I declare it good, and I'll steal it some day.
I always figured that some of this rocket tag talk is just bluster.
Or unimaginative GMs. If a GM really fights to keep a villain alive, there's not a lot of reason it shouldn't last five rounds or more.
I guess there's no point in contesting it unless I'm prepared to come with details, but that's been my experience anyway.
I don't know, MEL, it can really depend on the size and composition of the party. If you've got a large party with some PCs who can inflict 100 (or even 200-300) damage per round with touch attacks it can be pretty difficult to keep anything which catches their attention alive even long enough for it to even act. Concentrated fire is deadly.
There are certainly things one can do to make certain fights last longer (favorable terrain and enemy healers come to mind), but sometimes the extremes required can seem a little silly. We do have one DM who routinely tortures us with very high CR encounters. Sometimes those go on for several gaming sessions, but not everybody is a fan of them.
I always figured that some of this rocket tag talk is just bluster.
Or unimaginative GMs. If a GM really fights to keep a villain alive, there's not a lot of reason it shouldn't last five rounds or more.
I guess there's no point in contesting it unless I'm prepared to come with details, but that's been my experience anyway.
The problem is that you have to specifically design the enemy to last against the PCs, and that's just not something I'm interested in doing. I don't design encounters and I don't change the rules of the universe to make something a better fight.
Or you specifically encourage the pcs to keep power at a reasonable level, and the CR rules of a challenge around their level holds. Then, both sides don't have to ride the giant stat train for some fun.
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It would be nice if the rules kept power at a reasonable level. I think that they do a decent job in most areas, but there are some exceptions.
I play in a Thursday group and a Sunday group. My Thursday group is lucky if combat lasts for less than 20 turns, granted we are L11s commonly fighting APL+4 encounters. I play the healtard and commonly take over 150 damage per combat through Life Link and aoes.
Or you specifically encourage the pcs to keep power at a reasonable level, and the CR rules of a challenge around their level holds. Then, both sides don't have to ride the giant stat train for some fun.
:rolleyes:
3-4 rounds combats are what the game expects to happen, as is "Single bosses get rocked". That's the way the game is built.
Unless your player purposefully gimp themselves, this is going to happen.
4 on 1 is not in favor of the 1, no matter what the power level of the party is anyway, unless you're throwing APL+8 enemies or some s$+# at them.
Incorrect.
Combat goes according to playing builds, their actions and the foes they face.
As in, if a defensive monk pc teams up with other defensive characters, combats go a lot longer (and they are therefore riskier, since defence is harder to pull off than offense).
It isn't about gimping, it is about playing the characters you want to play. A person wanting to play a swashbuckler and win fights over about six to seven rounds may take down the damage for other results (pushing dex, mixing rogue with fighter, choose to go buckler and a sword suitable for duelling). As an example, I made a feinting combat rogue with a bastard sword (just one, not two). All feats and focus went to either bluff, feinting and keeping the character alive through defensive options. Yes, they have a d10 and yes they have some sneak attack die, but the build was mainly about surviving hits and getting a sneak attack in each round. Making it quite different to a damage focused two weapon fighting rogue.
If a group or player gets tired of quick combats, they can avoid high damage or kill effects and focus on other things.
Lastly, rolling your eyes at someone you are talking to, is a rude thing to do. Are you an adolescent? Or do builds other than what you use make you roll your eyes?
Loot and fun people, sometimes you want the fun fights to last longer, not be shorter.
Interesting seems most of you find 4 rounds about the norm
I was just wondering what's the average size of your party
Incorrect.
Combat goes according to playing builds, their actions and the foes they face.
As in, if a defensive monk pc teams up with other defensive characters, combats go a lot longer (and they are therefore riskier, since defence is harder to pull off than offense).
They're not riskier, they just last longer.
Defense is not harder to pull off it's just less effective in the long run, since if you can't KILL your opponent (or hurt them enough that they flee or surrender in some cases), the combat will not end.
It isn't about gimping, it is about playing the characters you want to play. A person wanting to play a swashbuckler and win fights over about six to seven rounds may take down the damage for other results (pushing dex, mixing rogue with fighter, choose to go buckler and a sword suitable for duelling). As an example, I made a feinting combat rogue with a bastard sword (just one, not two). All feats and focus went to either bluff, feinting and keeping the character alive through defensive options. Yes, they have a d10 and yes they have some sneak attack die, but the build was mainly about surviving hits and getting a sneak attack in each round. Making it quite different to a damage focused two weapon fighting rogue.
And you can make a build like this without sacrificing a lot of effectiveness. That's what optimizing IS.
As well, "staying alive and making one attack a round" IS gimping yourself when "staying alive and making MULTIPLE attacks per round" is an option that's quite possible to pull off without nuking your concept.
It's only "quite different from a damage focused Rogue" in that you're not acting to the best of your character's ability.
Lastly, rolling your eyes at someone you are talking to, is a rude thing to do.
