But if there isn't a name and/or PFS number, how to you deal with the possibility that the same book will be used several times by individual members of a group of friends? How do you avoid the perception that that is happening?I'd be prepared to accept that possibility. As a GM, it wasn't my job to police intellectual property rules. Even as a VO, I don't have to require a standard of proof that would be acceptable in a court of law - if a player shows up with a copy of a book, and tells me that the book is his property, I'm going to believe him (unless it's obviously a library copy, or if I happen to know he's just borrowed it from one of the other players). I choose to trust my players in the absence of any evidence that convinces me they don't deserve my trust.
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Campaign management will come up with definitive rules; if they require more than this, I'll defer to their requirements.
Oh, I agree, it is not the GM's job to police intellectual property, but it is Paizo's job to do so.
Which is why I was suggesting an option for Paizo to be able to do so, but also one that would allow players who don't own PDFs and don't want to drag along xx lbs of books to game days or cons.
While I can understand people wanting to keep their books pristine (not going to happen in my case - thrown into backpacks, etc..), what I and others have been suggesting is simply another option for players.
John, I have no objections to your approach for your local game days, but I don't believe that it would work at cons, or if the players don't get you as their GM.
Please note that the ruling will not affect me, as I am a long time subscriber and have most if not all of the relevant books in hard copy and PDF format. I am simply looking for a possible solution for those wanting to play but who cannot (for various reasons) carry all of their physical books with them.
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As John put above, I am certainly not the only person to feel this way, and frankly if you want to write in your book then that's cool, but I object to people insisting I write in mine. A pristine book is a pristine book, and I prefer not to deface them. My CRB I bought when it first came out is still in nice condition, heck even my orginal store bought 1st ed books on my bookshelf look neat (though yellowed with age since the 80's).
I really don't want to be gauche and write in them.
Likewise, PFS play only says you have the book in your possession, says nothing about proof of ownership.
True - so if you have the book in your possession at the table, you are good to go.
If you don't want to carry the book and you have plenty of spare cash, buy the PDF and the tablet device and you are good to go.
If you have no need for a tablet, just buy the PDF and print the appropriate pages out.
If you really don't want to spend extra cash on the PDF, either don't base your character on content that you don't want to be able to present at the table, or (if the idea is picked up) sign your book and get the appropriate chronicle needed to be able to use a photocopy of the pages.
How about if someone created a standard PFS bookplate that was printed onto sticky labels and had a space for name, PFS ID and contact details in case of loss? Would that make signing the book less traumatic?
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net result of this is we bought a dolly to cart around the books to every game this weekend. 20 bucks that should not have been required, but is, just to play PFS.
I've gone through 4 or 5 versions of a way to carry my books.... from a messenger bag when it was just one or two books, to a rolling duffle bag to carry everything -- books, minis, scenarios, etc.
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net result of this is we bought a dolly to cart around the books to every game this weekend. 20 bucks that should not have been required, but is, just to play PFS.
It is not required to play PFS. It is required for you to play PFS with the characters you've built, using the sources you have chosen, in the media of your preference.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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20 bucks that should not have been required, but is, just to play PFS.
It's not required "just to play PFS", it's required "to play PFS while satisfying a personal preference of using oodles of options from multiple books while also satisfying another personal preference of using hardbacks instead of PDFs".
You were not required to treat your preferences as non-negotiable. The fact that to accommodate some of your preferences required investment is a function of your preferences, not of PFS.
Trying to paint the cost of self-accommodation as being an outside requirement is pretty dishonest.
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what is the ruling on families
so again if i get PDF, and my son wants to use something out of it, does he need to purchase the PDF as well? Or Wife.
As stated briefly up thread, they can used printed pages from the PDF if you buy it under your watermark.
The ruling is that anyone within the same household can use the same PDF
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what is the ruling on families
so again if i get PDF, and my son wants to use something out of it, does he need to purchase the PDF as well? Or Wife.
Its been stated in other threads, but generally you should only have one copy of the actual PDF file. Others in the family (household) should be using watermarked printouts of the information that is needed for their characters.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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I personally have invested in wheeled luggage to carry all my gaming supplies, books included.
I'll buy one of those when they start making them with brains enough to follow me around the room and go park itself in a corner when they aren't needed.
I've gotten so where I hate books and paperwork so much I just lean on my PDF collection, and HeroLab on the iPad for everything. I've even played around with snapping pictures of chronicles and tracking them on the tablet, not quite there yet.
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I've gotten so where I hate books and paperwork so much I just lean on my PDF collection, and HeroLab on the iPad for everything. I've even played around with snapping pictures of chronicles and tracking them on the tablet, not quite there yet.
