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Note: We haven't actually started doing anything significant in-house with psychic magic. In fact... the term "psychic magic" isn't even yet something we'll 100% be using. I've certainly got my own ideas on how to handle the subject... and those ideas will certainly influence what we do with the subject... if indeed we ever DO something with it (I hope we do!).
But right now, they're just musings. Not much more.
Mentalists?
Whatever you do, don't make psychic powers working as Vancian magic - it will miss the whole point of having psychic powers in the first place.
Now, if we could only have psychic powers be separate from magic... *sigh* One can dream.
I fundamentally disagree.
Having psychic magic work the same way as our current magic system is a significant draw for me. After all, divine magic and arcane magic both follow the same rules. Having psychic magic do the same means you don't have to learn a new system; you could make a psychic character immediately and know how to play him/her.
The point of psychic magic isn't to introduce a new system of rules into the game. The point is to enable a new flavor of magic and mysticism and story elements to exist in the game.
In world, being telepathically contacted by someone using a psychic magic spell and an arcane spell or simply from a telepathic monster should feel the same, after all. So why should the rules feel different?
In fact, that's the primary reason I'm calling it psychc magic and not psionics. Dreamscarred has already done a Pathfinder version of psionics from the 3.5 SRD. I don't want to "overwrite" that by publishing a conflicting or different version of mind-based supernatural powers, and by calling our version "psychic magic" we don't. Psionics and psychic magic can, in theory, exist side by side in a setting. Or you can pick the one you want to use in your game.
My interest in developing and incorporating this type of supernatural element into Pathfinder is...
I am inordinately happy to hear you guys have no plans to step on DSP's toes. I'll be very interested to see what "Psychic Magic" is capable of, but I'm just as happy that DSP Psionics will still have a place at the table for people who enjoy crystals, power points etc.
I wounder how they are going to explain a prepared psychic mage.Quite easily, I'd imagine. If you accept the concept of prepared casters, the idea that a psychic who "prepares" himself by slowly funneling his energy into specific pre-determined effects doesn't seem that far-fetched to me. Especially if the prepared caster goes through seven levels of spells as tied to each of the Chakra or something.
Regardless, I had guessed as much anyway; my question is what sorts of classes are we going to see? A mentalist, who is effectively the wizard with psychic instead of arcane magic? A psyker character who can burn spell slots to generate blasts of pure energy? A guru character who was class features to effect the eternal energies of himself and others? I now casting-wise the psychic classes will be similar to other spellcasters; I am asking what sort of features do we think we will be seeing for the classes.While I can't speculate on the actual mechanics, I can mention some of the things James has thrown around:
Yogi, Fakir, Seer, Telepath, Mystic ...
... you know, let me just link it. :)
Thank you very much.
Personally I would like to see a Paizo take on a Yogi and Seer.
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I really would have liked a psychic magic hardcover book over the Advanced Class Guide.
It's been said before, but main main requests would be:
1. You're right don't step on Dreamscarred's toes. They gave us a great 3.5 update and we'd rather you make something new.
2. If you are creating an new system, it should line up with the Vancian
system already in place.
3. Please make it so the "psychic mages" have fewer, but more versatile "spells" compared to, say, wizards. I don't imagine a psychic with 50 different abilities. I imagine them with 10-12 powers that they are very good at.
4. Please, please, please link psychic magic and chi. Monks using a limited form of psychic magic for their abilities makes total sense mechanically and fluff-wise.
A psyker character who can burn spell slots to generate blasts of pure energy?
Ick. If I see anything resembling the word "psyker" I'll stay far, far away from it.
A psyker character who can burn spell slots to generate blasts of pure energy?Ick. If I see anything resembling the word "psyker" I'll stay far, far away from it.
I personally love the phrase; can't get enough of it. Psyker. I their take on a 'psychic magus' is dubbed a psyker.
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Meh, too much connotation with Warhammer and their specific cosmology...
I have always liked the term "Espers" for psychic characters.
Meh, too much connotation with Warhammer and their specific cosmology...
And it's one of those not-actually-a-word things, so highly unlikely.
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I have always liked the term "Espers" for psychic characters.
I agree. Though I believe JJ said that the term is a bit too sciency. Although Final Fantasy 6 used the term in a Renaissance Fantasy setting and it fit honestly.
I have always liked the term "Espers" for psychic characters.I agree. Though I believe JJ said that the term is a bit too sciency. Although Final Fantasy 6 used the term in a Renaissance Fantasy setting and it fit honestly.
I have to disagree -- the Phantom Beasts were magical beings, and tagging them with "Extra-Sensory Perception" just never made sense to me.
I like this and can't wait to see how it turns out. It sounds similar to something I did a while ago (Mind Mage) that used "psychic magic" (to borrow JJs term, LOL) while using spell slots (spontaneous, not prepared). There were three versions, with the final (third version) the one that we finally pruned down to something on par with the current classes.
