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Right, but they don't supersede the rules for melee attacks.
Exactly. Like I said, if you were in the 'jazz hands' crowd, then the person using this would have to find a way to reach the enemy.
Hence Whip or using Snap Shot in order to pull it off while not threatening. Or being under some effect that doesn't make you flatfooted or unaware of the attack, but doesn't allow you to threaten normally.
Basically in 99.99999999999999999999999999999999999% of the time, you will be threatening the enemy in your reach.
And in a bizarrely odd twist Combat Patrol Doesn't work with Crane style because no one provokes.
Right, but they don't supersede the rules for melee attacks.Exactly. Like I said, if you were in the 'jazz hands' crowd, then the person using this would have to find a way to reach the enemy.
No, actually, regardless of how you personally imagine the combat happening the rules work precisely the same. You can picture it happening in a box with a fox for all I care, you still can't make attacks of opportunity against enemies outside your reach.
And with your 99.999999999999999999999999999999% figure you mean, literally, every other conceivable scenario EXCEPT this one. There are no other exceptions.
Your noted "twist" with Combat Patrol precisely illustrates my point as to why they used the language "make" as opposed to "provoke" because someone provoking an AoO provokes from all threatening parties, which they didn't want. They only wanted the person with Crane Riposte to be able to make that attack.
I am, however, absolutely secure in my interpretation that the designers didn't want Crane Riposte to enable attacks 30 feet away, or in any other manner outside the character's normal ability to make melee attacks.
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Right, but they don't supersede the rules for melee attacks.Exactly. Like I said, if you were in the 'jazz hands' crowd, then the person using this would have to find a way to reach the enemy.No, actually, regardless of how you personally imagine the combat happening the rules work precisely the same. You can picture it happening in a box with a fox for all I care, you still can't make attacks of opportunity against enemies outside your reach.
And with your 99.999999999999999999999999999999% figure you mean, literally, every other conceivable scenario EXCEPT this one. There are no other exceptions.
Your noted "twist" with Combat Patrol precisely illustrates my point as to why they used the language "make" as opposed to "provoke" because someone provoking an AoO provokes from all threatening parties, which they didn't want. They only wanted the person with Crane Riposte to be able to make that attack.
I am, however, absolutely secure in my interpretation that the designers didn't want Crane Riposte to enable attacks 30 feet away, or in any other manner outside the character's normal ability to make melee attacks.
You are not listening to the words I'm saying. Not at all.
By Jazz hands, I mean the non-dynamic crowd that is more focused on the combat rather than the rule of cool. As in, the RoC people would say "Okay you deflect the melee attack, make an AoO, but these are your options because you are out of range."
I've provided 3 scenarios that it could happen by precisely using all the RAW.
1) Whip
2) Snap Shot
3) Effect that makes you unable to threaten, but doesn't make you unable to make attacks, make you flatfooted, makes your hands unfree, or make you unaware of the attack.
My noted twist? I didn't twist anything.
Spell Breaker
Vicious Stomp
Paired Opportunists
Provoke. But only from you.
an Attack of OpportunityAn attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and most characters can only make one per round. You don't have to make an attack of opportunity if you don't want to. You make your attack of opportunity at your normal attack bonus, even if you've already attacked in the round.
An attack of opportunity "interrupts" the normal flow of actions in the round. If an attack of opportunity is provoked, immediately resolve the attack of opportunity, then
You're right, that's all that's said about MAKING an attack of opportunity. However, that paragraph falls under a larger heading "Attacks of Opportunity." I'm going to assume your agreement at this point that rules language under a subheading refers to and continues to work with the rest of the rules in the heading, right?
So this part might be relevant:
Sometimes a combatant in a melee lets her guard down or takes a reckless action. In this case, combatants near her can take advantage of her lapse in defense to attack her for free. These free attacks are called attacks of opportunity. See the Attacks of Opportunity diagram for an example of how they work.
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
Reach Weapons: Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten more squares than a typical creature. In addition, most creatures larger than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more.
Provoking an Attack of Opportunity: Two kinds of actions can provoke attacks of opportunity: moving out of a threatened square and performing certain actions within a threatened square.
Moving: Moving out of a threatened square usually provokes attacks of opportunity from threatening opponents. There are two common methods of avoiding such an attack—the 5-foot step and the withdraw action.
Performing a Distracting Act: Some actions, when performed in a threatened square, provoke attacks of opportunity as you divert your attention from the battle. Table: Actions in Combat notes many of the actions that provoke attacks of opportunity.
Remember that even actions that normally provoke attacks of opportunity may have exceptions to this rule.
So your assertion that making AoOs has nothing to do with threatened squares can be dismissed out of hand, since it is the first subheading and thus the most important thing to consider when determining how to perform an attack of opportunity.
