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Presently, it seems that some GMs in face-to-face situations will accept scanned copies of Chronicles, but not all, and at least one GM has stated that they will accept the scans but not allow single-use boons to be used, since they can't be "crossed off."
Online players, though, are expected to have digitized versions of their chronicles, and the online VC recently made a post explaining in no uncertain terms that GMs could refuse to allow players who can't produce digital chronicles.
With the release of the Hero Lab character sheet, I have begun running my characters straight off my iPad; since we're allowed to maintain our own ITS, that will be digital as well. I would like to digitize my Chronicle sheets and keep them in PDF format so I don't have to carry a large folder full of paper to each game. This also makes my Chronicles less susceptible to damage and/or theft: If they are safety at home (since obviously I'll keep paper backups), and my backpack is lost or stolen at a con, I won't lose any irreplaceable data. (I'll lose my iPad, of course, but that's my problem, and if I'd instead lost my character sheets and Chronicles, I would've been screwed anyway--arguably more so, as far as playing PFS goes.)
Since a counterargument is likely to be that this opens the door to cheating, I would like to preemptively point out that the same technologies allowing one to cheat their digital records allow for cheating of hardcopy records; modern (color) printing technology makes it pretty straightforward to move from one medium to the other. But PFS already runs on the honor system--the idea is that you won't cheat, and there's not a whole lot we can do to enforce that. As such, I don't believe that this will cause any problems that don't already exist.
In essence, I think that the move away from the requirement for paper is not a bad thing, and the increased popularity of tablet technology makes it possible.
Since digital chronicles suffice for online gaming, can we consider an official policy that they suffice for face-to-face gaming as well, thus removing the current table variation that makes them impractical?
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at least one GM has stated that they will accept the scans but not allow single-use boons to be used, since they can't be "crossed off."
For this, couldn't the GM just make a note on the current chronicle that the boon has been used? Yes, the player could "get away" with using it again if a subsequent GM is not looking at the other chronicles, but cheaters are going to cheat.
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This is an interesting suggestion. I would personally be fine if someone had all of their digital chronicles; however, I'm usually quite wary of handling someone else's expensive electronic equipment.
Is there a way in which this could work without a very awkward period of having each player hold their tablet in front of me while I read each chronicle?
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I would just do it if I were you. I have recently been lucky enough to play PFS in person after years of doing so online and I have my character records all electronic. In fact when I get physical chronicle sheets I scan them in since to harmonize the way that I keep records.
Has anyone actually run into table variation with this where the DM refused to allow a character because of electronically kept records? If not then I bet it is a non-problem since everyone is being reasonable and if so, then hopefully it is a minority of DMs who have a problem and they can be identified and avoided.
Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane
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Besides the single use boons not being able to be crossed off (problem solved by noting the chronicle in which it is used), I see no valid reason to refuse to accept digital chronicles and would accept them. If I had a player who had digital chronicles, I would ask them to show up on the nights they are playing early to review them and the owner would be in the "driver's seat" on their device (dealing with the awkwardness of handling the player's property). I have a feeling there will not be an official policy brought down and table variation will continue.
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I have a feeling there will not be an official policy brought down and table variation will continue.
Sure, because something as fundamental as the required medium for record-keeping is definitely better left to the vagaries of table variation.
(I recognize you're not advocating this lack of action, just predicting it. My sarcasm is directed not at you (or your, no doubt, accurate prediction), just at the situation being predicted.)
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Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane
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I have a feeling there will not be an official policy brought down and table variation will continue.Sure, because something as fundamental as the required medium for record-keeping is definitely better left to the vagaries of table variation.
(I recognize you're not advocating this lack of action, just predicting it. My sarcasm is directed not at you (or your, no doubt, accurate prediction), just at the situation being predicted.)
Thanks Patrick.
If it did not indicate this when I posted that I would support something that stated a GM would have to accept electronic chronicles as well as physical ones. Especially since there are people who both play in person and online. It is harder for online GMs to accept physical chronicles for obvious reasons but I see no reason why an in person GM should not accept digital chronicles.
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Just because some people can afford and prefer to use technology, does not mean everyone can.