It was a 0-9th level caster, with a few psychically themed special abilities and a spell list that concentrated on "traditional" psychic powers.
Anyway, feel free to check it out. And, Mr. Jacobs, I will be watching for what ya'll do release with great interest.
MA
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Personally, I rather like Psionics being a third source of power separate from Arcane and Divine...
That and the feel of the powers that came out of the power point system, augmentation, and backlash. It felt more organic.
All that, and I never minded psionics being stopped by standard magical protections at all. Dreamscarred actually recommends that transparency as the default IIRC.
i like teh brain powerz
Creative Director
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I like this and can't wait to see how it turns out. It sounds similar to something I did a while ago (Mind Mage) that used "psychic magic" (to borrow JJs term, LOL) while using spell slots (spontaneous, not prepared). There were three versions, with the final (third version) the one that we finally pruned down to something on par with the current classes.
It was a 0-9th level caster, with a few psychically themed special abilities and a spell list that concentrated on "traditional" psychic powers.
Anyway, feel free to check it out. And, Mr. Jacobs, I will be watching for what ya'll do release with great interest.
MA
I appreciate folks are eager to test these waters, but for time management and for legal reasons, I'm not interested in checking out unsolicited submissions for any topic.
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For me, the only 'problem' with psionics in my fantasy is that so many psychic phenomena and powers have already been scurrilously poached by spellcasters. Teleportation? A word coined in the fifties. Telekinesis? Clairvoyance? Yeesh. Wizards are shameless.
Plus there's all the sci-fi spells and magic items, like reverse gravity, clone, wall of force, temporal stasis and spheres of annihilation, or the old, old stuff like duo-dimension or distance distortion or expanding spheres of fire that fill 33,000 cubic feet.
Psychic powers like 'the sight,' spiritualism/mediumship, psychic healing and hexing people feels many times more 'magical' than a lot of the overly mechanical spells that wizards read out of their textbooks and manuals. A psychic healer links his life to another empathically, risking taking on some of the hurt and pain that his patient is suffering, attempting to strengthen their life with his own. A spellcaster reaches out to another dimension and pulls 'healing energy' from it. What sounds like 'magic' and what sounds like something out of Star Trek?
I wonder if a Words of Power type psychic magic system would feel more 'organic' than a prepared spell-slot system?
Alternately, one could work up a series of 'Psychic' Bloodlines, one focused on mind to mind effects (communication, divination and enchantment effects), one to mind over body techniques (including self adaptation, possible self-buffs, healing and buffs to others, allowing for a few very different builds just with this one 'bloodline,' with one focusing on self-enhancement and boosting his fighting capabilities, and another on healing and buffing allies, and a third on causing disruptions in the bodies of others, debuffing and damaging them) and another on mind over matter (telekinesis, perhaps more obscure variations like pyrokinesis, or even mind over energy, allowing light or electrical manifestations). Each Bloodline would be a thing unto itself, but include feat options to take a power or two from the other lines, so that your 'telepath' might also be able to call up a bit of telekinesis or healing, in a pinch.
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I have to disagree -- the Phantom Beasts were magical beings, and tagging them with "Extra-Sensory Perception" just never made sense to me.I have always liked the term "Espers" for psychic characters.I agree. Though I believe JJ said that the term is a bit too sciency. Although Final Fantasy 6 used the term in a Renaissance Fantasy setting and it fit honestly.
Idk, we already have more modern words like telekinesis and teleportation that would normally belong in the realm of sci-fi. I think we can make room for Espers.
EDIT: Semi ninja'd by Set.
I have always liked the term "Espers" for psychic characters.I agree. Though I believe JJ said that the term is a bit too sciency. Although Final Fantasy 6 used the term in a Renaissance Fantasy setting and it fit honestly.
For me Esper would be fine name for a specific psychic class that focuses on extra-senesory perception (which would be divination for PMaPbJ [Psychic Magic as proposed by James]). It would fit next to Psychokinetist and Telepath.
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That's the truth. The Wiz/Sor spell lists have a lot of effects that mirror up with what would be called Psy. But I can see a lot of unique applications of such powers. Telekinesis has the range of:
Mage Hand, Telekinesis, X Hand powers. But what if you could flesh that out with more Force based effects? Allow for subtle stuff like Gravity Bow meets melee? Or cool environmental control that only gets touched on by some spells. There ARE options to flesh out Psi powers uniquely.
Also, I would love to see a PF version/update of the 3.5 Warlock. That was one of my favorite classes.Wait no longer!
How does this version compare with the original?
Also, I would second some kind of word of power based PF psychic words of power. Has more versatility without some of the feel of modern spell casting.
