1) In PFS legal, can one make a bladebound/soul forger magus?
2) If not, why not?
3) If so, how do they interact?
4) Does he get the masterwork starting weapon as per Arcane Bond? The sidebar of black blades state the weapon could have been handed down in the family. Can this starting weapon have been a black blade, that doesn't "awaken" until level 3?
5) And the black blade states it functions "like" a masterwork of its type, but can't it be masterwork since being masterwork functions as masterwork?
6) Also, how does/doesn't Heirloom Weapon function with Arcane Bond?
7) Can my Heirloom Weapon be my black blade (heirloom states it isn't masterwork, and black blade says it functions as masterwork but doesn't say it actually is)
8) Can the three (Heirloom, Black, Arcane) mesh since the blade is non-masterwork (heirloom) but functions AS masterwork (black) so it then meets the masterwork (since it functions as masterwork) for arcane bond requirements?
9) Or can masterwork trans. be cast on the heirloom black blade to make it viable for arcane bond?
check the black blade faq. you cant do alterations to it
You'll probably have better luck posting this in the Rules Forum.
"Talk about Pathfinder Society rules..."
This is the tag for this forum. I seem not to know my way around here, so can you possibly give me some directions?
Also, the FAQ only speaks to enchanting the Black Blade with things like flaming frost etc. Doesn't touch on a single one of my questions.
Unless of course there is ANOTHER FAQ I don't know about.
Your question does not seem specific to Pathfinder Society (unless I missed something).
This forum is best for discussing campaign specific material and rules. You'd probably have better luck in the Rules Forum. More people read the Rules Forum and can answer your question quicker. Just be sure to mention that this is for a PFS character so you don't get a lot of homebrew answers.
Also, if you search before you post over there, I'm sure your questions have been discussed before.
Deviston wrote: 1) In PFS legal, can one make a bladebound/soul forger magus? yes, but why would you
Deviston wrote: 3) If so, how do they interact? Well, by the rules as written, at first level you get a soulbond sword, your spell strike and spell combat can only be used through that sword.
Also at first level, you lose 60% of your arcane pool, and you lose one spell per level per day. (this get made up by the fact that your sword can cast one spell per day.)
At third level, you gain, in addition, a black blade. But since none of your magus abilities work with it because you have a soulbonded sword already, it sits in it's scabard most of the time snarking at you.
Thats how the rules say it works.
Deviston wrote: 4) Does he get the masterwork starting weapon as per Arcane Bond? The sidebar of black blades state the weapon could have been handed down in the family. Can this starting weapon have been a black blade, that doesn't "awaken" until level 3? Yes, he gets a masterwork ability. In a home game you could probably get a GM to go along with that weapon being a black blade in disguise, but probably not by RaW. Especially since being an arcane bond adds powers to a blade (extra spells for a start), and the FAQ says you can't add powers to a black blade.
Deviston wrote: 5) And the black blade states it functions "like" a masterwork of its type, but can't it be masterwork since being masterwork functions as masterwork? No, it says if anyone else wields it it functions like it is "just a masterwork weapon" It otherwords it is a masterwork weapon with lots of extra powers, but if anyone else holds it, it acts like it is just a masterwork weapon. (ie. it doesn't lose it's powers, it just pretends to.)
Deviston wrote: 6) Also, how does/doesn't Heirloom Weapon function with Arcane Bond? Well, you have a bonded sword, and you have a black blade, and now you have a heirloom weapon as well. I hope you can juggle? :)
Deviston wrote: 7) Can my Heirloom Weapon be my black blade (heirloom states it isn't masterwork, and black blade says it functions as masterwork but doesn't say it actually is) Nope, black blade is masterwork, your HW is not, they are different blades. If we are in a home game, talk to me and I'll make an exception, but otherwise, you are out of luck.
Deviston wrote: 8) Can the three (Heirloom, Black, Arcane) mesh since the blade is non-masterwork (heirloom) but functions AS masterwork (black) so it then meets the masterwork (since it functions as masterwork) for arcane bond requirements? See above.
Deviston wrote: 9) Or can masterwork trans. be cast on the heirloom black blade to make it viable for arcane bond?
Nope, Black blade cannot be altered in any way. also, you can't cast mt on a masterwork blade.
