mind) but it's not the same rules. The actual rules will likely work just like magic... but will be a new category that exists alongside the categories of "arcane" and "divine" magic.

A Monk/Sorcerer build would indeed make the classic Psion. But I'm also thinking about more classes and how they can build them. I'm down for all sorts of class blending to make the desired thematics they need.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Note: We haven't actually started doing anything significant in-house with psychic magic. In fact... the term "psychic magic" isn't even yet something we'll 100% be using. I've certainly got my own ideas on how to handle the subject... and those ideas will certainly influence what we do with the subject... if indeed we ever DO something with it (I hope we do!).

But right now, they're just musings. Not much more.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

Note: We haven't actually started doing anything significant in-house with psychic magic. In fact... the term "psychic magic" isn't even yet something we'll 100% be using. I've certainly got my own ideas on how to handle the subject... and those ideas will certainly influence what we do with the subject... if indeed we ever DO something with it (I hope we do!).

But right now, they're just musings. Not much more.

Sounds like it. But I remember when a few years ago you didn't even have musings. It seems you finally had the idea gel in your head which is at least step 1 to getting around to it.

I'd LOVE to mess around with Kundalini inspired mystics using mind over body and world powers. Just saying.

And a Vudra based AP perhaps inspired by Indian mystism and myths would be AWESOME.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

TheLoneCleric wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Note: We haven't actually started doing anything significant in-house with psychic magic. In fact... the term "psychic magic" isn't even yet something we'll 100% be using. I've certainly got my own ideas on how to handle the subject... and those ideas will certainly influence what we do with the subject... if indeed we ever DO something with it (I hope we do!).

But right now, they're just musings. Not much more.

Sounds like it. But I remember when a few years ago you didn't even have musings. It seems you finally had the idea gel in your head which is at least step 1 to getting around to it.

I'd LOVE to mess around with Kundalini inspired mystics using mind over body and world powers. Just saying.

And a Vudra based AP perhaps inspired by Indian mystism and myths would be AWESOME.

Oh... I had musings a few years ago. Again... that's why I put things like Intellect Devourers and Neothelids into "Into the Darklands," because I want there to be a psychic magic or similar element in the world of Golarion.

I just wasn't as public about discussing said musings... because at the time, we were still using 3.5, and that system already had a system for the stuff with Psionics.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:

Oh... I had musings a few years ago. Again... that's why I put things like Intellect Devourers and Neothelids into "Into the Darklands," because I want there to be a psychic magic or similar element in the world of Golarion.

I just wasn't as public about discussing said musings... because at the time, we were still using 3.5, and that system already had a system for the stuff with Psionics.

I'm happy to hear that.

Hell James, Paizo is giving me Numeria. You all already did me a solid.

Personally I like my Psi like old Rolemaster Mentalism. It's own thing but still a type of magic under the internal logic of the setting. And man, think of the gods you could use as patrons of Mentalists. The crazy Vudran pantheon!


James Jacobs wrote:

Note: We haven't actually started doing anything significant in-house with psychic magic. In fact... the term "psychic magic" isn't even yet something we'll 100% be using. I've certainly got my own ideas on how to handle the subject... and those ideas will certainly influence what we do with the subject... if indeed we ever DO something with it (I hope we do!).

But right now, they're just musings. Not much more.

Mentalists?

Whatever you do, don't make psychic powers working as Vancian magic - it will miss the whole point of having psychic powers in the first place.

Now, if we could only have psychic powers be separate from magic... *sigh* One can dream.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Drejk wrote:

Mentalists?

Whatever you do, don't make psychic powers working as Vancian magic - it will miss the whole point of having psychic powers in the first place.

Now, if we could only have psychic powers be separate from magic... *sigh* One can dream.

Psionics is magic however you slice the pie. It's magic, breaking the rules of the setting reality. But unlike Arcane which comes from ritual and forumla and divine power that is granted from the gods, menalists/psionics channel the power of the cosmos through their minds.

Also it avoids anti-magic from being usless in the face of someone invading your mind.