How does this version compare with the original?Also, I would love to see a PF version/update of the 3.5 Warlock. That was one of my favorite classes.Wait no longer!
It has the eldritch blast (renamed of course) and the at-will spell-likes that cover the basic feel. A lot of the other class abilities vary heavily between the various pacts - you'll get some shapes/essences for free with some of them, or a free SLA, or small things like that. The flavor is added well, and it really gives the class more fluff options than the inherently demon-flavored 3.5 Warlock.
It really has everything you'd want out of the old version and enough interesting new stuff to make it worth picking up the update rather than just slipping the old Complete Arcane version into a PF game.
I would like an Esper class or at least an Esper sorcerer bloodline.
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Also, I would love to see a PF version/update of the 3.5 Warlock. That was one of my favorite classes.Wait no longer!
This seems more like the Binder. And it's not on the PFSRD so I can't read it to see if it's any good.
If it is just another Binder, Radiance House's Occultist already scratches that itch very well for me.
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But I can see a lot of unique applications of such powers. Telekinesis has the range of:
Mage Hand, Telekinesis, X Hand powers. But what if you could flesh that out with more Force based effects? Allow for subtle stuff like Gravity Bow meets melee? Or cool environmental control that only gets touched on by some spells. There ARE options to flesh out Psi powers uniquely.
The Hand of the Acolyte / Apprentice and 'Telekinetic Fist' powers from the Arcane and Transmutation Wizard specializations would make logical low level effects for a telekinetic, as would spells like levitate and fly (and a hostile version of levitate that allowed you to dangle and drop others). A single target version of reverse gravity. Tons of spells that do 'ranged combat maneuver X' like a bull rush or disarm or trip or reposition / drag effect, both single target and mass versions. (Similar to what hydraulic push and mass hydraulic push do, without the water.) A 'mind over matter' psychic mage would be great at crowd control. Other effects, such as a single target or group slow effect, could be fluffed as being the result of telekinetic forces pushing against someone. Various 'hand' spells could work as well, and the 'wind' spells, including options that use the wind and weather rules offensively or defensively (surrounding yourself with a repulsive telekinetic field that causes all enemies to treat you as if they had to fire through strong or gale-force winds, for instance, while not impeding, or perhaps even *enhancing* your own missile fire, like a combined personal levitate + wind wall + gravity bow).
Comic book 'telekinesis' (a la Jean Grey and her pink fluffy stuff) aside, I'd veer away from force attacks or walls being overly tied to telekinesis. It's already a hugely versatile thing, just moving stuff around.
Also, I would love to see a PF version/update of the 3.5 Warlock. That was one of my favorite classes.Wait no longer!This seems more like the Binder. And it's not on the PFSRD so I can't read it to see if it's any good.
If it is just another Binder, Radiance House's Occultist already scratches that itch very well for me.
The "Pact Magic" title is in reference to the fact that the Invoker makes a pact with a particular source - Fey, Fiend, etc. - in exchange for their power. The type of pact you make effects some of the bonuses you get.
Mechanically, down to the SLAs and the blast attack, it's straight-up Warlock.
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Also, I would love to see a PF version/update of the 3.5 Warlock. That was one of my favorite classes.Wait no longer!This seems more like the Binder. And it's not on the PFSRD so I can't read it to see if it's any good.
If it is just another Binder, Radiance House's Occultist already scratches that itch very well for me.
The "Pact Magic" title is in reference to the fact that the Invoker makes a pact with a particular source - Fey, Fiend, etc. - in exchange for their power. The type of pact you make effects some of the bonuses you get.
Mechanically, down to the SLAs and the blast attack, it's straight-up Warlock.
Oh, so it's more of a power source thing. Yeah that's significantly better.
I'd still like to see it in the SRD before deciding though. And I did buy both the PDF and print copy of Pact Magic Unbound (not to mention picking up a lot of the DSP Psionic stuff), so seeing something on the SRD doesn't stop me from spending money on it.
You'll have to take that up with Little Red Goblin and Jreyst and the PFSRD crew unfortunately.
It's a third power source. We'd have arcane magic, divine magic, and psychic magic. In a perfect world, that'd be Intelligence-based, Wisdom-based, and Charisma-based magic respectively... but that ship has sailed. Yet that can still help inform the basic fundamentals of how each of the three magics are different.
My personal go-to source for inspiration for psychic magic is very much in sync with Erik—looking to real-world traditions of mesmerisim, spiritualisim, and so on.
But beyond that, and perhaps an even greater source of inspiration, are the various ways you see psychic magic show up and work in horror. Stephen King, in particular, has used this type of stuff in a LOT of his books—
Carrie features a telekinetic
Firestarter features a pyrokineticist and a mind controller
The Shining features a telepath/aura reader
And of course, the Dark Tower has a LOT of this stuff, with the fundamental plot being about psychic magicAnd so on. You see psychic magic stuff show up in a lot of his work, like Duma Key, Hearts in Atlantis, Dreamcatcher, It, Pet Semetery, Tommyknockers, The Dark Half, Insomnia, and so on... psychic magic is one of the primary themes of King's work.