I guess my question to you is, if you feel that this feat allows players to circumvent/allows an exception to normal rules for Attacks of Opportunity (that you can only make attacks of opportunity against creatures occupying squares you can reach) because it uses the language "make an attack of opportunity", does it also allow you to make attacks of opportunity you normally would be unable to? For example, against creatures with cover or concealment, when you're stunned or flat-footed, when you are out of AoOs for the round?
If not, why not? The way I understand, your interpretation is that it does an end-around normal rules by basically saying "go ahead, take that AoO, you've earned it," so why wouldn't it also apply in the above situations?
You are not listening to the words I'm saying. Not at all.
By Jazz hands, I mean the non-dynamic crowd that is more focused on the combat rather than the rule of cool. As in, the RoC people would say "Okay you deflect the melee attack, make an AoO, but these are your options because you are out of range."
I've provided 3 scenarios that it could happen by precisely using all the RAW.
1) Whip
2) Snap Shot
3) Effect that makes you unable to threaten, but doesn't make you unable to make attacks, make you flatfooted, makes your hands unfree, or make you unaware of the attack.My noted twist? I didn't twist anything.
I am listening to you, but you continue to contradict yourself and cherry pick rules which don't apply to try to make something which is fairly innocuous into utterly shattering the game as we know it.
By jazz-hands, or whatever else, you're talking about specific ways in which people envision the scenario and thereby rationalize how the rules work. What I'm saying is rationalization isn't needed: the rules are clear.
First off, what possible examples can you provide of your "#3"? I can think of none. You ONLY threaten squares into which you can make melee attacks, as per the definition of threaten.
As for your other two examples, congratulations, you've found two exceptions to the rules about attacking/threatening. They are specific examples, and don't apply in the case of Crane Riposte (unless you also had Snap Shot or had a Whip). Because there is an exception to the rules in one feat or a piece of gear, does not mean that exception applies to all combat in other scenarios. Specific trumps general, but only when it applies.
In the case of Spell Breaker--that's what I'm talking about. That's ANOTHER specific example of a feat allowing you to make attacks of opportunity for something that others can't. I'm not sure how that proves anything at all, other than that there are, indeed, as we've all conceded, specific examples that trump general rules. But IN those situations, the exceptions are spelled out. Nowhere in Crane Riposte does it say "even if you normally couldn't attack that target." If it did none of us would be having this debate.
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No, my assertion of making an AoO has nothing to do with threatened squares can not be dismissed out of hand.
Provoke is simply:
If the enemy does /this/ in your threaten area, you may make an attack of opportunity.
Crane Ripost though is..
if you do /this/ you may make an AoO against the target you did /this/ to.
For example, against creatures with cover or concealment, when you're stunned or flat-footed, when you are out of AoOs for the round?
Nope. You can't use this feat do those.
Ah-ha! you might say. However..
but you must be aware of it and not flat-footed.
You cannot use crane wing while stunned, flatfooted, or unaware of the attack. Thus you cannot use crane ripost.
Also, Concealment does not make someone unable to provoke AoO.
Lastly, When you are out - No. In making an AoO, it is still a single AoO.
Another thing to keep in mind. You keep harping on the differences in language between "provoking" and making an attack. What you have to realize is that provoking isn't rules language, it's layperson language. Which means that it doesn't have a specific rules definition. And that language is far from universal.
In fact, in various places in the combat rules, many different words and terms are used to denote who can make an attack of opportunity and when. For example:
Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl. A crawling character is considered prone and must take a move action to stand up, provoking an attack of opportunity.
Emphasis mine.
And moreYou can cast a quickened spell (see the Quicken Spell feat), or any spell whose casting time is designated as a free or swift action, as a swift action. Only one such spell can be cast in any round, and such spells don't count toward your normal limit of one spell per round. Casting a spell as a swift action doesn't incur an attack of opportunity.
Well, since no one knows what incurring an attack of opportunity means (ans since we're being super lawyer-ey) that text is meaningless. It also doesn't, therefore, contradict the regular rule that casting a spell PROVOKES an attack of opportunity. Ergo quickened spells still provoke AoOs. Right?
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As for your other two examples, congratulations, you've found two exceptions to the rules about attacking/threatening. They are specific examples, and don't apply in the case of Crane Riposte (unless you also had Snap Shot or had a Whip). Because there is an exception to the rules in one feat or a piece of gear, does not mean that exception applies to all combat in other scenarios. Specific trumps general, but only when it applies.
In the case of Spell Breaker--that's what I'm talking about. That's ANOTHER specific example of a feat allowing you to make attacks of opportunity for something that others can't. I'm not sure how that proves anything at...
I'm still looking for 3 myself actually. It could be there, but I've yet to actually find it. The likely hood of 3 going off is the least likely.
Spell breaker, you said Crane Ripost says "Make" instead of "Provoke" because when someone "Provokes" it "Provokes" everyone. Except Spell Breaker has "From you."