For online games, everyone participating has to meet a certain level of technology in order to participate and digital Chronicles become a necessity. Those online players who also play table-top games should easily be able to scan any paper Chronicles into their digital collection for online play.
For table-top games the required technology is dice, a mini, paper and a writing implement. So cheap that if a player does not have this tech, others at the table can easily supply them.
If the campaign allows table-top GMs to use digital Chronicles (emailing players their copies after the game) rather than handing players a printed copy of a Chronicle, this has the potential to place a burden onto the players that could lead to some choosing not to play.
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Don, I don't think that's what Patrick is suggesting. If I understand correctly, he scans his hard copy chronicles and then has the entire digital history of his character on his tablet. He's not asking that table GMs start sending out digital copies of chronicles instead of handing out physical copies; he's making sure that his digital chronicle sheets will be accepted by those GMs when he plays.
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Don, I don't think that's what Patrick is suggesting. If I understand correctly, he scans his hard copy chronicles and then has the entire digital history of his character on his tablet. He's not asking that table GMs start sending out digital copies of chronicles instead of handing out physical copies; he's making sure that his digital chronicle sheets will be accepted by those GMs when he plays.
Correct. Although I don't actually do it yet, because that's a lot of time spent preparing for something that people don't have to honor.
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In my mind, allowing digital character sheets and digital chronicle sheets is a concession for online players so they can play online as there is no feasible way for them to show physical copies. This is not normal for PFS play, but is a workaround to bring in that certain group. This should not be applied to those who play face to face as there is no need for such an exception. Just a desire. Just like it's a desire for the goblin plushes or the new messenger bag to supply a reroll for having purchased either.
I'm sorry it's inconvenient to carry around all your chronicles. Mine are piling up, too (and being an online player I still need to digitize them... pain in the ass...) so I can empathize, but I'm still against making the exception into the rule just for convenience. But that's just my two cents, take them as you will.
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Just because some people can afford and prefer to use technology, does not mean everyone can.
For online games, everyone participating has to meet a certain level of technology in order to participate and digital Chronicles become a necessity. Those online players who also play table-top games should easily be able to scan any paper Chronicles into their digital collection for online play.
For table-top games the required technology is dice, a mini, paper and a writing implement. So cheap that if a player does not have this tech, others at the table can easily supply them.
If the campaign allows table-top GMs to use digital Chronicles (emailing players their copies after the game) rather than handing players a printed copy of a Chronicle, this has the potential to place a burden onto the players that could lead to some choosing not to play.
Not true. I PFS PbP game 100% for free and 100% legal, (outside of me actually buying the books and scenarios, obviously). Adobe Reader is a free PDF reader with limited ability to edit. Another Program, PFS24 allows you to copy the Chronicle Sheet from the Scenario PDF, and save it as another PDF file. Reopen it in Adobe, and add in the comments and edits you desire, then save the file as a "Read Only". Next, (again 100% free), upload it to a Google Drive, and share the link with the player it is designed for (and doing likewise for all players), takes a total of like 10 minutes for 6 players and yourself, cost nothing at all, and allows them to either have a PDF copy or a mostly permanent online copy via Drive, which can not be altered from the original version, but can be printed easily.
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In my mind, allowing digital character sheets and digital chronicle sheets is a concession for online players so they can play online as there is no feasible way for them to show physical copies. This is not normal for PFS play, but is a workaround to bring in that certain group. This should not be applied to those who play face to face as there is no need for such an exception. Just a desire. Just like it's a desire for the goblin plushes or the new messenger bag to supply a reroll for having purchased either.
I'm sorry it's inconvenient to carry around all your chronicles. Mine are piling up, too (and being an online player I still need to digitize them... pain in the ass...) so I can empathize, but I'm still against making the exception into the rule just for convenience. But that's just my two cents, take them as you will.
Why, just because you do not see the value of something, do you feel it is right to keep other people who do from enjoying their hobby?
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Also something to keep in mind is that it is now required to use the Inventory Sheet. So a player that has a Chronicle Sheet with something that can be used is either cheating or the DM that ran the game when they used it failed to track it. In the past there might have been an excuse, (which would still be the player cheating), but now with the Tracking Sheet, not really.