But there's more. The Necroscope books by Brian Lumley have some really interesting takes on it, such as the ability to communicate with the dead and use their skills as your own. George Martin has some of this kind of stuff going on with his three-eyed crow in Game of Thrones. And, of course, there's Lovecraft, with plot elements like you see in "The Thing on the Doorstep" or "The...
While the ship has sailed on splitting the three magics up based on mental ability by source rather than method of use, I think this could be an interesting path of rules modification to explore by home brewers.
One of the complications with this is tying the fluff to such mechanics. Real world inspirations such as traditional South Asian religion, various Spiritualism movements (including related or submovements such as Theosophy and Spiritism), into modern New Age practices tend to focus on perceiving the "other world" "true nature of the world" "spiritual underpinning of the world" or such to come to understanding and enlightenment. This to me feels to be more of a wisdom based source of magic. It is mostly in modern psi fiction and a narrower band of modern psychic movements that focuses on will, on mind over matter. In yogi traditions will brought about the effects, but only after correct perception.
Traditional D&D (or modern fantasy in general) divine magic is often about channeling transcendent sources of power into real effects. However, sometimes this is referenced has actually entreating or willing these sources to bring about these effects. So animistic practices of entreating or manipulating spirits, and the more transcendent requests of prayer or ritual worship has an element that I could see being more Charisma based rather than wisdom based. Even look into the Greek origins and uses of the word Charisma, and the divinely gifted nature of it or the various Charismatic movements in the Abrahamic faiths.
It is of course all a matter of presentation. D&D style monks could easily have ties to psychic magic, but it would seem odd at first for monk capability to be tied to Charisma rather than Wisdom until a huge stressing of the "willful" "mind over matter" fluff material.
Not that the standard interpretation of Wisdom is divine, Charisma is will/psychic, and Intelligence is arcane/occult magic is wrong. It makes perfect sense in the history of how the game came about and the current fluff. Personally, my preference would be to adjust it to focus on Wisdom is psychic/enlightenment perception magic, Intelligence is arcane/occult learning magic, and Charisma is petition/channeling divine favor magic.
All divine magic is wisdom based -
- Most current classes already fit this model. The main change would be Oracles changing the core statistic for their spellcasting and most of their abilities. Their is very little to no need to adjust the background material on Oracles in this system.
All arcane magic is intelligence based -
- This has most of the difficult heavily lifting in my opinion. Magi, witches, and wizards already fit this very well. Summoners as intelligence users doesn't present too many problems, but I could see them being presented as psychic mages if psychic magic is charisma based. Bards and sorcerers however present interesting problems. Sorcerer background material needs a little adjustment, as currently natural talent and will heavily influence the expression of the class. Changing the capabilities to Intelligence based essentially means the characters have raw power but increased understanding and practice means better mastery. A low intelligence sorcerer has the raw power and instinctual knowledge to manipulate reality, but not enough understanding to do so well. For bards, there are a number of ways to approach this. Change the class to completely intelligence based, making their magical capabilities all learning based, though Charisma still remains important for skill-based magics and general skill usage. Split their spellcasting to intelligence but keep their bardic music as charisma, increasing the MADness of the class slightly more than the previous option or the current rules set. Switch bards to the appropriate Charisma based, psychic bards essentially being something akin to Mesmerism (and not far off current background material really), and divine bards essentially being free roaming charismatics gifted by but not dependent on the gods in a more ancient Greek than traditional Abrahamic view of charismatics.
All divine magic is charisma based -
- Likely the most confusing to many even if it easy to handle. Clerics, Inquisitors, and Paladins have powers and spells based off of Charisma, become less MAD (Inquisitors become slightly more MAD because of skills), and easily fluff their powers and petitioning prayers and channeling of divine grace. Oracles basically stay the same, but the fluff is more about gifted charismatic abilities rather than willfully using gifted abilities, a minor point of distinction in my opinion. Druids and rangers receive a greater focus on their animistic aspects in my opinion.
Spell like abilities probably need some attention too. Personally, I think if such a change were to occur in magic the spell like abilities of races, just like ones granted by way of classes, should be tied to various ability scores as appropriate rather than always charisma.
That's simplistic and patronising. Not everyone who bars psionics from their campaigns is either afraid of it, or can't comprehend the system.
Some of us bar it for the same reasons that we don't consider firearms or samurai a fitting part of our campaign worlds, especially if we're going for a more pure "swords and sorcery" feel. Or the system just clashes with our sense of D20 esthetics. They make a vastly different flavor element of the world as opposed to invocations and cast magic.