As does Paired Opportunists and Vicious Stomp. Meanwhile, the language of "Make an attack" only shows up in Snake Fang and Crane Ripost. Both of which require the enemy to make a melee attack against you.
Also, Concealment does not make someone unable to provoke AoO.
You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.
If someone has total concealment, to you, you cannot make an attack of opportunity against them.
Normally.
Would Crane Wing allow them to? Since it's, like, super magic and lets you break every other rule in the game?
Spell breaker, you said Crane Ripost says "Make" instead of "Provoke" because when someone "Provokes" it "Provokes" everyone. Except Spell Breaker has "From you."
*most patronizing voice possible*
Yes, Espy, that's what's called an exception to the rules.Exceptions that apply in one case don't apply in all others, that's what makes them exceptions.
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Another thing to keep in mind. You keep harping on the differences in language between "provoking" and making an attack. What you have to realize is that provoking isn't rules language, it's layperson language. Which means that it doesn't have a specific rules definition. And that language is far from universal.
In fact, in various places in the combat rules, many different words and terms are used to denote who can make an attack of opportunity and when. For example:
Crawling: You can crawl 5 feet as a move action. Crawling incurs attacks of opportunity from any attackers who threaten you at any point of your crawl. A crawling character is considered prone and must take a move action to stand up, provoking an attack of opportunity.Emphasis mine.
And more
You can cast a quickened spell (see the Quicken Spell feat), or any spell whose casting time is designated as a free or swift action, as a swift action. Only one such spell can be cast in any round, and such spells don't count toward your normal limit of one spell per round. Casting a spell as a swift action doesn't incur an attack of opportunity.Well, since no one knows what incurring an attack of opportunity means (ans since we're being super lawyer-ey) that text is meaningless. It also doesn't, therefore, contradict the regular rule that casting a spell PROVOKES an attack of opportunity. Ergo quickened spells still provoke AoOs. Right?
Sure, Quickened spells still provoke. But then because it doesn't incure, Which is to be subject to as a result of one's own actions, AoO, the AoO cannot be made.
For simplification, we just simply say it doesn't provoke.
Is there a rule to make a save to disbelieve a thread argument? This has to be an illusion of some sort...
If it is, it has suckered me!
Next up: guy who insist he can take actions while dead since the rules don't forbid it.|
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Also, Concealment does not make someone unable to provoke AoO.You can't execute an attack of opportunity against an opponent with total concealment, even if you know what square or squares the opponent occupies.If someone has total concealment, to you, you cannot make an attack of opportunity against them.
Normally.
Would Crane Wing allow them to? Since it's, like, super magic and lets you break every other rule in the game?
Honestly, you're grasping at straws here.
You cannot use Crane Wing against attacks you are unaware of. So that is first and foremost. Are you aware of the attack from the guy who just attacked you with total concealment? No? Darn. Guess you can't use Crane wing. Guess you can't use Crane Ripost.
Even if you could, Total Concealment says "You cannot." Therefor you cannot.
Sure, Quickened spells still provoke. But then because it doesn't incure, Which is to be subject to as a result of one's own actions, AoO, the AoO cannot be made.
For simplification, we just simply say it doesn't provoke.
No, its a matter of rules text not being a programming language. I is still English and has a bit of imprecision. ESPECIALLY stuff that has been copypasta-ed from an SRD written 14 years ago.
Show me where it says you can't take actions if you are dead.
Honestly, you're grasping at straws here.
You cannot use Crane Wing against attacks you are unaware of. So that is first and foremost. Are you aware of the attack from the guy who just attacked you with total concealment? No? Darn. Guess you can't use Crane wing. Guess you can't use Crane Ripost.
Even if you could, Total Concealment says "You cannot." Therefor you cannot.
Right. The rules for AoO say you can make a melee attack if one is provoked. The rules for melee attacks say you can only attack squares within your reach.
Therefore you can't make an AoO against the guy across the room whom you cannot reach, simply because you took Crane Riposte.
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Honestly, you're grasping at straws here.
You cannot use Crane Wing against attacks you are unaware of. So that is first and foremost. Are you aware of the attack from the guy who just attacked you with total concealment? No? Darn. Guess you can't use Crane wing. Guess you can't use Crane Ripost.
Even if you could, Total Concealment says "You cannot." Therefor you cannot.
Right. The rules for AoO say you can make a melee attack if one is provoked. The rules for melee attacks say you can only attack squares within your reach.
Therefore you can't make an AoO against the guy across the room whom you cannot reach, simply because you took Crane Riposte.
And that is what I've been saying. You need A whip or Snap Shot to do it without a gm fiat ruling.
And now you've pretty much ran out of argument.
