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It is a terrible success rate if it is all or nothing, like a spell that either succeeds or fails.For such a limited resource, and considering how much effort was put into it... Still terrible. It's too little return for the investment.
Imagine if a Fighter only had a 25% chance of hitting enemies with high AC and a 33% chance of hitting enemies with mediocre AC.
Imagine a Paladin whose Smite Evil (or even just his Divine Bond) only has a 25% chance of working against Undead, Evil Outsiders and Dragons, and only a 33% chance to affect other evil creatures (Hey, it's just a bonus, right? You don't lose damage or anything if it doesn't work!).
Imagine a Inquisitor whose Judgement has only a 25~33% chance of actually working. It'd be terrible, and Judgements last much longer than a single attack!
Imagine a Ranger who only succeeds on 25% of difficult Survival/Perception/Stealth checks and a 33% chance of succeeding on easy ones.
Stunning Fist would be much better if you could at least declare its use after you confirmed a hit. Then you'd only have to worry about the saving throw, which is already a fair limitation.
But again, if it fails you still get the attack.
It is only "a" class feature. Flurry is much more central than stunning fist.
And when it works, it is better than a crit, better than bane, arguably even better than smite.
It removes an enemy for a full round and leaves them vulnerable in the process.
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I think you were wrong to dismiss something because it only works, worst case, 25% of the time.Except crits don't. With a 15-20 at level 12 you get three attacks. You only get stunning fist once.
Do you really not get that?Less insults please. I could say the same thing to you. From what I understand your willing to attack minor things, relate loosely related ones, and stuff words in peoples mouths and infer their character and ideas without actually asking them nicely to clarify. Makes you hard to talk to.
I love how you start with "less insults" and then proceed to insult me...
But again, do you really not get it, or do you just not want to admit that something that removes an enemy from battle for a round 1/4th of the time without reducing attack bonus or damage, or more is pretty useful.
I think you were wrong to dismiss something because it only works, worst case, 25% of the time.
I'd not call it "worst case" when the character did all he could to boost to-hit and Stunning Fist's saving DC.
I used criticals to illustrate something that works at the same rate, with less impact, but isn't something you would dismiss.
Do you really not get that?
To be fair, ciretose, this not a fair comparison at all.
Comparing it to critical is not a fair comparison. Not only critical hits are unlimited, you also get a free chance every time you make an attack. So even if you only have a 20/x2 crit range/multiplier, that's already about an 80% chance with TWF/FoB.
Sutnning Fist, OTOH, can not be used more than 1 per round.
@Lemmy -Your right. Stunning is better than a criting.
If it works... Sure. But it rarely does. And that's with lots of investment.
Uh...you posted a base monk. You did nothing to boost.
How do you raise your chance of successful Stunning Fist attempts? You raise your Monk's to-hit and Wisdom as high as you can. It's what I did.
Lower you Wisdom modifier and/or to-hit just a bit, and you lower your chance to stun your target as well.
Look at Stunning Steve's AC, saves and HP. He won't be attempting Stunning Fists for long... I'd say it's a miracle he even reached 10th level.
I love how you start with "less insults" and then proceed to insult me...
Its what you do all the time. You did it right here by saying that me saying stunning fist is unreliable means that I don't like crits. The two are unrelated. Then you keep inferring I'm some sort of idiot who just doesn't get it. Am I supposed to take that nicely? Or the condescending post?
But again, do you really not get it, or do you just not want to admit that something that removes an enemy from battle for a round 1/4th of the time without reducing attack bonus or damage, or more is pretty useful.
I didn't say it was terrible, I said it was unreliable. 1/4 of the time is a terrible percentage yes! Sure it doesn't cost you anything, that's why I don't say its awful. It is however terrible if you ever want to bank on it. 25% chance to save your life is terrible for instance, but 25% chance to do something extra is just meh.
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Uh...you posted a base monk. You did nothing to boost.How do you raise your chance of successful Stunning Fist attempts? You raise your Monk's to-hit and Wisdom as high as you can. It's what I did.
Lower you Wisdom modifier and/or to-hit just a bit, and you lower your chance to stun your target as well.
Mantis strike off the top of my head.
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Uh...you posted a base monk. You did nothing to boost.How do you raise your chance of successful Stunning Fist attempts? You raise your Monk's to-hit and Wisdom as high as you can. It's what I did.