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Why, just because you do not see the value of something, do you feel it is right to keep other people who do from enjoying their hobby?
I do see the value of convenience, but that's all it is: convenience. Online records were a need for online games so they could be on level footing with face-to-face. That need does exist for face-to-face. Would it be convenient? As someone with 7 active characters, I say a firm yes. But I still don't see a necessity here. Again, this is my opinion and will bow to the rules as they change. Hence the backlogging of 7 active characters' chronicle sheets for both online and offline play.
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Let me rephrase it then, why do you feel that convenience is such a bad thing? Players are voluntarily coming to his system, they are spending money on the hobby, getting together to socialize... what possible reason is there to add barriers simply for the sake of maintaining a set of quickly outdated rules (that is, not being inclusive of evolving gamer technology)?
As a leisure activity convenience is one of the mainstays of hobbyist retention. Making something more difficult than it needs to be just because it is not required seems a silly argument. Can you list any justification why this is a bad idea other than you dislike convenience?
(not just throwing this at you, really at the pool of folks who hate any sort of change in general at the expense of the actual consumers of this game)
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Not true. I PFS PbP game 100% for free and 100% legal, (outside of me actually buying the books and scenarios, obviously). Adobe Reader is a free PDF reader with limited ability to edit. Another Program, PFS24 allows you to copy the Chronicle Sheet from the Scenario PDF, and save it as another PDF file. Reopen it in Adobe, and add in the comments and edits you desire, then save the file as a "Read Only". Next, (again 100% free), upload it to a Google Drive, and share the link with the player it is designed for (and doing likewise for all players), takes a total of like 10 minutes for 6 players and yourself, cost nothing at all, and allows them to either have a PDF copy or a mostly permanent online copy via Drive, which can not be altered from the original version, but can be printed easily.Just because some people can afford and prefer to use technology, does not mean everyone can.
For online games, everyone participating has to meet a certain level of technology in order to participate and digital Chronicles become a necessity. Those online players who also play table-top games should easily be able to scan any paper Chronicles into their digital collection for online play.
For table-top games the required technology is dice, a mini, paper and a writing implement. So cheap that if a player does not have this tech, others at the table can easily supply them.
If the campaign allows table-top GMs to use digital Chronicles (emailing players their copies after the game) rather than handing players a printed copy of a Chronicle, this has the potential to place a burden onto the players that could lead to some choosing not to play.
And you don't consider the cost of a printer, paper, ink and/or laptop/tablet to cost anything?
In many cases access to these can be free at libraries or generous game stores. If someone can print files at work then they can probably afford the tech. But not everyone does have access to "free" computers and printers or the effort to gain this access is difficult enough that they would get tired of doing so and just decide not to play.
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And you don't consider the cost of a printer, paper, ink and/or laptop/tablet to cost anything?
In many cases access to these can be free at libraries or generous game stores. If someone can print...
What would cause someone who is digitizing their own chronicle sheets because it is an option that is available to them cause them to walk away and stop playing? There is no forced cost upon anyone under this scenario.
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What would cause someone who is digitizing their own chronicle sheets because it is an option that is available to them cause them to walk away and stop playing? There is no forced cost upon anyone under this scenario.And you don't consider the cost of a printer, paper, ink and/or laptop/tablet to cost anything?
In many cases access to these can be free at libraries or generous game stores. If someone can print...
Not that scenario, no.
But the scenario where a table GM sends out digital sheets to their players and a player at that table has no easy access to that digital sheet or an easy way to print it.
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And you don't consider the cost of a printer, paper, ink and/or laptop/tablet to cost anything?
In many cases access to these can be free at libraries or generous game stores. If someone can print files at work then they can probably afford the tech. But not everyone does have access to "free" computers and printers or the effort to gain this access is difficult enough that they would get tired of doing so and just decide not to play.
