A 25% success rate on crits is terrible?
Why are we talking about crits? Thought this was about stunning fist. Yes, a 25% success rate is unreliable.
I am not saying casters don't invest in Initiative. I'm saying in these discussions I always notice how many things they invest in, and wonder how they do all of that in a single build...
There's confirmation bias involved, and exaggeration. Casters have a ton of options, and some are more normal than others. A magus with dervish dance and intensified shocking grasp and who carries around a few pearls of power isn't that unusual for example. Similarly a wizard with mirror image, blur, and high initiative. Neither of those for example are really stress on a build or preclude other options. They would be way over prepared though if they were of a particular race or archetype or using this unheard of spell from splat books. So yes, an Ifrit divination wizard for example is definitely something you won't see very often, but a human wizard with a greensting scorpion and who used his feat on improved initiative isn't out of the question.
Sometimes people aren't even saying "every person is x", but saying "x is common" or "x could happen". Three very different things.
Your comparing apples and oranges.
What does Mythic Weapon Finesse do? Add damage now? That would be awesome. The birth of the Dex-based fighter.Well none of you guys are adding mythic tiers.
The dawn of the Dex monk is nigh! Mythic Weapon Finesse FTW!
Mythic Weapon Finesse
When using Weapon Finesse, you may also use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on your damage rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty doesn't apply to either the attack rolls or the damage rolls.
What does Mythic Weapon Finesse do? Add damage now? That would be awesome. The birth of the Dex-based fighter.Well none of you guys are adding mythic tiers.
The dawn of the Dex monk is nigh! Mythic Weapon Finesse FTW!
Mythic Weapon Finesse
When using Weapon Finesse, you may also use your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier on your damage rolls. If you carry a shield, its armor check penalty doesn't apply to either the attack rolls or the damage rolls.
My gosh... They won't need agile weapons anymore! Quick, run for the hills! Wait no... Don't do that, they jump and run really well.
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Your comparing apples and oranges.
You are saying something that only works 25% of the time (at minimum...I was lowballing) isn't useful.
I'm saying both Stunning fist and Crits have no opportunity cost (as in, you lose nothing to use then) and have nice payoff.
If once a day (1 every 4 encounters), you are able to immobilize an enemy for a round, that is useful. When you add that later you can fatigue, sicked stagger and at high levels even kill...
But I get that doesn't fit your narrative...
It is a useful feature. One of many.
Because you said something that only works 25% of the time isn't particularly useful.
At absolute best, crits work less than 25% of the time.
If using stunning fist had an opportunity cost, you might have a point.
It doesn't.
Stunning fist has limited uses per day, if the attack misses you waste that use, and even if it hits it gives a save to ignore the effects, which target's fortitude save (a very common high save). And to keep the DC up requires certain archetypes, certain styles, and/or having a high wisdom on a MAD class (getting that high wisdom might not be possible on lower point-buys, though higher point-buys make that easier). I'm not necessarily in the 'Stunning Fist is useless' camp, I'm just saying that it's not really comparable to crits, at least at lower levels or if you have non-monk levels.
Your comparing apples and oranges.You are saying something that only works 25% of the time (at minimum...I was lowballing) isn't useful.
I said its not reliable. Different thing. A crit is something that has a chance of occurring on every attack in your full attack and has no save beyond confirmation. Stunning fist is 1/round and only if you hit with the attack you call it on.
That, and what Katz said. Its apples and oranges.
At higher levels, the limited usage per day isn't that big of a deal. If you have 10 uses/day and 25% success rate (which is lowballing it according to ciretose), you get off an average of 2.5 successful ones per day, assuming you use up all (and if you don't, well, then there's no real limit). And stunning/sickening/staggering an opponent for 2-3 rounds every day without an extra action cost is a good ability.
The monk still has huge issues but stunning fist isn't a bad ability.
Stunning Fist does a lot more than what a crit does. There aren't many crits that cause blindness or even sickening without spending a good deal of gold. If Stunning Fist could be attempted on every attack, it'd be broken. Your argument is flawed.
No gold needed, but to be fair crit fishing is most effectively at a later level imo. My statement was that crits were much more reliable so it was comparing apples and oranges.
Stunning Fist?
Those things you burn to use Dragon's Roar?
The math says you are wrong on stunning fist. It is something you do pretty much every time you attack after a certain level, certainly once per encounter after 4th level or so. If it works 25% of the time, it isn't "terrible", is it?
