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I've been playing PFS since GenCon 2010, and I only play at GenCon. (I play PF at home in two ongoing campaigns.) This was my first time GMing, and I had a couple of weird experiences.
Before I get into the weirdnesses, I want to say that, for the most part, this was a very positive experience, and literally until the final hour of my final slot, I was assuming I'd be volunteering next year. The other volunteers were great and friendly -- young dude named Justin was so enthusiastic it still makes me smile -- and the appreciation for being there to GM got me one spontaneous hug from a complete stranger who was a marshal. (I'm not a hugger, but I still thought it was really nice.)
Mild spoilers are possible for Wonders in the Weave I and II.
My first slot was Wonders I. This went really well, with four 7th-level pre-gens and a 5th-level boyfriend-girlfriend duo. The 5th-level characters were more powerful than the pre-gens, and the boyfriend tried a tiny bit to dominate the table, but it was mild. I think I'd have played with them both in my home game. The pre-gen players were great ... slow, because three of them had little rules-knowledge, but fun. We went to time, but (just) finished.
My second slot was Bonekeep 2. I was assigned a table ... but they didn't show. I still don't know what happened, but I was told they chickened out after JB read the disclaimer. I wish I knew! Disappointing.
My third slot (Sunday morning) was Wonders II, and I honestly expected this one to last all of three hours at most. There were two pre-gens, one simple hybrid druid, a mildly OP alchemist, and two brothers (I think) playing an archer and a more-or-less perma-wildshaped, quite OP, druid. The OP druid worked really hard to dominate the table, but after he got them into a bad tactical situation in their first fight, the other players smacked him down a little bit.
He sulked a bit the rest of the game and mildly challenged me on every rule or ruling. I would not play with that player in my home game, and he may be the first PFS player I'm run into for whom that's true. (I would play with his brother, who I think would be a fine player if separated.)
The weird part is that player didn't end up making me doubt GMing PFS again. That was, instead, the alchemist's player, who -- up to that point -- had been a fine player at the table.
In the fight with DV, near the end, DV had dropped the archer (with help from the archer failing a DC 11 Fort save and taking 4 Con damage), but had immediately been wounded within one hit of death. The scenario says she takes lizard-folk eggs hostage, but if she had moved to do that, she would have provoked (and likely died), so I had her ready an action to attack the fallen archer if the others didn't surrender.
After a long, tense, RPed negotiation, which I actually admired, the alchemist's player -- player, not PC -- snarled, "This is b~++$*~!, so I'm putting up my dice."
I asked what he meant and he said, "You can't coup-de-grace a character. That's b~~%@*+!. PFS doesn't allow that."
I said, "First, she hasn't done anything except threaten. Second, it wouldn't be a CDG, it would be an attack. Third, she's NE Aspis Consortium, willing to kill unborn lizard-folk young, and I find it hard to think it's unfair she'd threaten people trying to kill her, and I find it hard to believe the PFS would have a problem with that."
This went back and forth a couple of times, and I started to get really uncomfortable, because I was feeling like there's no way this ended positively for me. If this player was right, and a Neutral Evil Aspis Consortium member isn't allowed to threaten to kill a PC ... there's something wrong with PFS. But if he was wrong, and was just having a melt-down, well, he was the second problem player at a table I had ever seen in PFS, and they were both at a table I was GMing. Either way, it felt like I must be a crappy GM. Not a good feeling.
I ended up negotiating her surrender under the conditions that (1) She be allowed to leave alive with all the wealth she could carry, (2) She get to see what was behind the puzzle door. They agreed, but as soon as she dropped her weapon, they attacked her (with ray of enfeeblement initially), provoking a new init roll (she rolled a 1 and died, of course).
That last hour really left a sour taste in my mouth, and I honestly don't know where I stand. Any thoughts or comments welcome; I'm looking for honest criticism, not validation.
One final thought: Of 12 players, the six playing pre-gens were an absolute pleasure to GM for. They were engaged, interested, RP-oriented (but of course liking to roll init). I wonder if it's possible to ask to GM an all-newbie table?
