Is this spell strategy too hard?

[Megwayn]

Hello everyone, i need to seek some input on the following spell selection, for a forthcoming BBEG fight. I am trying to be sure that it will be a fair fight that will not leave the players with a bitter taste afterwards.
The BBEG will be a 19 (not 20 because that nat-20 on the initiative roll is too much) level Diviner Wizard and the party of 5 has an APL=16.
On the First round of combat, the BBEG will cast Time Stop, then Prismatic Wall, followed by a Wish that will emulate Control Winds, which will create a tornado pushing the players towards the Prismatic Wall with a Fortitude DC and a Strength Check as per the rules. If there is another round of Time-Stop, the BBEG will summon Greater Air Elementals that will try to push those who stood their ground onto the Wall.
I have already asked my players if they are ok with their opponents being played to their best potential, and they have no issues. Also the BBEG (who is more or less an ambiguous personality) will beg the PC's not to attack him and leave peacefully. How would you feel against these odds?

[Nearyn]

This seems entirely fine to me. I would not mind such an encounter. And since its the BBEG, there's a good chance the players have gotten some foreshadowing of the guy's powers, so they will probably make their own efforts to combat him as efficiently as possible.

In fact his strategy leaves him vulnerable, unless you tailor the terrain to give him the advantage, should he only get 2 rounds of casting on the timestop, he will only have the wall and the tornado, against 5 level 16 adventurers.

You might TPK them, but they might kill him in 1 or 2 rounds :)

But those are the vagueries of high-level play, eh? :D

-Nearyn

[jerrys]

couldn't the PC just grab his buddies and dimension door to the other side of the wall or something?

[Megwayn]

I am afraid the entire Region of has a permanent Dimensional Lock, none can teleport, not even the BBEG.

[Madclaw]

Slope the terrain enough that once they begin sliding down toward the wall it'll be difficult to stop. Also put the BBEG on a raised and hard to reach area.

[HaraldKlak]

It is always difficult to predict the outcome of a high-level battle.

But regarding your concern with "leaving the players with a bitter taste afterwards", as a player I am often put off by situations where my character die due to a single failed save before I've got a chance to act.
This might happen, and a player might be disappointed, so there is a definate risk.

On top of this, starting the battle by casting Time stop, Wish and other spells the players don't have access to, might be conceived as the GM saying "Look at all my toys".

[Megwayn]

@Haraldlak
Guilty as charged for the toys, but why wouldn't the powerful mage try to finish the fight quickly using his arsenal? I am not trying to defend anything here, i am just trying to be fair to the PC's and NPC's alike. The truth is i am having second thoughts and plan to re-ask my players if they want their victory to be clear, or partially supported by me.

[Nearyn]

Megwayn wrote:

@Haraldlak

Guilty as charged for the toys, but why wouldn't the powerful mage try to finish the fight quickly using his arsenal? I am not trying to defend anything here, i am just trying to be fair to the PC's and NPC's alike. The truth is i am having second thoughts and plan to re-ask my players if they want their victory to be clear, or partially supported by me.

Good on you, thinking of your players like that :)

When it comes to the fear of showing up the players with high-level magics, remember that to the players the BBEG just cast timestop, and that was it. :) They have no earthly clue that he just burned a wish to summon a tornado.

-Nearyn

[demontroll]

The wizard should have an illusion doppelganger (or better yet a Bard follower playing the 'part' of the wizard). Then the wizard is hiding behind some curtains, Wizard of Oz style. That should buy your BBEG another round.

Oh, and maybe he has an artifact that allows him to teleport, despite the Dimension Lock. Or at the very least, a contingency illusion spell or two to make it look like he teleported away, while he uses mundane ways to make his escape such as a secret trap door that locks behind him, and at the same time releases a captive monster for the group to fight.

[Megwayn]

demotroll said wrote:

The wizard should have an illusion doppelganger (or better yet a Bard follower playing the 'part' of the wizard). Then the wizard is hiding behind some curtains, Wizard of Oz style. That should buy your BBEG another round.

Oh, and maybe he has an artifact that allows him to teleport, despite the Dimension Lock. Or at the very least, a contingency spell or two to make it look like he teleported away.