Not really, no. Granted, if it is a minor cost to pay for printing, sure, but between, (as you mentioned, free libraries, work, etc. . .) paying at most a few bucks, or asking a friend to use their printer, it's pretty much not an issue. At worst, the person can simply save the PDF to their phone or something, and simply loose the ability to make purchases after the session is over for that Chronicle Sheet, (except with Season 5 and the Inventory Sheet takes care of that now).
As for not having a computer, well then how are they using the digital copies, or even playing the game for that matter?
:)
Oh, I see, you are talking about a TT game that doesn't hand out physical Chronicle Sheets (which is part of the DM requirements as per the PFS Guide), but instead holds of and later sends out Digital ones. Not really sure I've ever heard of that being done, but I guess it could. But like I said, that's an issue with the DM, not the player(s), who probably wouldn't have more than one of these unless they played pretty much exclusively with a group that did this. I'm not sure. All around it's kind of still the DM that's messing up here, and if the player honestly just could not find a way to print out their Chronicle Sheet(s), I wouldn't think it would be that huge of a deal. I'd certainly make sure that they show me their characters Sessions online, (and even allow them to ue my phone to sign in if they couldn't themselves. Anything that does not show up, say extra Boons from cons opening up a new race or whatever that they can not otherwise prove, such as hey this novel is in my downloads right here), they simply can't use. If that means their Dhamp-pli of Nine Tails Tian weapon master doesn't work, "well sorry, they can <wait let me pull it out as I did go ahead and print them out (freely ha ha ha) for you>, pregen right here you can play instead."
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Let me rephrase it then, why do you feel that convenience is such a bad thing? Players are voluntarily coming to his system, they are spending money on the hobby, getting together to socialize... what possible reason is there to add barriers simply for the sake of maintaining a set of quickly outdated rules (that is, not being inclusive of evolving gamer technology)?
As a leisure activity convenience is one of the mainstays of hobbyist retention. Making something more difficult than it needs to be just because it is not required seems a silly argument. Can you list any justification why this is a bad idea other than you dislike convenience?
(not just throwing this at you, really at the pool of folks who hate any sort of change in general at the expense of the actual consumers of this game)
I openly admit that I am one of those people who don't like change. Mind has a hard time adapting. But that's neither hither nor tither.
You view not allowing digital chronicles as a barrier. I view it the opposite way. Allow me to explain:
1) GMs have to go through this stuff. That means trusting players to have valid characters and records which can and should be checked regularly (per the Guide). As mentioned above, there's an awkwardness to GMs handling someone else's tech. Not to mention format differences which we already have thanks to Hero Labs and other styled character sheets. It makes finding information at a glance difficult, taking up game time which is at a premium at cons and game days.
2) New players. It's already daunting for a new player to sit down with a seasoned player with a character who can solo the scenario. They see they have to get more books to have such a character and this and that. Now add to that someone who's gone totally paperless with chronicles and character sheets and the daunting aspect of jumping in just increases more and more. (Exaggerated example but you get my meaning.)
As much as I hate to say them, these adages apply:
- If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
- Progress for the sake of progress?
Just because we CAN move forward, we MUST? As a GM, I'm already uncomfortable with players running from a tablet. Especially with dice roller apps. So naturally going totally paperless for a pen-and-PAPER game rubs me the wrong way.
Don't misread, I understand what you're saying, I simply don't agree. Which to my mind is okay.
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As a photographer, who learned how to take photographs with film, the computer has become part of my every day life. Digital photography is another "tool" in my tool box so to speak.
All that being said I would not be thrilled to have to accept digital chronicle sheets.
We all have our preferences. I enjoy playing pathfinder. I enjoy playing PFS. One of the things I enjoy is that for myself, it is a chance to "unplug" and spend a few hours with my friends. I enjoy doing something that is tactile: rolling dice, scribbling on character sheets, drawing maps, getting out my huge Glabrezou Demon mini to scare my players, and yes doing the math in my head as much as I can.
I do use my lap top from time to time, to look up Pathfinder rules up online, or in a PFS PDF of a rule book i have on my lap top or an App on my phone. I also use hero lab to make and print up characters ( however i like to do my "research" first using my library of hard back rule book).
So I guess for me, my pathfinder games are a chance to unplug and socialize with friends.