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Actually the archer's player's brother (the OP wildshaped druid) was mostly fine. A little snarky, because I ruled that jumping toward DV would trigger her attack, but mostly fine. (The archer's player himself, although it's never enjoyable to be the bargaining chip in that situation, wasn't even snarky.)
It was the alchemist's player who (just plain out of the blue, unless you count his mildly OP build against him) got upset and had the tantrum.
Just to be clear.
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It should be understood that the GM has the final say...at least in home games. In PFS, I'm not sure. And at Gencon I'm really not sure. Did you have to sign an agreement or something stating that all rules would be followed to the letter? I mean, rules should be followed as closely as possible, but not to the point that it interrupts the ebb and flow of a game.
On top of that, I am not sure any rules were even broken! If anything, Pathfinders are supposed to be diplomatic and all that. They broke a PFS rule by attacking the Aspis Consortium agent after she struck a deal with the party.
Don't let this one player (or two) sour your experience.
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Jeff, you're not looking for validation, but reading your account of the events I don't see anything you did wrong.
An enemy NPC (Aspis, no less) would definitely be willing to threaten people who were trying to kill her. And if the opportunity arose (impossible until round 2 of combat, likely), it *is* PFS legal for an NPC to coup-de-grace a player character. Heck, it's written into the tactics in a few scenarios! It probably shouldn't be a priority move unless written into the tactics, but the alchemist's player was definitely out of line.
If you're feeling charitable, chalk it up to player burnout after a convention with long days and little sleep. They're fun, but exhausting, and sometimes it can be difficult to regulate emotions by the end.
And I have to say, thanks VERY much for stepping up to GM. It's folks like you that make the convention events so much fun, and I hope you don't let one crack-pot table sour you on the experience. I've GM'd a small local convention and a handful of local store game nights, and the community overall is a great one. :)
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Jeff,
From your account I don't see that you did anything wrong. NPCs aren't supposed to just roll over and play dead. They're supposed to represent real, living, breathing people with goals and motivations of their own. Aspis Consortium against Pathfinders? Yeah, they'll do anything. She should have insisted they toss away their weapons and spell component pouches before letting the archer go!
I will say that in Organized Play you sometimes run into players that have an unhealthy attachment to their characters and take any threat to the character as a personal affront. I've had more characters die that I can count overall, including 3 in PFS play (one of which wound up surviving to level 12 and is my only retired character so far). Heck, in one memorable scenario in another campaign, my friends and I were calling the GM out for softballing us on some rules after he'd managed to kill one PC per room and was feeling bad about it. We (I) insisted that he play by the rules and kill my PC.
All that aside, I don't know the other side of this disagreement, but everything seems kosher as you've explained it. I'm sorry you had a bad experience with your table, but please don't assume that all or even most of the players you'll run into will behave that badly.
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Jeff: I would echo what has been said above.
I would say however that you didn't ask for enough! in your face off with the hostage.
The Aspis agent could of picked up the unconscious party member and simply dragged them along as a human shield. The time to drop and run is when you have the best tactical position to do so. Normally Id pick some difficult terrain or the like. If the npc is in a position to do so, you can also look at the simple level 0 spell bleed. Its a very good intimidation method as a stabilized character could literally bleed to death while the party tries to bluff through a surrender. (I in fact used this in Citadel of Flame when the party retreated after a character dropped)
Im not sure about the seeing the Puzzle door bit though.
Also Ive never heard the expression 'Putting up my dice': is it an American saying?
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If she knew he wasn't already dead then everything is kosher, but how did she know the archer wasn't already dead?
Did you have her make the heal check, or have deathwatch up? (I haven't played or ran it myself so she may have a way) I ask because if she didn't have deathwatch up, make the heal check, or do something else to know the archer wasn't already dead. How would she know to threaten to kill him. This goes for the PCs as well, unless one of them had deathwatch up or made the heal check they wouldn't know he wasn't dead either. When I GM I try to limit this kind of thing, unconscious people are treated as dead unless a player/npc does something to know they aren't. HP talk is not allowed, players don't have health meters over their heads. Saying I'm hurting I need healing, etc is fine. Just not I am at 35 out of 114, or -5 out of 12 Con.