Yes, it is. A limited resource that only works 25% of the time and is spent even if you miss the attack or the enemy makes its save is pretty terrible. It only has an okay chance of succeeding on creatures with low fort save, like casters, in which case, if you can touch them, you can probably kill them.
Comparing it to critical is not a fair comparison. Not only critical hits are unlimited, you also get a free chance every time you make an attack. So even if you only have a 20/x2 crit range/multiplier, that's already about an 80% chance with TWF/FoB.
Sutnning Fist, OTOH, can not be used more than 1 per round.
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Stunning fist has limited uses per day, if the attack misses you waste that use, and even if it hits it gives a save to ignore the effects, which target's fortitude save (a very common high save). And to keep the DC up requires certain archetypes, certain styles, and/or having a high wisdom on a MAD class (getting that high wisdom might not be possible on lower point-buys, though higher point-buys make that easier). I'm not necessarily in the 'Stunning Fist is useless' camp, I'm just saying that it's not really comparable to crits, at least at lower levels or if you have non-monk levels.Because you said something that only works 25% of the time isn't particularly useful.
At absolute best, crits work less than 25% of the time.
If using stunning fist had an opportunity cost, you might have a point.
It doesn't.
Wasting something that costs you nothing to use other than the use...
So the argument is now that it is useless and something you don't want to waste...
The DC is 1/2 your character level + Wisdom + 10. It goes up regardless.
Again, 25% is lowballing. The 12th level monk with the absurdly low 16 wisdom is still a 19 Fort save. The average would be about a 20, or a 21 Fort save, if you invest in wisdom significantly or in feats or items that increase the save it is even higher.
But with a 20 wisdom, very average, and no other investment it is a 21 Fort save for absolutely no loss of damage or attack prowess.
And again, it is one feature, of many. It has no drawback other that uses per day. There is really no reason not to use it once an encounter after 4th level or so, and if it works it changes the entire encounter.
Not to mention it adds additional status effects, including a death effect, as you level.
It is absurd to dismiss that out of hand.
According to the Bestiary and with a quick HeroLab math.
Best case scenario (Str 22, Wis 18, Con & Dex 12, Int 10 Cha 7; AoMF +3, Weapon Focus: Unarmed Strikes, Belt of Physical Perfection +2, Headband of Inspired Wisdom +4; Fort is the target's poor save) by 10th level, a Monk has about a 42% chance of successfully stunning someone. That's not that bad...
Now, realistically, this should be an AoMF +2, reducing this chance to 39%, the Headband would only be Wisdom +2, so your Stunning Fist now has a 32% chance of success.
Less than 1/3 of your Stunning Fist attempts work on an easy target. Against a creature with good fort, and not only Fort is the most common good save, but it's also raised by Con, which is very often a good stat, this chance drops to slightly less than 23%.
And that's with high Str and Wis scores. Heavens forbid you want to have higher Con or Dex and/or buy some other item. Buying an AoMF +3, Headband of Wis +4 and a Belt of Str/Con +2 already eats up literally all your 10th WBL. (36k + 16k + 10k = 62k = All your money!)
And that's before mentioning creatures who are immune to it, such as undead and constructs. Hell, even if you use Stunning Fist on a 1st level commoner, there about a 10% chance that your attempt will fail. Not 5%, 10%.
That's pretty terrible IMO. I'd feel better spending it on Dragon Roar.
Monks definitely have their own real advantages, but Stunning Fist is not one of them.
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Stunning Fist does a lot more than what a crit does. There aren't many crits that cause blindness or even sickening without spending a good deal of gold. If Stunning Fist could be attempted on every attack, it'd be broken. Your argument is flawed.No gold needed, but to be fair crit fishing is most effectively at a later level imo. My statement was that crits were much more reliable so it was comparing apples and oranges.
Just how many feats?
18 Wis is your best case scenario...
With a 20pt buy, and if you want a decent Str/Dex score.... Yes, it is.
I suppose you could focus on Wisdom and buy a Guided AoMF, but I'm not particularly fond of builds that depend on such specific weapon enhancement.
Well... There is the Oni-spawn tiefling, which can raise these numbers a bit, but that 1 specific variant from 1 specific race, none of which are always allowed. And as I said before, if you depend on a specific race to do something, ti's not an capability, it's a limitation.
