|
In the early days of of the OGL, a 3PP would pay a licensing fee and get a copy of the standard license. It was not intended for everyone, only to those who paid for the license.
This is never how the OGL worked. Things published OGL were legal to republish as long as you obeyed the terms of the license, which you will notice (if you read it) contains no requirement to pay a licensing fee.
The d20 license was a different matter, although if I'm not mistaken, even then you didn't have to pay a fee. But, if you wanted to use the d20 trademark, you were more restricted in what you could publish.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
|
Neferphras: GMs are expected to have access to those portions of the hardcover line that are required to run their adventure. They are not expected to have access to all of your feats. If you want to use that feat, bring the book. Some GMs, like myself, are a little more lax, so long as I have my tablet with the stuff on it up. If it runs out of batteries, though, I do require players to start producing books. Be prepared for it.
|
I was prepared to do that if I was merely carrying my ipad and some dice. With the extra weight of every book I needed for 22 characters this would have been exhausting. Why do I know this? Because I carted fewer books than I currently require a smaller distance at UK Games Expo a few years back.
Call BS all you like Andrew, that's why I didn't go.
I am confused as to why you did not use your iPad. Do you not have the PDFs and could not afford them?
|
|
Are we still talking about GM expectations?well yes i think
so if i bring just the printed out pages, and gms are supposed to have access to the core 5 books mentioned, am i good to go?
You can ALSO use the PRD as well... if you have access to it. If you have a tablet of some sort there is an app for it on there that you can use as a GM only at PFS... If you have a lap top you can still use the PRD on the laptop too. I do this all the time. You do not NEED to bring physical copies of the book with you ALL the time unless you want to do so.
This is stated IN the Guide to Organized Play :)
Deanoth,
neferphras is suggesting that the player need not have those items for things he is using, I believe. That the GM is responsible for them being present at the table.
The PRD is not acceptable for PCs.
|
|
Are we still talking about GM expectations?well yes i think
so if i bring just the printed out pages, and gms are supposed to have access to the core 5 books mentioned, am i good to go?
You can ALSO use the PRD as well... if you have access to it. If you have a tablet of some sort there is an app for it on there that you can use as a GM only at PFS... If you have a lap top you can still use the PRD on the laptop too. I do this all the time. You do not NEED to bring physical copies of the book with you ALL the time unless you want to do so.
This is stated IN the Guide to Organized Play :)
Deanoth,
neferphras is suggesting that the player need not have those items for things he is using, I believe. That the GM is responsible for them being present at the table.
The PRD is not acceptable for PCs.
I agree with you it is not acceptable for PC's to use for the Core Assumption but a player COULD use the PRD to look specific rules up if they chose to do so and show the GM if they like. They do not have to whip a book out if they choose not to, to look a rule up only. But for verification purposes the PRD is not legal, in this you are correct.
But I have no problem with a player looking rules up in it though.
|
|
I personally don't think I'd take a $600 or $700 device to a con, but since he appears to be OK doing so, PDFs would seem to be a good solution.
I'd be ok with it, worst case and older iPad 2 can still be picked up at very reasonable prices, as can a range of Samsung offerings - worst case jump on Dealextreme and grab a cheap tablet.
Frankly I'd like to see Paizo put out a PDF bumper pack for new starters, aimed at players (ie no need for GMG or Bestiaries etc)
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
|
Frankly I'd like to see Paizo put out a PDF bumper pack for new starters, aimed at players (ie no need for GMG or Bestiaries etc)
Given that the hardcover rulebooks are $10 per PDF (cheaper than the rest of their PDFs), what would you expect to see that isn't already available?
For $30 you can already get the Core Rulebook + Advanced Player's Guide + Ultimate Equipment; for another $20 you can add Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic. That's going to let you build quite a wide range of characters.
|
|
Yeah I think it is when my 13 year old decided to play and made her wishlist it looked kinda longwinded. See what happens when you start with a beginner box?