I know this is somewhat contradictory to what others have said (and even my own VC whom I have picked up some of my GM tricks from), but that is how I feel on it.
EDIT: Now as a players I wouldn't have had a conniption fit at the table about it. I would have waiting until afterward and talked to you about it.
An enemy NPC (Aspis, no less) would definitely be willing to threaten people who were trying to kill her. And if the opportunity arose (impossible until round 2 of combat, likely), it *is* PFS legal for an NPC to coup-de-grace a player character. Heck, it's written into the tactics in a few scenarios!
I seem to recall Mike saying NPCs should not coup-de-grace unless it is written in the tactics. That doesn't mean they won't attack an unconscious player, or be ruthless in trying to kill players. Just that the coup-de-grace save or die attack is off limits.
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As Coup De Grace is a full round action and Jeff specifically stated that's not what his npc was trying to , thats not particularly relevant.
This surrender or X gets it was done to my group in Cyphermage Dilemma. My Paladin would not let the prisoner suffer anymore than they were then , so he let the baddies go and told the rest of the group they should do so also.
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As Coup De Grace is a full round action and Jeff specifically stated that's not what his npc was trying to , thats not particularly relevant.
This surrender or X gets it was done to my group in Cyphermage Dilemma. My Paladin would not let the prisoner suffer anymore than they were then , so he let the baddies go and told the rest of the group they should do so also.
My comment wasn't directed at Jeff but at clover, hence why that post was quoted. I do agree that if the NPC knew the player wasn't dead yet then the tactics he used were spot on and great thinking. My only thing is unless the NPC did something to know this it wouldn't know that was a option to take. Now she could still make the threat but it would be a bluff role with an opposed sense motive. But again that is just me.
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I would have done the same exact thing in your place honestly. I would however have said that GM has final ruling. End of discussion. Walk away if you want.
I have had this happen sometimes to home games. If I know the rule, I am very assertive. As a GM sometimes you simply have to say, "I am GM. This is the ruling. Walk away if your unhappy." especially in PFS where time is indeed limited.
Also, depending on the alignment, I would have probably put a note in the chronicle sheet that they could have a possible alignment shift. Not even chaotic good characters in my opinion would just up and murder a person after negotiations were settled and no one else was hurt.
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My comment wasn't directed at Jeff but at clover, hence why that post was quoted. I do agree that if the NPC knew the player wasn't dead yet then the tactics he used were spot on and great thinking. My only thing is unless the NPC did something to know this it wouldn't know that was a option to take. Now she could still make the threat but it would be a bluff role with an opposed sense motive. But again that is just me.
Sauce for the goose. Did the PCs make heal checks or have deathwatch up? How did they know the archer wasn't already dead? Threatening to hit him again and ensure he's dead is a perfectly legitimate tactic on the Aspis agent's part even if she didn't know he was still alive as the PCs probably didn't have a (non-meta) way to know, either. It would have been perfectly in character to say, "I'm perfectly happy to stand here and negotiate your surrender to me while your friend bleeds to death."
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Thanks, folks. It is a great relief that an AC member making threats like this isn't against PFS rules or guidelines.
I did consider making an even stronger, more ruthless, demand, but it seemed very Belloq-like that DV would want to see what was behind the puzzle door, and I figured a more reasonable demand would be more likely to end the stalemate.
I also do think, as suggested, that late-con fatigue may have been a factor in the alchemist's player's behavior. I know that even in my home games, when I'm exhausted I'm snippier than usual. So I'm gonna give the benefit of the doubt.
Kintrik's question is valid, and I did actually require her to make a Heal check (I decided on a DC of 15, ad hoc, and rolled a 17 on the d20), which she made. (I wouldn't feel too terrible, though, even if I had not, because the downed PC's player was announcing exact HP status to the rest of the table, which IMO isn't exactly kosher, even if it's understandable.) At one point I'd also had her make a check to recognize the wildshaped druid as shapeshifted, based on size, gear, and behavior. The player objected, but his brother quietly told him that he'd actually seen me make the check.