Lower you Wisdom modifier and/or to-hit just a bit, and you lower your chance to stun your target as well.
Look at Stunning Steve's AC, saves and HP. He won't be attempting Stunning Fists for long... I'd say it's a miracle he even reached 10th level.
Yeah, you might want to spend that 20k you saved on AC items and cloak. Hell, you can spend 12k on boots of haste and still have 8k left for a ring a cloak and bracers...
Mantis strike off the top of my head.
In which case you either losr Dragon Style, so your damage suffers a harsh nerf, or FoB, if you're a MoMS, which lowers your chances to hit and, consequently, your chances to stun your target.
Yeah, you might want to spend that 20k you saved on AC items and cloak. Hell, you can spend 12k on boots of haste and still have 8k left for a ring a cloak and bracers...
That's what I did. Check my 2nd version of Stunning Steve.
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Mantis strike off the top of my head.In which case you either losr Dragon Style, so your damage suffers a harsh nerf, or FoB, if you're a MoMS, which lowers your chances to hit and, consequently, your chances to stun your target.
You claimed it was best case. I claimed it was normal monk.
A normal monk has a 20 Wisdom at 12th level. You added nothing to increase the save DC. You just posted a monk.
Which is a hell of a lot more than anyone else (including myself) has done so you should be commended. But it wasn't a monk optimized to stun.
You claimed it was best case. I claimed it was normal monk.
A normal monk has a 20 Wisdom at 12th level. You added nothing to increase the save DC. You just posted a monk.
Which is a hell of a lot more than anyone else (including myself) has done so you should be commended. But it wasn't a monk optimized to stun.
No, it was a monk optimized to hit stuff (which you need to do, in order to stun) and to raise all of his Wisdom based abilities, including Stunning Fist.
Or do you think Stunning Fist can be considered a good tool just because a Monk with Str 24 Dex 10 Con 13 Int 7 Wis 22 and Cha 7 using Mantis Strike can make it somewhat reliable?
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What happened to fighters?
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Fighters already ended the encounter with a full-attack.
Lemmy, how would your build change if the monk was a Martial Artist with Mantis Style? I'm curious if that would help make the monk's stunning fist more viable
Ah, yes... The good old Dual Talented Human Qiggong Monk with a Temple Sword. Yeah, that works.
Like I said, Qiggong does a good job of patching up Monks, and Temple Sword-focused Monk is pretty much the most powerful Monk build. Dual Talent is a fair
And still... It only has a 49% chance of successfully stunning a target with poor Fort save. A 38,5% chance against targets with good Fort save and a 0% chance against constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits.
So, more than half the time, you fail to stun an easy target.
I'm still not convinced Stunning Fist is actually useful.
Ah, yes... The good old Dual Talented Human Qiggong Monk with a Temple Sword. Yeah, that works.
Like I said, Qiggong does a good job of patching up Monks, and Temple Sword-focused Monk is pretty much the most powerful Monk build. Dual Talent is a fair
And still... It only has a 49% chance of successfully stunning a target with poor Fort save. A 38,5% chance against targets with good Fort save and a 0% chance against constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits.
So, more than half the time, you fail to stun an easy target.
That's actually pretty good for what amounts to a once per round death effect.
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Ah, yes... The good old Dual Talented Human Qiggong Monk with a Temple Sword. Yeah, that works.
Like I said, Qiggong does a good job of patching up Monks, and Temple Sword-focused Monk is pretty much the most powerful Monk build. Dual Talent is a fair
And still... It only has a 49% chance of successfully stunning a target with poor Fort save. A 38,5% chance against targets with good Fort save and a 0% chance against constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits.
So, more than half the time, you fail to stun an easy target.
I'm still not convinced Stunning Fist is actually useful.
But again, it costs you nothing but a stunning fist use to make the attempt, and when it works, it basically leaves the enemy a sitting duck.
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Lemmy, how would your build change if the monk was a Martial Artist with Mantis Style? I'm curious if that would help make the monk's stunning fist more viable
I don't know... Never tried such build, might give it a try.
If the temple sword had Ki focuses...
I still hate that ruling, only because it didn't fix unarmed but did kind of obsolete it.
I wish they had just given monks inherent bonuses to unarmed attacks and left flurry as it was intended, free TWF.
I agree. Some sort of "Weapon Training" ability with unarmed strikes and Monk weapons would be really nice.
