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So the thread about the ninja/monk/air elemental familiar got me thinking.
Take a 4th level barbarian, with any race that grants an SLA.
At 5th level, you take a level of anything that grants you a familiar, and the feat: improved familiar: Air Elemental.
In combat, approach your target, carrying your air elemental held high. (bonus points if it is riding your back banner.)
You attack. Your air elemental whirlwinds. Since it is in the square above you, you are not caught in the whirl wind, the whirl wind is just above you.
Then, your air elemental readies an action to move if anyone attacks you. If they do, the air elemental moves down one square, picking you up, and carries you wherever you want to go. Your opponent can't do anything about it, and a a bonus is now stuck in a cloud of debris that hinders spell casting and just about prevents him from ranged attacks.
Next round, and every round after, your air elemental moves back, drops you off, you get full round attack, and then the air elemental (as a move action) picks you up and carries you away.
One feat, 5th level, flying, attack of opportunity proof, barbarian. And all for the price of 1d4+1 per round damage. (and if your barbarian can't soak 1d4+1 per round damage, you are doing something wrong.) Find a way to get DR 3 on there, and he won't even take damage most rounds.
There are no rules for getting carried by something, or ceasing to be carried by something, mid round. Its up to the DM how to handle it, and there's more than enough potential for cheese there for a dm to rationally say no.
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Yes, Caster level 5, thats why I have an SLA. Spell like abilities count for arcane caster requirements, and their caster level is your total level.
Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the whirlwind
The whirl wind is (minimum) 5 feet across at the bottom, and 10 feet tall. That makes *the whirlwind* size large. I'm size medium. One size less than the whirlwind.
Problem solved
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There are no rules for getting carried by something, or ceasing to be carried by something, mid round. Its up to the DM how to handle it, and there's more than enough potential for cheese there for a dm to rationally say no.
In my home game, yeah, totally. In PFS, there is no rule against it, and there is a rule allowing it. (the creature's power says it can pick you up as a move action and put you down as a free action) so as far as I can tell, the most the GM can do is deal you the damage and force you to make an acrobatics check to land on your feet.
If the GM tells me I can't do it, I'm not going to be a jerk about it, I'll just play a different character. But partly I am putting this out there to see if someone can find a rule to prevent it. (Because I would have thought this was total cheese and could never be done, but I can't for the life of me find a rule that prevents it.)
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I can't for the life of me find a rule that prevents it.)
Common Sense?
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You attack. Your air elemental whirlwinds. Since it is in the square above you, you are not caught in the whirl wind, the whirl wind is just above you.
Then, your air elemental readies an action to move if anyone attacks you. If they do, the air elemental moves down one square, picking you up, and carries you wherever you want to go. Your opponent can't do anything about it, and a a bonus is now stuck in a cloud of debris that hinders spell casting and just about prevents him from ranged attacks.
- Whirlwind is a special attack - so it has used up a standard action.
- Moving down one square to pick up the barbarian will use up a move.
- The whirlwind of a small air elemental only lasts 1 round.
So what actually happens is that, at the cost of all of its actions for a round, the elemental can ready an action to go whirlwind and move into the space where the barbarian is, damaging him.
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The whirl wind is (minimum) 5 feet across at the bottom, and 10 feet tall. That makes *the whirlwind* size large
Size categories don't work like that. Medium size creatures take up a space of 5ft, Large size creatures take up a space of 10ft. Since whirlwind space is different from the default, and the description doesn't give any definition of what size category the whirlwind becomes, I, as a GM, would default to the size of the creature who is making the whirlwind.
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- The whirlwind of a small air elemental only lasts 1 round.
So what actually happens is that, at the cost of all of its actions for a round, the elemental can ready an action to go whirlwind and move into the space where the barbarian is, damaging him.
Granted, this will be the effect at level 5 with one level of <insert familiar-granting class here>, since the familiar's effective HD are equal to his class level in <insert familiar-granting class here>. He could get a longer duration by putting more levels into <insert familiar-granting class here> (he'll need 4 total levels to bring it up to 2 rounds).
eldritch heritage for your familiar would likely work out better for you.
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You attack. Your air elemental whirlwinds. Since it is in the square above you, you are not caught in the whirl wind, the whirl wind is just above you.
