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Can you create pit right in front of a locked door, climb down the pit, and then climb up on the other side of the door in the other room?
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Unless someone can demonstrate a ruling on this, as a GM, I'd rule No on your query.
Since Create Pit makes a pit in another dimension, and since you cannot see the other side of the door, I'd rule that you made a 10'x10'xX (Where X is 10'+10'/2 caster levels, maximum 30') with a 10'x5' opening in front of the door.
Creative, I'll give you that, but unless someone else can either sway me or provide PFS precedent, if you were at my table, I would not allow it. As a player, I'd also question your methods, but nevertheless applaud your ingenuity.
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For your standard 5' door no, the spell says you need sufficient room. If you have a 10' door, I wouldn't see why not.
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Perhaps if you had shovels and pick axes, then sure. If your method to getting to the other side of a locked door makes logical sense, then it's ok in my book.
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Personally, I'd get the rogue to pick the lock.
Also, it's a DC 25 climb check to climb back out, and if the spell ends before you can get out something bad might happen.
Points for ingenuity, seems a little more trouble then it's worth though.
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I would allow it, though you had better have a plan for getting out the other side of the pit. I would then giggle when you climbed out, the pit disappeared, and you realized that you are now trapped on this side of the locked door, with no quick way to retreat if anything went wrong, and no idea of whats in here with you...
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The pit is extradimensional space and entire unto itself. It does not connect to anything. E.g. if you have 2 pits next to each other, you cannot go from one to the other. You cannot "dig" through the walls of the pit, use "merge into stone", "passwall", or anything like that to get out. Aside from the spell requiring "sufficient space" (20'x20'), casting it "under" a door, would simply have you look up from the bottom and see the area you came from, as it's not a physical pit, but extradimensional.
If you cast it on a 20'x20' table, you could look down 20-30' into the pit and see a bottom that far away, but if you looked under the table, you would see open space through to the other side of the table.
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Does it need to line up with existing grid lines?
if not, can you create pit rotated by 90 degrees, so that you could create it with one corner under a door?
The spell states that "you must create the pit on a horizontal surface of sufficient size" but doesn't say what that size is...the spell seems to effect the area next to the pit also, so, does it require an area of 20' x 20' (the pit and the sloped edges)... or just 10' x 10' (the area of the pit itself)?
Also, it says "...the edges of the pit are sloped, ..." would that also include the squares at a diagonal to the pit?
XOOX
OPPO
OPPO
XOOX
If the "P" squares are pit, then the "O" squares are "edges" - but are the "X" squares also "edge" squares?
The entire area is 20x20, not 10x10.
The corner squares would be sloped as well.
There is no rule stating it needs to align with the grid, but it sure negates a heck of a lot of confusion if you keep it aligned to the grid.
Provided there is enough room to cast it, you could absolutely bypass a door in this fashion (as previously stated, you would probably need a very big door).
The DC to climb out is not 25. You have walls to brace against, and a corner, which drops the climb DC significantly.
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The entire area is 20x20, not 10x10.
The corner squares would be sloped as well.
There is no rule stating it needs to align with the grid, but it sure negates a heck of a lot of confusion if you keep it aligned to the grid.
Provided there is enough room to cast it, you could absolutely bypass a door in this fashion (as previously stated, you would probably need a very big door).
The DC to climb out is not 25. You have walls to brace against, and a corner, which drops the climb DC significantly.
What makes you think the area is 20x20? and if it is, does that mean it can't be targeted in a 10' wide hallway?
Why would the corner squares be sloped?
In order to cast it under a door/thru a doorway wouldn't the doorway have to be at least 15' wide (rotated so that the corner of the pit is under the doorway, putting one of the diagonal squares on the other side of the door)?
It does state that "the pit's coarse stone walls have a Climb DC of 25" - are we assuming that that does not include the "–5 Climbing a corner where you can brace against perpendicular walls" modifier? When would that modifier NOT apply? As all locations in the pit have perpendicular walls? Also, the "-10 Climbing a chimney (artificial or natural) or other location where you can brace against two opposite walls" modifier likely only applies to Large creatures, as the opposite wall is 10' away (and the term "chimney" would imply something much closer).
edit: Drat! typing too slow! Partial-Ninja'd!