TheLoneCleric wrote:
Drejk wrote:

Mentalists?

Whatever you do, don't make psychic powers working as Vancian magic - it will miss the whole point of having psychic powers in the first place.

Now, if we could only have psychic powers be separate from magic... *sigh* One can dream.

Psionics is magic however you slice the pie. It's magic, breaking the rules of the setting reality. But unlike Arcane which comes from ritual and forumla and divine power that is granted from the gods, menalists/psionics channel the power of the cosmos through their minds.

This is subjective and setting specific. There is lots of settings where psychic powers are separate force independent of magic (if magic exists at all) - for example Dark Sun and AD&D in general, also default assumption of GURPS Psionics.

Also, psychic powers do not need inherently be reality breaking - often it is ability to manipulate physical forces in ways unknown to 21st century science but not breaking them (Babylon 5 for example).

The Exchange

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Ya, but remember, we are talking about Golarion. No Dark Sun or B5. Each one's take on Psionics would be different. I'll wait and see.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Drejk wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Note: We haven't actually started doing anything significant in-house with psychic magic. In fact... the term "psychic magic" isn't even yet something we'll 100% be using. I've certainly got my own ideas on how to handle the subject... and those ideas will certainly influence what we do with the subject... if indeed we ever DO something with it (I hope we do!).

But right now, they're just musings. Not much more.

Mentalists?

Whatever you do, don't make psychic powers working as Vancian magic - it will miss the whole point of having psychic powers in the first place.

Now, if we could only have psychic powers be separate from magic... *sigh* One can dream.

I fundamentally disagree.

Having psychic magic work the same way as our current magic system is a significant draw for me. After all, divine magic and arcane magic both follow the same rules. Having psychic magic do the same means you don't have to learn a new system; you could make a psychic character immediately and know how to play him/her.

The point of psychic magic isn't to introduce a new system of rules into the game. The point is to enable a new flavor of magic and mysticism and story elements to exist in the game.

In world, being telepathically contacted by someone using a psychic magic spell and an arcane spell or simply from a telepathic monster should feel the same, after all. So why should the rules feel different?

In fact, that's the primary reason I'm calling it psychc magic and not psionics. Dreamscarred has already done a Pathfinder version of psionics from the 3.5 SRD. I don't want to "overwrite" that by publishing a conflicting or different version of mind-based supernatural powers, and by calling our version "psychic magic" we don't. Psionics and psychic magic can, in theory, exist side by side in a setting. Or you can pick the one you want to use in your game.

My interest in developing and incorporating this type of supernatural element into Pathfinder is arguably the highest at Paizo... but my interest in it drops to pretty much zero if I'm told I have to use the 3.5 psionics rules for it.

And yes... I understand that means that fans of the current psionics rules from 3.5 and Dreamscarred would be disappointed... and that's probably the MAIN REASON we haven't gone forward with this yet. It's a shining example of fan expectations and interests stalling production on something, alas.

I'm a fan of the story-based elements that flavor D&D's psionics, but not of the rules. There are countless ways to simulate psionics/psychic magic/ESP/whatever using rules, but since we already have a system in place to handle things like mind control and telekinesis and astral projection and the like... it makes no sense to me to ignore that.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Drejk wrote:
TheLoneCleric wrote:
Drejk wrote:

Mentalists?

Whatever you do, don't make psychic powers working as Vancian magic - it will miss the whole point of having psychic powers in the first place.

Now, if we could only have psychic powers be separate from magic... *sigh* One can dream.

Psionics is magic however you slice the pie. It's magic, breaking the rules of the setting reality. But unlike Arcane which comes from ritual and forumla and divine power that is granted from the gods, menalists/psionics channel the power of the cosmos through their minds.

This is subjective and setting specific. There is lots of settings where psychic powers are separate force independent of magic (if magic exists at all) - for example Dark Sun and AD&D in general, also default assumption of GURPS Psionics.

This wouldn't have anything to do with a desire for psychic powers to completely bypass defenses against magic, would it?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

LazarX wrote:

This wouldn't have anything to do with a desire for psychic powers to completely bypass defenses against magic, would it?