Geez - No where did i say that every DM is "afraid" or cant "comprehend" Psionics. Why are there forum people so ready to attack others on these forums?
3.5 Psionics isnt perfect - i would rather have Psionics as Supernatural abilities like Witch hexes instead of working like magic..i dont like the slot system.... prefer a Shadowrun type magic system.
No one is forcing anyone to use Psionics, Asian themed items or firearms. If you dont like them, dont use them. I actually like all 3.
I would like psionics/psychic magic to work like both spells and supernatural abilities(hexes) depending on the class. But what I would really like to see is psychic magic hardcover book with several psychic related classes and psychic related archetypes for every class in pathfinder.
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3.5 Psionics isnt perfect - i would rather have Psionics as Supernatural abilities like Witch hexes instead of working like magic..i dont like the slot system...
Because of playing a fair number of games where mana is a numerical resource, such as in GURPS, or many video games, I've always tended to associate mana point systems with magic, and not psionics / psychic stuff anyway.
I'd much prefer a psychic system run more like witch hexes, and not based off of 'slots' *or* 'points,' both of which feel too mechanical and technical and 'un-mystical' for either a spiritual / psychic *or* an occult / magic balancing system.
Giving that spells have already stolen telepathy, telekinesis, astral projection, teleportation (a concept invented in the hoary depths of the medieval sorcery, in the 1950s, and a huge departure from the 'magical' means of travel in actual ancient stories, such as flying brooms or seven league boots...), clairvoyance, etc. from psychic lore, any complaints that 'psionics don't feel magical' is kind of a silly exercise in closing barn doors 40 years after the horses got out.
This is a game where 'magic' has involved spatial distortion fields, spells like duo-dimension and time stop, dimensional travel, 33,000 cubic ft. expanding spheres of fire, tiny black holes that you can send to annhilate your foes, etc. The notion that a pistol, katana or telekinetic are going to stretch fantasy verisimilitude to its breaking point is kind of silly.
It's not like I need to use anything I don't want, anyway. If it's possible for my home games to have no gunslingers or samurai, then it's equally possible for them to have no psychics.
More options is cool, but I've never felt compelled to include stuff I don't want to use, even back in the days when the 'optional' stuff included new-fangled classes like the Illusionist or races like the Half-Ogre or, on-point, the whacky 'everyone has a 1% chance to have a random psionic power!' rules in the back of the Players Handbook.
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I'm going to say I am incredibly leery of this. Especially if it uses the Vancian system.
Mostly... the Vancian system is not something that feels like psionics or anything psychic. Or, for that matter, anything to do with magic. It feels more like playing a video game, and even then it doesn't manage anywhere near the feel of actually being a magic user as most video games do.
Add to that the terms. "Psychic magic" makes me twitch, especially since that happens to be the definition of "psionics." Psychic abilities are normally portrayed as, for the most part, being "always on" abilities. Meaning, you have to actually concentrate to turn them off or ignore them. So I am seriously questioning if this is going to be a good system, or if it's just going to be 3.5 sorcerers with a fresh coat of paint slapped on.
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Unfortunately so many DMs over the years don't allow Psionic point system. They all had 1 player who abused the system & "cheated" with it so now they refuse to allow it in their campaigns.
That's simplistic and patronising. Not everyone who bars psionics from their campaigns is either afraid of it, or can't comprehend the system.
Some of us bar it for the same reasons that we don't consider firearms or samurai a fitting part of our campaign worlds, especially if we're going for a more pure "swords and sorcery" feel. Or the system just clashes with our sense of D20 esthetics. They make a vastly different flavor element of the world as opposed to invocations and cast magic.
If you're that attached to 3.5 psionics, Dreamscarred has an excellent set of products that will serve you... Buy them. Waiting for Paizo to go down that exact same route is an exercise in futility.
"Pure" sword and sorcery is subjective, since Robert E Howard saw fit to put an alien in his Conan story "The Tower of the Elephant". And one could argue that sword and sorcery was inspired in part by the sword and planet Barsoom series of novels by Burroughs.
Never forget your roots ;)
That's simplistic and patronising. Not everyone who bars psionics from their campaigns is either afraid of it, or can't comprehend the system.
Some of us bar it for the same reasons that we don't consider firearms or samurai a fitting part of our campaign worlds, especially if we're going for a more pure "swords and sorcery" feel. Or the system just clashes with our sense of D20 esthetics. They make a vastly different flavor element of the world as opposed to invocations and cast magic.
Geez - No where did i say that every DM is "afraid" or cant "comprehend" Psionics. Why are there forum people so ready to attack others on these forums?
3.5 Psionics isnt perfect - i would rather have Psionics as Supernatural abilities like Witch hexes instead of working like magic..i dont like the slot system.... prefer a Shadowrun type magic system.