So to recap
With Crane Ripost/Snake Fang you 'could' make AoO against enemies, provided you have the ability to make the attack against them, by following all the normal rules of attacking. However you don't have to threaten them, due to these two feats giving you a new way of making AoO that skips the need for the enemy to provoke an AoO from you.
You cannot use the AoO against an enemy that is under an effect that says "You Cannot execute the AoO" such as total concealment.
A whip could be used to attack enemies not in your threatened area, as could Snap Shot (Combat) {Not the Rogue talent} though the amount of focus needed to actually do this is rather insane, thus often making so you don't.
You could rule that the one using Crane Style could attack the limb or weapon if you wanted to.
No, your entire argument is "its magic and cuz I say so".
In other words, it's not an argument, it's not supported by rules text whatsoever.
Crane Riposte isn't freaking magic. It doesn't make your arms 30 feet long. It has been established that you can't make attacks of opportunity against creatures outside your reach.
Notice I didn't say threaten. Threaten is a term that is TYPICALLY defined by what squares you can attack, though as you've pointed out (whip) there are exceptions.
Nonetheless, an attack of opportunity is a Melee Attack. Melee Attacks can only be made against creatures within your reach. Crane Riposte does not state a specific exception to this rule, and thus it is not exempted from the general rule of only being able to attack things within your reach.
Further silly questions: In the aforementioned example where you are making a Crane Riposte to someone across the room, that is indeed an attack of opportunity correct? Which means you could do anything you could normally do on an AoO, right? Like trip.
What if you had the Grab ability, and then made a grapple check immediately following the AoO. Would the grappled party be pulled 30 feet through the air? Don't you think that's a bit silly?
Edit: but I'm done here. The debate has devolved into basically.
Me: *quotes relevant rules text, makes cogent argument*
Espy: JAZZ HANDS!
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No, your entire argument is "its magic and cuz I say so".
In other words, it's not an argument, it's not supported by rules text whatsoever.Crane Riposte isn't freaking magic. It doesn't make your arms 30 feet long. It has been established that you can't make attacks of opportunity against creatures outside your reach.
Notice I didn't say threaten. Threaten is a term that is TYPICALLY defined by what squares you can attack, though as you've pointed out (whip) there are exceptions.
Nonetheless, an attack of opportunity is a Melee Attack. Melee Attacks can only be made against creatures within your reach. Crane Riposte does not state a specific exception to this rule, and thus it is not exempted from the general rule of only being able to attack things within your reach.
Further silly questions: In the aforementioned example where you are making a Crane Riposte to someone across the room, that is indeed an attack of opportunity correct? Which means you could do anything you could normally do on an AoO, right? Like trip.
What if you had the Grab ability, and then made a grapple check immediately following the AoO. Would the grappled party be pulled 30 feet through the air? Don't you think that's a bit silly?
*Headdesks*
How many times do I have to say it? I repeated over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again.. You can't make a melee attack against someone not in your melee reach.
Then you sit there and start screaming on and on about how I'm so wrong, that I think Crane Ripost is some super magical feat that allows you to go back into time, punch the guys grandma and kill him in the future or some crazy such as that.
The ONLY time I suggest you can is if the DM ruled that you could, by attacking the LIMB OR WEAPON THAT MADE THE MELEE ATTACK. Cause while your limbs are not 30 feet long SOMEBODY'S LIMBS OBVIOUSLY ARE. Because they /just/ made the 30 foot long melee attack.
WHAT IF THEY had the grab ability then made a grapple check immediatly following? Would the grappled party then be pulled 30 feet through the air?
That is the second thing you have to realize. SOMEONE ELSE already did everything you think is being too silly.
The thing is that I have said MANY MANY MANY times that you can't make a melee attack against something not in your reach.
Look, I'm not sure what *%&! is going on here, but do we really need to get a Dev to verify how this works? They're going to laugh at us if we try to ask, because some people are too stubborn to see when they're wrong.
In order for someone with Crane Riposte to be able to make the AoO after they deflect they must be able to make an AoO. Which means not having made an AoO before (because you are limited one per round without Combat Reflexes) and you must be able to reach the enemy with your attack. Since Crane Wing requires a free hand you could only do this with one handed weapons. A medium monk using unarmed strikes will only threaten 5ft away. He can use Crane Wing once a round to avoid an attack, but if the enemy is using a reach weapon against the monk he can't make the AoO against his attacker that would normally be provided by Crane Riposte.
Any other assertion is proposterious.
The counter argument is either trolling or being purposefully obtuse.
Look, I'm not sure what *%&! is going on here, but do we really need to get a Dev to verify how this works? They're going to laugh at us if we try to ask, because some people are too stubborn to see when they're wrong.