I get the initial $50, but it's the bajillion 'companions' that add up.
It's also a bit annoying to fork over the same money twice (mine and hers).
|
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
|
The PRD does not contain items from the Inner Sea World Guide (e.g. the feat "Dervish Dance"), or from the Campaign Setting or Player Companion lines (e.g. the "Agile" weapon property, or a spring-loaded wrist sheath, both from the Adventurer's Armory).
Correction: the "Agile" weapon property is, of course, from the Pathfinder Society Field Guide, not the Adventurer's Armory.
|
Matthew, it is important to remember paizo is a company that wants to make money, and pfs is probably a good way to do that
Not to show me what it does.I actually have no idea what you mean by this.
So you mean you don't allow hero lab? So if I have the book and a character sheet, and you ask what X does, and I show you my sheet, you make me look it up in the book instead?
Text might be edited within the HeroLab program. Best bet to prevent confusion is to get the text from the source.
|
Yeah I think it is when my 13 year old decided to play and made her wishlist it looked kinda longwinded. See what happens when you start with a beginner box?
I get the initial $50, but it's the bajillion 'companions' that add up.
It's also a bit annoying to fork over the same money twice (mine and hers).
Why do you need to pay twice? Members of the same household can share PDFs if sitting at the same table. All you need to do is print out the pages with the non-core things actually used by the characters, and you are good to go even if you are not at the same table. No need to buy duplicates.
It's always good to have a printed copy of what is in use in the back of the character folder, even if you have the PDFs, because of unexpected battery drain, theft, etc.
|
It was Shadowcon in London.shadowcon is a non residential con, and is 2 slots each day.
the organiser Terry T set up all the games and tables on warhorn, so there was no need to bring 12 characters.
I refer you to the point I made above Chris about wanting choice.
Also even bringing books for one or two characters would have been impossible.
|
|
I am confused as to why you did not use your iPad. Do you not have the PDFs and could not afford them?I was prepared to do that if I was merely carrying my ipad and some dice. With the extra weight of every book I needed for 22 characters this would have been exhausting. Why do I know this? Because I carted fewer books than I currently require a smaller distance at UK Games Expo a few years back.
Call BS all you like Andrew, that's why I didn't go.
Because I have the books and I refuse to pay for pdfs just so I can go to conventions.
Also I find pdfs horrible to reference from.
|
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32
|
Text might be edited within the HeroLab program. Best bet to prevent confusion is to get the text from the source.Hmmmm, everyone locally uses hero lab, and I have seen this roughly never!
I would rather hero lab be officially accepted, because whoo boy do humans make many times more mistakes than hero lab does.
I GM for lots of people who use HeroLabs, and I have seen it make LOTS of mistakes, both in the wording and calculation of abilities. More importantly, when you show me something from HeroLab, I have to assume that it's not showing me a clarified or errata'd or whatever version of the feat, trait, etc. Finally, when you purchase from HeroLab, you are not purchasing a product that funds Paizo in the same way. Personally, given the strife over HeroLab as an official source in PFS, I sort of wish that Paizo had never offered their resources to it to begin with.
|
|
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
If you're just joining this conversation, here's a quick summary of the last 100 posts or so.
A: But the GMs have to have all the books, right? So I shouldn't need to?
B: No, the rules say you have to have them and bring them to the table.
A: But that's a lot of books, and they're heavy.
B: It's not fair to make the GMs carry them FOR you. And it's the rule, so it doesn't matter anyway.
A: But why can't I just print out a copy of the relevant abilities from Herolab and just bring that? Herolab is better anyway, because it does all the calculations for you and there's no danger of calculation errors.
B: Yes, but it's the rule, and you have to have the book.
A: Okay, but the PRD has a lot of the rules. I could just bring a printout of that.
B: No, because the rule, you see..
A: Yeah, but what about d20pfsrd? I could print out that reference, and...