I know this isn't directed at me...

... but the concept of psychic magic or whatever being "different than magic" and thus bypassing magic defenses and the like is one of the TOP reasons why I want our version of the stuff to be psychic magic and thus work on the same fundamental assumptions that come with it.

A psychic version of telekinesis should work exactly the same as the 5th level arcane spell, in other words.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
LazarX wrote:

This wouldn't have anything to do with a desire for psychic powers to completely bypass defenses against magic, would it?

I know this isn't directed at me...

... but the concept of psychic magic or whatever being "different than magic" and thus bypassing magic defenses and the like is one of the TOP reasons why I want our version of the stuff to be psychic magic and thus work on the same fundamental assumptions that come with it.

A psychic version of telekinesis should work exactly the same as the 5th level arcane spell, in other words.

That was the number one optional question for every GM who ran the old style 3.x psionics, whether or not to make psi and magic "transparent" to each other, which I'm sure you're aware of. You seem to be making quite clear your preference on the matter.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

LazarX wrote:
That was the number one optional question for every GM who ran the old style 3.x psionics, whether or not to make psi and magic "transparent" to each other, which I'm sure you're aware of. You seem to be making quite clear your preference on the matter.

Correct.

And in Pathfinder, it won't be an option. No more than any other rule, that is. Since ALL the rules are technically options...

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

I was talking to Erik Mona about this just recently and he had mentioned that he really liked some of the psychic, new age type flavors but was adverse to doing anything that used or looked like the word "psionic".
When you're talking about doing "psychic magic" are you thinking something more like specialty schools, like the elementalist wizards, or a completely new set of classes and a complete third "power source"?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Ssalarn wrote:

I was talking to Erik Mona about this just recently and he had mentioned that he really liked some of the psychic, new age type flavors but was adverse to doing anything that used or looked like the word "psionic".

When you're talking about doing "psychic magic" are you thinking something more like specialty schools, like the elementalist wizards, or a completely new set of classes and a complete third "power source"?

It's a third power source. We'd have arcane magic, divine magic, and psychic magic. In a perfect world, that'd be Intelligence-based, Wisdom-based, and Charisma-based magic respectively... but that ship has sailed. Yet that can still help inform the basic fundamentals of how each of the three magics are different.

My personal go-to source for inspiration for psychic magic is very much in sync with Erik—looking to real-world traditions of mesmerisim, spiritualisim, and so on.

But beyond that, and perhaps an even greater source of inspiration, are the various ways you see psychic magic show up and work in horror. Stephen King, in particular, has used this type of stuff in a LOT of his books—

Carrie features a telekinetic
Firestarter features a pyrokineticist and a mind controller
The Shining features a telepath/aura reader
And of course, the Dark Tower has a LOT of this stuff, with the fundamental plot being about psychic magic

And so on. You see psychic magic stuff show up in a lot of his work, like Duma Key, Hearts in Atlantis, Dreamcatcher, It, Pet Semetery, Tommyknockers, The Dark Half, Insomnia, and so on... psychic magic is one of the primary themes of King's work.

But there's more. The Necroscope books by Brian Lumley have some really interesting takes on it, such as the ability to communicate with the dead and use their skills as your own. George Martin has some of this kind of stuff going on with his three-eyed crow in Game of Thrones. And, of course, there's Lovecraft, with plot elements like you see in "The Thing on the Doorstep" or "The Shadow Out of Time" where you have mind transference effects in play.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

I like Charisma as the relevant ability. It speaks to the "force of will" that Charisma is also supposed to represent alongside of the ability to persuade, etc..


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I like JJ's take on it... Psychic Monsters or NPCs should have spells or SLAs enumerated like normal casters, with minimal auxiliary rules that don't create too much of a learning curve for somebody to use them straight out of a stat-block. If Paizo is going to do this, they are going to integrate it into the setting, and that means it must be usable by groups who AREN'T running any Psychic PCs or otherwise using those rules themselves.