No one is forcing anyone to use Psionics, Asian themed items or firearms. If you dont like them, dont use them. I actually like all 3.
Took three months for a comeback, eh? You sure showed him :p
I kid of course, I kid!
That said, nobody is forcing you to use Paizo's version (if it ever comes out). You can always use DSP's updated version.
I'm going to say I am incredibly leery of this. Especially if it uses the Vancian system.
Mostly... the Vancian system is not something that feels like psionics or anything psychic. Or, for that matter, anything to do with magic. It feels more like playing a video game, and even then it doesn't manage anywhere near the feel of actually being a magic user as most video games do...
Weird, because I feel that way about spellpoints. The majority of the video games I've seen played with magic in it use a spell-point system (ala mana, MP, whatever) rather than spell slots. Final Fantasy, World of Warcraft, Disgaea, Legend of Zelda, Star Ocean, Kingdom of Loathing, The Tales Series, Golden Sun, The Elder Scrolls, Kingdom Hearts... I literally could go on. In fact, I can only really name Dark Souls as a game that uses a Vancian style of magic and it does a really good job of it. I guess Pokemon counts as Vancian sort of with their Power Points :p
So to me, this argument kind of falls flat on its back.
The first Final Fantasy used a "Vancian style" system for magic.
The first Final Fantasy used a "Vancian style" system for magic.
It did, yes, but my point is that there are a large wealth of video games that use "spell points", I'd hazard to say that there are more that use a point system than a Vancian style of casting. That's why the idea that the Vancian system is "too video gamey" makes little sense to me, since many of the most famous VGRPGs use spell points in some fashion.
And before you say it, yes, Final Fantasy III and 8 also used a form of Vancian in it :p
I am not a fan of "magic points", it is a lot harder to keep up and it is way too video gamey for me. Having then use the vancian system for psychic magic users is fine but I do want some supernatural abilities as well and "psychic warrior" type classes should have nothing but supernatural abilities. In other words "psychic warrior" types should have no abilities that provoke AoO.
I also don't understand why some people want psychic stuff to use Ki. That is fine if you are playing a psychic monk or psychic ninja but not for most other classes.
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I am not a fan of "magic points", it is a lot harder to keep up and it is way too video gamey for me. Having then use the vancian system for psychic magic users is fine but I do want some supernatural abilities as well and "psychic warrior" type classes should have nothing but supernatural abilities. In other words "psychic warrior" types should have no abilities that provoke AoO.
I also don't understand why some people want psychic stuff to use Ki. That is fine if you are playing a psychic monk or psychic ninja but not for most other classes.
I can explain. Some people want psionics to have a more fantasy feel to it and instead compare it to aesthetics like yogis and fakirs. So naturally, ki or chi would be useful for portraying psychic abilities like that.
I am sure we will get psychic classes that use some of those mechanics.
Last I remember when James Jacobs talked about it he said if/when they do Psychic magic that there would be several classes not just one or two. So chances are we will get a variety of mechanics to play with. Now that the Advanced Classes Guide is coming out, it looks like we will be waiting a awhile longer for such rules.
Weird, because I feel that way about spellpoints. The majority of the video games I've seen played with magic in it use a spell-point system (ala mana, MP, whatever) rather than spell slots. Final Fantasy, World of Warcraft, Disgaea, Legend of Zelda, Star Ocean, Kingdom of Loathing, The Tales Series, Golden Sun, The Elder Scrolls, Kingdom Hearts... I literally could go on. In fact, I can only really name Dark Souls as a game that uses a Vancian style of magic and it does a really good job of it. I guess Pokemon counts as Vancian sort of with their Power Points :p
So to me, this argument kind of falls flat on its back.
You're right. Your argument does fall flat on its back.
I didn't suggest using spellpoints. Please do not put words in my mouth.
Shadowrun actually does magic as the closest to how magic and psionics work in fantasy. Of all of the systems I have played, it is the one most adept at replicating a fantasy feel for magic, and it takes very little to reskin magic as psionics and have the psionics both feel as being different and not be imbalanced with the magic.
The spellpoints that 3.5 psionics used were a close non-Shadowrun approximation for psionics, while the warlock was the closest on magic of the 3.5 efforts. The point system is popular because it allows an easily-referenced mechanic for how tired of casting spells your magic user is while Shadowrun pretty much assumes that you can cast until the sun explodes as long as you keep making your rolls. The problem is that no one plays it that way; running out of magical power should give you something equivalent to the fatigued state.
I will say they failed pretty hard with spirit-based magic on Incarnum, and I've been waiting for someone to make another go at it for Pathfinder. So far, I've not really seen any good ones at all for Pathfinder and I'm dreading the possibility that an Incarnum conversion may be the best I could get.