Excellent idea, wouldn't a simulacrum work perfect for this, since the BBEG has knowledge of the party using true seeing and lifesense? But i am afraid that would result in an impossible scenario for the PC's, even if it would be totally reasonable for the BBEG to use such tactics. Still worried that many people will fall on the dreadful Prismatic wall,resulting in an inevitable death for the unlucky ones.

[dunelord3001]

Is there some reason he needs to defend the position? If not, why isn't he putting at least 1 spell into escape? A fly or such? I can sort of see blowing the gold on the Wish; he'll more then make that back if he runs off the party after killing even one of them in a way that lets him get their gear.

[notabot]

Considering I've had PCs just walk through a Prismatic wall at that level I don't see the problem. Its just a bunch of saves and damage effects.

[Rerednaw]

BBEG fights are supposed to be tough.
High level fights are supposed be tough.
Spellcaster BBEG are tough to broken.

No, your spell strategy is not too tough for a fight I'd throw...if anything I consider it on the easy side (IMHO).

Players seem to hate having "save or die" effects on them...but nothing seems to be wrong when they in turn do exactly the same thing. Starting at level 1 with Sleep, Color Spray, etc...

Really though I'd have the first few "BBEG" fights to be nothing more than simulacra/clones/dopplegangers/npcs in disguise, etc. Especially since you made your BBEG a Diviner. He's going to be extremely hard to find, catch, track down...and you'll never surprise him.

Well at least until there's a Communal Mind Blank on the party for starters.

For a more traditional vein you could always throw a Maximized Empowered Delayed Blast Fireball (or with Magical Lineage, Horrid Wilting instead) at CL20 (zillions of ways to boost caster level CL). It's only 120+10d6 damage (before any damage boosting tricks) but it's a fun way to say hello. And Gate in some high level help. You won't kill anyone in the party but odds are they will feel like they've been in a fight.

Personally I don't like using the Wish gun.

Oh and make sure that the BBEG (whether it's the real BBEG or a double) has a lackey or two with him to provide support. Preferably invisible and flying support.

And make sure he has a Contingency up. Again being a Diviner, he KNOWS what they typical tactics of the party will be. Even if he wasn't a Diviner, a high level BBEG should know of the party by reputation and spying/intelligence gathering of major threats.

[TheKingsportCockroach]

Depending on your party, your resident butal warrior type might just walk right through that prismatic wall and pop that wizard in the jaw. Yeah, its going to hurt him, but as long as he makes those saves the guy is toast. At least that's what happened in a similar encounter I had against a similar diviner wizard.

Also, side question: If there is a permanent dimensional lock, wouldn't that mean the "plane shifted to a random plane" effect of the prismatic wall not work?

Oh! And watch out for limited wish.

[Marshall Jansen]

As an FYI, the reason most players hate Save or Die when they get hit with them, while they see nothing wrong with using them:

In a game with 5 people playing, 4 PCs and one GM, every time a GM fails a Save or Die, the game continues for all 5 players. Every time a PC fails a save or die, they get to go make a sandwich and hope the rest of the party can finish off the bad guys.

Sitting out for an hour or more of the game because of a failed save sucks.

If your group can come up with ways for that *person* to stay engaged despite their character being useless, then this is less of an issue. A couple of bad saves can mean the difference between a 6 hour session of fun and a 6 hour session of misery.

Regarding the fight, Time Stop->Prismatic Wall->Wish is a cool effect. However, I would say that a BBEG tossing wish as a first round effect seems odd. Is he so unsure of himself that he's willing to blow 25k before he even sees what's going on? I think opening with the Air Elementals and saving the Wish for when things go to heck would make slightly more sense. This also saves the Wish for a 'what I need at the time' spell.

[Kayerloth]