In order for someone with Crane Riposte to be able to make the AoO after they deflect they must be able to make an AoO. Which means not having made an AoO before (because you are limited one per round without Combat Reflexes) and you must be able to reach the enemy with your attack. Since Crane Wing requires a free hand you could only do this with one handed weapons. A medium monk using unarmed strikes will only threaten 5ft away. He can use Crane Wing once a round to avoid an attack, but if the enemy is using a reach weapon against the monk he can't make the AoO against his attacker that would normally be provided by Crane Riposte.
Any other assertion is proposterious.
The counter argument is either trolling or being purposefully obtuse.
Similarly, the language of the feat doesn't mean you can attack the attacker's limbs or weapon. It'd be an allowable houserule for a lot of people, I think. But it in no way appears to be RAW.
As far as making ranged attacks with something like the Snap Shot chain, yes those could apply. But again, those attacks are done by way of feats which create exceptions to the ordinary rule. Plus, you can still only make AoO with Snap Shot/Improved Whip Mastery within a specified threatened area.
So again, you'd need to be able to threaten to make that AoO.
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Look, I'm not sure what *%&! is going on here, but do we really need to get a Dev to verify how this works? They're going to laugh at us if we try to ask, because some people are too stubborn to see when they're wrong.
In order for someone with Crane Riposte to be able to make the AoO after they deflect they must be able to make an AoO. Which means not having made an AoO before (because you are limited one per round without Combat Reflexes) and you must be able to reach the enemy with your attack. Since Crane Wing requires a free hand you could only do this with one handed weapons. A medium monk using unarmed strikes will only threaten 5ft away. He can use Crane Wing once a round to avoid an attack, but if the enemy is using a reach weapon against the monk he can't make the AoO against his attacker that would normally be provided by Crane Riposte.
Any other assertion is proposterious.
The counter argument is either trolling or being purposefully obtuse.
Yes. Actually, nothing you said is false.
The only thing I'm saying is it doesn't have to be in your threatened area. A situation that does not happen often, in fact almost impossible to make since you still have to reach the enemy with your AoO
Look, I'm not sure what *%&! is going on here, but do we really need to get a Dev to verify how this works? They're going to laugh at us if we try to ask, because some people are too stubborn to see when they're wrong.
In order for someone with Crane Riposte to be able to make the AoO after they deflect they must be able to make an AoO. Which means not having made an AoO before (because you are limited one per round without Combat Reflexes) and you must be able to reach the enemy with your attack. Since Crane Wing requires a free hand you could only do this with one handed weapons. A medium monk using unarmed strikes will only threaten 5ft away. He can use Crane Wing once a round to avoid an attack, but if the enemy is using a reach weapon against the monk he can't make the AoO against his attacker that would normally be provided by Crane Riposte.
Any other assertion is proposterious.
The counter argument is either trolling or being purposefully obtuse.
Yes. Actually, nothing you said is false.
The only thing I'm saying is it doesn't have to be in your threatened area. A situation that does not happen often, in fact almost impossible to make since you still have to reach the enemy with your AoO
I'm not trying to be a pest, but could you show me an example of when you can make an AoO outside of your threatened area that would work with this feat? Snap Shot, which you've mentioned (and the upgraded versions), give you a specific threatened area in which to make any AoO. Improved Whip Mastery gives you a specific threatened area in which to make any AoO. Combat Patrol also increases your threatened area for the purpose of making AoO.
So what examples are there of times you can make an AoO outside of your threatened area?
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I have a player who uses the feat tree for Crane Style. He has the Crane Riposte feat, and uses it quite frequently. We recently got into a disagreement about whether or not he can make an attack of opportunity against a foe that had it's attack blocked by crane wing if the foe is using reach. I believe that the player cannot make an attack on the opponent because the opponent is out of the player's reach. The player's weapon has no reach and he has no reach granting abilities. Therefore the player should not be able to attack. That is my line of thinking. But when we checked the rule on the feat itself it says nothing about not being able to attack creatures out of reach. Plus he claims the attack would be made immediately when the creature is in range upon attacking him. I would just like some second opinions on which way to lean with this one.
He can AoO with whatever he likes, however, the opponent does have to be in reach. That tends to be a general rule ;) I guess he could retort with shuriken if he has them on him; or a reach weapon.
There is a Feat somewhere that allows him to counterattack when someone uses a reach weapon, hitting their arms as they reach out to hit you. I can't remember the name, but in combination it seems like that would work for him.
I have a player who uses the feat tree for Crane Style. He has the Crane Riposte feat, and uses it quite frequently. We recently got into a disagreement about whether or not he can make an attack of opportunity against a foe that had it's attack blocked by crane wing if the foe is using reach. I believe that the player cannot make an attack on the opponent because the opponent is out of the player's reach. The player's weapon has no reach and he has no reach granting abilities. Therefore the player should not be able to attack. That is my line of thinking. But when we checked the rule on the feat itself it says nothing about not being able to attack creatures out of reach. Plus he claims the attack would be made immediately when the creature is in range upon attacking him. I would just like some second opinions on which way to lean with this one.He can AoO with whatever he likes, however, the opponent does have to be in reach. That tends to be a general rule ;) I guess he could retort with shuriken if he has them on him; or a reach weapon.