As I said earlier I would not be thrilled to have to accept digital Chronicle sheets.
I don't think i would actually turn a player away if he didn't arrive with a single piece of paper, but, I would prefer to be able to use my own discretion.
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As much as I hate to say them, these adages apply:
- If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
- Progress for the sake of progress?Just because we CAN move forward, we MUST? As a GM, I'm already uncomfortable with players running from a tablet. Especially with dice roller apps. So naturally going totally paperless for a pen-and-PAPER game rubs me the wrong way.
Don't misread, I understand what you're saying, I simply don't agree. Which to my mind is okay.
Can't argue with that line of thinking, however I feel it is important to:
- Understand that a GM is a facilitator for a group of players, he is 1/5 or 1/7 of the gaming table, and as such his preferences do not outweigh those of the other participants in the evening. It is not the GM's role to be the sole interpreter of what is fun for the group, and as such his personal preference really shouldn't extend beyond that of 1/5th or 1/7th of consensus on non-mechanical questions in organized play. Game rules, the GM is absolutely the adjudicator, but the one who tells me what is best for me as a player, not a character... not so much.
- The current ruling is that you need the paper sheets, and it is every players' responsibility to bring them until the rule changes. Conservatism for the sake of being conservative however doesn't grow a community, it doesn't grow brand, it doesn't improve a product or service, and it doesn't allow an organic system to change over time as might be necessary to stay relevant.
- A group organizer of facilitator that chooses not to embrace the requests of their members will more likely find their player base suffering from attrition than one that is both an active listener and participant.
I don't know how one gets around liability issues of someone breaking a player's tablet, that is something I would consider to be common sense as the owner of electronics but I can't imagine everyone feels the same (or their parents in the case of minors).
I also hate dice rollers, soundly agree on that!
Thanks for the discussion, work is boring tonight.
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As much as I hate to say them, these adages apply:
- If it ain't broke, don't fix it.
- Progress for the sake of progress?Just because we CAN move forward, we MUST? As a GM, I'm already uncomfortable with players running from a tablet. Especially with dice roller apps. So naturally going totally paperless for a pen-and-PAPER game rubs me the wrong way.
Don't misread, I understand what you're saying, I simply don't agree. Which to my mind is okay.
Well yes we should move forward and update the rules to reflect better the reality of how more and more people play, namely using electronic resources. Herolab has always been an officially licensed option for use in building and running characters and even before herolab people were running characters from electronic character records so don't try to pretend that this is some new trend going on here.
I don't buy your first argument because PDF is the widely accepted standard format for these sorts of things so I don't know what you are going on about with different formats. I would hope that a DM in this day and age is computer literate enough to open a file on a laptop or tablet.
I don't even know what you are talking about here, I have never seen experienced player be anything other than great ambassadors for the hobby around new arrivals. Yes, even people who use technology at the table.
I do feel for you if you don't like technology in your games since the train is already far away from the station on that one, but I have never had a problem using electronic character records so I will keep using them no matter what the rule says and you can keep shlepping around your binders full of papers.
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@NOG, aye, slow shift here as well, haha. Good discussing with ya.
I don't buy your first argument because PDF is the widely accepted standard format for these sorts of things so I don't know what you are going on about with different formats. I would hope that a DM in this day and age is computer literate enough to open a file on a laptop or tablet.
I'm not talking file format, I'm talking character sheet layout. I understand how you could misinterpret. Stats here, skills there, where the smeg is your equipment? Oh, on page 17? Okay. Mostly I speak of third-party character sheet apps that I've come across at cons. Even the Hero Lab format throws me as I've not been overly exposed to it. But that's all.
I don't even know what you are talking about here, I have never seen experienced player be anything other than great ambassadors for the hobby around new arrivals. Yes, even people who use technology at the table.
And yet the perception is there. The first impression can be overcome with some questions, but more than I care to see do those questions not always get asked.
I do feel for you if you don't like technology in your games since the train is already far away from the station on that one, but I have never had a problem using electronic character records so I will keep using them no matter what the rule says and you can keep shlepping around your binders full of papers.