Re: stat correlation, I'm sure there could be a variety of different stats used for different Psychic Magic classes/monsters (and some could use dual stats, like Clerics do with WIS/CHA for spells/channel), depending on the focus of each (full, 3/4, and 1/2 caster Psychic Magic users would be pretty plausible). CHA and WIS would be my go-to choices in general, although CON might be interesting, especially for a 3/4 or 1/2 caster.

I would hope that at least some of the Psychic Magic classes have tie-ins with the Ki sub-system, perhaps to different degrees depending on the class. With Monks vs. Ninjas we also see varying stats correlated with Ki. But it seems like a good idea if there is some synergy with Monk/Ninja+Psychic Magic User multiclasses, and/or some PrC which integrates them well. I could also see Monk Feats and/or Ninja/Rogue Tricks based off Ki that enable Psychic Magic abilities for those classes without any other multiclassing.

But I agree this needs to be done with solid integration into setting. Parallel development has problems of it's own, but having an integrated plan including new classes, setting, monsters, even if one will be completed before the others seems like a good idea (that also builds the anticipation/demand for each subsequent release that reveals more about psychic magic in the golarion setting). Paizo's 'setting neutral' crunch material usually ends up having a LITTLE bit of setting-specific hints or assumptions, and that much at least can be written to be congrous with Psychic Magic's presence in Golarion, even if it isn't as fully fleshed out as real setting material.

Question: I know Psychic Magic is supposedly associated with Vudra, and I would guess that Half-Elves will be rather good at it, perhaps thru Favored Class bonuses. Is there any other regions of Golarion associated with it? Is it also present in Casmaron, as a 'native' tradition or just as imported/diffused from Vudra?

A few monster types have been associated with it, even though their current stat blocks don't directly specify that since it doesn't exist in the rules yet. Would we expect those monsters to see 'alternate' versions more integrated into Psychic Magic rules when/if that is released? Perhaps something like "casts spells as if N level Psychic Magic User" to better stack with class levels in those classes?


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James Jacobs wrote:
LazarX wrote:

This wouldn't have anything to do with a desire for psychic powers to completely bypass defenses against magic, would it?

... but the concept of psychic magic or whatever being "different than magic" and thus bypassing magic defenses and the like is one of the TOP reasons why I want our version of the stuff to be psychic magic and thus work on the same fundamental assumptions that come with it.

In defense of point-based psionics, at least Dreamscared's, SR still works against powers by default, and magic and powers are supposed to interact in kind (see invisibility let's you see a psion with an obscuring membrane and such). You can still have psionic as it's own system and enable it to interact with existing systems. It's different in how it functions and it's fluff, but not how it interacts with existing systems.

Now that said I really want to see your take on 'psychic magic' as I already use the two in my games (psionics and magic that imitates psionics). I know that this material isn't near the focus of your attention but I would like to let you know I really can't wait to see your take on the concept. Til next time.


James Jacobs wrote:
Drejk wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Note: We haven't actually started doing anything significant in-house with psychic magic. In fact... the term "psychic magic" isn't even yet something we'll 100% be using. I've certainly got my own ideas on how to handle the subject... and those ideas will certainly influence what we do with the subject... if indeed we ever DO something with it (I hope we do!).

But right now, they're just musings. Not much more.

Mentalists?

Whatever you do, don't make psychic powers working as Vancian magic - it will miss the whole point of having psychic powers in the first place.

Now, if we could only have psychic powers be separate from magic... *sigh* One can dream.

I fundamentally disagree.

Having psychic magic work the same way as our current magic system is a significant draw for me. After all, divine magic and arcane magic both follow the same rules. Having psychic magic do the same means you don't have to learn a new system; you could make a psychic character immediately and know how to play him/her.

The point of psychic magic isn't to introduce a new system of rules into the game. The point is to enable a new flavor of magic and mysticism and story elements to exist in the game.

In world, being telepathically contacted by someone using a psychic magic spell and an arcane spell or simply from a telepathic monster should feel the same, after all. So why should the rules feel different?