Fighters already ended the encounter with a full-attack.
I think I'll take him over the monk then. I've always said that if an encounter eats into our lunch break something's wrong.
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Lemmy, how would your build change if the monk was a Martial Artist with Mantis Style? I'm curious if that would help make the monk's stunning fist more viableI don't know... Never tried such build, might give it a try.
I agree. Some sort of "Weapon Training" ability with unarmed strikes and Monk weapons would be really nice.If the temple sword had Ki focuses...
I still hate that ruling, only because it didn't fix unarmed but did kind of obsolete it.
I wish they had just given monks inherent bonuses to unarmed attacks and left flurry as it was intended, free TWF.
And we showed it wouldn't be game breaking.
I'm glad they tried, but I wish they had left AoMF as it was, gave monks weapon training (or something similar with perhaps a bit more power) unarmed, and left everything else as it was.
As it stands, the unarmed monk isn't a very good monk compared to other monk options, which just seems wrong.
But again, it costs you nothing but a stunning fist use to make the attempt, and when it works, it basically leaves the enemy a sitting duck.
And again: Still limited and still unreliable.
Does it work once in a while? Sure. Is it a real advantage or selling point for the Monk class? Not really.
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I wish they had just given monks inherent bonuses to unarmed attacks and left flurry as it was intended, free TWF.IMHO, the problem with monks is that the class is a martial and nothing more. I mean nobody complain that the bard do not do the same damage than a ranger cause the bard have other was to contribute to the party. The monk did not really have much ways to contribute, He can hit things, use maneuvers and try to tank basially the things a fighter can do better.
The monk need to be a better martial or have another abilities besides hitting things (abilities like wholeness of body do not really counts).
At this point, the monk actually out damages the ranger in a number of builds.
The ranger gets favored, spells, better skills and hit points, but the monk gets the same number of attacks or more with a single weapon, meaning all enhancement money in one pot.
Monks are martial skillmonkey hybrids. Only rogues and archer rangers are better at stealth and no one is a better scout than a monk. Good mobility, Good stealth, Good Perception. Monks can also hit like a truck and are the easiest class to work in tripping with. They have great saves and defense which is the primary fighter flaw. In exchange they have less DPR than the fighter and less AC and health.
Monks are not your primary martial nor are they your primary skillmonkey. They work best in hybrid parties that have neither a fighter or a rogue.
I'm glad they tried, but I wish they had left AoMF as it was, gave monks weapon training (or something similar with perhaps a bit more power) unarmed, and left everything else as it was.
As it stands, the unarmed monk isn't a very good monk compared to other monk options, which just seems wrong.
I'm not against the reduced price of AoMF. It was too freaking expensive for unarmed characters. I wish they had split it into a AoMF that worked only with unarmed strikes (like the Brawling armor enhancement does) and had the same price as a normal magical weapon, or at most, 1.5x the price of a magical weapon, and a different item, an "Amulet of Mighty Strikes" or some such, that had the same price and effect as the old AoMF.
But again, it costs you nothing but a stunning fist use to make the attempt, and when it works, it basically leaves the enemy a sitting duck.And again: Still limited and still unreliable.
You know whenever I say this about fighters when compared to blaster wizards and sorcerers I get made fun of and called a troll.
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I'm not against the reduced price of AoMF. It was too freaking expensive for unarmed characters. I wish they had split it into a AoMF that worked only with unarmed strikes (like the Brawling armor enhancement does) and had the same price as a normal magical weapon, or at most, 1.5x the price of a magical weapon, and a different item, an "Amulet of Mighty Strikes" or some such, that had the same price and effect as the old AoMF.I'm glad they tried, but I wish they had left AoMF as it was, gave monks weapon training (or something similar with perhaps a bit more power) unarmed, and left everything else as it was.
As it stands, the unarmed monk isn't a very good monk compared to other monk options, which just seems wrong.
I'm not opposed to the change in price. The high price was to deal with character with more than two attacks, and the change was fine (although I would have added a cap) and I agree having one for natural and one for unarmed would have been better.
The whole problem comes down to the larger problem of unarmed and natural attacks as cousins.
The monk change (it was a change, as it was intended to be TWF) made the monk with a weapon very good, but did nothing to help the unarmed monk.
If anything I think the one weapon monk is a bit much at this point, considering the number of attacks.