Haha, I GM and play online, so my tech savvy is not really an issue. Once again, I just don't see the need to bring it to tabletop. Just a desire.
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I apologise for bringing up a tangent to the OP's issue.
But while I'm all for allowing digital (scanned) Chronicle sheets at table-top games, I fear that some GMs will see this as permission not to hand out printed sheets at table-top games and I just wanted to make sure the point was made that GM's should not have the option of giving out digital sheets at table-top games (at least not yet - not until Paizo stops producing their products in printed format anyhow).
I have seen GMs who rely solely on their laptops/tablets and do not give players any handouts that are part of an adventure - instead reading the information to the players or having the players view the handout on the GM's device instead. And while I applaud the GM's efforts to be Green, there is a line that I feel is crossed when this is done.
Also, as the one who would require a one-use boon to be crossed off a Chronicle in order to use it, I'd be fine with a digital Chronicle sheet that a player had the ability to alter. Cheaters gonna cheat, but as long as honest players can mark their digital sheets in front of me, I'm fine with that.
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But while I'm all for allowing digital (scanned) Chronicle sheets at table-top games, I fear that some GMs will see this as permission not to hand out printed sheets at table-top games
That's quite a leap, Don.
To clarify: Handing out digital chronicles is not now and never has been part of my proposal; you can verify that by looking at the first message in this thread.
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- Understand that a GM is a facilitator for a group of players, he is 1/5 or 1/7 of the gaming table, and as such his preferences do not outweigh those of the other participants in the evening. It is not the GM's role to be the sole interpreter of what is fun for the group, and as such his personal preference really shouldn't extend beyond that of 1/5th or 1/7th of consensus on non-mechanical questions in organized play. Game rules, the GM is absolutely the adjudicator, but the one who tells me what is best for me as a player, not a character... not so much.
I agree. One's personal preferences on the matter really shouldn't come into it unless it's actually disrupting the game. It is not the DM's responsibility to enforce their own opinions on others. I don't like Dice Rollers either, but when I DM it's not my job to say no unless it's specifically illegal (or not included on a list of acceptable things like additional resources for game material), just because I don't like it. That's just being a jerk, and being DM does not in any way make you immune to that rule. :)
Now, if there is an issue with the program, like you suspect, legitimately suspect they are cheating via the roller, or are not showing their rolls, things like that, that's a different story. If you think the sheets are altered, or are incomplete, or you are not sure about something, that's when your job as a DM, your responsibility as a GM comes in.
- The current ruling is that you need the paper sheets, and it is every players' responsibility to bring them until the rule changes.
? Can you point to this ruling, because the VC's/VO's say the opposite. Digital Character/Chronicle/Inventory sheets are legal and usable, though it is the player's responsibility to bring them. It's been legal for a while as I understand it.
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I apologise for bringing up a tangent to the OP's issue.
But while I'm all for allowing digital (scanned) Chronicle sheets at table-top games, I fear that some GMs will see this as permission not to hand out printed sheets at table-top games and I just wanted to make sure the point was made that GM's should not have the option of giving out digital sheets at table-top games (at least not yet - not until Paizo stops producing their products in printed format anyhow).
I have seen GMs who rely solely on their laptops/tablets and do not give players any handouts that are part of an adventure - instead reading the information to the players or having the players view the handout on the GM's device instead. And while I applaud the GM's efforts to be Green, there is a line that I feel is crossed when this is done.
Also, as the one who would require a one-use boon to be crossed off a Chronicle in order to use it, I'd be fine with a digital Chronicle sheet that a player had the ability to alter. Cheaters gonna cheat, but as long as honest players can mark their digital sheets in front of me, I'm fine with that.
I agree with that, (outside of online play), but I've never seen this sort of thing happen. I have seen GM's hold off on giving out sheets until they can report the game, but that was generally with a group that they played with regularly and the layers had been ok with it, but that's a little bit different.
One-use Boons are supposed to immediately have the Character's ID number they are going to be a applied to written on the Chronicle Sheet before the player gets it, and that would be just as true with Digital Sheets, too, (and saved as Read Only). I know that doesn't always happen, and I understand also that at Cons they sort of just hand them out, but it is what it is. Cheaters are gonna cheat, like you said.