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I'm pretty sure a 2-3' gap at the top would be plenty for me to climb through. One 5'x5' square per person is an approximation at best, and actually the squeezing rules would probably allow it too.
(Joke: 'In medieval London, five people would live in a 10'x10' room,' said the historian. Pathfinder player: 'That's crazy talk! They wouldn't even be able to all stand up at once!')
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The pit opens up into an extradimensional space. But the top part is open to this world. This is on both sides of the door. If you can make the climb check you can get to the other side.
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But the first 5' around the pit is the "slope", so to get it under the door you would need to have an entire square (across a diagonal at that) on the other side of the door, before you even got an inch of the pit under the door.
which makes me wonder... if part of the slope is on the other side of the door... would someone who missed their Reflex save slide to the door, but NOT fall into the pit? would they fall prone?
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The defined area of the spell - the part which needs to be on the ground - is a 10'x10' square. You can place this area up against a wall.
Effect 10-ft.-by-10-ft. hole, 10 ft. deep/2 levels
No, you cannot use it to get under a door, you need sufficient room as per the spell's description.
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There's two ways you can try it;
1) Place the 10x10 pit against the door, and then try to climb out on the other side on the sloping side. Might require an Escape Artist check to wriggle through the gap.
2) If the door is at least10ft wide, you can center the pit's center right at the door. From reading the rules on targeting area spells, I get the impression you need LOS to the center of the area you're targeting, not necessarily to the whole area.
If you'd allow someone to put a pit under a locked door, would you also allow them to put it under a wall? It doesn't seem much different to me.
No, I'd consider the wall attached to the floor, and thus the area wouldn't be a horizontal surface anymore, so not a valid target.
As would I.
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Can you create pit right in front of a locked door, climb down the pit, and then climb up on the other side of the door in the other room?
I'd say no because of the LoE rule:
You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
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An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.
Since most pits are 10"x10", if the door is 10" wide, then "maybe" you could. Problem is, you don't have full line of effect if you try to place half of the pit on the "other side" of the door, unless you can somehow see what's on the other side.
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@Smoke & Mirrors: the entry for the spell states:
Effect 10-ft.-by-10-ft. hole, 10 ft. deep/2 levels
So that's the "primary" area of effect. There needs to be sufficient space for the 10x10 area. The sloped area around it is more like a side effect.
If you were to consider the sloped area part of the spell's area of effect, that would also mean that anyone standing on the edge as it is cast might immediately fall in;
Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space.
But it appears the spell actually goes out to make a clear contrast between the area of the pit, and the area around it, which becomes clear if you look at the context:
Any creature standing in the area where you first conjured the pit must make a Reflex saving throw to jump to safety in the nearest open space. In addition, the edges of the pit are sloped, and any creature ending its turn on a square adjacent to the pit must make a Reflex saving throw with a +2 bonus to avoid falling into it.
So the sloped edges are in addition to the area of the pit itself.
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But I can't wrong you for asking the question. It's a bit weird to have a spell affect an area with sloped edges, and then not count those affected areas as part of the area of effect.
I'd say no because of the LoE rule:You must have a clear line of effect to any target that you cast a spell on or to any space in which you wish to create an effect. You must have a clear line of effect to the point of origin of any spell you cast.
But the point of origin for an area would be the center. I know that our group frequently puts fireballs up against walls. If you can do that, then the point of origin for the pit should also be the center of the 10x10 square. If you do it up against a wall, it's a smaller pit.
What makes you think the area is 20x20? and if it is, does that mean it can't be targeted in a 10' wide hallway?
Probably this:
In addition, the edges of the pit are sloped, and any creature ending its turn on a square adjacent to the pit must make a Reflex saving throw with a +2 bonus to avoid falling into it.
Personally, I would say the area of effect is 10x10, the sloped surface is in addition to the stated AoE. The spell can be cast in a 10x10 corridor, but the slope will not extend under walls, doors, or anything else that would normally block line-of-effect.
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so...
is the area of effect of a Pit 10'x10' or 20'x20'...
sounds like there is some disagreement
The spell stats 10x10 and then goes on to states the adjacent squires are sloped.
Sine the line item entry for AoE is 10x10, that is the number I go with for where characters are allowed to cast the spell.
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I would allow it.
Then I'd make that trick available to thieves and assassins who target the party.