Then, your air elemental readies an action to move if anyone attacks you. If they do, the air elemental moves down one square, picking you up, and carries you wherever you want to go. Your opponent can't do anything about it, and a a bonus is now stuck in a cloud of debris that hinders spell casting and just about prevents him from ranged attacks.
- Whirlwind is a special attack - so it has used up a standard action.
- Moving down one square to pick up the barbarian will use up a move.
- The whirlwind of a small air elemental only lasts 1 round.
So what actually happens is that, at the cost of all of its actions for a round, the elemental can ready an action to go whirlwind and move into the space where the barbarian is, damaging him.
Even if whirlwind is a special attack, it is still a special attack that is explictly part of a move. So all the whirlwind has to do is move *through* the barbarians square to pick him up and carry him away.
Why wouldn't your opponent just delay until after the barbarian's attack?
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Yes, it activates the whirlwind as a standard action, on it's turn, and then holds the movement part of it's turn until the barbarian is about to be attacked. It scoops up people as part of the whirlwinds movement.
If you rule that it can't hold it's move, thats fine, after the barbarian attacks, it takes it's turn, activates and whisks him to safety.
Why wouldn't your opponent just delay until after the barbarian's attack?
well, if the GM runs the way most I've seen run, the familiars actions are done during the barbarians turn, so the barbarian shows up, hits, and is gone all on his turn. If you ready to hit him as he arrives, he can either take that single attack, or use his 100 foot move to hit someone else.
Round 1:
You attack. Your air elemental whirlwinds. Since it is in the square above you, you are not caught in the whirl wind, the whirl wind is just above you.
Okay this works for me.
Round 2:
Then, your air elemental readies an action to move if anyone attacks you. If they do, the air elemental moves down one square, picking you up, and carries you wherever you want to go. Your opponent can't do anything about it, and a a bonus is now stuck in a cloud of debris that hinders spell casting and just about prevents him from ranged attacks.
This I have a problem with. Readying an action is a standard action. He's readied his action to move. Ready action trigger goes off, he moves down into the barbarian's square. Now the elemental only has a move action left. He can spend this to "pick up" the barbarian, but that leaves him out of actions. He has no actions remaining to move away.
Also, your familiar goes on your turn in the initiative order. That does not mean that you can intersperse its actions with the barbarian's. You can't have the barbarian attack once, then the elemental, then the barbarian again, etc. Either one or the other goes first, then the other one goes second. You can't save the elemental's move action until after the barbarian acts.
Next round, and every round after, your air elemental moves back, drops you off, you get full round attack, and then the air elemental (as a move action) picks you up and carries you away.
Again you are making "picks you up" a free action, it's not. It's a move action to "pick up an item." I'd certainly consider picking up the barbarian at least as taxing.
Also, I have a problem with your notion that the barbarian would get a full attack. In this scenario the elemental is essentially acting as a mount, using up his actions to move the barbarian. The rules for mounted combat state:
If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can't make a full attack.
So even assuming his air elemental familiar could move him away and back again every round (which it can't,) the barbarian is not going to get off a full attack.
I just don't see this working on any level as you describe it. The closest that would come to it would be to for the air elemental to serve as a mount, and as I quoted, there are already rules in place governing how mount actions and rider actions interact, and what the rider can and cannot do.
In my home game, yeah, totally. In PFS, there is no rule against it, and there is a rule allowing it. (the creature's power says it can pick you up as a move action and put you down as a free action) so as far as I can tell, the most the GM can do is deal you the damage and force you to make an acrobatics check to land on your feet.
Nothing i said is home game, home brew, or house rule. It works just fine in pfs.
The problem is that you are carrying a creature, giving it a free move action, and then its carrying you, giving you a free move action. Its functionally the equivalent of riding a horse for 80 with its double move,using fast dismount, then picking it up and moving your own 60. There are no rules for what happens when you carry another creature other than the mount rules (which is what i would default to here)
You are taking advantage of an area uncovered by the rules
and going with the weaker interpretation simply because it gives you an advantage which is pretty much the definition of munchkining. There may not be a rule against it but there is no rule for it either. It is complete and total uncharted rules territory... which means DMs call even in pfs.