B: No - the rules say -
A: But I don't LIKE that!
_____
Please, for the love of all that is holy, stop presenting alternative strategies for players that are not within the rules as laid out in the Guide to Organized Play. As I posted earlier, you have four options:
1) Bring the book.
2) Bring an eCopy of the PDF that has your (or a family member's) email watermark.
3) Bring a printout of the relevant pages on the PDF that have your (or a family member's) email watermark.
4) Don't use something from a book you don't have and/or don't want to carry around.
If you want to argue to change the rules, then start arguing to change the rules. However, it's worth pointing out that that argument has been going on in this other thread for some time, and it seems unlikely to bear fruit.
|
|
Again, this is relying on IF HeroLab is working correctly. You are dependant on if they get all of the algorithms correct. I have personally seen somebody's HeroLab charcater apply Power Attack THRICE. You can say, "Yeah, I am using HeroLab and it makes all the calculations for me", but to make it where it was a -1/+9 per ATTACK? No, it changes the whole game.
|
|
As many have already said--and some have worded it better than I could--the OP is reading the requirements wrong. First off, Paizo would never require GMs to own copies of every book they have printed. Put simply, it would be an unfair monetary burden on the people running games, many of whom also buy the scenarios every week, which adds $4.00 USD to the total tab. Some people can't even recoup that monetary loss, so you're looking at roughly $208.00 USD a year spent by individuals to get scenarios for everyone to play. On top of that, you have the weight of books, and some people can't afford a laptop of tablet to use so they can't exactly count on PDFs for their needs.
|
|
I GM for lots of people who use HeroLabs, and I have seen it make LOTS of mistakes, both in the wording and calculation of abilities. More importantly, when you show me something from HeroLab, I have to assume that it's not showing me a clarified or errata'd or whatever version of the feat, trait, etc. Finally, when you purchase from HeroLab, you are not purchasing a product that funds Paizo in the same way. Personally, given the strife over HeroLab as an official source in PFS, I sort of wish that Paizo had never offered their resources to it to begin with.If someone shows you a physical book it certainly wont contain any errata or clarifications if it was a 1st or even subsequent publication. Herolab at least has a chance of having been updated.
A: But why can't I just print out a copy of the relevant abilities from Herolab and just bring that? Herolab is better anyway, because it does all the calculations for you and there's no danger of calculation errors.
B: Yes, but it's the rule, and you have to have the book.
I'm sorry if this is coming off as snarky, but seriously...
|
|
If it is going back to HeroLab, then it is still a 3PP. The 3PP is gaining revenue to let people use the product that they invented to suppliment the main books. They charge people to buy their DLC to expand the database that they have to suppliment the main books. Again, suppliment. You can try and say all you want about having HeroLab and how it is the bestest of best, but once the DM ask for proof of purchace for your super-awesome build that you made with HeroLab, you best bet that they will want to see where you got the information.
If I had the time/programming skill, and I made a program that let me create a character planner with all the data in it, and then print it out in a way that it looks like a real character sheet, would that still be legal if I do not have the books? No.
HeroLab is doing it as well. They are just charging you for their content.
I am not here to bash on anyone, just stating the facts in play.
|
|
It was Shadowcon in London.shadowcon is a non residential con, and is 2 slots each day.
the organiser Terry T set up all the games and tables on warhorn, so there was no need to bring 12 characters.Doesn't change the fact that there is no value gained from these rules (from the player's point of view) and the only people they penalise are those who take care to follow them.
Cheaters are still going to cheat, because they're cheats.
I don't understand your point.
The value is more from Paizo's point of view than anything: PFS players want stuff from books, they have to buy the books. That's value. It's value to me too, because it means Paizo makes more money and puts out more cool stuff.Players who don't follow the rules get penalized when a GM checks and doesn't let them use their cool stuff because they didn't buy the books it came from.
Cheaters might cheat anyway, but if you remove the rules, it won't be cheating to not have the books, so non-cheaters won't buy the books either.