Yes the two archetypes are compatable, not the black blade cannot be your heirloom weapon. No your arcane bond cannot become your black blade, but the black blade can become your arcane bond, but an arcane bond black blade cannot be upgraded.
Black blade is masterwork, but in the bladebounds hands it is more then that, for anyone else its just a plain old masterwork sword.
If you are hopeing to have the black blade become more then a +5 sword you are out of luck.
True, you could "dismiss" you bondsword and then rebond to your black blade, I didn't think about that.
Still, not sure if this would really buy you much benefit over just having a single archetype.
The important question is definitely why? Most of the Soul Forger's abilities come at 11th level or later when your PFS character is retired. If you want to have a powerful weapon of your own, just go Blade Bound. You sacrifice too much from the Soul Forger archetype for nothing in return.
Also PFS does not allow crafting so the bonus level to craft skills are moot.
Shinobikazuma wrote:
Also PFS does not allow crafting so the bonus level to craft skills are moot.
Daily job check. Not that he will get much out of that, the cost of being a soul forger is very high. Unless you play in a campaign where magic items get routinely destroyed the Reforge ability don't do much.
BTW, I don't think that the reforge ability will work on a destroyed black blade. It has a specific procedure to reforge it.
Yes, but sacrificing that many spells/abilities like spell recall so that he can have a higher day job check? Definitely not worth it in PFS.
And Blade Bound is very specific about how the weapon works, it can never be broken as long as you have a Black Blade pool point.
Shinobikazuma wrote: Yes, but sacrificing that many spells/abilities like spell recall so that he can have a higher day job check? Definitely not worth it in PFS.
And Blade Bound is very specific about how the weapon works, it can never be broken as long as you have a Black Blade pool point.
Exactly, it can't be broken, but nothing say it can't be damaged or destroyed. It is simply immune to the broken condition.
2 treads in the forum about that, with 35 FAQ it in one, so far.
You can find it here.
Addressing the blackblade being masterwork. The entry specifically says it is NOT in fact masterwork, but functions as IF it were. This (as I read it) means it falls into both categories. By definition it is not masterwork (heirloom applicable) and act as if it is (arcane bond applicable).
As for "waiting until level three" the entry for blackblade specifically states it could have been passed down in the family line for generations (pun intended). You can, by that line alone, have the blackblade in your hands, but not have access to the blade's abilities.
As for WHY I want all this? The flavor of the character. I play to have my mechanics and RP match. The character is a reincarnation (via the trait) of himself and is his own descendant. He knew he would reincarnate one day so he fathered and passed down the blackblade. His abilities (magus spells and whatnot) only work with his blackblade in hand (arcane bond)because that's how it worked in the past (RP). The RP for having the blade in hand with no blackblade powers (i.e. it not awakening until level 3) is because it needs to see a specific trait in the man to really know it is his forger.
I'm FAIRLY certain this isn't important, but just in case, the weapon type is just a longsword. I was going to go scimitar for the Dervish thing, but after doing all this research (and coming up nearly empty handed) I discovered that concept is FAR from original and what most people kind of expect a magus to do. And I steer away from campy.
If you are willing to wait till 3rd level for full power, why not a bastard sword? At 2nd level you can learn how to sue it one handed.
A strength based magus can use it very well.
RAW I think you can even use it two handed with spellstrike (but not spellcombat). Changing the grip on the blade is a free action sio you can cast and the attack using it in two hands.
I thought PFS banned the use of craft skill checks?
I also thought the main benefit of being a Soul Forger was the bonus to craft rolls, and the reason they get diminished spellcasting.
Maybe legal.... but why bother?
Diego Rossi wrote: If you are willing to wait till 3rd level for full power, why not a bastard sword? At 2nd level you can learn how to sue it one handed.
A strength based magus can use it very well.
RAW I think you can even use it two handed with spellstrike (but not spellcombat). Changing the grip on the blade is a free action sio you can cast and the attack using it in two hands.
The bastard sword is an exotic weapon, and therefore not applicable to the blackblade. Blackblade must be simple or martial. The bastard can be USED as martial, but isn't TREATED as martial.