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Yes, it activates the whirlwind as a standard action, on it's turn, and then holds the movement part of it's turn until the barbarian is about to be attacked. It scoops up people as part of the whirlwinds movement.
You cannot do this in Pathfinder. You cannot take part of your turn, then take the other part of your turn later, without readying an action. Readying an action is a standard action, no matter what kind of action you ready. The air elemental has already spent its standard action turning into a whirlwind. The delay action requires you to delay your entire turn.
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Quote:
Next round, and every round after, your air elemental moves back, drops you off, you get full round attack, and then the air elemental (as a move action) picks you up and carries you away.
Again you are making "picks you up" a free action, it's not. It's a move action to "pick up an item." I'd certainly consider picking up the barbarian at least as taxing.
This actually works due to the rules in the whirlwind description. The whirlwind only need to move through creatures in order to force reflex saves or be picked up, if the creatures are 1 size category size smaller.
eldritch heritage for your familiar would likely work out better for you.Good point. so, 3 feats? or a level dip into wizard... Yeah, 3 feats is probably better.
If your character is a human you can take the alternate racial that gives you three skill focus feats instead of your first level bonus feat. I think you only need the one eldritch heritage feat for a familiar. With improved familiar You end up with a two feat expenditure, but you can spend your second and third skill focus feats on things that would make for a great intimidate build. I think that would actually be pretty neat because the extra charisma would synergize well with an intimidate build.
Let me just summarize the main reasons why this won't work:
1) Improved Familiar cannot get you an air elemental large enough to pick up a Medium character
2) Whirlwind isn't harmless, so the barbarian will have to fail two saving throws to make this work each time
3) Whirlwind has a duration in rounds and no method is specified to end it; while it is not directly stated, I would take this to mean that the elemental cannot necessarily end the effect as a free action, and thus the barbarian would still be caught in the whirlwind
4) You cannot intersperse the actions of two characters in one turn on their initiative order. Only readied actions break this economy, and readying an action is a standard action.
5) Even if you somehow came up with ways to refute or ignore all of the above, the GM is perfectly free to rule that a creature that has been swept along by a whirlwind suffers any kind of penalties they deem reasonable. For instance, voluntarily failing the same could be taken as engaging in voluntary movement, possibly costing you a move action. The GM might even rule that you have to use a move action to "get ready" for the ride or else you are still treated as caught in the whirlwind when you land.
6) Even if you argue against the GM making a judgment call per 5), free actions are explicitly under the GMs purview, and when it comes to scooping up a character and depositing a character safely, all in one round, it is purely RAW within the GM's rights to say all of those things cannot happen inside a single turn.
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Let me just summarize the main reasons why this won't work:
1) Improved Familiar cannot get you an air elemental large enough to pick up a Medium character
2) Whirlwind isn't harmless, so the barbarian will have to fail two saving throws to make this work each time
3) Whirlwind has a duration in rounds and no method is specified to end it; while it is not directly stated, I would take this to mean that the elemental cannot necessarily end the effect as a free action, and thus the barbarian would still be caught in the whirlwind
4) You cannot intersperse the actions of two characters in one turn on their initiative order. Only readied actions break this economy, and readying an action is a standard action.
5) Even if you somehow came up with ways to refute or ignore all of the above, the GM is perfectly free to rule that a creature that has been swept along by a whirlwind suffers any kind of penalties they deem reasonable. For instance, voluntarily failing the same could be taken as engaging in voluntary movement, possibly costing you a move action. The GM might even rule that you have to use a move action to "get ready" for the ride or else you are still treated as caught in the whirlwind when you land.
6) Even if you argue against the GM making a judgment call per 5), free actions are explicitly under the GMs purview, and when it comes to scooping up a character, ending your whirlwind form, and depositing a character safely, all in one round, it is purely RAW within the GM's rights to say all of those things cannot happen inside a single turn.
1. Yes.
2. Needs to fail one saving throw. Having to make the saving throw against being picked up is separate from having to make the saving throw to reduce damage.3. Sure, but the whirlwind can throw creatures out caught inside as a free action, so this isn't relevant.
4. Yes. Until the Character gets to level 6 with Eldritch Heritage, at which point his elemental can be in a whirlwind for 2 rounds at a time, allowing it to ready action once every two rounds.