I* have bought the books, and now have to lug them everywhere with me.
Who gains anything from this, there's no upside for me. The only outcomes are sprained shoulders or less attendence...
(...ultimately I* enjoy gaming with the people involved more than the system so the more and more restrictive the, err, restrictions get, the less incentive I* see to keep to them instead of other alternatives)
*I in this case is a somewhat hypothetical version.
I'm still interested if a dated photo of by bookshelf heaving under the weight of my Pathfinder hardbacks and scanned pages of the rules I need would be evidence enough...
No.... because you still need to have the reference documentation with you
In the other thread, just before GenCon, Mike did say that he would consider revisiting the rule on photocopies or PRD printouts.
At the time, the suggestion was that a VO (or game store coordinator) sign a special chronicle sheet stating that they had seen the physical book in question, with the player's name and PFS number inscribed in it.
In theory, this should address both goals of the rule (reference for the GM and sales for Paizo).
If that option would be put in place, would it be acceptable to those unhappy with the clarified rule?
Disclaimer: I have all of the Pathfinder RPG books, both physical and electronic (long time subscriber). I am not employed by Paizo, I do not have a close relationship with anyone at Paizo - I am simply a GM/player trying to find a solution that will be acceptable to most, from player to Paizo.
|
|
It was Shadowcon in London.shadowcon is a non residential con, and is 2 slots each day.
the organiser Terry T set up all the games and tables on warhorn, so there was no need to bring 12 characters.Doesn't change the fact that there is no value gained from these rules (from the player's point of view) and the only people they penalise are those who take care to follow them.
Cheaters are still going to cheat, because they're cheats.
I don't understand your point.
The value is more from Paizo's point of view than anything: PFS players want stuff from books, they have to buy the books. That's value. It's value to me too, because it means Paizo makes more money and puts out more cool stuff.Players who don't follow the rules get penalized when a GM checks and doesn't let them use their cool stuff because they didn't buy the books it came from.
Cheaters might cheat anyway, but if you remove the rules, it won't be cheating to not have the books, so non-cheaters won't buy the books either.
I* have bought the books, and now have to lug them everywhere with me.
Who gains anything from this, there's no upside for me. The only outcomes are sprained shoulders or less attendence...
(...ultimately I* enjoy gaming with the people involved more than the system so the more and more restrictive the, err, restrictions get, the less incentive I* see to keep to them instead of other alternatives)
*I in this case is a somewhat hypothetical version.
I'm still interested if a dated photo of by bookshelf heaving under the weight of my Pathfinder hardbacks and scanned pages of the rules I need would be evidence enough...
Got proof that that is your bookshelf?
But, again, the real reason for the rule, other than making sure Paizo gets their income stream, is to make sure that the rules for X ability/feat/spell/what-have-you are available to the GM so that she can make a proper adjudication.
1) Move action to activate and jump to 3rd round knowledge level
2) Standard action to activate Detect Evil, move action to then jump to 3rd round knowledge level
3) Other?
|
|
At the time, the suggestion was that a VO (or game store coordinator) sign a special chronicle sheet stating that they had seen the physical book in question, with the player's name and PFS number inscribed in it.
I'm not sold on the inscribing names and numbers in them (my pet hate to find such things in books) but yeah in principle the rest is fine, just like the Pathfinder Tales novels Chronicles.
|
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
|
I'm not sold on the inscribing names and numbers in them (my pet hate to find such things in books) but yeah in principle the rest is fine, just like the Pathfinder Tales novels Chronicles.
At the time, the suggestion was that a VO (or game store coordinator) sign a special chronicle sheet stating that they had seen the physical book in question, with the player's name and PFS number inscribed in it.
You're far from the only person who doesn't want to be forced to write PFS numbers (or anything) in books. There have been other suggestions made; I'm sure that once the residual craziness from GenCon is over the topic will be reconsidered, and I'd expect a solution to be found.