In fact, that's the primary reason I'm calling it psychc magic and not psionics. Dreamscarred has already done a Pathfinder version of psionics from the 3.5 SRD. I don't want to "overwrite" that by publishing a conflicting or different version of mind-based supernatural powers, and by calling our version "psychic magic" we don't. Psionics and psychic magic can, in theory, exist side by side in a setting. Or you can pick the one you want to use in your game.

My interest in developing and incorporating this type of supernatural element into Pathfinder is...

I like the sound of this.


James Jacobs wrote:
I fundamentally disagree.

Yes.

Quote:
Having psychic magic work the same way as our current magic system is a significant draw for me. After all, divine magic and arcane magic both follow the same rules. Having psychic magic do the same means you don't have to learn a new system; you could make a psychic character immediately and know how to play him/her.

On one hand I agree that unification, streamlining and simplification of rules is an advantage for the game.

On the other hand, I find the distinction between divine and arcane magic artificial and unnecessary. I am too much of the old school (Conan, Kane, some other works), where distinctions between priest and magician is vague and usually boils down to the fact that the later either could not or decide to not enter into a pact with supernatural patron.

On the third hand (or is that a tentacle?), I am not sure if I agree with the notion that there shouldn't be added another system to represent something that should in my opinion be different and separate.

In fact, even within the field of magic I enjoy seeing different sub-systems. I liked the principles and ideas behind various magical classes in 3.5, like warlock and binder, even if actual execution sometimes wasn't successful. Primary example for me would be Magic Of Incarnum, which IMO was a great idea for a new mechanic that required much more polishing and development than it got. I wasn't thrilled about the explanation for incarnum being a stuff of unborn souls because of (again) cosmological reasons.

EDIT: Oh, and another example for different magic subsystems? Runequest with its Sorcery, Common Magic, Spirit Magic, Divine Magic, Enchantment and Rune Magic (note that names of some of the practices shifted between the various editions...)

Quote:
In world, being telepathically contacted by someone using a psychic magic spell and an arcane spell or simply from a telepathic monster should feel the same, after all.

But should it feel the same in the first place?

As you said this is the difference in approach on fundamental level and hard (if possible at all) to reconcile.

Besides of this fundamental disagreement, there is a problem of inherited mess. Lots of abilities associated with psychic powers were introduced in early (A)D&D, often at arbitrary levels and with arbitrary power. For example telekinesis got set at 5th spell level - because it got so high level, it also was decided to have great strength. As far as I remember, until the third edition and introduction of mage hand there wasn't less powerful telekinetic spell. Even now there is not much of them in between meaning that building a psychokinetic-themed psychic mage would be currently next to impossible. Many psychic characters that would work as inspiration have very specialized array of powers. I think that capability to scale a few known powers should be an important part of psychic flavor.


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James Jacobs wrote:

It's a third power source. We'd have arcane magic, divine magic, and psychic magic. In a perfect world, that'd be Intelligence-based, Wisdom-based, and Charisma-based magic respectively... but that ship has sailed. Yet that can still help inform the basic fundamentals of how each of the three magics are different.

My personal go-to source for inspiration for psychic magic is very much in sync with Erik—looking to real-world traditions of mesmerisim, spiritualisim, and so on.

But beyond that, and perhaps an even greater source of inspiration, are the various ways you see psychic magic show up and work in horror. Stephen King, in particular, has used this type of stuff in a LOT of his books—

Carrie features a telekinetic
Firestarter features a pyrokineticist and a mind controller
The Shining features a telepath/aura reader
And of course, the Dark Tower has a LOT of this stuff, with the fundamental plot being about psychic magic

And so on. You see psychic magic stuff show up in a lot of his work, like Duma Key, Hearts in Atlantis, Dreamcatcher, It, Pet Semetery, Tommyknockers, The Dark Half, Insomnia, and so on... psychic magic is one of the primary themes of King's work.