Why is the door even a factor? What's the difference between [casting the spell under a 10'-wide door], and [casting the spell, and then placing a vertically standing 10'-wide door over the middle of the hole]? In the second scenario, would anyone already inside the pit suddenly only have access to one side if they managed to climb out?
I see no reason to not allow it. It's a pretty heavy cost to circumventing a door when Disable Device exists for free, but if you lost your thieve's tools, and need to get past that door NOW, then hey, nice thinking.
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Yeah, I'm generally not one to punish clever thinking either. That just leads to boring games.
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And this is yet another example of the inherent problems with the "RPG as simulation" paradigm.
No, you shouldn't be able to use Create Pit to bypass a door. From a game-balance perspective, it's an unintended use of a spell that is arguably already "too good" in comparison to other 2nd level spells.
However, the pretense of simulation naturally invites the question "why *can't* I use it this way?" -- a question to which there is no good answer. The only viable response is "because magic," which is, of course, deeply disappointing in the context of a simulationist system.
(And no, the presence of dragons doesn't mean everyone should suddenly accept that physics don't work. Therein lies madness. :P )
Yeah, I'm generally not one to punish clever thinking either. That just leads to boring games.
I also prefer to reward cleverness. The problem is that, taken to it's logical conclusion, cleverness invalidates much of the implied setting (if not the rules themselves). D&D/Pathfinder only really "work" if you don't examine things too closely.
My $.02.
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Why is the door even a factor? What's the difference between [casting the spell under a 10'-wide door], and [casting the spell, and then placing a vertically standing 10'-wide door over the middle of the hole]? In the second scenario, would anyone already inside the pit suddenly only have access to one side if they managed to climb out?
I see no reason to not allow it. It's a pretty heavy cost to circumventing a door when Disable Device exists for free, but if you lost your thieve's tools, and need to get past that door NOW, then hey, nice thinking.
From a rules standpoint it calls out a horizontal surface, and it opens into an extradimensional space, which is not even on the same plane, while the room behind the door is.
Passwall which is a higher level spell would work.<---And having lower level spells completely replace higher level spells should be avoided when possible, generally speaking.
edit:By strict RAW passwall only works on walls, but phasedoor works, and it is a 7th level spell.
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Why is the door even a factor? What's the difference between [casting the spell under a 10'-wide door], and [casting the spell, and then placing a vertically standing 10'-wide door over the middle of the hole]? In the second scenario, would anyone already inside the pit suddenly only have access to one side if they managed to climb out?
I see no reason to not allow it. It's a pretty heavy cost to circumventing a door when Disable Device exists for free, but if you lost your thieve's tools, and need to get past that door NOW, then hey, nice thinking.
In one scenario you have line of effect at the time the spell is cast.
In the other scenario, you do not.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why is the door even a factor? What's the difference between [casting the spell under a 10'-wide door], and [casting the spell, and then placing a vertically standing 10'-wide door over the middle of the hole]? In the second scenario, would anyone already inside the pit suddenly only have access to one side if they managed to climb out?
I see no reason to not allow it. It's a pretty heavy cost to circumventing a door when Disable Device exists for free, but if you lost your thieve's tools, and need to get past that door NOW, then hey, nice thinking.
Because this is the rules forum and not the 'this would be a cool way of doing something even if it is not within the rules' forum.
The discussion in the rules forum is not whether or not it should be allowed at someone's table but whether it is within the rules to do so.
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And this is yet another example of the inherent problems with the "RPG as simulation" paradigm.
No, you shouldn't be able to use Create Pit to bypass a door. From a game-balance perspective, it's an unintended use of a spell that is arguably already "too good" in comparison to other 2nd level spells.
However, the pretense of simulation naturally invites the question "why *can't* I use it this way?" -- a question to which there is no good answer. The only viable response is "because magic," which is, of course, deeply disappointing in the context of a simulationist system.
So you can't use Rope Trick to climb to a ledge? A fireball can never start a grass fire? At some point you have to find a balance between the rules as written and adapting things to reality.
From a rules standpoint it calls out a horizontal surface, and it opens into an extradimensional space, which is not even on the same plane, while the room behind the door is.