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Patrick, while I am sure it was never even in your imagination, it does fall under the same "good for the goose, good for the gander" defense. Someone who follows your logic, but isn't as sane, might say "Well online GM's aren't required to print chronicles, why am I?"
Thus, it is good for Don to point out that this could only work from the player side. The GM has to account for all kinds of players, but the player only has to account for himself.
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Can you point to this ruling, because the VC's/VO's say the opposite. Digital Character/Chronicle/Inventory sheets are legal and usable, though it is the player's responsibility to bring them. It's been legal for a while as I understand it.
Do not falsify rolls, do not falsify your Chronicle sheets, and do not add new items to your inventory without buying them properly. Do not lie to a GM under any circumstances. Keep good records of your character and make sure to bring all of your Chronicle sheets to every event or session of Pathfinder Society Organized Play. If you forget your Chronicle sheets, you will be unable to play your character, though you may be able to play a pregenerated character or start another character within Society rules. GMs rely on accurately kept Chronicle sheets to keep the campaign honest, fair, and fun for everyone. So keep your records safe, keep them accurate, and keep them with you when attending Pathfinder Society Organized Play events. (We suggest a binder that can be completely sealed between scenarios.)
Unlike the rules covering the use of digital copies to utilize additional resources the guide does not mention digital chronicle sheets being allowed except for the distribution resulting from online games
Another place to play Pathfinder Society events is online. Allowed formats include play-by-post, chatbased games, digital tabletops, and webcam-enhanced “face-toface” gaming. So long as the Game Master has a way of distributing all of the appropriate paperwork (by fax, scan, or otherwise), any form of legitimate online play is allowed and encouraged.
Even the language used in distributing chronicle sheets for online games digitally implies that those sheets will be reproduced in physical form by the recipients.
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I would argue that within the spirit of that rule Chronicle sheets which are in digital form are Chronicle sheets just as much as those which happen to have been printed out.
I also fail to see what about the inline play rules implies that the Chronicles must be printed by the recipient.
My question for you though is what purpose is served by parsing the rules in such a stringent fashion as to exclude any form of character documentation which is not on a piece of paper? I can see no compelling reason beyond screeds on the subject of technology at the gaming table.
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Yes, it's been clarified over on the Online Play forums that Digital Chronicle Sheets, (as long as they are signed and saved in away so that they can not be edited) are perfectly legal and fine, it is also legal to carry around digital Chronicle Sheets for your records rather than print out.
Unlike the rules covering the use of digital copies to utilize additional resources the guide does not mention digital chronicle sheets being allowed except for the distribution resulting from online games.
Oddly I'm not seeing the part where it mentions physical copies either. . . :)
Another place to play Pathfinder Society events is online. Allowed formats include play-by-post, chatbased games, digital tabletops, and webcam-enhanced “face-toface” gaming. So long as the Game Master has a way of distributing all of the appropriate paperwork (by fax, scan, or otherwise), any form of legitimate online play is allowed and encouraged.
Even the language used in distributing chronicle sheets for online games digitally implies that those sheets will be reproduced in physical form by the recipients.
How so?
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My question for you though is what purpose is served by parsing the rules in such a stringent fashion as to exclude any form of character documentation which is not on a piece of paper? I can see no compelling reason beyond screeds on the subject of technology at the gaming table.
The reason why I dislike the idea of allowing players to go 100% paperless is the fact that I have seen far too many players at cons lose the use of their devices during games.
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Yes, it's been clarified over on the Online Play forums that Digital Chronicle Sheets, (as long as they are signed and saved in away so that they can not be edited) are perfectly legal and fine, it is also legal to carry around digital Chronicle Sheets for your records rather than print out.
Please provide a link to the ruling made in the online forums.
Unlike the rules covering the use of digital copies to utilize additional resources the guide does not mention digital chronicle sheets being allowed except for the distribution resulting from online games.Oddly I'm not seeing the part where it mentions physical copies either. . . :)
Another place to play Pathfinder Society events is online. Allowed formats include play-by-post, chatbased games, digital tabletops, and webcam-enhanced “face-toface” gaming. So long as the Game Master has a way of distributing all of the appropriate paperwork (by fax, scan, or otherwise), any form of legitimate online play is allowed and encouraged.Even the language used in distributing chronicle sheets for online games digitally implies that those sheets will be reproduced in physical form by the recipients.How so?