Similar to the blackblade being TREATED (and used) as masterwork, but isn't ACTUALLY masterwork. With the word treated in there however, it takes on the property "in all circumstances where the word "masterwork" is required, this item applies in those circumstances". Since it actually isn't, it also has the property "this item is non-masterwork".
First apply "this item is non-masterwork", then apply afterwards (which means not replacing but augmenting) "treat it as masterwork.
Logically, it can both be heirloom (meets the non-masterwork requirement) and arcane bond (is treated as masterwork).
Cruel Kindness wrote: I thought PFS banned the use of craft skill checks?
I also thought the main benefit of being a Soul Forger was the bonus to craft rolls, and the reason they get diminished spellcasting.
Maybe legal.... but why bother?
Once again, flavor. Not a thing to do with mechanics. I want to utilize the mechanic that states "when Billy doesn't have his blackblade, he is more useless than a equal level commoner". I don't want to be able to just pick up another sword and function just fine. That's the point of the character. He draws his power from his connection to the blade, and the blade him (i.e. his magus level).
As long as I keep my blade, my character continues. Say it gets sundered, I either live to reforged it, or die a glorious death. Happy with both options really.
Deviston wrote: Diego Rossi wrote: If you are willing to wait till 3rd level for full power, why not a bastard sword? At 2nd level you can learn how to sue it one handed.
A strength based magus can use it very well.
RAW I think you can even use it two handed with spellstrike (but not spellcombat). Changing the grip on the blade is a free action sio you can cast and the attack using it in two hands.
The bastard sword is an exotic weapon, and therefore not applicable to the blackblade. Blackblade must be simple or martial. The bastard can be USED as martial, but isn't TREATED as martial. Actually, it just has to be one-handed slashing. Could even be a whip.
Well slap my donkey and call me a witch. I wonder where I got that from...
Oh my apologies! The simple/martial are requirements for heirloom. That's why I was limited. Got the rules mixed for a bit. You'll have to forgive me, this is really the first time I've even glanced at a magus since Pathfinder even came out.
End result however is it's going to be a longsword due to heirloom weapon.
Deviston wrote: Once again, flavor. Not a thing to do with mechanics. I want to utilize the mechanic that states "when Billy doesn't have his blackblade, he is more useless than a equal level commoner". I don't want to be able to just pick up another sword and function just fine. That's the point of the character. He draws his power from his connection to the blade, and the blade him (i.e. his magus level).
As long as I keep my blade, my character continues. Say it gets sundered, I either live to reforged it, or die a glorious death. Happy with both options really.
I get flavor vs crunch, but nothing you just said has any relevance to the Soul Ftorger archetype as far as I can tell. Actually, it doesn't seem you mentioned anything about Soul Forger besides the opening question...
I have to ask, why does it seem you are trying to optimize for uselessness?
Edit for bold tags and formatting.
Edit 2: I don't see the "more useless than a commoner" thing you've referenced. Link, maybe?
Oh, let me rephrase.
"Not a thing to do with the beneficial mechanics. I want to utilize the limiting mechanic..."
Because that's the theme I want for my character. Blade in hand, superbeast. Blade out of hand, weakened extremely. Soul Forger is because I forged the blade myself centuries ago and it has my soul in it. Hence me GOING to be reincarnated, because as long as the soul is tied to the sword and the sword exists, I can't be severed from the sword fully. I will always reincarnate to wield it again. All theme obviously. But that's why I play D&D, for the role play.
Edit: "more useless than a commoner" was simply referencing that the character would have access to nearly none of his class features due to not having his arcane bond weapon.
Deviston wrote: Addressing the blackblade being masterwork. The entry specifically says it is NOT in fact masterwork, but functions as IF it were. Where does it say this? I couldn't find it in the description.
FLite wrote: Deviston wrote: Addressing the blackblade being masterwork. The entry specifically says it is NOT in fact masterwork, but functions as IF it were. Where does it say this? I couldn't find it in the description.
"A black blade normally refuses to use any of its abilities when wielded by anyone other than its magus, and acts as a masterwork weapon of its type."
The bolded portion. If it were masterwork, it would say so. But since it says it "acts as", it is therefore not.
Example: The fighter class doesn't say "this class acts as if it is the fighter class" it specifically states "the fighter". If one says a thing functions "as if" it were another, then it is not, in fact, the other.