Passwall which is a higher level spell would work.<---And having lower level spells completely replace higher level spells should be avoided when possible, generally speaking.
edit:By strict RAW passwall only works on walls, but phasedoor works, and it is a 7th level spell.
Passwall and phase door do not require a 10' wide door to be there. They can go through anything. The pit also requires a climb check or flight or levitation or filling it with water and a swim check. Thus this spell is strictly worse than the higher level spells. As it should be.
No. Not because of any rules saying you can't, but because the resulting argument over what the climb DC to climb through that 10' pit is would break the forums.
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well... then the addition to ruling that a pit can be created under a door - half on one side and half on the other, leads to two questions...
1) Can it be created thru a wall that was added to an area - like thru a wall of stone? - half on one side and half on the other. (and would the Wall of Stone also divide the Pit?)
2) What other spells can be cast to effect both sides of a closed door?
Entangle?
Stinking Cloud? (or any other clouds?)
Fireball?
Stonecall?
Wall of Stone? (or other walls)?
And this is yet another example of the inherent problems with the "RPG as simulation" paradigm.
No, you shouldn't be able to use Create Pit to bypass a door. From a game-balance perspective, it's an unintended use of a spell that is arguably already "too good" in comparison to other 2nd level spells.
However, the pretense of simulation naturally invites the question "why *can't* I use it this way?" -- a question to which there is no good answer. The only viable response is "because magic," which is, of course, deeply disappointing in the context of a simulationist system.
(And no, the presence of dragons doesn't mean everyone should suddenly accept that physics don't work. Therein lies madness. :P )
No, this argument doesn't make sense.
Knock and gaseous form are both second level spells, but each would be strictly superior in this scenario in every way.
What create pit does is allow versatility at the expense of convenience, safety, and extra investment: if you can't beat the climb DC (either by magic expenditure or skill investment), you're stuck in the pit. If you have the skill investment, that's something you could have put elsewhere. If you expend magic, than you've used a very valuable resource to do a trick, or you have so many resources that it's irrelevant, and making the door "a thing" is nothing other than a resource waste.
The main issue, here, I think, is Line of Effect and Area.
The easy answer to LoE has been covered - the center of the spell is the important part, not the whole, so that part should be fine.
Similarly, the easy answer to Area has been covered: it's a square hole (10 ft. by 10 ft.) and thus must be able to be reasonably established on a flat surface.
Most dungeons and buildings are not going to be that accommodating.
Making sure this trick doesn't work on huge, palatial mansions and grand places is as easy as having a pole - big or small, size is irrelevant - sticking out of a hole 9 feet from the doors - or 9 feet from each other, if you want to have two. There is no way for the spell to resolve itself, as the "flat surface" is not available. Heck, technically speaking, just having the drilled hole there would be enough, but that's probably quibbling.
As for, "'Why?' 'Magic!'" - that's actually the perfect answer, in a simulationist sense.
"The arcane formula for rewriting reality is extraordinarily complex, and, while hypothetical forms could be built to accommodate such irregularities, you'd have to research a spell that explicitly centers itself in a manner that takes those irregularities in relatively precise measurements into account. Otherwise, the formula fails to resolve itself due to unaccounted for fluctuations."
"But what about smaller irregularities?"
"Oh! I'm glad you asked: all magical formulae are built with the assumption of minor irregularities. There is an exacting threshold, however, the most readily available versions - the ones "that work" in other words - are already calibrated to adjust within those parameters."
"But can't you just redefine the parameters?"
"Yup! That's why you have the potential variant I mentioned above; it'd be, 'create pit with a pole sticking out, like, two feet from the center, to the relative left of the caster on the outside of the pit' and it would take a few weeks."
"But can't you just build it to ignore more variants?"
"Of course! But it takes more time, energy, and difficulty, or a degree of precision no one really wants to expend. That's what higher level spells - or, allies - are for!"
"Magic is dumb and unsatisfying."
"Would you like to play d20 modern, or, perhaps, a rogue?"
... or whatever. It's only a point of immersion-breaking if you allow it to be.
(There are certainly simulation-breaking elements in the game. "Magic has quirky limits." is not one of those for most. Most such elements come from trying to make the game more fiddely-gamist in a vain quest for balance and over-adhehence to the minutiae of certain RAW and not others, rather than allowing the rules to act as a general frame of guidework; but each person has their own breaking point, so.) :)
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Probably worth noting that this isn't an area spell, so the area rules don't govern it in the slightest. This is an effect spell.