5. GM discretion
6. GM discretion
1. Yes.
2. Needs to fail one saving throw. Having to make the saving throw against being picked up is separate from having to make the saving throw to reduce damage.
Okay, I didn't parse "second save" correctly. You're right.
3. Sure, but the whirlwind can throw creatures out caught inside as a free action, so this isn't relevant.
How is it not relevant? The GM can say, "There isn't enough time to take that free action."
4. Yes. Until the Character gets to level 6 with Eldritch Heritage, at which point his elemental can be in a whirlwind for 2 rounds at a time, allowing it to ready...
You're going to have to explain that one to me. What does readying an action get you? The only thing you can do with a readied action is move through the barbarian's space, picking him up; you cannot drop him, as that is a free action and you have already taken your readied action.
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So what you're trying to say is that if you have a large air elemental whirlwinding it can deliver allies at the cost of doing damage to you every round, for 1 round per 2/hd, and you're taking -2 on all attacks.
Or you could whirlwind said enemies to you, or whirlwind them into the air and drop them for falling damage? Right at your feet?
You wouldn't even take the -2 to all attacks because that only occurs when you're inside the whirlwind.
You can also try bull-rushing your allies into full attack position!
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You're going to have to explain that one to me. What does readying an action get you? The only thing you can do with a readied action is move through the barbarian's space, picking him up; you cannot drop him, as that is a free action and you have already taken your readied action.
4. Yes. Until the Character gets to level 6 with Eldritch Heritage, at which point his elemental can be in a whirlwind for 2 rounds at a time, allowing it to ready...
Fair enough.
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Fair enough.You're going to have to explain that one to me. What does readying an action get you? The only thing you can do with a readied action is move through the barbarian's space, picking him up; you cannot drop him, as that is a free action and you have already taken your readied action.
4. Yes. Until the Character gets to level 6 with Eldritch Heritage, at which point his elemental can be in a whirlwind for 2 rounds at a time, allowing it to ready...
3. Sure, but the whirlwind can throw creatures out caught inside as a free action, so this isn't relevant.
How is it not relevant? The GM can say, "There isn't enough time to take that free action."
If the elemental is doing nothing but turning into a whirlwind, and then moving, then it be a pretty dick move not to allow 1-2 free actions during the elemental's turn. Free actions take barely any time at all. Note that I'm assuming that it's the elemental's turn for this, since you can't do it as a readied action anyway, due to 4.
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Re: not being able to get a large enough elemental.
The power explicitly says that it it picks up creature "one size smaller than the whirlwind." It then says it makes a whirlwind 10-20 feet tall. That means the Whirlwind created is size large to huge.
So it can pick up anything medium or smaller. You are correct that if it says that a creature creating a whirlwind can pick up any target one size category or smaller than the creature, this would be a problem. But by the rules as written, it is the size of the whirlwind that matters, not the size of the elemental that made it.
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The problem is that you are carrying a creature, giving it a free move action, and then its carrying you, giving you a free move action. Its functionally the equivalent of riding a horse for 80 with its double move,using fast dismount, then picking it up and moving your own 60. There are no rules for what happens when you carry another creature other than the mount rules (which is what i would default to here)
We have rules for this.
Ride: horse makes double move
Dismount: Free action if you make your ride check
Standard Action: Grab and lift your horse.... Umm... you need to have some way to have enough strength, and size, but if you can do that:
Move: You used your standard, so you only have a single move left.
Nope. not the same at all. It is more a case of the rules seem to explicitly allow what I'm doing.
The rules say I can go into combat carrying my 4' long, 1lb air elemental. (At best it needs to make a ride check to have both hands free, but since it doesn't need both hands, who cares.)
The rules say my 4' Air elemental can turn into a 20' cyclone as a standard. The rules say my 20' cyclone can pick me up as a free action during it's move if it enters my square, and can put me down again, also as a free action.
So far everyone has said "you can't do it, it's a small air elemental." which is irrelevant since the rule clearly says it's the size of the cyclone not the size of the elemental that matters. Or they have said, "Well the GM can disallow it" but the whole point of the PFS is that the GM can't allow or disallow stuff just because they don't like it.