There is a Feat somewhere that allows him to counterattack when someone uses a reach weapon, hitting their arms as they reach out to hit you. I can't remember the name, but in combination it seems like that would work for him.
Strike Back. By RAW though, that only allows readied actions to attack someone attacking you with reach, not AoO. I wouldn't hate a houserule on that, though (assuming it was done in conjunction with Crane Wing/Riposte).
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Its a horrible feat though.. because it took away something many many many fighters have been using for years to fight things like Hydras.
Anycase, a user of the Crane Style(or snake fang)+snap shot or simply using a whip can use the AoO as long at the target is within reach.
So with a shuriken, that is withing 5x of the throwing distance of the shuriken, or with the whip in 15.
Do note, that chances are using a whip in this manner will provoke another AoO from the foe, since you are most likely in his threatened reach.
Also note that the ability to attack something not in your threatened area as an AoO is so incredibly rare, it would be nearly impossible to do it accidentally.
Another one is order of the staff from Cavalier, they could make an AoO outside the threaten reach, however they have to be adjacent to the enemy, making it only possible with a whip. Though this will provoke, obviously. Actually I take that back.. Whips cannot attack Adjacent enemies.
Also, being flatfooted doesn't mean you don't threaten. Just means you cannot take AoO. Combat reflexes allows you to take one though.
If you have Improved Whip Mastery (which lets you threaten up with a whip up to your natural reach +5' - so 10' for most characters), you have Whip Mastery, which means you do not provoke AoO when attacking with a whip.
Snap Shot only allows you to threaten 5' with a ranged weapon (and you need to have Weapon Focus with that weapon first). With Improved Snap Shot, you can threaten out to 15' with a ranged weapon.
And you still couldn't make an AoO with a shuriken at 5x throwing distance. You could make an attack of opportunity with a shuriken at 15', if you have Weapon Focus (Shuriken), Point Blank Shot, Rapid Shot, Snap Shot, and Improved Snap Shot, in addition to Crane Style, Crane Wing, and Crane Riposte.
Snake Fang lets you make AoO with Unarmed Strikes, provided your attacker misses you. Absent some other ability, I do not believe Snake Fang would let you make an AoO with a ranged weapon. Am I forgetting about something that lets a PC use a Shuriken in place of an UAS?
Whips can attack adjacent foes.
In addition, unlike most other weapons with reach, you can use it against foes anywhere within your reach (including adjacent foes).
Synchronized Smash (Ex)
At 15th level, the cavalier can utilize the power of his spellcasting allies to make devastating attacks against the allies' targets. If the cavalier is adjacent to an enemy affected by a targeted or area spell or spell-like ability cast by one of the cavalier's allies, he can make an immediate attack of opportunity against the affected creature. If the cavalier is also affected by the spell (such as by being caught in the area of the same fireball spell), during the rest of that round he automatically confirms any critical hits made against the affected creature while using this ability.
You can make an AoO by an enemy affected by an AoE or targeted spell cast by one of your allies, as long as you are adjacent to that enemy.
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Specific Rules Language:
Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away.Melee Attacks: With a normal melee weapon, you can strike any opponent within 5 feet. (Opponents within 5 feet are considered adjacent to you.) Some melee weapons have reach, as indicated in their descriptions.Natural Attacks: Attacks made with natural weapons, such as claws and bites, are melee attacks that can be made against any creature within your reach (usually 5 feet).Show me the language in Crane Riposte that specifically excepts the AoO provided by this feat from these ordinary rules.
EDIT: Also, there's this:
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.That bolded sentence pretty clearly synthesizes the intent behind the whole AoO section: You must threaten a square to make an AoO. If you don't threaten, you can't make an AoO.
So again, show me the language that excepts the AoO from Crane Riposte from following these rules.
I'll just post this again, since you never really provided me with any citations that would allow a person to make AoO outside of their threatened area. You can't attack outside of your threatened area, aside from ranged attacks, and you can't make attacks of opportunity with ranged attacks absent specific feats or abilities which allow you to do so. And the only ones of which I am aware that allow you to do so have very specific limit on the threatened area.
How is it possible that you can use a shuriken to make an AoO out to 50', simply because of Crane Riposte, when an entire feat line, with all its prereqs (a feat line dedicated to making AoO with ranged weapons), limits you to making AoO out to 15'?
Its a horrible feat though.. because it took away something many many many fighters have been using for years to fight things like Hydras.
It didn't take anything away from fighters because the rules have always stated that you can only attack enemies within your reach.