I used to scan my Living Greyhawk ARs and keep them on a convertible tablet PC (before iPads). I haven't gotten to that stage with my PFS Chronicles, yet.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I used to scan my Living Greyhawk ARs and keep them on a convertible tablet PC (before iPads). I haven't gotten to that stage with my PFS Chronicles, yet.How does a GM "check off" parts of the scanned-in Chonicle sheet when they get used?
A grease pencil, of course. Or possibly a crayon.
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RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16
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I'll buy one of those when they start making them with brains enough to follow me around the room and go park itself in a corner when they aren't needed.It also carried all my minis, flip-mats, dice, aids, and even my clothes when I went to the airport.
You didn't wear clothes to the airport? Awkward...
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We don't need to know about the "dirty stuff" in your luggage.
I'm having a flashback to a business trip I was once on, in which one of my colleagues had forgotten to remove a few "recreational items" from his suitcase after his previous trip, which had been a getaway weekend with his girlfriend. TSA insisted on a thorough (and very embarrassing, for my colleague) hand inspection of the contents of his luggage. ;-)
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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I used to scan my Living Greyhawk ARs and keep them on a convertible tablet PC (before iPads). I haven't gotten to that stage with my PFS Chronicles, yet.How does a GM "check off" parts of the scanned-in Chonicle sheet when they get used?
There are hundreds (thousands?) of people who play PFS online and rely almost completely on digital/ scanned chronicles, I would assume the GM trusts the players use a photo/ image editor to do it. Maybe some GMs require people have printed out chronicles and the players have to pull them up on a webcam and check them off… if so I've never heard of such silliness. The times I've played online, the GM's asked for a digital copy of my character sheet and chronicles and sent me the chronicle via email.
At some point perhaps PFS will move into the 21st century and there will be some better way to handle this where actual paper chronicles will be reserved for the grognards who like living in the 1970s.
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If I'm going to be "lawful neutral" on this as a GM, at least let me be efficient.
Enhancement requests (in user story form):
As a GM, I want to view players' records of purchases of e-books and physical books made through Paizo.com so that I can quickly check that a player has purchased the materials to support their character.
As a player, I want to be able to record purchases of physical books made at other retailers at Paizo.com so that my GM can quickly verify that I have satisfied the PFS requirements for play.
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I personally have invested in wheeled luggage to carry all my gaming supplies, books included.
I'll buy one of those when they start making them with brains enough to follow me around the room and go park itself in a corner when they aren't needed.
I've gotten so where I hate books and paperwork so much I just lean on my PDF collection, and HeroLab on the iPad for everything. I've even played around with snapping pictures of chronicles and tracking them on the tablet, not quite there yet.
All you need to do, then, is get your luggage made out of sapient pearwood, and then it will follow you EVERYWHERE. Just be careful, though, sapient pearwood tends to have a mind of its own.
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... As a player, I want to be able to record purchases of physical books made at other retailers at Paizo.com so that my GM can quickly verify that I have satisfied the PFS requirements for play.
I really like this suggestion. Besides purchases, I've won/received Pathfinder materials as prizes (an Inner Sea World Guide and a CRB) or a GM perk (novels) during conventions. Being able to record these in my online order list would be very awesome.
This way, if I have a mix of dead tree (hard or soft cover) and PDFs I can just have one list to refer to/show a GM (either in person or online) instead of a list of PDFs/my tablet with all the PDFs on it, and a stack of books.
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Enhancement requests (in user story form):
As a GM, I want to view players' records of purchases of e-books and physical books made through Paizo.com so that I can quickly check that a player has purchased the materials to support their character.
As a player, I want to be able to record purchases of physical books made at other retailers at Paizo.com so that my GM can quickly verify that I have satisfied the PFS requirements for play.
I don't see the point of this. What does this give the GM? Fine, you own 'McGuffins of Golarion', but without the canonical rules in front of me, how do I know you're using them correctly?
Also, it has a lot of the same issues as the 'serial number in back of book' idea.
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I realise that everyone's personal circumstances are different, but I think paying ~£6 for the PDF of a 256/320-page hardcover, so you have it in searchable format and can print out the pages you need to reference (or just bring the PDF on a tablet), is a very reasonable price to pay to avoid lugging the book around.
Especially given how this compares to the cost of attendance, travel, accommodation, food, other game materials etc. for many gaming events.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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... As a player, I want to be able to record purchases of physical books made at other retailers at Paizo.com so that my GM can quickly verify that I have satisfied the PFS requirements for play.I really like this suggestion. Besides purchases, I've won/received Pathfinder materials as prizes (an Inner Sea World Guide and a CRB) or a GM perk (novels) during conventions. Being able to record these in my online order list would be very awesome.
This way, if I have a mix of dead tree (hard or soft cover) and PDFs I can just have one list to refer to/show a GM (either in person or online) instead of a list of PDFs/my tablet with all the PDFs on it, and a stack of books.