So, you could say I'm not really happy with the entire magic system, but I make do because designing a different one is a bit of a nightmare. Especially when you start getting into the different types of necromancy.
Edit: And I apologize for my tone in this. It irritates me when people respond to something I have said, insert their own idea of what argument I'm making (which usually, as today, has nothing to do with what I actually said), and then state an argument against it as though they are actually addressing my real point. I understand that sometimes it's easier to put people into neat little groups, but some of us wouldn't know what the box looked like even if you handed it to us.
I still would like Psychic Magic to be more of an add-on, like Mythic, to existing rules. I think the Way of Ki by Legendary Games comes pretty close to what I'd like it to look like. Essentially use the ki pool and it becomes a pool that you use to boost your existing abilities.
For more psychic/psionic adrenaline surge sorts of abilities, you'd just use them to boost your combat prowess, skill checks, etc.
A "psionicist" with telekinetic powers and such? Just a sorcerer or wizard who uses his ki pool to boost his spells to be more damaging, or hard to resist, etc.
I think the Way of Ki by Legendary Games comes pretty close to what I'd like it to look like. Essentially use the ki pool and it becomes a pool that you use to boost your existing abilities.
I really enjoy The Way of Ki book and its expansion....especially with the psionic inspired abilities....also love how you can add it to the Base/Core existing classes.
Nice artwork in it too.
Weird, because I feel that way about spellpoints. The majority of the video games I've seen played with magic in it use a spell-point system (ala mana, MP, whatever) rather than spell slots. Final Fantasy, World of Warcraft, Disgaea, Legend of Zelda, Star Ocean, Kingdom of Loathing, The Tales Series, Golden Sun, The Elder Scrolls, Kingdom Hearts... I literally could go on. In fact, I can only really name Dark Souls as a game that uses a Vancian style of magic and it does a really good job of it. I guess Pokemon counts as Vancian sort of with their Power Points :p
So to me, this argument kind of falls flat on its back.
You're right. Your argument does fall flat on its back.
I didn't suggest using spellpoints. Please do not put words in my mouth.
Shadowrun actually does magic as the closest to how magic and psionics work in fantasy. Of all of the systems I have played, it is the one most adept at replicating a fantasy feel for magic, and it takes very little to reskin magic as psionics and have the psionics both feel as being different and not be imbalanced with the magic.
The spellpoints that 3.5 psionics used were a close non-Shadowrun approximation for psionics, while the warlock was the closest on magic of the 3.5 efforts. The point system is popular because it allows an easily-referenced mechanic for how tired of casting spells your magic user is while Shadowrun pretty much assumes that you can cast until the sun explodes as long as you keep making your rolls. The problem is that no one plays it that way; running out of magical power should give you something equivalent to the fatigued state.
I will say they failed pretty hard with spirit-based magic on Incarnum, and I've been waiting for someone to make another go at it for Pathfinder. So far, I've not really seen any good ones at all for Pathfinder and I'm dreading the possibility that an Incarnum conversion may be the best I could get.
So, you could say I'm not really happy with the entire magic system, but I...
Well if you had actually said what your idea was instead of just saying "I don't like Vancian", I wouldn't have had to assume your real point.
Next time, state your real point so others don't have to infer it.
Well if you had actually said what your idea was instead of just saying "I don't like Vancian", I wouldn't have had to assume your real point.
Next time, state your real point so others don't have to infer it.
"I don't like Vancian" was my real point. That's why my first post was entirely limited to discussing the Vancian system and the idea of psychic magic. That bit about other systems was to address you, not to make a suggestion to the Paizo crew.
Once again, please do not put words in my mouth. And please do not presume to know my mind. You are not a telepath.
Well if you had actually said what your idea was instead of just saying "I don't like Vancian", I wouldn't have had to assume your real point.
Next time, state your real point so others don't have to infer it.
"I don't like Vancian" was my real point. That's why my first post was entirely limited to discussing the Vancian system and the idea of psychic magic. That bit about other systems was to address you, not to make a suggestion to the Paizo crew.
Once again, please do not put words in my mouth. And please do not presume to know my mind. You are not a telepath.
You keep talking about me putting words in your mouth when it's been you doing that all along. First, you assume that I'm assuming that you're suggestion about spellpoints, when in reality, I was remarking on the general argument about how magic can feel "video gamey" is a poor argument. What does "video gamey" even mean anyways and why is it somehow bad? So what if spellpoints or Vancian is video gamey if it's fun and easy to use? To be honest, having played Shadowrun, I didn't think the magic system was that great, nor evocative of what "real" magic feels like. But again, that's just my opinion and what system works fluff-wise is always subjective.