But there's more. The Necroscope books by Brian Lumley have some really interesting takes on it, such as the ability to communicate with the dead and use their skills as your own. George Martin has some of this kind of stuff going on with his three-eyed crow in Game of Thrones. And, of course, there's Lovecraft, with plot elements like you see in "The Thing on the Doorstep" or "The Shadow Out of Time" where you have mind transference effects in play.

I'm conflicted.

See, on the one hand, I love pretty much every source you list, and I'm interested and excited by the thought of psychic stuff that invokes their flavor.

On the other hand, Vancian spell slots seem like an absolutely terrible way to simulate any of them.


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Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
On the other hand, Vancian spell slots seem like an absolutely terrible way to simulate any of them.

That's my final point (beyond the wish to keep psychic powers separate from magic). And don't get me wrong, I do like Vancian magic (well for me it is more of Zelazny's magic from Amber series) but I find it incompatibile with feel and flavor of psychic powers.


But like James said, they already have monsters and powers meant to represent psychic powers, and those are already using the Vancian system, even if a distinct Psychic Magic has not yet been detailed. I haven't noticed anybody complaining how the implementation there is incompatable with the flavor of Psychic powers.


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Actually even reusing existing spells does not mean that it has to be Vancian magic. 3.5 warlocks and binders used lots of existing spells as a spell-like abilities without preparing spells. Or even using spell slots.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I'd like to see Psychic Magic as casters with a limited pool of flexible spells that increase in power and utility with higher slots used.

Eg:

Javier the Mesmerist knows: Fear Control. When cast as a 1st level spell it effects one creature with the shaken condition. When cast as a 3rd level spell it affects a 20 ft burst and can cause the frightened condition. When cast in a 5th level slot it affects a 50 ft burst and causes the panicked condition.


Knowing James Jacobs stance on psychic magic before I thought about something a bit warlock-like. Such psychic mages could get a small number of spell-like/supernatural abilities that are usable a limited number of times per day and some low level abilities usable at will. They should have their abilities determined by field of psychic abilities selected: ESP, PK, Telepathy.


Quandary wrote:
But like James said, they already have monsters and powers meant to represent psychic powers, and those are already using the Vancian system, even if a distinct Psychic Magic has not yet been detailed. I haven't noticed anybody complaining how the implementation there is incompatable with the flavor of Psychic powers.

But they aren't. They're using spell-like abilities, not spell slots.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

I would like to see binder or warlock-like classes that use existing spells.

Also, Steven Brust's Vlad Taltos and Khaavren Romances series have sorcerers, wizards, necromancers, witches, and psions.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
Quandary wrote:
But like James said, they already have monsters and powers meant to represent psychic powers, and those are already using the Vancian system, even if a distinct Psychic Magic has not yet been detailed. I haven't noticed anybody complaining how the implementation there is incompatable with the flavor of Psychic powers.
But they aren't. They're using spell-like abilities, not spell slots.

I noticed you mentioned Vancian magic a couple times. Would it make a difference for you if psychic characters functioned more like spontaneous casters?

I draw that distinction, because spontaneous casters are not strictly Vancian. At least not in terms of preparation and forgetting and re-memorizing.


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Jim Groves wrote:
Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
Quandary wrote:
But like James said, they already have monsters and powers meant to represent psychic powers, and those are already using the Vancian system, even if a distinct Psychic Magic has not yet been detailed. I haven't noticed anybody complaining how the implementation there is incompatable with the flavor of Psychic powers.
But they aren't. They're using spell-like abilities, not spell slots.

I noticed you mentioned Vancian magic a couple times. Would it make a difference for you if psychic characters functioned more like spontaneous casters?

I draw that distinction, because spontaneous casters are not strictly Vancian. At least not in terms of preparation and forgetting and re-memorizing.

Psychic mage sorcerer alternate class would be more acceptable for me than a spell-preparing psychic mage. Warlock/binder like class that uses spell-like abilities instead even more so.

Contributor, RPG Superstar 2010 Top 4

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Drejk wrote:
Psychic mage sorcerer alternate class would be more acceptable for me than a spell-preparing psychic mage. Warlock/binder like class that uses spell-like abilities instead even more so.