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Nah, the reduce price to AoMF was a stealth improvement to Druid DPR, cause that was that class needed, everyone know that druid sucked before now they are just acceptable.I'm not against the reduced price of AoMF. It was too freaking expensive for unarmed characters. I wish they had split it into a AoMF that worked only with unarmed strikes (like the Brawling armor enhancement does) and had the same price as a normal magical weapon, or at most, 1.5x the price of a magical weapon, and a different item, an "Amulet of Mighty Strikes" or some such, that had the same price and effect as the old AoMF.I'm glad they tried, but I wish they had left AoMF as it was, gave monks weapon training (or something similar with perhaps a bit more power) unarmed, and left everything else as it was.
As it stands, the unarmed monk isn't a very good monk compared to other monk options, which just seems wrong.
And this is the problem. AoMF should have been made cheaper, but only to apply to unarmed with a separate item applying to natural. But that would require too much retcon so that is probably in the "next edition" bucket.
I am somewhat disappointed the next edition isn't coming next, but I understand releasing it in the same year as WoTC is probably something they don't want to do. Better to see what WoTC does and counter. That is what Paizo does best :)
The ranger gets favored, spells, better skills and hit points, but the monk gets the same number of attacks or more with a single weapon, meaning all enhancement money in one pot.
I wonder if that is true... Even with Temple Swords, Monks still don't get 1.5x Str modifier to damage rolls. And they still take a -2 to attacks.
It's likely that the extra attacks compensate for that, but I'm not sure. Gotta check it out later.
You know whenever I say this about fighters when compared to blaster wizards and sorcerers I get made fun of and called a troll.But again, it costs you nothing but a stunning fist use to make the attempt, and when it works, it basically leaves the enemy a sitting duck.And again: Still limited and still unreliable.
Possibly because blasting is likely the least powerful thing a caster can do. And blasting spells don't require an attack roll and a failed save to work. And even when the target succeeds on its saving throw, it still takes damage most of the time.
Also, no one with a half-decent knowledge of the game claims blasters deal more consistent damage than martial classes.
You already made it clear that you want casters to be far more powerful than all other classes. I honestly believe you only say "martials are fine" because you want them to stay inferior to casters.
The ranger gets favored, spells, better skills and hit points, but the monk gets the same number of attacks or more with a single weapon, meaning all enhancement money in one pot.I wonder if that is true... Even with Temple Swords, Monks still don't get 1.5x Str modifier to damage rolls. And they still take a -2 to attacks.
It's likely that the extra attacks compensate for that, but I'm not sure. Gotta check it out later.
You know whenever I say this about fighters when compared to blaster wizards and sorcerers I get made fun of and called a troll.But again, it costs you nothing but a stunning fist use to make the attempt, and when it works, it basically leaves the enemy a sitting duck.And again: Still limited and still unreliable.Possibly because blasting is likely the least powerful thing a caster can do. And blasting spells don't require an attack roll and a failed save to work. And even when the target succeeds on its saving throw, it still takes damage most of the time.
Also, no one with a half-decent knowledge of the game claims blasters deal more consistent damage than martial classes.
You already made it clear that you want casters to be far more powerful than all other classes. I honestly believe you only say "martials are fine" because you want them to stay inferior to casters.
You pointed out how a monk's stunning fist is limited. When I point out that blast spells are limited, people call me a troll.
The monk change (it was a change, as it was intended to be TWF) made the monk with a weapon very good, but did nothing to help the unarmed monk.
If anything I think the one weapon monk is a bit much at this point, considering the number of attacks.
I disagree. Not only I think it was a mistake (which is not the point of the discussion, so let's leave it at that), but I also think the Temple Sword monk is not that good. I don't know if I still have the build here, but I remember creating one of those monks, and IIRC, it didn't deal more damage than a Paladin with a Bardiche(I was comparing both builds for an upcoming campaign).
I might have to rebuild it just to see how it fares...
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The monk change (it was a change, as it was intended to be TWF) made the monk with a weapon very good, but did nothing to help the unarmed monk.
If anything I think the one weapon monk is a bit much at this point, considering the number of attacks.
I disagree. Not only I think it was a mistake (which is not the point of the discussion, so let's leave it at that), but I also think the Temple Sword monk is not that good. I don't know if I still have the build here, but I remember creating one of those monks, and IIRC, it didn't deal more damage than a Paladin with a Bardiche(I was comparing both builds for an upcoming campaign).