I will say, however, that being able to strike at the limbs of creatures was a commonly held misapprehension of the 3.0/3.5 rule set.
Again, threatened area is only for provoking, not for making them.
I'm sorry, but no. Didn't you JUST finish ranting about how I keep misunderstanding you and you've always said you have to be able to reach something to attack it?
Your threatened area is merely all the squares into which you can reach with a melee weapon. That's how threaten is defined for crying out loud!
In other words, "within reach" and "threatened area" are the same thing. You threaten everything you can reach in melee (barring exceptions like whip) because that's precisely how threaten is defined.
You can only make attacks of opportunity against creatures you can reach. In other words, which you threaten. Reach being a function of the reach combat statistic, which is typically 5 feet in any direction for a medium creature. If a huge creature attacks you with Crane Riposte, and you only have 5 foot reach, you cannot attack him.
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How is it possible that you can use a shuriken to make an AoO out to 50', simply because of Crane Riposte, when an entire feat line, with all its prereqs (a feat line dedicated to making AoO with ranged weapons), limits you to making AoO out to 15'?
The entire feat chain does not limit you to only making AoO out ot 15'.
It gives you 15 feet of threatened area, to allow enemies to provoke AoO from you within that 15. And Provoking is not the same thing as making them. Provoking is an event that causes you to be allowed to make one, normally, but Crane Ripost is another event that allows one to make an AoO.
How is it possible that you can use a shuriken to make an AoO out to 50', simply because of Crane Riposte, when an entire feat line, with all its prereqs (a feat line dedicated to making AoO with ranged weapons), limits you to making AoO out to 15'?The entire feat chain does not limit you to only making AoO out ot 15'.
Yes, it does.
But okay, give me a situation in which you can make an attack of opportunity against someone outside your threatened range (your reach for melee, or 15 feet with Snap Shot).
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Again, threatened area is only for provoking, not for making them.I'm sorry, but no. Didn't you JUST finish ranting about how I keep misunderstanding you and you've always said you have to be able to reach something to attack it?
Your threatened area is merely all the squares into which you can reach with a melee weapon. That's how threaten is defined for crying out loud!
In other words, "within reach" and "threatened area" are the same thing. You threaten everything you can reach in melee (barring exceptions like whip) because that's precisely how threaten is defined.You can only make attacks of opportunity against creatures you can reach. In other words, which you threaten. Reach being a function of the reach combat statistic, which is typically 5 feet in any direction for a medium creature. If a huge creature attacks you with Crane Riposte, and you only have 5 foot reach, you cannot attack him.
Except, well, I keep pointing to the exceptions of the rule as the only way to do this. VERY specific exceptions that create a reach that is not in your threatened area.
So, stop trying to take the general stuff, that I've said many many many many many times does not create a reach outside your threatened area and keep trying to use it to fight the specific exceptions to the rule of reach and threatened area.
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How is it possible that you can use a shuriken to make an AoO out to 50', simply because of Crane Riposte, when an entire feat line, with all its prereqs (a feat line dedicated to making AoO with ranged weapons), limits you to making AoO out to 15'?The entire feat chain does not limit you to only making AoO out ot 15'.Yes, it does.
But okay, give me a situation in which you can make an attack of opportunity against someone outside your threatened range (your reach for melee, or 15 feet with Snap Shot).
When you have used crane wing to block a melee attack against a foe that had at least 10 foot of reach, and you had snap shot and shurikens or a whip in hand.
Except, well, I keep pointing to the exceptions of the rule as the only way to do this. VERY specific exceptions that create a reach that is not in your threatened area.So, stop trying to take the general stuff, that I've said many many many many many times does not create a reach outside your threatened area and keep trying to use it to fight the specific exceptions to the rule of reach and threatened area.
You've yet to provide me of an example of reach outside of one's threatened area. You can't do that, because they are one and the same thing.
If your entire argument is that snap shot and whips allow you to make attacks of opportunity against things you don't technically threaten in melee, you are correct.
However, you seem to find fundamental to this argument the decoupling of reach and threat, which are one and the same thing in that one defines the other.
Nevertheless, snap shot absolutely would NOT let you make attacks of opportunity outside of that 15' threatened area.
But okay, give me a situation in which you can make an attack of opportunity against someone outside your threatened range (your reach for melee, or 15 feet with Snap Shot).When you have used crane wing to block a melee attack against a foe that had at least 10 foot of reach, and you had snap shot and shurikens or a whip in hand.
So you couldn't give me a situation. I already provided for your exceptions in the language of my question. Other than those two exceptionally tiny corner cases, the exceptions for which I have already noted, you admit that this is impossible.
Stop saying it's possible.