I'm not saying Monks are useless. After the errata, an optimized Monk can be a pretty effective martial character, IMHO. However, Stunning Fist is not one of their selling points.
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Also when you do your DPR calculations, out of curiosity do you calculate that when stunning fist works, the rest of the attacks are against a stunned target?
At 10th level, the standard DPR calculating level, a monk generally has 10 Stuns. Same as the number of uses of boots of haste.
In addition to the enemy dropping everything they hold and losing action, they take a -2 to AC and loses dexterity to AC.
Bye bye shield, weapon. Hello flat footed and -2.
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18 Wis is your best case scenario...With a 20pt buy, and if you want a decent Str/Dex score.... Yes, it is.
I supposed you could focus on Wisdom and buy a Guided AoMF, but I'm not particularly fond of builds that depend on such specific weapon enhancement.
I'm not saying Monks are useless. After the errata, an optimized Monk can be a pretty effective martial character, IMHO. However, Stunning Fist is not one of their selling points.
You have a 12 dex and con with a +2 item...
In fact, your base stats are 20 Str, 10 Dex and con, 14 wisdom, 10 int and 7 Cha.
Assuming you had a 16 Str and put +2 at 4th and 6th...not a 20 point buy.
You have a 12 dex and con with a +2 item...18 Wis is your best case scenario...With a 20pt buy, and if you want a decent Str/Dex score.... Yes, it is.
I supposed you could focus on Wisdom and buy a Guided AoMF, but I'm not particularly fond of builds that depend on such specific weapon enhancement.
I'm not saying Monks are useless. After the errata, an optimized Monk can be a pretty effective martial character, IMHO. However, Stunning Fist is not one of their selling points.
Actually, it's 14, I forgot to add the enhancement bonus on my build descripton. My mistake.
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Actually, it's +14, I forgot to add the enhancement bonus on my build descripton. My mistake.You have a 12 dex and con with a +2 item...18 Wis is your best case scenario...With a 20pt buy, and if you want a decent Str/Dex score.... Yes, it is.
I supposed you could focus on Wisdom and buy a Guided AoMF, but I'm not particularly fond of builds that depend on such specific weapon enhancement.
I'm not saying Monks are useless. After the errata, an optimized Monk can be a pretty effective martial character, IMHO. However, Stunning Fist is not one of their selling points.
And did you include the racial bonuses?
Even with that I'm counting 15 point buy with racial bonus to strength.
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Scenario (Dumping Charisma which I hate to do) is
Str 22 (16+2 racial + 2 4th and 8th + 2 item) 10
Dex 14 (12 +2 item) 2
Con 14 (12 +2 item) 2
Int 10 () 0
Wis 20 (16+4 item) 10
Cha 7 () -4
Tot: 20
Personally I usually just setting for the 12 dex and get the two enhancement item but YMMV.
I generally see 20 as the baseline for Wis at this level, with Dex and Str going back and forth.
I'll make it easier for you.
Here, this is the build I used for my calculations:
Male Human Monk 10
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +18
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Defense
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AC 19, touch 19, flat-footed 17 (+2 Dex)
hp 58 (10d8+10)
Fort +8, Ref +9, Will +12; +2 bonus vs. sleep, paralysis, and stunning, +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion; Immune disease
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee Unarmed strike +17/+12 (1d10+13/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows +8/+8/+3/+3, ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, lawful, ki strike, magic
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 14, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 20, Cha 7
Base Atk +7; CMB +16 (+18 Grappling, +18 Tripping); CMD 32 (34 vs. Grapple, 34 vs. Trip)
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+6 rds, Dragon Style, Improved Critical (Unarmed strike), Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Ki Throw, Lunge, Power Attack -2/+4, Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 20), Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
Traits Quain Martial Artist, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +15 (+27 jump, +25 to jump), Knowledge (religion) +13, Perception +18, Sense Motive +18, Stealth +15
Languages Common
SQ ac bonus +7, fast movement (+30'), high jump, ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, purity of body, slow fall 50', stunning fist (stun, fatigue, sicken), unarmed strike (1d10), wholeness of body
Other Gear Amulet of mighty fists +3, Belt of physical might (Str & Dex +2), Headband of inspired wisdom +4, You have no money!