I might have to rebuild it just to see how it fares...
Try it with Ki Focus weapon and add the bonuses if stun works :)
Perhaps you've heard of Treantmonk? He likes shurikens.
Anyone who thinks Shuriken do good damage at any level other than maybe lvl 1 or 2 hasn't had much experience using them.
Don't toss the name Treantmonk out there as though that has meaning to me. I was doing "God Wizard" tactics in 1st edition. None of those guides are anything new to me.
Have you actually used shuriken in game? I'm running a monk in a current campaign. I can tell you from direct recent experience shuriken are useless at lvl 10. I'll even tell you why.
1. It's too expensive to make them magical all the time. If you use greater magic weapon, they still don't penetrate DR.
2. You aren't going to spend the feats to become good at using them. You're not going to pick up Deadly Aim or Point Blank Shot when you can pick up something like Crane Style or Improved Critical to help you in melee combat.
3. They are close to useless with their short range. By the time any creature gets into a range where shuriken are viable, you're better off going to melee. The range increment is 10 feet. If the creature is within 20 or 30 feet, then you attack him in melee rather than take the -2 to -4 to hit on top of the -2 from flurrying with a non-focused dex.
This i not theory-crafting in some guide. This is experience playing the game. Shurikens are not useful at all past low levels when ACs are low and damage reduction is rare. Even then they are marginally useful at best. You should think about actual use such as penalties for firing into combat, cover, and range increments against higher ACs before assuming shuriken are useful. They aren't.
With all the bloat coming out there, I have reverted to only building characters with books that I own. Hyper opt characters have begun to bore me.
This leaves me with the CRB, Mythic Adventures, and Ultimate Campaign.
Engaged != attacked. Especially as Crane Style means taking a further penalty to hit. If some foe has closed with the party wizard and is beating the stuffing out of them, and you run up and fail to hit them, they have no reason to not keep beating on your friend.
-1 to hit for +4 AC is a good tradeoff. That -1 won't make you hit that often. You get a deflection and an additional attack when you deflect. All this by lvl 7. Crane Style is well worth the tradeoff.
You forget Improved Iron Will ;)
There's "good," and there's "good enough" - the monk usually has "good", the fighter can get "good enough."
I didn't forget it. I've watched fighters miss tons of will saves. The DC 20 to 25 is for average creatures. You go up against something with really tough will saves built to use them, the fighter is screwed even more often. If they face a group of creatures causing multiple Will saves, they are usually going to miss at least one or two.
Now if you were talkin barbarian with Superstition, that is another story. They rarely miss saves.
Monks are Wisdom-focused characters with good will saves and Still Mind. They laugh at will saves.
Try it with Ki Focus weapon and add the bonuses if stun works :)
Sure... Monks are martial characters after all. (Because they certainly are not skill monkeys, healers or casters).
Let's see.
First, let me check Nicos' Temple Sword Monk. Unless I missed something...
DPR using FoB + Power Attack: 46.55
DPR using FoB + Power Attack + Ki (Extra Attack): 58.8
Not bad, but hardly off the charts.
(BTW, Nicos, there is not much point in buying an Amulet of Natural Armor when you can cast Barkskin on yourself. It lasts long enough to go on for a full dungeon)
Quick ranger build:
Male Human Ranger 10
NG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +16
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Defense
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AC 22, touch 13, flat-footed 20 (+9 armor, +2 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 80 (10d10+30)
Fort +13 (+4 vs. hot or cold environments and to resist damage from suffocation), Ref +12, Will +10
Defensive Abilities evasion
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Offense
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Speed 20 ft.