Sure, I can appreciate that. But I write this without intent of being condescending—spell-like abilities are essentially just spells. Right? With limited uses per day?

That's a lot like a spontaneous caster.

Of course, spell-like abilities don't require verbal, somatic, or material components. Since we're talking about psychic abilities...

I could see psychics as spontaneous casters with a sort of Eschew All Components bonus feat. I mean, as a designer that seems the least I could do to simulate the "powers of the Mind!" Especially if it made it more palatable and overcame some of these issues.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Drejk wrote:
Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
On the other hand, Vancian spell slots seem like an absolutely terrible way to simulate any of them.
That's my final point (beyond the wish to keep psychic powers separate from magic). And don't get me wrong, I do like Vancian magic (well for me it is more of Zelazny's magic from Amber series) but I find it incompatibile with feel and flavor of psychic powers.

I suspect what you actually find it incomparable with is PSIONIC powers, and the way they've been handled in D&D. That may be the case, but it's not what I'm talking about doing.

I'm NOT talking about using the 3.5 psionics PRD at all. If we do this... we're starting from the ground up.

In any event, it's not being worked on now, and so there's plenty of time for all sorts of unseen developments to develop in the next few years or decades or whatever.


James Jacobs wrote:
I suspect what you actually find it incomparable with is PSIONIC powers, and the way they've been handled in D&D. That may be the case, but it's not what I'm talking about doing.

Nope. I find it unsuitable for psychic powers. The process of assembling a spell and then storing it within one's mind/soul/aura isn't what in my opinion fits psychic powers.

Quote:
I'm NOT talking about using the 3.5 psionics PRD at all. If we do this... we're starting from the ground up.

I am sorry but apparently you did not understood my stance - I was never a supporter of 3.0/3.5 psionic rules.

Quote:
In any event, it's not being worked on now, and so there's plenty of time for all sorts of unseen developments to develop in the next few years or decades or whatever.

Good, it means we have more time to convince you to not use Vancian system ;)

Paizo Employee Senior Designer

James Jacobs wrote:
Drejk wrote:
Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
On the other hand, Vancian spell slots seem like an absolutely terrible way to simulate any of them.
That's my final point (beyond the wish to keep psychic powers separate from magic). And don't get me wrong, I do like Vancian magic (well for me it is more of Zelazny's magic from Amber series) but I find it incompatibile with feel and flavor of psychic powers.

I suspect what you actually find it incomparable with is PSIONIC powers, and the way they've been handled in D&D. That may be the case, but it's not what I'm talking about doing.

I'm NOT talking about using the 3.5 psionics PRD at all. If we do this... we're starting from the ground up.

In any event, it's not being worked on now, and so there's plenty of time for all sorts of unseen developments to develop in the next few years or decades or whatever.

I really like the idea of re-introducing psychic powers as a system that follows the same basic structure as the existing one, but with openings for new flavor and class features. To be honest, while I like Psionics, I feel like they are both:

a) Pretty well covered and converted by Dreamscarred
and
b) Occasionally a bit too complicated for less serious players. New players have a lot to take in, and new material keeping a certain level of familiarity with existing mechanics makes it more likely a wider range of players will get to understand and enjoy the material.

Let Dreamscarred take care of the old Psionic system that a large number of people are so fond of. Paizo should explore a new method and presentation of psychic phenomenon. The gaming community as a whole wins that way.

Shadow Lodge

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I agree, they should all use the same system. So for Pathfinder 2E, dump that old crappy Vancian BS.

:P

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Drejk wrote:


Good, it means we have more time to convince you to not use Vancian system ;)

If it means that, then it also means I have more time to convince you that the current magic system we have is the right one!


Since Psychic Magic is not even on the immediate horizon at Paizo,
I do think waiting until Pathfinder 2nd Edition to do it makes alot of sense...
Rather than releasing it just before a PRPG 2E is released, delay it just enough
so from the beginning it will be fully integrated with whatever new perspective Paizo wants for PRPG 2E...
perhaps even with that new perspective designed with Psychic Magic in mind.