We don't have rules for what happens when an air elemental puts you down, but we have *in general* rules for what happens when you are picked up and put down, in terms of what happens when a grab is released. And we have rules for falling, so we can pretty much tell what happens when an air elemental puts you down.
Since we're throwing common sense out the window:
No where does whirlwind say that it modifies the size category of the using creature.
No where does it say that a large sized creature has a 5ft base and a 10ft peak width.
No where does it say that a thing that has a 5ft base and a 10ft peak width is large size.
So depending on how you read raw, the whirlwind would either have the size category of the using creature or have no size category at all.
It then says it makes a whirlwind 10-20 feet tall. That means the Whirlwind created is size large to huge.
No, it doesn't. A creature is whatever size it is. The Size assigned to each creature depends on a general estimation of its height, weight, and density. A whirlwind is considerably less dense than other creatures of those dimensions, even less so than a giant snake. A whirlwind doesn't even threaten squares and can move through other creatures, so it's clear it has an entirely different set of characteristics than a creature of normal mass.
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Gordon. Actually, yeah it does.
Under the definition of size categories. Creature 8-16' tall are large, those 16-32' tall are huge.
The whirl wind is between 10-20 feet tall, therefore depending on how large the elemental chooses to make it, it is either large or huge.
And the rules say it is the size of the whirlwind that matter, not the size of the creature that made it.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/combat/space-reach-threatened-area-te mplates
In the same row it says the space is 10ft, and "typically" 8-16' tall.
The whirlwind has a 5ft base.
Therefore, its not defined.
Edit: Also, the weight of the whirlwind is not defined.
Edit 2: A large air elemental weighs 4 pounds. Does that mean its tiny? If that air elemental turns into a whirlwind, its still 4 pounds. Its also 40ft tall. If you look at that table, it means it can belong in two different size categories. Which one is it?
The problems include durration and LOS. What is the Barbarians other class level? How can the Barbarian see through the cloud of debris made by the whirlwind picking it up?
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Yes, it activates the whirlwind as a standard action, on it's turn, and then holds the movement part of it's turn until the barbarian is about to be attacked. It scoops up people as part of the whirlwinds movement.
If you rule that it can't hold it's move, thats fine, after the barbarian attacks, it takes it's turn, activates and whisks him to safety.
Why wouldn't your opponent just delay until after the barbarian's attack?well, if the GM runs the way most I've seen run, the familiars actions are done during the barbarians turn, so the barbarian shows up, hits, and is gone all on his turn. If you ready to hit him as he arrives, he can either take that single attack, or use his 100 foot move to hit someone else.
The ready action lets you prepare to take an action later, after your turn is over but before your next one has begun. Readying is a standard action. It does not provoke an attack of opportunity (though the action that you ready might do so).
Emphasis mine.
It takes a standard action to assume whirlwind form and a standard action to ready. You cannot do both in the same round.
What a laughable attempt to game the system.
Why don't you try to play the game using the actual rules?
Some folks find entertainment in trying to "outsmart" the system, to find the cracks in the rules and attempt to squeeze as much cheese through as they can. This particular attempt is one of the more clumsy I've see given all its problems, but the theory is the same.
I'm hoping he'll regale us on how it goes when he attempts to run this argument by a PFS judge, and what the results are.
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What a laughable attempt to game the system.
Why don't you try to play the game using the actual rules?Some folks find entertainment in trying to "outsmart" the system, to find the cracks in the rules and attempt to squeeze as much cheese through as they can. This particular attempt is one of the more clumsy I've see given all its problems, but the theory is the same.
I'm hoping he'll regale us on how it goes when he attempts to run this argument by a PFS judge, and what the results are.
After he's taken the class level and the feat.
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Artanthos.
As I said, if you rule that it can't hold it's move (I think you are right about that in retrospect) then as I said.
Barb round 1:
barb moves
barb attacks.
Air elemental whirlwinds (standard)
--Air elemental is in barbs square, barb is picked up
Air elemental moves 100 feet away. (move)
Enemies take their turns.
Barb round 2:
Air elemental moves to closest enemy, but 5' above ground. (move)
-- Air element puts down barb directly below it, as free action.