The guide instructs the player to bring their paperwork to support their character with them to the game, and makes no mention of that paperwork being allowed to be presented in a digital format. Additional resources lists digital format as an approved method of providing the rulebooks.
The only time digital chronicle sheets is mentioned is when it describes how online GMs distribute them - not how players are to present them. With faxing listed as a distribution method it implies that the player is expected to have a physical copy of the chronicle sheet, and not just retain the digital copy.
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My question for you though is what purpose is served by parsing the rules in such a stringent fashion as to exclude any form of character documentation which is not on a piece of paper? I can see no compelling reason beyond screeds on the subject of technology at the gaming table.The reason why I dislike the idea of allowing players to go 100% paperless is the fact that I have seen far too many players at cons lose the use of their devices during games.
That is a problem with players not being careful in preparing for games rather than a problem with electronic character records. I would recommend that anyone who is actually running their character electronically bring a hard copy as a contingency, but that is a completely different issue from chronicle sheets.
Would you actually kick a player from one of your tables though for having their chronicle sheets available electronically? Or make them waste their time playing a pre-gen, which is basically just as bad?
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While I agree with Patrick's idea, I think the bigger picture that needs considering is that getting a rule like this put in place is slim to none - and will continue to rely on table variance.
There's a pattern of rigidity to both the current rules in place as well as sticking to paper over digital that usually ends up in threads like this lasting pages with no real outcome except a better idea of what the (forum-reading) community thinks about. Where that's the case, it's a bit of a shame, because it gives players and GMs the mentality that we need to enforce, enforce, enforce, and we lose track of enjoy, enjoy, enjoy.
We can't use cheating prevention as an excuse for much of anything when many of us use the same tools and don't cheat.
Digital devices might die in the middle of a game, but that's a necessary evil we need to take into consideration now. It's worse to turn away people who are going digital-only at an in-person table.
The culture needs to change to what we have to "you're at the table? good, let's play". Weeding out cheaters is a separate issue.
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Venture-Lieutenant, West Virginia—Charleston
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You keep saying that there are issues about functionality regarding electronic chronicles, but fail to address exactly what those issues are. The only functionality issue that has been raised is in regards to the ITS, which you say is too easily modified.
The bottom line is that if anybody wishes to falsify their paperwork, it is trivial to do so. Requiring that person to have printed out their chronicles does not reduce the falsification of paperwork in the slightest. The ITS does not require any form of signature, so a freshly printed one will always be valid - as it should be.
As a GM, I have more important things to worry about. I care about making sure that my players are having a good time. I'm not in this to make sure that everybody's TPS reports have the right cover sheet.
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Patrick, while I am sure it was never even in your imagination, it does fall under the same "good for the goose, good for the gander" defense. Someone who follows your logic, but isn't as sane, might say "Well online GM's aren't required to print chronicles, why am I?"
Thus, it is good for Don to point out that this could only work from the player side. The GM has to account for all kinds of players, but the player only has to account for himself.
Fortunately, as purportedly rational creatures, we as human beings can approve one argument--even one based on precedent--without automatically approving a separate argument that follows similar precedent.
The reason why I dislike the idea of allowing players to go 100% paperless is the fact that I have seen far too many players at cons lose the use of their devices during games.
A risk I'm already taking by only having my character sheet on my iPad. If that blows up in my face, it's my own fault.
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How do you deal with GM initials on Boons after their use on regular paper? A person with a high quality scanner / printer can make replicas of their Chronicles prior to using a boon and replace it every time they play a new game.
The rules have enough ambiguity to allow digital chronicle sheets on your device. And digital is far easier to maintain than physical sheets.
/As a show of solidarity to my Online Community, I will be bringing only digital copies of my character sheets, chronicle sheets, and dice rollers. The only non-digital asset I will have is my figurine.