The problem I have with your idea is this.
You still have to have the rules for your PC. If you're using emergency force sphere out of Cheliax at my table, I don't always have that PDF on hand*. (If I'm GMing with my Kindle for example) If you want to use it, I want to see it. I don't want to see a list of it on it, I don't want to see a signed note from Mike Brock that you own the resource**, I want to see the source, so I can see the spell.
So if you own the book, and don't bring it, it must be in the "Big book of stuff that doesn't work at my table."
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Well with the GM having access to the prd, it means that they automatically have access to all the books the player needs for their character. Of course, it's not viable for a GM to actually do this as it would eat up too much of the table time with character auditing.
Just because a GM is allowed to use the PRD, or is allowed to use printouts from the PRD, doesn't mean that the GM will have the PRD available during the game.
Do you seriously intend to turn up to a game with no resources?
And then to demand that the GM break off what they're doing, every two minutes, to look stuff up for you, to advise you how your PC abilities work?
What happens when he tells you he doesn't even own a laptop or tablet?
What then?
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Enhancement requests (in user story form):
As a GM, I want to view players' records of purchases of e-books and physical books made through Paizo.com so that I can quickly check that a player has purchased the materials to support their character.
As a player, I want to be able to record purchases of physical books made at other retailers at Paizo.com so that my GM can quickly verify that I have satisfied the PFS requirements for play.
I don't see the point of this. What does this give the GM? Fine, you own 'McGuffins of Golarion', but without the canonical rules in front of me, how do I know you're using them correctly?
Also, it has a lot of the same issues as the 'serial number in back of book' idea.
I think they were trying to figure out a way to allow photocopied pages. But I'd rebut that with "ok, you put on the page that you bought this book, but there is no way for paizo to prove that you bought it, might as well mark off that you bought everything and copy them from a friend". This is a complicated issue and people can argue both sides of it.
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As a GM, I want to view players' records of purchases of e-books and physical books made through Paizo.com so that I can quickly check that a player has purchased the materials to support their character.
No, thanks. The second in which that information is shared with the PFS GM, it is shared with the whole world.
I prefer to keep what privacy I can keep on the Internet (not much).What I divulge is because I have a big mouth but I am the one divulging it.
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I used to scan my Living Greyhawk ARs and keep them on a convertible tablet PC (before iPads). I haven't gotten to that stage with my PFS Chronicles, yet.How does a GM "check off" parts of the scanned-in Chonicle sheet when they get used?
Honestly? Never came up. I always, always forget those one-use or limited-use things on Chronicles. They are essentially a valueless proposition for me.
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RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
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I realise that everyone's personal circumstances are different, but I think paying ~£6 for the PDF of a 256/320-page hardcover, so you have it in searchable format and can print out the pages you need to reference (or just bring the PDF on a tablet), is a very reasonable price to pay to avoid lugging the book around.
Especially given how this compares to the cost of attendance, travel, accommodation, food, other game materials etc. for many gaming events.
You'll be okay paying same for me, then?
Cheers!
Doubtful.
OTOH, I'm perfectly willing to say you should bring the books as required or not use that option.
Cheers!
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If you are new to Pathfinder and PFS, I would certainly suggest that with the current guidelines purchasing your desired books in PDF form is absolutely the way to go. It is both cheaper and considerably easier to manage for PFS events.
I think it is mostly us old pathfinders who had a massive physical collection prior to joining PFS who are feeling major "d'oh!". Yeah the PDFs are not expensive, but the taste of re-purchasing all your materials for a noteworthy convenience in PFS play is somewhat bitter.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I think it is mostly us old pathfinders who had a massive physical collection prior to joining PFS who are feeling major "d'oh!". Yeah the PDFs are not expensive, but the taste of re-purchasing all your materials for a noteworthy convenience in PFS play is somewhat bitter.
I can sympathize with the "d'oh!" feeling. Even so, it's like if you had custom or otherwise non-regulation sports gear that you used in the park with your buddies and then wanted to join some sort of league; sucks that you would need to buy the same gear in different form, but it's not reasonable to expect instead that the league should change its rules to accommodate you. If you want to benefit from all the perks of organized play (sports or PFS), such as a player supply, venue availability, etc; then it's only fair to play by its rules.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16, Contributor
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Honestly? Never came up. I always, always forget those one-use or limited-use things on Chronicles. They are essentially a valueless proposition for me.I used to scan my Living Greyhawk ARs and keep them on a convertible tablet PC (before iPads). I haven't gotten to that stage with my PFS Chronicles, yet.How does a GM "check off" parts of the scanned-in Chonicle sheet when they get used?
You never know, a +5 bonus on Diplomacy to gather information from left handed pottery workers in the east end of Korvosa might just save your character's life some day.