I am of the opposite point of view.
I have seen a few too many times no one wanting to claim the mangled book, all wanting the one in good condition.
I used to use fantasy art bookplates until they disappeared. Now I have a stamp that has "Library of xxx" that I use - inside front cover normally (unless there is nice art there, then I find another page for the stamp).
Different preferences.
But if there isn't a name and/or PFS number, how to you deal with the possibility that the same book will be used several times by individual members of a group of friends? How do you avoid the perception that that is happening?
|
|
Couldn't you achieve the same thing (ownership of the mangled book) by whacking a post it note inside the cover? unlikely to fall out, and doesn't mark the book.
People might re-use the book, they might also sell it to their mate when they don't play anymore, they might get it at a yardsale/ebay whatever.
A post it note can fall out (I have lost enough of them from books over the years to know).
I usually don't sell my gaming books. I do give them away to folks, and when I do, I add a note in the book indicating that it was gifted to them.
As a matter of fact, I have recently done so with two 5th printing of the CRB to two 9 year kids that play in a campaign that I run, for their birthdays. Knowing that I was going to do so, I picked up two new CRBs at GenCon for my eldest daughter (9 years old and a GM already) and myself.
If people sell it or give it away because they don't play anymore, why would they be concerned about having their name and old PFS number in it?
|
|
As John put above, I am certainly not the only person to feel this way, and frankly if you want to write in your book then that's cool, but I object to people insisting I write in mine. A pristine book is a pristine book, and I prefer not to deface them. My CRB I bought when it first came out is still in nice condition, heck even my orginal store bought 1st ed books on my bookshelf look neat (though yellowed with age since the 80's).
I really don't want to be gauche and write in them.
Likewise, PFS play only says you have the book in your possession, says nothing about proof of ownership.
|
Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
But if there isn't a name and/or PFS number, how to you deal with the possibility that the same book will be used several times by individual members of a group of friends? How do you avoid the perception that that is happening?
I'd be prepared to accept that possibility. As a GM, it wasn't my job to police intellectual property rules. Even as a VO, I don't have to require a standard of proof that would be acceptable in a court of law - if a player shows up with a copy of a book, and tells me that the book is his property, I'm going to believe him (unless it's obviously a library copy, or if I happen to know he's just borrowed it from one of the other players). I choose to trust my players in the absence of any evidence that convinces me they don't deserve my trust.
At the moment I'm considering requiring the physical book to be shown if the player wants to to use a photocopied page to fulfill the requirements of presenting a legal source; I'd sign the photocopy (and include my PFS number), and after that I'd be prepared to accept it at my tables. But that isn't official policy; I wouldn't expect other local GMs to necessarily accept my signature as proof that this was a true copy from a legal source. Campaign management will come up with definitive rules; if they require more than this, I'll defer to their requirements.
|
|
Matthew, it is important to remember paizo is a company that wants to make money, and pfs is probably a good way to do that.Sorry. I refuse to buy PDFs of books I own.
Perfectly within your right to refuse to buy PDFs, however, that means that you'll be carting the books with you for the characters that you're playing. As per the official documentation you need to provide the resource material for any *shines* that you choose for your characters.
|
|
Perfectly within your right to refuse to buy PDFs, however, that means that you'll be carting the books with you for the characters that you're playing. As per the official documentation you need to provide the resource material for any *shines* that you choose for your characters.
Muscle builds character. =)
|
|
Perfectly within your right to refuse to buy PDFs, however, that means that you'll be carting the books with you for the characters that you're playing. As per the official documentation you need to provide the resource material for any *shines* that you choose for your characters.Muscle builds character. =)
agreed
|
RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32, 2010 Top 8
|
It should make my next game interesting, since I am running Broken Chains (hopefully for a mostly Taldor, Chelaxian, Scarzini party)* and will likely be needing to reference the primary sources.
*