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +7 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+6 rds Gain bonus on unarmed attacks, and you can cause opponents to be shaken
Dragon Style +2 vs sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
High Jump (+10/+30 with Ki point) (Ex) +10 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Trip You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when tripping.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Cold Iron/Silver (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Ki Throw Trips can put the target in any square you threaten.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Slow Fall 50' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Stunning Fist (10/day) (DC 20) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wholeness of Body (10 Hp/use) (Su) Use 2 ki to heal own wounds as a standard action.
He used his favored class bonus to get more Ki points, but it could be used to increase HP instead.
Also, he bought a belt of Str/Dex +2 because his AC is pathetic, but you could buy a Belt of Str/Con +2 instead if you prefer. The Stunning Fist chance of success doesn't change either way.
So his wis is 20.
Yes, I made a mistake when describing his attributes. Doesn't change the math, though, I used the HL version for doing the math, not the description in my post.
His AC, HP and even his saves are pretty bad.
His damage is okay, though.
Just how many feats?Stunning Fist does a lot more than what a crit does. There aren't many crits that cause blindness or even sickening without spending a good deal of gold. If Stunning Fist could be attempted on every attack, it'd be broken. Your argument is flawed.No gold needed, but to be fair crit fishing is most effectively at a later level imo. My statement was that crits were much more reliable so it was comparing apples and oranges.
If your a full BAB crit fisher your darn well getting those feats. Only takes 2, and one of them helps you confirm(which is better than some feat prereqs... Combat expertise knows who I'm talking about!)
Why does it matter how many feats? My point was comparing apples and oranges. Someone says its okay to rely on stunning fist, then when someone says otherwise it turns into an argument where its okay because its similar to crits, which are something else entirely. This makes you hard to speak with!
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Just how many feats?Stunning Fist does a lot more than what a crit does. There aren't many crits that cause blindness or even sickening without spending a good deal of gold. If Stunning Fist could be attempted on every attack, it'd be broken. Your argument is flawed.No gold needed, but to be fair crit fishing is most effectively at a later level imo. My statement was that crits were much more reliable so it was comparing apples and oranges.If your a full BAB crit fisher your darn well getting those feats. Only takes 2, and one of them helps you confirm(which is better than some feat prereqs... Combat expertise knows who I'm talking about!)
Why does it matter how many feats? My point was comparing apples and oranges. Someone says its okay to rely on stunning fist, then when someone says otherwise it turns into an argument where its okay because its similar to crits, which are something else entirely. This makes you hard to speak with!
What level are they taking those feats?
And how many Stunning fists will the monk have per day by that point...
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What level are they taking those feats?
And how many Stunning fists will the monk have per day by that point...
Does it matter how many stunning fist they get? You get to use stunning fist once per round, and once per monk level per day. You can use the critical feats all day and on every hit. There's a huge difference in that. You get 2 or three more chances to crit per round even if you can use stunning fist every round of every fight. If the guy is dual wielding its even further different. Other full BAB classes also have a higher chance to hit. All sorts of things that your ignoring to pretend stunning fist is just as good as a crit, which is unrelated to the subject anyway!
He can't get AoMF +3 at 10th, realistically.
On the upside that is lots of money for other things, like boots of speed, bracers, ring or protection, etc...
And a cloak, since the saves are a concern.
I agree. But I was going for the best case scenario: maximum to-hit and maximum Wisdom.
Personally, I'd have bought a AoMF +2, a Belt of Physical Perfection +2 and a Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, then spent the remaining gold on more useful items. I'd also probably have started with lower Wisdom to boost my Con and/or Dex.
This is how I'd build this monk.
Male Human Monk 10
LN Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +4; Senses Perception +17
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Defense
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AC 21, touch 19, flat-footed 19 (+2 armor, +2 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 78 (10d8+30)
Fort +12, Ref +11, Will +13; +2 bonus vs. sleep, paralysis, and stunning, +2 vs. enchantment spells and effects
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved evasion; Immune disease
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Offense
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Speed 60 ft.