A few thoughts:
- I see no problem facing a higher level spell caster who's using spells of greater level than I can. That's presumably been happening for around 15 or 16 levels now, in fact. :) That they are now Wishes and other 9th level stuff is just a sign of the CRs involved at this level. Wish would only tend to irritate me if I saw it a lot and more specifically if it was used to create effects beyond the use of mimicking other spells. And if I saw it used by an npc I would definitely expect to be able to do it myself if/when I got access to Wish.
- The Dimensional Lock should prevent the summoning of anything into the area unless it was there prior to the existence of the Lock. The BBEG shouldn't be able to summon Greater Air Elementals. Unless, of course, the area (an area) near the BBEG isn't under the Lock (which appears not to be the case). Or is summoning (vs calling) not blocked by the Lock?
- The Dimensional Lock normally has a visible effect so I would assume the players are aware of its presence having passed the 'emerald barrier'.
- When is the BBEG doing his begging? As a player I'm not seeing a chance to respond prior to facing getting pushed towards/into the Wall and once I do hit the Wall diplomacy time is off the table as a response without a REAL good reason for it. Obviously if the BBEG stops to allow effective parlay or response he's taking a risk.
- Unless the DC of the checked and blown away values increases as the strength of the wind continues to exceed the least size effected (which far as I can tell is RAW, though I'd be real tempted to homerule that one to continue to increase) I'd expect most of the PC's to not be rolling toward the Wall. Likewise if I were a player and voluntarily dropped prone I'd expect a reduction on the DC to avoid getting blown away. Ditto if I used magic to create (or something was available) to grab onto (and assuming my attempt to grab was successful).
- Even if the worst happens and my PC were to hit the Wall death is hardly automatic and in any case death is part of the game. And for most high level characters it can be more of an interruption than a real disaster (vs most of my items getting destroyed). I can raise/resurrect me easier than recover my stuff by 15th+ level. The party as a whole would have to be very unlucky to get wiped by the Wall. And like others have mentioned I've had players voluntarily go through a hostile Prismatic Effect though granted its only been the big bad tough melee oriented PC's at that APL.

(And several posts with good points occurred while I was slowly typing this)

[Rerednaw]

Marshall Jansen wrote:

As an FYI, the reason most players hate Save or Die when they get hit with them, while they see nothing wrong with using them:

In a game with 5 people playing, 4 PCs and one GM, every time a GM fails a Save or Die, the game continues for all 5 players. Every time a PC fails a save or die, they get to go make a sandwich and hope the rest of the party can finish off the bad guys.

Sitting out for an hour or more of the game because of a failed save sucks.

If your group can come up with ways for that *person* to stay engaged despite their character being useless...

Which is exactly what a GM with a single character/boss (BBEG) has to do all the time. Spread the love. ;) Though in all fairness I don't use them to begin with as a GM (unless it's Society play and scripted).

Again I don't like the Wish gun. In addition to the cost, it's too wide open. And usually there are better spells for the job.

Nothing wrong with Time Stop + Big Spell + Big Spell (my example was area damage plus summon* baddie). And then leave (sticking around while the party can act is too risky.)

*Though if you have an Area Dimensional Anchor up, you cannot summmon either. In which case, he had already done so earlier in the day in an area not subject to said effect after casting his divinations the night before "Should I summon some major help for tomorrow?"

[Tin Foil Yamakah]

Seems more than fair, especially considering that they are getting a warning as such.

Just for curiosities sake what is the party makeup?

[Adamantine Dragon]

There is nothing wrong with the spell selection or BBEG actions being suggested by the OP.

I would ask though, how the OP knows that the scenario will play out in such a way that the BBEG will have the opportunity to perform this activity?

Is the party going to just walk into this situation blindly and wait for "roll for initiative?" Does the party have any idea that they are walking into what appears to be effectively a trap? Does anyone in the party have some sort of contingency prepared for a situation like this?

I guess my honest reaction to this is to ask if your players are literally going to walk into a BBEG encounter in a group, fully exposed and just wait for "roll for initiative" and start rolling dice.

How common is that?

[Kayerloth]

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

There is nothing wrong with the spell selection or BBEG actions being suggested by the OP. <snip>

So is summoning Greater Elementals into the area warded by Dimensional Lock possible? Have I been handling it wrong all these years?

And yes if the PCs are walking blindly into the lair of a 19th level caster they deserve to get torn into. My own group (typically of 3) would have seen our Rogue scouting ahead most likely overwatched by my wizard using any of several potential divination spells (Arcane Eye and or Prying Eyes come to mind right off)

My response to the Wall and wind would be to erect a barrier of some sort between the party and the Wall probably while using Quickened spells or Rod of Quicken to get off other buffs if they aren't for some reason already going/attacks. Knowing Seamus (our third) the BBEG is trying to avoid melee by now as well ... probably an Empowered Vampiric Touch delivered via Greatsword by some large creature Seamus has polymorphed into (think Magus though that is not what he was as this was 3.5 not PF). Maybe the BBEG minions have slowed him down or maybe not but whatever his response it would be fairly "unsubtle".