So is condescendingly telling someone that if they're combats last "only" 4 rounds they're unreasonably powerful and need to stop "riding the giant stat train".
Kjaerulff
Interesting seems most of you find 4 rounds about the norm
I was just wondering what's the average size of your party
4-5.
Combats usually last LONGER with larger parties since the GM will beef up the encounters.
Interesting seems most of you find 4 rounds about the norm
I was just wondering what's the average size of your party
Most games I've been in have been 4-5 PCs, usually with at least one PC having an animal companion, eidolon or some other NPC/PC involved.
On another thread a few players have said that combat normaly only last 4 rounds or so and i was wondering if thats the norm for other groups
As it seems a bit to quick to me
4 rounds +/- CR difference between encounter and your level.
In comparison:
one CR 8 vs a Level 4 party: should take at least 8 rounds (CR is 4 above level 4).
3 CR 4's: maybe 5-6 rounds (same each is same as level but multiple of them they add partly).
On another thread a few players have said that combat normaly only last 4 rounds or so and i was wondering if thats the norm for other groups
As it seems a bit to quick to me4 rounds +/- CR difference between encounter and your level.
In comparison:
one CR 8 vs a Level 4 party: should take at least 8 rounds (CR is 4 above level 4).3 CR 4's: maybe 5-6 rounds (same each is same as level but multiple of them they add partly).
I honestly have no idea how you came up with this math.
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My games tend to be heavier than usual on the strategy end, and correspondingly lighter on the tactical end. Which means that, after very low levels, most of the adventure consists of the PCs and the bad guys trying to set each other up. When the ball finally drops, combat is quick, brutal, and to the point. If the PCs managed to outmaneuver the BBEG (catch him with unprepared, without his guards, etc.), he goes down like a chump. If they fail, TPK or fleeing PCs. In one case, there was a big gorgeous godawful mess that ended with some PCs bleeding to death, most of the bad guys except the BBEG dead, and the BBEG's plans in shambles (and his headquarters in ashes).
So please spare me the stuff about "short fights mean a softy DM" or "short fights mean an unimaginative DM." Sometimes short fights mean an extremely hard-line DM who pushes things to their logical endpoints, and experienced players who don't mind that level of intensity.
Interesting seems most of you find 4 rounds about the norm
I was just wondering what's the average size of your party
The majority of games that I've run over the years have had two PCs.
I'm currently running a game with 5 and PCing in one as well, though, and it's still about the same speed.
I always figured that some of this rocket tag talk is just bluster.
In my 3.5 epic campaign, it certainly did occur. When you can do maximized, empowered, twinned Ranged Touch attack spells, getting first hit was critical.
But currently, in our three PF games, most encounters 5-6 rounds, with the Boss battle often longer.
I honestly have no idea how you came up with this math.On another thread a few players have said that combat normaly only last 4 rounds or so and i was wondering if thats the norm for other groups
As it seems a bit to quick to me4 rounds +/- CR difference between encounter and your level.
In comparison:
one CR 8 vs a Level 4 party: should take at least 8 rounds (CR is 4 above level 4).3 CR 4's: maybe 5-6 rounds (same each is same as level but multiple of them they add partly).
Good because I like to keep that part secret. :P
Good because I like to keep that part secret. :PI honestly have no idea how you came up with this math.On another thread a few players have said that combat normaly only last 4 rounds or so and i was wondering if thats the norm for other groups
As it seems a bit to quick to me4 rounds +/- CR difference between encounter and your level.
In comparison:
one CR 8 vs a Level 4 party: should take at least 8 rounds (CR is 4 above level 4).3 CR 4's: maybe 5-6 rounds (same each is same as level but multiple of them they add partly).
C'mon! That's teasing! Tell us! Tell us!
I honestly have no idea how you came up with this math.On another thread a few players have said that combat normaly only last 4 rounds or so and i was wondering if thats the norm for other groups
As it seems a bit to quick to me4 rounds +/- CR difference between encounter and your level.
In comparison:
one CR 8 vs a Level 4 party: should take at least 8 rounds (CR is 4 above level 4).3 CR 4's: maybe 5-6 rounds (same each is same as level but multiple of them they add partly).
Have to agree there. In my experience, higher CR encounters actually go a bit faster, since the party pulls out all the stops against tougher opponents, who are themselves much more dangerous. Low CR-encounters, by contrast, have the party using as few resources as possible so they cac save them for tougher foes.
Been thinking on this for the last few game sessions, and decided to keep track. With a mixed party (Sorc, Cleric, Fighter, Ranger, & Fighter/Rogue all L7) an equal CR fight lasted 4-7 rounds with 2 or less creatures, 5-10 rounds with 3 or more, and a solo 4+ rounds.
Surprise by either side adds about +1/-1 to those totals essentially.
Bigger areas usually increased those numbers by about half again.
Edit: All of these suppose a restraint to be able to continue exploration beyond the combat and not "use it if you got it!" mentality.