Melee Unarmed strike +16/+11 (1d10+12/19-20/x2)
Special Attacks flurry of blows +17/+17/+12/+12, ki strike, cold iron/silver, ki strike, lawful, ki strike, magic
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Statistics
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Str 22, Dex 14, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 18, Cha 7
Base Atk +7; CMB +16 (+18 Grappling, +18 Tripping); CMD 32 (34 vs. Grapple, 34 vs. Trip)
Feats Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round), Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+6 rds, Dragon Roar, Dragon Style, Improved Critical (Unarmed strike), Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, Improved Unarmed Strike, Lunge, Power Attack -2/+4, Stunning Fist (11/day) (DC 19), Weapon Focus (Unarmed strike)
Traits Quain Martial Artist, Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +15 (+27 jump, +25 to jump), Escape Artist +15, Knowledge (religion) +14, Perception +17, Sense Motive +17, Stealth +15
Languages Common, Draconic
SQ ac bonus +6, fast movement (+30'), high jump, ki defense, ki pool, maneuver training, purity of body, slow fall 50', stunning fist (stun, fatigue, sicken), unarmed strike (1d10), wholeness of body
Other Gear Amulet of mighty fists +2, Belt of physical perfection +2, Bracers of armor +2, Cloak of resistance +2, Feather step slippers, Headband of inspired wisdom +4, Ring of protection +1, 2000 GP
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Special Abilities
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AC Bonus +6 The Monk adds his Wisdom bonus to AC and CMD, more at higher levels.
Combat Reflexes (3 AoO/round) Can make extra attacks of opportunity/rd, and even when flat-footed.
Dragon Ferocity +3, 1d4+6 rds Gain bonus on unarmed attacks, and you can cause opponents to be shaken
Dragon Roar Gain +1 use of Stunning Fist per day, and you can emit a concussive roar
Dragon Style +2 vs sleep, paralysis, and stun, first unarmed strike in a rd deals 1.5x Str, and can ignore difficult terrain/allies when charging.
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Movement (+30') The Monk adds 10 or more feet to his base speed.
Feather step slippers Ignore difficult terrain as though affected by feather step.
Flurry of Blows +8/+8/+3/+3 (Ex) Make Flurry of Blows attack as a full rd action.
High Jump (+10/+30 with Ki point) (Ex) +10 to Acrobatics checks made to jump.
Immunity to Disease You are immune to diseases.
Improved Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead. If you fail you take half damage.
Improved Grapple You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when grappling a foe.
Improved Trip You don't provoke attacks of opportunity when tripping.
Improved Unarmed Strike Unarmed strikes don't cause attacks of opportunity, and can be lethal.
Ki Defense (Su) A monk can spend 1 point from his ki pool to give himself a +4 dodge bonus to AC for 1 round.
Ki Pool (Su) You have a ki pool equal to 1/2 your monk level + your Wisdom modifier.
Ki Strike, Cold Iron/Silver (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as cold iron and silver to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Lawful (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as lawful to overcome DR.
Ki Strike, Magic (Su) If you have ki remaining, unarmed strikes count as magic to overcome DR.
Lunge Can increase reach by 5 ft, but take -2 to AC for 1 rd.
Maneuver Training (Ex) CMB = other BABs + Monk level
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Purity of Body (Ex) At 5th level, a monk gains immunity to all diseases, including supernatural and magical diseases.
Slow Fall 50' (Ex) Treat a fall as shorter than normal if within arm's reach of a wall.
Stunning Fist (11/day) (DC 19) You can stun an opponent with an unarmed attack.
Stunning Fist (Stun, Fatigue, Sicken) (Ex) At 1st level, the monk gains Stunning Fist as a bonus feat, even if he does not meet the prerequisites. At 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter, the monk gains the ability to apply a new condition to the target of his Stunning Fist. This conditio
Unarmed Strike (1d10) The Monk does lethal damage with his unarmed strikes.
Wholeness of Body (10 Hp/use) (Su) Use 2 ki to heal own wounds as a standard action.
His saves, AC and HP are all better, although his damage is a bit lower. His AC is still not something to write home about, though...
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He can't get AoMF +3 at 10th, realistically.
On the upside that is lots of money for other things, like boots of speed, bracers, ring or protection, etc...
And a cloak, since the saves are a concern.
I agree. But I was going for the best case scenario: maximum to-hit and maximum Wisdom.
Personally, I'd have bought a AoMF +2, a Belt of Physical Perfection +2 and a Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2, then spent the remaining gold on more useful items. I'd also probably have started with lower Wisdom to boost my Con and/or Dex.
IMHO Dex is over-rated unless you are doing a Dex build. You already get improved evasion, so any reflex save is at best half damage for you. Plus you can get dodge as a monk feat.
Wis gives you AC, Stun saves, and Ki, which I think are much more useful.