Air elemental readies a move action to move after the barbarian attacks(standard)
Barbarian Full attacks
Air elemental uses it's readied move.
So far, the only arguements I can find against this are:
need to fail a reflex check
To pull this off, the barb has to deliberately fail a reflex check. First, *can* he chose to fail the reflex check? Since this is an attack, and it is not harmless, it's not implicit that he can forgo the reflex check. But if it was a fireball for example, couldn't he say "nah, I'm not going to take my reflex check, I'll stand here and eat it like a man!"
Certainly, if he is raging, I would think he couldn't chose to fail a reflex check.
sticking the landing.
You are being whirled and twirled around a whirlwind, which then drops you. From what height in the whirlwid are you being dropped. If you are planning on it dropping you does that count as jumping down? If it is 5 feet off the ground when it drops you, that should be no damage, and no damage means no going prone. If it is 10 feet off the ground, you need to make a DC 15 check to not go prone. That means if it is 5 feet off the ground so you don't take concealment penalties on your hit, and it has to drop you from it's top half then that means you need a acrobatics check.
At 1 HD your elemental will not be able to whirlwind. At 2hd it will only last long enough to pick you up and drop you.
We have rules for this.
Ride: horse makes double move
Dismount: Free action if you make your ride check
Standard Action: Grab and lift your horse.... Umm... you need to have some way to have enough strength, and size, but if you can do that:
Move: You used your standard, so you only have a single move left.
You can make it a 20 strength halfling with their riding dog if you want. Otherwise most fighter types with an ant haul spell can pull it off easily.
Most of what you're saying isn't in the rules, and its patent absurdity points out whats wrong with it. There are no rules for something going from mounted to unmounted mid round, much less switching the rider and mount positions mid round.
I would read the "Your mount acts on your initiative count as " You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move." as you're using your action to move, unless you have a specific exception listed in that chapter.
Not that it matters but what rule are you citing that it that its a standard action to pick something up?
...And what class gives you an air elemental familiar at 1st level anyway?
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Some nuances that were missed:
Ready Action
- If the creature has not moved that turn, a 5' step (in this case straight down) is allowed with Readied Actions.
- You cannot take extra actions with a Readied Action unless the action you take grants them explicitly. (This is intuitive since one of the Action Types you can Ready is a Free Action.)
- Trying to argue the density of an Air Elemental as the size it takes up is absurd. A Huge Elemental is huge, Earth, Air, Fire, or Water. The Earth elemental is not more Huge because it is more dense nor the Fire and Air elementals less Huge because they do not contain the same mass. This argument chain has no strength and is pedantic at best.
- The wording on the effect is very clear: The size of the Whirlwind, not the size of the creature creating it. If the whirlwind places a footprint to cover the appropriate size, it is Small/Medium/Large/Huge/Gargantuan/Colossal accordingly. You can refer to this resource for the legal definitions. Please note the use of the wording "Typical" for Height and Weight, but not Space.
- Raging does not make you a frothing at the mouth moron. You can make withdraw actions, drink potions, fight defensively, and use tactical feats. There is no argument here for indicating you could not choose to fail a saving throw unless you had a separate ability which stated such. Superstitious is an example of this.
In the end, this tactic is perfectly legitimate if the character chooses to do it. Regardless of how happy it makes anyone to see it. However, in order to do all the "readying" the character can pull it off once every other turn without some special shenanigans. Turn 1 sets up the positioning and abilities. Turn 2 pulls of the trick. Repeat as often as allowed.
@FLite If you want the DR of around 3 at that level, be an Invulnerable Rager. You'll have DR:2 and DR:3 by next level. Better with Stalwart feats.
@CWheezy I agree that players should not be attacking others for their comments or questions. As FLite said he was hopeing someone would "rule" this combo out.
@ ErrantPursuit great points!
@FLite I now see how the Improved Familiar feat gets you the Air Elemental. And because Whirlwind is a special attack for the creature its HD are irrelivent to durration because it can do it every turn because the Whirlwind SU discription is missing a cooling off period. It does say however that things are "Ejected" not placed and with all the spinning one would be hard pressed to get off their attack. I.E. Stop the world I want to get off! I would expect the enemy, whatever it is, to begin using their attacks on the elemental AC17 HP13 as soon as one tried this. Loosing your familiar is still a very bad thing.