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When you have used crane wing to block a melee attack against a foe that had at least 10 foot of reach, and you had snap shot and shurikens or a whip in hand.How is it possible that you can use a shuriken to make an AoO out to 50', simply because of Crane Riposte, when an entire feat line, with all its prereqs (a feat line dedicated to making AoO with ranged weapons), limits you to making AoO out to 15'?The entire feat chain does not limit you to only making AoO out ot 15'.Yes, it does.
But okay, give me a situation in which you can make an attack of opportunity against someone outside your threatened range (your reach for melee, or 15 feet with Snap Shot).
Making an Attack of Opportunity: An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack.
AoO are melee attacks. You can only make an AoO where you threaten.
You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn.
Absent a rule stating otherwise, you cannot make an AoO with a ranged weapon because they do not threaten.
While wielding a ranged weapon with which you have Weapon Focus, you threaten squares within 5 feet of you. You can make attacks of opportunity with that ranged weapon. You do not provoke attacks of opportunity when making a ranged attack as an attack of opportunity.
If you have this feat, you may threaten with a specific kind of ranged weapon. But, this feat in no way changes any other rule associated with AoO. Specifically, it does not change the rule that you must threaten a square to make an AoO there.
You threaten an additional 10 feet with Snap Shot.
Improved Snap Shot increases this range by 10'. It also does nothing to change the ordinary rule that you must threaten a square to make an AoO there.
Is it your belief that the Opportunity Rogue Talent allows a Rogue to make an AoO with a shortbow against an opponent 30' away because the Fighter smacked it with his/her sword?
Opportunist (Ex): Once per round, the rogue can make an attack of opportunity against an opponent who has just been struck for damage in melee by another character. This attack counts as an attack of opportunity for that round. Even a rogue with the Combat Reflexes feat can't use the opportunist ability more than once per round.
Notice this Talent also lacks the "provokes" language. Can a Rogue with Snap Shot make this AoO with a bow from 30' away?
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When you have used crane wing to block a melee attack against a foe that had at least 10 foot of reach, and you had snap shot and shurikens or a whip in hand.How is it possible that you can use a shuriken to make an AoO out to 50', simply because of Crane Riposte, when an entire feat line, with all its prereqs (a feat line dedicated to making AoO with ranged weapons), limits you to making AoO out to 15'?The entire feat chain does not limit you to only making AoO out ot 15'.Yes, it does.
But okay, give me a situation in which you can make an attack of opportunity against someone outside your threatened range (your reach for melee, or 15 feet with Snap Shot).
Improved Snap Shot gives you 15' of threatened area with that chosen weapon. So if the attacker is 5-15' away, you could make a ranged AoO with that chosen weapon. A whip ordinarily does not threaten. If you have the appropriate feats, you could attack an opponent with the AoO from Crane Riposte so long as they are within 10' of you (because the Improved Whip Mastery lets you threaten up to your natural reach +5'). Both those examples fall within one's threatened range.
Nothing you've provided is an example of the ability to make an AoO outside of one's threatened range. You cannot use this example to support this very same argument - that's begging the question.
We're simply asking you to provide, from anywhere in the wealth of rules related to Pathfinder, one example where a PC can make an AoO outside of that PC's threatened area. Since we're disputing this example, you cannot use it to support itself. Unless you can give me something to support your interpretation, I can't see your reading of Crane Riposte as being reasonable.
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And just for completeness' sake,
If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.
Normal: While wielding a ranged weapon, you threaten no squares and can make no attacks of opportunity with that weapon.
Both of those statements directly tie threatening squares with making attacks of opportunity. The first is the most explicit (and I mentioned it above). You cannot make AoO when you're unarmed (barring exceptions) specifically because you do not threaten.
You cannot make an AoO where you do not threaten. You have provided no rule which states otherwise, nor have you provided a rule or language which states that the AoO provided by Crane Riposte is excepted from this restriction.
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How is it possible that you can use a shuriken to make an AoO out to 50', simply because of Crane Riposte, when an entire feat line, with all its prereqs (a feat line dedicated to making AoO with ranged weapons), limits you to making AoO out to 15'?The entire feat chain does not limit you to only making AoO out ot 15'.
It gives you 15 feet of threatened area, to allow enemies to provoke AoO from you within that 15. And Provoking is not the same thing as making them. Provoking is an event that causes you to be allowed to make one, normally, but Crane Ripost is another event that allows one to make an AoO.
I'm not understanding your logic. The feat chain allows AoO to be made out to 15'. If an event that would normally provoke an AoO occurs when the offending creature is 20' away from you, you can't make an AoO against it with the ranged weapon because the creature is outside of your threatened range of 15'. The fact that the ranged weapon may normally be able to hit opponents at 1,000' is completely irrelevant in this situation.
You spent a bunch of time arguing a situation that will never happen because 99/999999% of Crane Wing players are going to take the feats or the weapon necessary to attack with reach or use Snap Shot. Pretty ridiculous.