I think your stats are fine, and I started off saying it was about 25%...which was pretty much right.
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Does it matter how many stunning fist they get? You get to use stunning fist once per round, and once per monk level per day. You can use the critical feats all day and on every hit. There's a huge difference in that. You get 2 or three more chances to crit per round even if you can use stunning fist every round of every fight. If the guy is dual wielding its even further different. Other full BAB classes also have a higher chance to hit. All sorts of things that your ignoring to pretend stunning fist is just as good as a crit, which is unrelated to the subject anyway!What level are they taking those feats?
And how many Stunning fists will the monk have per day by that point...
Yes, and if you can't do your crit trick until you have a +8 BaB...when at min the monk can stun 8 times a day...
So Until you get improved crit on a high crit item...not even 25% really when you add in confirming and saves.
My point, which you keep wanting to push off, is that something that works 25% of the time and costs nothing is actually useful, even if that makes your narrative...what is that word, starts with a "w" ends with a "g"...
Dabbler,
Point 3: I like to engage since I have Crane Style. Crane Style not as fun when you don't get attacked.
Engaged != attacked. Especially as Crane Style means taking a further penalty to hit. If some foe has closed with the party wizard and is beating the stuffing out of them, and you run up and fail to hit them, they have no reason to not keep beating on your friend.
Point 4: He tried to build up the Will Save. It gets to a point where Iron Will and Wisdom don't help enough. Monk is a Wisdom focused character with good saves across the board.
At level 15 a Fighter's best base will save will be something like +14 with a cloak of resistance, a wisdom boosting item, and Iron Will.
The DC of fear auras and such is usually low to mid 20s. Higher for dragons or casters with built up stats and abilities. It can be rough making those saves.
You forget Improved Iron Will ;)
There's "good," and there's "good enough" - the monk usually has "good", the fighter can get "good enough."
Something to keep in mind is that, in a real game, its really not the role of the monk to face off against the fighter. It is the role of the monk to go around the crunchy fighter and get to the creamy goodness of the wizard.
In the real world, I've never seen this happen. At lower levels the monk's mobility is not that much better than any other character's. At mid to high levels fly levels out the mobility playing field for all characters, especially the ****ing flying wizard, meaning anyone can get to the creamy wizard as well as the monk, and cream them faster than the monk can, usually.
Or just pick them off at range.
I'd like to see a comparison on how well the fighter can do the monk's role.
I'd like to see somebody define a monk's role the monk can actually do, let alone anyone else.
Except the monk doesn't do acrobatics much better than anyone else.That's an overstatement. His competitors in this are classes that have Acrobatics as a class skill and wear light or no armor. That's the Bard and the Rogue. And, once the character gets to the wizard, what's he going to do? The Rogue's most powerful combat ability typically involves flanking and there will be no one he can flank with. The Bard just can't match the Monk in combat.
You both ignore the magical elephant in the room, that at the level at which the monk or any other acrobatic character can gyrate and somersault their way past enemies a potion of fly allows any character to bypass them and more importantly, engage the foe wherever they are even if THEY are flying. You also both ignore that an archer can engage without even moving his butt.
Of course I realize that. But, removing gear from the discussion makes the comparison easier.
No, it makes the fact that other classes can get more out of their gear than the monk less obvious. Gear is standard, that's why all comparisons use standard WBL.
For example, the best monk builds are dex-based. All well and good, agile levels that, right? So a dex-based bard and a dex-based monk should be eaven, except they are not: the bard gets an agile rapier cheaper than the monk gets an agile AoMF. Not only that but the rapier's greater threat range makes it's static bonuses very important, bonuses that rely on the gear properties. So a naked monk could beat the 'naked' bard, but the fully equipped bard could beat the fully equipped monk. I don't know any games that have no gear in them - and you are the one who wants things "in the real world" after all.
IMHO Dex is over-rated unless you are doing a Dex build. You already get improved evasion, so any reflex save is at best half damage for you. Plus you can get dodge as a monk feat.
Wis gives you AC, Stun saves, and Ki, which I think are much more useful.
Agreed. Though I'd feel uncomfortable playing a Monk whose Dex is lower than 12. None of my character ever dumps Dex.
I think your stats are fine, and I started off saying it was about 25%...which was pretty much right.