As far as alignment goes, I strongly considered noting an infraction on the Lawful PCs' chronicle sheets, but we were very late (I had earlier offered to stay after end-of-slot, and they had all enthusiastically accepted), and I just wasn't sure I was within PFS rules and guidelines with regard to DV's actions, so I passed on it.
Thanks again.
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Bad players are an unfortunate reality in organized play. Thankfully, they are in the minority.
In the situation you describe, I'd explain my ruling, listen to their input once, and then move on. If they continue to argue -- thereby disrupting the game for everyone -- then they're free to excuse themselves from my table. But I know from personal experience that that is easier said than done.
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Even though I wasn't able to go the GenCon (this year, or any year, yet), I have to agree with everyone's responses here. Looks like you did everything correctly, Jeff!
To put another spin on it, I was playing a recent adventure, and was in a situation where the BBEG had dominated one PC, confused another, a third was at very low HP (due to the dominated barbarian), and my character failed his save against a Hold Person. The BBEG then moved up to me (her invisibility finally failing), drawing her rapier.
I can just imagine how Munny's eyes must have grown wide, as he knew what was coming next. In a supreme show of effort and willpower, he shrugged off the Hold Person by rolling a nat-20 on his next round (before the CDG came down).
The GM (a V-L at that) was already apologizing for what he was going to do, because the tactical situation was if Munny (a gunslinger/inquisitor) would have been able to continue fighting, she knew she was pretty well done for. Her only option was to kill Munny as quickly as possible, and then get the heck out of dodge.
Even though I have grown fond of Munny, I told the GM that I understood what he was doing, and while I was glad it did not come down to that, would not have been angry at him doing that. At this point, the rogue (PC #4) was returning to the fight, PC #2 (the barbarian) was dead, and PC#3 (Valeros) had a 25% chance of attacking her. Munny had a 100% chance of attacking her, if he got the chance!
I did have enough prestige available to be raised, which didn't hurt matters.
Basically, what I am trying to say is that while CDG is frowned upon, there are tactical situations that still merit it. Also, in this case, the Bad Gal was threatening to kill the downed PC, without a CDG. It is too bad that Pathfinder does not have a "Cover" maneuver (please correct me if I am wrong!), so that the players could see that if they acted in a hostile manner, their teammate would be shot again.
So, did you do anything wrong? Absolutely not (unless, as Jonathan said, you probably let them off to easily in the negotiations! For sure, their actions were dishonorable (and non-lawful)... and in this case, I would actually argue down-right evil! After all, their attacking after a successful negotiation (metagaming, really), shows an intent to kill a retreating opponent... really, to murder said opponent. And murder has been ruled as evil.
I don't have a problem with you not noting the evil act on the Chronicle, just something that you should be aware of in the future (when you are not worn out!).
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It is too bad that Pathfinder does not have a "Cover" maneuver (please correct me if I am wrong!), so that the players could see that if they acted in a hostile manner, their teammate would be shot again.
No CM for it but there is the Bodyguard tree. Combat Reflexes -> Bodyguard -> In Harm's Way
So it would go, you go stand next to downed member. When the attack goes off you use bodyguard to boost their AC with aid another, then if it hits you can take the damage.
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Kintrick, you have it backwards. For example, in Heo System 5ER, the cover maneuver let's you roll your attack when you declare it, and let it go off t any time before your next phase. The BBEG would "cover" th downed PC, which is obvious to everyone. PC moves archer dies.
It would be n attack action
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Kintrick, you have it backwards. For example, in Heo System 5ER, the cover maneuver let's you roll your attack when you declare it, and let it go off t any time before your next phase. The BBEG would "cover" th downed PC, which is obvious to everyone. PC moves archer dies.
It would be n attack action
That, actually, is what the GM's stated Readied action was, without the players knowing, in advance, whether the attack roll would be good enough to hit.
Then again, in that situation, it is likely that only a nat 1 would miss.
Helpless, so Dex 0, prone, so -4 to AC, yeah.
And, as mentioned, attacking her after negotiating terms, unless she did something to negate the terms, would warrant a verbal warning with infraction notice if done.