[PFS] Non-caster DD / Monk: Worthwhile?

[Jiggy]

So I had an interesting idea, and I'm curious what people think about its viability.

Suppose I decided to make a monk, specifically an oni-spawn tiefling since they get +STR/WIS and -CHA and can take Armor of the Pit to make up the AC gap of going STR-based instead of DEX-based. Stats as follows:

STR 18 (16+2)
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 09
WIS 16 (14+2)
CHA 05 (07-2)

Taking Armor of the Pit at 1st level and Dodge as his first bonus feat means he has 18 AC buck naked, which isn't a bad place to start. He also has alter self 1/day for a nice +2 STR pre-combat buff.

Now, suppose I take the qinggong archetype, and at 4th level I swap out Slow Fall for true strike. As per recent rulings on SLAs, I can now "cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation" so as long as I put in the skill ranks and learn Draconic, I can qualify for Dragon Disciple without a caster dip.

Yes, this means I'm giving up the caster progression side of DD, but I still end up with natural armor boosts, stat increases, a bigger hit die, a breath weapon, and so forth.

Oh, and I'd probably take Dragon Style feats. ;)

So basically, the question is this:
Is it worthwhile to skip all spellcasting progression in favor of getting the other benefits of DD a level earlier and on a less-MAD-than-a-monk/sorc chassis? Or am I losing too much compared to what I gain?

[Crosswind]

It is an interesting idea. The problem is really that multiclassing out of monk is sort of meh - monks, as a pure class, scale really well.

My big question here is: How are we going to be doing damage?

Let's look at the high point of this build, in my opinion, which is level 8: Monk 4, DD 4

You've probably got an amulet of mighty fists +1, and a +2 strength belt. So your strength is:

18+2(alter self) + 2 (levels) + 2(belt) + 4(DD) = 28, for +8 on all attacks from strength.

Which is nice, because you're attacking with Punch, Punch, Claw, Claw, Bite.

My main problems with this build are:

1.) Those 5 attacks are about all you're ever going to get. 3/4 BAB, and you can't flurry while adding natural attacks. A straight monk at this point would have almost as many attacks - 4, to your 5.

2.) Dragon Style only adds damage to unarmed strikes, not to natural attacks.

3.) You're trading slow fall for True Strike, which isn't that great, when every other monk will trade it for barkskin, which is awesome.

On the plus side:

1.) You get a lot of mileage out of that amulet of mighty fists.

2.) You're not MAD at all.

3.) You're using almost every bonus dragon disciple has

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Ultimately I think a straight, strength-based, dragon-styled oni-spawn monk will be significantly more powerful. But if you like the style, go for it.

-Cross

[Jiggy]

Your analysis seems entirely centered on the assumption that I would use natural attacks. However, the claws and bite are only available 3+CHAmod/day, which in this case comes out to... zero rounds/day.

Thus, I would be flurrying with actual unarmed strikes, and therefore gaining the Dragon Style damage bonus (also, 28 STR is +9, not +8).

So I'd be flurrying at +14/+14/+9 (assuming a +1 AoMF and no other modifiers) and each hit is worth 1d8+14 (again, assuming no other modifiers than the +1 AoMF). That doesn't seem so bad... does it?

[Crosswind]

Jiggy wrote:

Your analysis seems entirely centered on the assumption that I would use natural attacks. However, the claws and bite are only available 3+CHAmod/day, which in this case comes out to... zero rounds/day.

Thus, I would be flurrying with actual unarmed strikes, and therefore gaining the Dragon Style damage bonus (also, 28 STR is +9, not +8).

So I'd be flurrying at +14/+14/+9 (assuming a +1 AoMF and no other modifiers) and each hit is worth 1d8+14 (again, assuming no other modifiers than the +1 AoMF). That doesn't seem so bad... does it?

>_< Good point on the natural attacks not being available. So if you're not using natural attacks, literally all you're getting for 4 those 4 levels in dragon disciple is +2 attack, +2 AC, +3 damage and 3/4 BAB

Compare to going straight monk:

+1 AC (monk bonus), +1 damage (fist damage size increase), +3 AC (Barkskin instead of true strike from qinggong), an extra attack.

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You know, over that span of levels, it's not as uneven as I thought. It seems borderline crazy to take it JUST for the strength and natural armor, but dragon style makes good use of it.

-Cross

[Jiggy]

Crosswind wrote:

...literally all you're getting for 4 those 4 levels in dragon disciple is +2 attack, +2 AC, +3 damage and 3/4 BAB

Actually that's +3 AC, not +2, due to the bloodline (dragon resistances at 3rd). Also energy resist 5 to my element, +1 HP/level (after accounting for FCB loss), and a breath weapon (admittedly not great, but at least I can damage a swarm). And next level, I get blindsense. And the level after that, +2 CON.

Compare to going straight monk:

Quote:

+1 AC (monk bonus), +1 damage (fist damage size increase), +3 AC (Barkskin instead of true strike from qinggong), an extra attack.

So I guess I'm down 1 AC, except that I don't need to put it up first. And an extra attack (at -5) doesn't seem like that bad of a trade for +2/+3 on my best attacks.

Quote:

You know, over that span of levels, it's not as uneven as I thought. It seems borderline crazy to take it JUST for the strength and natural armor, but dragon style makes good use of it.

-Cross

Yeah, I was worried it'd be lame too, but it's actually looking pretty decent.

[Cazin]

Dragon Ferocity requires acrobatics 5 ranks and stunning fist. If you want only four levels as a monk, they better be as a master of many styles/quinggong. The many style kit lets you ignore the prerequisites of Dragon Ferocity. This would also let you pick up the crane riposte at higher levels and have both styles active at once.

[Jiggy]

Yeah, but then I lose flurry, and I'm not really interested in Crane Style for this guy anyway.

[Sah]

I would advise getting a Monk's Robe (I think thats what it's called, the one that gives you bonuses like you were a few levels higher as a monk?) quickly. I love the concept though, great idea.