Indeed... And 25% is a terrible success rate, IMO. Especially when for a character who spent so many resources trying to make it better. With that much specialization, I'd wish at least a 66% success rate against easy targets and about a 33% success rate against more difficult ones.
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It is a terrible success rate if it is all or nothing, like a spell that either succeeds or fails.
As an add on, it is fine. In addition to your attack sequence, you can add this. You lose no attack bonus, no damage, nothing if it fails.
If it works, the rest of your attacks are more likely to hit and the enemy is out (and vulnerable) for the rest of the round until you go again.
Which is also when you activate your boots and ki to really pour it on with two extra attacks at Full Bab (swift and free action) :)
Yes, and if you can't do your crit trick until you have a +8 BaB...when at min the monk can stun 8 times a day...
Who cares! That was my response to someone about saying crits can't do what stunning fist can, and I even said it only works at higher levels in the same post. Do you still think stunning fist and crits are the same thing and that me saying stunning fist is meh means I think crits are meh?
It is a terrible success rate if it is all or nothing, like a spell that either succeeds or fails.
For such a limited resource, and considering how much effort was put into it... Still terrible. It's too little return for the investment.
Imagine if a Fighter only had a 25% chance of hitting enemies with high AC and a 33% chance of hitting enemies with mediocre AC.
Imagine a Paladin whose Smite Evil (or even just his Divine Bond) only has a 25% chance of working against Undead, Evil Outsiders and Dragons, and only a 33% chance to affect other evil creatures (Hey, it's just a bonus, right? You don't lose damage or anything if it doesn't work!).
Imagine a Inquisitor whose Judgement has only a 25~33% chance of actually working. It'd be terrible, and Judgements last much longer than a single attack!
But hey, those are main features from each class, so let's go with different examples...
Imagine a Ranger who only succeeds on 25% of difficult Survival/Perception/Stealth checks and a 33% chance of succeeding on easy ones. He might as well not even try!
Imagine a Bard a bard who fails at all but 25% of difficult Diplomacy/Bluff checks and succeeds on no more than 33% of easy ones.
And skills don't even have limited uses per day.
Imagine a Sorcerer whose Bloodline abilities work only 25% of the time against difficult targets and 33% of the time against easy ones. He might as well not have the bloodline power.
Stunning Fist would be much better if you could at least declare its use after you confirmed a hit. Then you'd only have to worry about the saving throw, which is already a fair limitation.
Your stunning monk is not really spening much resources into stunning fist. Your wis investment help with your saves, Ac and CMD so it is not a stunning fist investment. I will post a stunning fist focused monk so we can compare numbers.
And yet, his saves, AC and CMD are still pretty bad. And his HP is even worse.
EDIT: Actually, his CMD is not that bad. But his saves, HP and AC are still a disappointment. And his DPR is not that much higher than it would be with a +2 AoMF.
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Yes, and if you can't do your crit trick until you have a +8 BaB...when at min the monk can stun 8 times a day...Who cares! That was my response to someone about saying crits can't do what stunning fist can, and I even said it only works at higher levels in the same post. Do you still think stunning fist and crits are the same thing and that me saying stunning fist is meh means I think crits are meh?
I think you were wrong to dismiss something because it only works, worst case, 25% of the time.
I used criticals to illustrate something that works at the same rate, with less impact, but isn't something you would dismiss.
Do you really not get that?
Way too overly specific of a build there. Saying he could have wind wall is one thing, saying he's a divination ifrit is another. Next thing you know we're talking about a noble Scion oracle or sorcerer with eldritch heritage(arcane).That was just an example of how easy it is for a wizard to get a high initiative, taking out Ifrit I'm left with a 15 at level 4, remove divination and I'm at 13 at level 1 still pretty easy and now I am left with a rather non specific build
I'm fine with that. Nearly everyone grabs reaction and nearly every wizard grabs improved initiative and a +4 initiative familiar, those things are hard to pass up and what you can get instead isn't quiet as good. Not everyone's an ifrit or divination character though.
I think you were wrong to dismiss something because it only works, worst case, 25% of the time.
Except crits don't. With a 15-20 at level 12 you get three attacks. You only get stunning fist once.
Do you really not get that?
Less insults please. I could say the same thing to you. From what I understand your willing to attack minor things, relate loosely related ones, and stuff words in peoples mouths and infer their character and ideas without actually asking them nicely to clarify. Makes you hard to talk to.