Claiming this spell has an area is about as accurate as saying the same about summon monster.
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Knock and gaseous form are both second level spells, but each would be strictly superior in this scenario in every way.
Knock requires a caster level check against the DC of the lock with a +10 bonus. Against a high-DC lock (or a trap that's triggered by opening the door), the pit is probably better if it can be used at all.
Gaseous Form is third level spell that only allows one person to get through the door.
So you can't use Rope Trick to climb to a ledge? A fireball can never start a grass fire? At some point you have to find a balance between the rules as written and adapting things to reality.
Actually, in both those cases, I believe the spell descriptions explicitly say you can do those things. Which speaks to my point: Finding a balance is entirely subjective.
Take create pit. Assuming you do allow it to bypass doors, would it not be reasonable to assume that people who design buildings would "adapt to reality" to compensate? Since, the RAW explicitly tells us how many wizards there are per capita who are capable of casting 2nd level spells (hint: A lot), we can infer that using create pit to go under doors would be a fairly regular occurrence if said building designers did not adjust.
Look, I get that you can just make a choice and go with it, and that's fine. But it kinda misses the point: You're not really "simulating" any more -- you're just picking a point to start ignoring stuff for convenience sake that makes sense to you. Your point of "balance" is completely personal and arbitrary.
well... then the addition to ruling that a pit can be created under a door - half on one side and half on the other, leads to two questions...
1) Can it be created thru a wall that was added to an area - like thru a wall of stone? - half on one side and half on the other. (and would the Wall of Stone also divide the Pit?)
2) What other spells can be cast to effect both sides of a closed door?
Entangle?
Stinking Cloud? (or any other clouds?)
Fireball?
Stonecall?
Wall of Stone? (or other walls)?
And what is the difference between a door and a wall, anyway? Being stuck to the ground? What if one is jammed? Or is it intention...does the spell somehow "know" whether a partition is intended as a door?
Again, this is why the argument that there is one reasonable answer is so shaky. People should pick what makes sense to them and go with it...but they shouldn't claim their way is the "realistic" one.
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If making the party sweat to open a door is your idea of challenging a level 3+ party, then I think you're just setting your goals too low.
At low levels spending your highest-level spell slot as well as a lot of tricky climbing, isn't getting anything for free. (And remember it only works if the door is 10ft wide at least.)
At high levels a regular door is just kindling waiting for the barbarian to happen anyway. Doing it this way is the loooong way around.
So much for "balance".
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And this is yet another example of the inherent problems with the "RPG as simulation" paradigm.
No, you shouldn't be able to use Create Pit to bypass a door. From a game-balance perspective, it's an unintended use of a spell that is arguably already "too good" in comparison to other 2nd level spells.
However, the pretense of simulation naturally invites the question "why *can't* I use it this way?" -- a question to which there is no good answer. The only viable response is "because magic," which is, of course, deeply disappointing in the context of a simulationist system.
So you can't use Rope Trick to climb to a ledge? A fireball can never start a grass fire? At some point you have to find a balance between the rules as written and adapting things to reality.
From a rules standpoint it calls out a horizontal surface, and it opens into an extradimensional space, which is not even on the same plane, while the room behind the door is.
Passwall which is a higher level spell would work.<---And having lower level spells completely replace higher level spells should be avoided when possible, generally speaking.
edit:By strict RAW passwall only works on walls, but phasedoor works, and it is a 7th level spell.
Passwall and phase door do not require a 10' wide door to be there. They can go through anything. The pit also requires a climb check or flight or levitation or filling it with water and a swim check. Thus this spell is strictly worse than the higher level spells. As it should be.
I was saying they bypass physical barriers, and using a lower level spell to get the same thing is a bad precedent.
Was that not obvious? If not, what did you think my point was?|
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If making the party sweat to open a door is your idea of challenging a level 3+ party, then I think you're just setting your goals too low.
At low levels spending your highest-level spell slot as well as a lot of tricky climbing, isn't getting anything for free. (And remember it only works if the door is 10ft wide at least.)
At high levels a regular door is just kindling waiting for the barbarian to happen anyway. Doing it this way is the loooong way around.
So much for "balance".