Melee +1 Greatsword +16/+11 (2d6+19/17-20/x2) and
. . +2 Silversheen Greatsword +17/+12 (2d6+20/17-20/x2)
Ranged +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +4) +14/+9 (1d8+7/x3)
Special Attacks favored enemies (aberrations +2, fey +2, undead +6)
Ranger Spells Prepared (CL 9):
3 (1/day) Instant Enemy
2 (2/day) Barkskin (x2)
1 (3/day) Longstrider, Resist Energy (x2)
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 7
Base Atk +10; CMB +18; CMD 29
Feats Boon Companion (Animal Companion), Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Cornugon Smash, Dreadful Carnage, Endurance, Furious Focus, Improved Critical (Greatsword), Power Attack -3/+6, Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
Traits Auspicious Tattoo (Shoanti), Magical Knack (Ranger)
Skills Acrobatics +2 (-2 jump), Bluff -2 (+0 vs. aberrations, +0 vs. fey, +4 vs. undead), Climb +10, Handle Animal +11, Intimidate +11, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +14 (+16 vs. aberrations, +16 vs. fey, +20 vs. undead), Knowledge (nature) +14 (+16 vs. aberrations, +16 vs. fey, +20 vs. undead), Knowledge (religion) +9 (+11 vs. aberrations, +11 vs. fey, +15 vs. undead), Perception +16 (+18 vs. aberrations, +18 vs. fey, +22 vs. undead, +20 while in forest terrain, +18 while in underground terrain), Sense Motive +3 (+5 vs. aberrations, +5 vs. fey, +9 vs. undead), Stealth +15 (+19 while in forest terrain, +17 while in underground terrain), Survival +3 (+5 to avoid becoming lost, +5 vs. aberrations, +5 vs. fey, +9 vs. undead, +7 while in forest terrain, +5 while in underground terrain, +8 to track), Swim +10 (+14 to resist nonlethal damage from exhaustion)
Languages Common, Draconic
SQ animal companion link, combat styles (two-handed weapon), favored terrains (forest +4, underground +2), hunter's bonds (wolfie, wolf), share spells with companion, swift tracker, track, wild empathy, woodland stride
Other Gear +3 Breastplate, +1 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +4), +1 Greatsword, +2 Silversheen Greatsword, Belt of physical might (Str & Con +2), Cloak of resistance +2, Headband of inspired wisdom +2, Ioun stone (clear spindle), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, Attack), Ioun stone (pale green prism (cracked, saves), Ring of protection +1, Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs), You have no money!
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Special Abilities
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Animal Companion Link (Ex) You have a link with your Animal Companion.
Boon Companion (Animal Companion) +4 levels to calc familiar/animal comp abilities (max of your HD).
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Cornugon Smash When you damage an opponent with a Power Attack, you may make an immediate Intimidate check as a free action to attempt to demoralize your opponent.
Dreadful Carnage If you reduce an enemy to 0 or fewer HP, you can make an intimidate check to demoralize all enemies within 30' as a free action.
Endurance +4 to a variety of skill checks. Sleep in L/M armor with no fatigue.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Favored Enemy (Aberrations +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Aberrations).
Favored Enemy (Fey +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Fey).
Favored Enemy (Undead +6) (Ex) +6 to rolls vs Favored Enemy (Undead).
Favored Terrain (Forest +4) (Ex) +4 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Forest).
Favored Terrain (Underground +2) (Ex) +2 to rolls vs Favored Terrain (Underground).
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Ioun stone (clear spindle) Sustains bearer without food or water.
Magical Knack (Ranger) +2 CL for a specific class, to a max of your HD.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Share Spells with Companion (Ex) Can cast spells with a target of "you" on animal companion, as touch spells.
Swift Tracker (Ex) Tracking penalties when moving at normal speed or faster are reduced.
Track +5 Add the listed bonus to survival checks made to track.
Wayfinder (1 @ 0 lbs) A small magical device patterned off ancient relics of the Azlanti, a wayfinder is typically made from silver and bears gold accents. With a command word, you can use a wayfinder to shine (as the light spell). The wayfinder also acts as a nonmagical (magnetic) compass, granting you a +2 circumstance bonus on Survival checks to avoid becoming lost. All wayfinders include a small indentation designed to hold a single ioun stone.
Wild Empathy +8 (Ex) Improve the attitude of an animal, as if using Diplomacy.
Woodland Stride (Ex) Move through undergrowth at normal speed.
DPR using `Power Attack: 49.14
DPR Using Power Attack against Undead (or when using Instant Enemy): 78.54
And that's before accounting for his loyal wolf companion.
Wolf
N Large Animal
Init +5; Senses low-light vision, scent; Perception +13
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Defense
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AC 25, touch 12, flat-footed 22 (+3 armor, +3 Dex, -1 size, +10 natural)
hp 85 (+45)
Fort +12, Ref +10, Will +8 (+4 morale bonus vs. Enchantment spells and effects)
Defensive Abilities evasion
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Offense
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Speed 50 ft.