That's why every item doesn't say "this item acts as if it were this item".
Edit: Buddy made a point. Blackblade requires you to select a one handed slashing weapon. "Masterwork" is an adjective that describes a weapon. Blackblade doesn't state "select a one handed slashing weapon and adjective that modifies it". For example you can select a longsword, but you could not select a +5 vorpal longsword.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The blackblade trumps all other bonds. If you have a blackblade, you can not have any other form of bond, period. No familliar, no arcane bonded weapon, no animal companion, no bonded mount, nada, not even through multi-classing.
Not true, LazarX, it simply disallow the familiar bond.
PRD wrote:
Black Blade (Ex): At 3rd level, the bladebound magus' gains a powerful sentient weapon called a black blade, whose weapon type is chosen by the magus. A magus with this class feature cannot take the familiar magus arcana, and cannot have a familiar of any kind, even from another class.
Nothing about bonded weapons.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Deviston wrote: 1) In PFS legal, can one make a bladebound/soul forger magus?
2) If not, why not?
3) If so, how do they interact?
4) Does he get the masterwork starting weapon as per Arcane Bond? The sidebar of black blades state the weapon could have been handed down in the family. Can this starting weapon have been a black blade, that doesn't "awaken" until level 3?
5) And the black blade states it functions "like" a masterwork of its type, but can't it be masterwork since being masterwork functions as masterwork?
6) Also, how does/doesn't Heirloom Weapon function with Arcane Bond?
7) Can my Heirloom Weapon be my black blade (heirloom states it isn't masterwork, and black blade says it functions as masterwork but doesn't say it actually is)
8) Can the three (Heirloom, Black, Arcane) mesh since the blade is non-masterwork (heirloom) but functions AS masterwork (black) so it then meets the masterwork (since it functions as masterwork) for arcane bond requirements?
9) Or can masterwork trans. be cast on the heirloom black blade to make it viable for arcane bond?
1. Yes you can, but the Bladebound arcehetype will disable the arcane bond feature of the soul forger.
3. As I noted in 1. above.
4. No, for the same reason. You can describe your black blade as being the masterwork weapon in level 1, but in that case you'll have to buy it. Or you can have your weapon "reveal" it's masterwork qualities when it wakes up as your black blade.
7-8 No.
9. The blackblade can not be modified from it's book stats. You can not have a weapon that is both a blackblade and arcane bonded, and you can not have an arcane bond of any type if you posess a black blade.
The blackblade despite it's form as a weapon is NOT an ordinary weapon. It's essentially a Baby Stormbringer type of "thing" that takes the form of a weapon. It's creature AND blade, all in one.
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cruel Kindness wrote: I thought PFS banned the use of craft skill checks?
You can use them for day job rolls. Also in certain situations, a craft skill check might give you information about something or enable something to be done.
Lazar, I appreciate your answers, but there is no explanation or official ruling behind them.
For example, the blackblade says nothing about "turning off" arcane bond or trumping it. Arcane bond after all, isn't a familiar. Same in regards to blackblade not being able to be modified from its book stats. No where are those words written. And same once again with the blackblade not being masterwork then "revealing" its properties.
I'm no as much picking your arguments because I disagree with you (however I do on many cases) but mostly to point out that official ruling and clarification is needed.
After doing a lot of thinking, I've come to a couple of conclusions:
1. That the blackblade was probably intended to be masterwork, not just "work as if it is" masterwork. I feel like it being masterwork was implied, not needing to be stated due to it being common sense. Obviously not my first point of view, but the more I read some of the rules, the more I'm lead down that path.
2. I also feel as if Heirloom Weapon can be Masterwork Transfigured into masterwork, at which point it CAN be your blackblade, but only if it is masterwork at the time you hit level 3. Once again, similar to the "waking up" thing.
3. I don't know anything about whatever "stormbringer" is, but in the case of the blackblade, it may not be a standard item (it being a class feature and all) but I think it functions as a standard item except where the rule state it doesn't. For all intents and purposes, it is a weapon. This is logic. When you want to do a weapon related thing with it, you can. If the specific blackblade rules say you can't then you can't. But everything else, why wouldn't one be able to do it?
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