Of course, then, instead of politely telling me that wasn't your point (which I would have conceded if done so), you went off being all irritated and self-righteous, as if I had somehow offended your honor by "putting words in your mouth". I'll admit to missing your point, but not to putting you in some neat group or whatever crazy paranoid thing you apparently think I'm doing.
So please, do not put words in my mouth. And please do not presume to know my mind. You are not a telepath. And if you were, you're really bad at it :p
Well if you had actually said what your idea was instead of just saying "I don't like Vancian", I wouldn't have had to assume your real point.
Next time, state your real point so others don't have to infer it.
"I don't like Vancian" was my real point. That's why my first post was entirely limited to discussing the Vancian system and the idea of psychic magic. That bit about other systems was to address you, not to make a suggestion to the Paizo crew.
Once again, please do not put words in my mouth. And please do not presume to know my mind. You are not a telepath.
You keep talking about me putting words in your mouth when it's been you doing that all along. First, you assume that I'm assuming that you're suggestion about spellpoints, when in reality, I was remarking on the general argument about how magic can feel "video gamey" is a poor argument. What does "video gamey" even mean anyways and why is it somehow bad? So what if spellpoints or Vancian is video gamey if it's fun and easy to use? To be honest, having played Shadowrun, I didn't think the magic system was that great, nor evocative of what "real" magic feels like. But again, that's just my opinion and what system works fluff-wise is always subjective.
Of course, then, instead of politely telling me that wasn't your point (which I would have conceded if done so), you went off being all irritated and self-righteous, as if I had somehow offended your honor by "putting words in your mouth". I'll admit to missing your point, but not to putting you in some neat group or whatever crazy paranoid thing you apparently think I'm doing.
So please, do not put words in my mouth. And please do not presume to know my mind. You are not a telepath. And if you were, you're really bad at it :p
I think this part of my initial reply to you is what you are referring to in the part about being crazy paranoid:
Edit: And I apologize for my tone in this. It irritates me when people respond to something I have said, insert their own idea of what argument I'm making (which usually, as today, has nothing to do with what I actually said), and then state an argument against it as though they are actually addressing my real point. I understand that sometimes it's easier to put people into neat little groups, but some of us wouldn't know what the box looked like even if you handed it to us.
I openly admitted to being irritated within it to address the irritated tone that came across at the beginning of my post, because I knew I was irritated and knew my irritation was carrying through quite loudly.
However, the bit about not putting people in groups was meant as a self-deprecating joke. Thus, the implication I am blind with the bit about not knowing a box's appearance even if I were holding it. I can see it came across rather poorly, and for that I apologize; I should have used more sense in how I delivered humor.
The part that made me think you were assuming I was talking about spellpoints was this:
Weird, because I feel that way about spellpoints. The majority of the video games I've seen played with magic in it use a spell-point system (ala mana, MP, whatever) rather than spell slots. Final Fantasy, World of Warcraft, Disgaea, Legend of Zelda, Star Ocean, Kingdom of Loathing, The Tales Series, Golden Sun, The Elder Scrolls, Kingdom Hearts... I literally could go on. In fact, I can only really name Dark Souls as a game that uses a Vancian style of magic and it does a really good job of it. I guess Pokemon counts as Vancian sort of with their Power Points :p
Given I was critiquing the Vancian system based on my own experiences of it and discussing the psychic magic system (and, in fact, had referenced it in the quote you were replying to), the only way it really came across as relevant to the topic to me was as a critique of the power point system psionics currently uses. Which is pretty valid and not something I argued against, but also something that really wasn't relevant to what I was saying.
Your defense that it was simply addressing my statement that the Vancian magic system equals video games... Well, note what you said about most video games not using it, then note what I bold in the following quote from myself:
It feels more like playing a video game, and even then it doesn't manage anywhere near the feel of actually being a magic user as most video games do.
Given what I said there, it's pretty obvious I was admitting most video games don't use it, which made most of your reply completely irrelevant. It is also completely obvious, from the way I keep using feels and the general tone of my post, that I was posting an opinion the entire time. Which makes how you ended your initial reply to me interesting.
Here's the quote:
So to me, this argument kind of falls flat on its back.
And I notice that, in this latest post, you state again that it's a poor argument.
I was not aware that my opinions required concrete evidence to support them.
I have not challenged any of your opinions when it's obvious they are such, and continue not do so. It's because of the concepts of basic decency I was taught. But, I was also not aware I needed to put up warning signs that I am stating an opinion. Thank you for the object lesson in how wrong I was; I had foolishly assumed otherwise.
I made many assumptions about your post, and believe me when I say there is no way I can apologize for them without it coming across as tearing into you. But do not worry; I shall not make such assumptions again.
Well, I believe that's enough dealing with the excavation you are undertaking on this day, and I must actually get some sleep.
Please have a good night, and may tomorrow bring you happiness and peace to settle all strife that plagues you.