I find it really hard to understand why anybody who really finds Vancian casting "crappy"
is even playing Pathfinder, or would bother to promote bolting a non-Vancian system atop/parallel to the Vancian core.
There really are a metric ton of game systems which are not Vancian in any way, and are designed around that premise from the start.


I have always disliked the point system for psionics and would love to see a vancian version. Though I have to wait to PRPG 2E then I would not care if it is ever used. There are many places of interest for me in Golarion and beyond that need psychic magic rules to flesh them out. It is a niche much more needed then rage mages, war priest, hunters, or slayers(the non-Buffy version).


I think psychic magic should be even more flexible than spontaneous magic by nature of it being mind-shaped on the fly. PP where a great mechanic in my mind, just was too much overcomplicated by usless weight like augmentation. After all everybody and their sons are used to the concept of "mana point", it's not something difficoult to master. I hope we see a return of the PP system with all the crap about augmentation being cut out.


Jim Groves wrote:
Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
Quandary wrote:
But like James said, they already have monsters and powers meant to represent psychic powers, and those are already using the Vancian system, even if a distinct Psychic Magic has not yet been detailed. I haven't noticed anybody complaining how the implementation there is incompatable with the flavor of Psychic powers.
But they aren't. They're using spell-like abilities, not spell slots.

I noticed you mentioned Vancian magic a couple times. Would it make a difference for you if psychic characters functioned more like spontaneous casters?

I draw that distinction, because spontaneous casters are not strictly Vancian. At least not in terms of preparation and forgetting and re-memorizing.

It's... better than memorizing, I'll give it that. (Although I would be all right with a spellbookish-psychic class as something that had grown up as a variant wizard tradition based on emulating "natural" psychics, much like wizards can be thought of to sorcerers.)

Of the non-power-point options that have been brought up, something like witch hexes/warlock invocations seems most reasonable to me, with limited uses per day saved for the heavier stuff.


Really? Use the same magic system? Might as well just not do it then. I really don't see the point. It's either magic, or psychic power, not both.

Simply just using the same magic system and tacking on the word psychic is just boring and lazy development. Hell, at that rate you might as well make it a Wizard archetype. >_>


James Jacobs wrote:
Drejk wrote:


Good, it means we have more time to convince you to not use Vancian system ;)
If it means that, then it also means I have more time to convince you that the current magic system we have is the right one!

Note that I gave up hope of not using spells and general rules of magic. Now I just want to avoid using prepared spellcasting for a psychic mage.

Quandry wrote:


Since Psychic Magic is not even on the immediate horizon at Paizo,
I do think waiting until Pathfinder 2nd Edition to do it makes alot of sense...
Rather than releasing it just before a PRPG 2E is released, delay it just enough
so from the beginning it will be fully integrated with whatever new perspective Paizo wants for PRPG 2E...
perhaps even with that new perspective designed with Psychic Magic in mind.

Actually, introduction of psychic magic system before 2nd edition of Pathfinder would be mostly advantageous. It would provide the designers with more perspective that would allow better integration of psychic magic in the 2nd edition afterwards.

Quote:


I find it really hard to understand why anybody who really finds Vancian casting "crappy"
is even playing Pathfinder, or would bother to promote bolting a non-Vancian system atop/parallel to the Vancian core.

"Crappy"? Who says it's crappy? It's great when used for magic but unfit to capture flavor of psychic powers, that's all.

Quote:
There really are a metric ton of game systems which are not Vancian in any way, and are designed around that premise from the start.

Then we would have to bolt Vancian magic system to them to have both next to each other. Oh, actually Runequest and GURPS Thaumatology have Vancian-like magic system next to power point system next to more freeform system available at the same time. Not as exclusive systems.


Kthulhu wrote:
I agree, they should all use the same system. So for Pathfinder 2E, dump that old crappy Vancian BS.


Quandary wrote:
Kthulhu wrote:
I agree, they should all use the same system. So for Pathfinder 2E, dump that old crappy Vancian BS.

Ah, right, sorry. I read that comment just before going to sleep and forgot about it.

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