Melee Bite (1 extra at -5) (Wolf) +14 (1 extra at -5) (1d8+11/x2)
Space 10 ft.; Reach 5 ft.
Special Attacks trip
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Statistics
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Str 24, Dex 16, Con 20, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 6
Base Atk +6; CMB +14; CMD 27 (31 vs. Trip)
Feats Additional Traits, Eldritch Claws, Iron Will, Power Attack -2/+4, Weapon Focus (Bite)
Traits Indomitable Faith, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +3 (+11 jump), Fly +1, Perception +13, Stealth +11, Swim +11; Racial Modifiers +4 to survival when tracking by scent
SQ devotion +4, multiattack / extra attack
Other Gear Masterwork Parade armor, Amulet of mighty fists +1, Cloak of resistance +1, You have no money!
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Special Abilities
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+4 to Survival when tracking by Scent +4 to Survival when tracking by Scent.
Devotion +4 (Ex) +4 Morale bonus on Will Saves vs. Enchantments.
Eldritch Claws Your natural weapons are considered both magic and silver for purpose of overcoming damage reduction.
Evasion (Ex) No damage on successful reflex save.
Low-Light Vision See twice as far as a human in low light, distinguishing color and detail.
Multiattack / Extra Attack Multiattack or second attack with primary weapon at a -5 penalty.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Scent (Ex) Detect opponents within 15+ feet by sense of smell.
Trip (Ex) You can make a trip attempt on a successful attack.
So assuming Wolfie is not around, Nicos' Temple Sword Monk deals more damage than Quickie 9 rounds a day. Unless he is using ki against undead enemies, in which case Quickie will deal almost twice as much damage.
Nicos' Monk has better base movement speed will save and AC (especially touch AC) plus a few immunities. But he also has lower HP and damage output as well as fewer skills. He also lacks backup weapons and ranged weapon. He has Stunning Fist, but Quickie can cast an assortment of useful spells.
All in all... They are pretty balanced with each other.
Try it with Ki Focus weapon and add the bonuses if stun works :)The monk change (it was a change, as it was intended to be TWF) made the monk with a weapon very good, but did nothing to help the unarmed monk.
If anything I think the one weapon monk is a bit much at this point, considering the number of attacks.
I disagree. Not only I think it was a mistake (which is not the point of the discussion, so let's leave it at that), but I also think the Temple Sword monk is not that good. I don't know if I still have the build here, but I remember creating one of those monks, and IIRC, it didn't deal more damage than a Paladin with a Bardiche(I was comparing both builds for an upcoming campaign).
I might have to rebuild it just to see how it fares...
Try paying for that Ki-Focus. Know any other classes that need special weapon properties to use their class features? And "if stun works" is "IF stun works" - On average, it fails 90% of the time. And for that, you are effectively doubling the cost of your weapon...
Engaged != attacked. Especially as Crane Style means taking a further penalty to hit. If some foe has closed with the party wizard and is beating the stuffing out of them, and you run up and fail to hit them, they have no reason to not keep beating on your friend.-1 to hit for +4 AC is a good tradeoff. That -1 won't make you hit that often. You get a deflection and an additional attack when you deflect. All this by lvl 7. Crane Style is well worth the tradeoff.
I agree, it's a =good trade-off, but you are fighting defensively when offence is what is called for.
I didn't forget it. I've watched fighters miss tons of will saves.You forget Improved Iron Will ;)
There's "good," and there's "good enough" - the monk usually has "good", the fighter can get "good enough."
I've seen monks miss them too. The best saves are on Paladins, hands down. The best Will saves are on Paladins and CoDzilla.
The DC 20 to 25 is for average creatures. You go up against something with really tough will saves built to use them, the fighter is screwed even more often. If they face a group of creatures causing multiple Will saves, they are usually going to miss at least one or two.
Does that happen often?
Now if you were talkin barbarian with Superstition, that is another story. They rarely miss saves.
No argument there.
Monks are Wisdom-focused characters with good will saves and Still Mind. They laugh at will saves.
No, they have less trouble with them. Clerics and druids who can afford to really pump wisdom at high level laugh at them.
{monk vs ranger}
Let's also add two points here: Monk DPR drops more when he moves (less chance to hit at 3/4 BAB than flurrying), and ranger's are the weakest at general combat of the full BAB classes.