Except the size of the whirlwind is still not clear.
You can go, hey that whirlwind looks pretty huge! Therefore its huge size category! But the rules don't support that.
When you turn into a whirlwind, you have a 5ft base. When you move around on the ground, only people touching that 5 ft has to make a check. The size categories tells us nothing about what to categorize something that has a different size at every height level.
But I can see you won't accept that, so lets argue what I think the designers intended with two links:
Prestige class from Paizo's Path of Prestige
Here is the relevant ability:
At 2nd level, a Master of Storms becomes a physical embodiment of the fury of the storm. As a standard action, she can transform herself into a whirlwind (as whirlwind universal monster ability) for a number of minutes per day equal to her class level. This time need not be consecutive, but must be spent in 1-minute increments.
As a swift action, the Master of Storms can change the height of her whirlwind form from a minimum of 10 feet tall to a maximum of 20 feet tall.
At 4th level, and again every two levels thereafter, the maximum height of the whirlwind increases by 10 feet, to a maximum of 60 feet tall at 10th level. If the Master of Storms is underwater when she uses this ability, she instead transforms into a vortex of the same size (this functions identically to the whirlwind ability, but can form only underwater and can't leave the water). The Master of Storms can breathe water while in vortex form. If the Master of Storms does not possess a fly or swim speed, she gains one (as appropriate to her new form) equal to her base land speed when in storm shape. With a fly speed, she has average maneuverability.
The Master of Storms can damage and trap Small or smaller creatures caught in her whirlwind, dealing lethal damage equal to her unarmed strike damage to each one that fails a Reflex save (DC 10 + the Master of Storms's class level + the Master of Storms's Strength modifier) and lifting it into the air if it fails a second Reflex save.
At 4th level, and again every two levels thereafter, the size of creatures the Master of Storms can affect increases by one step, to a maximum of Huge at 8th level.
Here, the master of storm can start off turning into 20ft tall whirlwind. But by your interpretation of the rules, you should be able to pick up medium sized creature, except that they can only start off by trapping small or small sized creature, because he's medium sized. He gains a special ability added on that lets me pick up bigger creatures as he gains levels.
Now here's a link to the old version of air elemental, all the way back in 3.5
Creatures one or more size categories smaller than the elemental might take damage when caught in the whirlwind (see the table below for details) and may be lifted into the air.
Now, maybe Paizo just wanted to buff air elementals. Or maybe this was a consequence of them wanting to move abilities to the universal special ability section by copy pasting the 3.5 entry and removing references to specific creatures.
Now with those two links, coupled with the fact that whirlwind doesn't state it increases the size category, I think its a safe bet to say that the size category of the whirlwind is dependent on the person who's creating it.
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Most of what you're saying isn't in the rules, and its patent absurdity points out whats wrong with it. There are no rules for something going from mounted to unmounted mid round, much less switching the rider and mount positions mid round.
Really?
Fast Mount or Dismount: You can attempt to mount or dismount
from a mount of up to one size category larger than yourself as
a free action, provided that you still have a move action available
that round. If you fail the Ride check, mounting or dismounting
is a move action. You can’t use fast mount or dismount on a
mount more than one size category larger than yourself.
so you could, actually, move, mount your steed, have your steed double move, and dismount your steed, and take your second move. All you have to do is make two DC20 ride checks. Not easy, but you can do it.
I would read the "Your mount acts on your initiative count as " You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move." as you're using your action to move, unless you have a specific exception listed in that chapter.
Nope, you are not using your action to move. Otherwise you could not use a full ranged attack while riding, because you would have used your move action. The mounted combat rules explicitly state that you can make full round ranged actions.
You *do* need a move action to control a non combat trained mount in combat.
If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you
can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to
wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so
you can’t make a full attack
You can make a full attack with a ranged weapon while your mount is
moving. Likewise, you can take move actions normally.
In other words, the only limit on number of actions while riding, is that you cannot make a full round melee attack because the full round attack requires you to start your turn within 5' of the enemy.
Not that it matters but what rule are you citing that it that its a standard action to pick something up?
Grapple or Drag for a creature.
Double checking, picking up an object is a move action. I thought it was a standard.