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I've read on plenty of threads the debate between prepared vs. spontaneous casters, the advantage of being able to prepare for an adventure vs. the benefit of being able to use any spell you know when you need it most... in the interest of full disclosure I come down on the spontaneous side, but I can certainly see the merits of the prepared argument, and nowhere does this debate get embodied better than Wizard vs. Sorcerer.
So, I set out to make a Sorcerer that tried to take advantage of all of the traits people valued in prepared casters while still maintaining what I think is thier superior flexibility on the battlefield. The main way to do this is to make sure that the Sorcerer has as many spells available to him as possible... so I chose Human as my race, with its favored class option and determined early on to take the Eldritch Heritage feats to access the Arcane Bloodline. Between the granted ability of 'New Arcana' and an 'Expanded Arcana' feat or two, that should go a long way towards giving me a huge spell base.
Next, I wanted to maximize what makes Sorcerers great by taking full advantage of Bloodline powers, feats and abilities. Survivability and just flat out usefulness is very important, especially early on, so I settled on the Fey bloodline, or more specifically the Sylvan Wild-blooded version of the Fey bloodline. This grants an Animal Companion at first which goes a long way towards keeping the caster both alive and effective at lower levels. Coupled with the Familiar/Improved Familiar I will be getting later via Eldritch Heritage, a lot of options begin to open up.
This is the basic build that could be used as a template for anyone wanting to experiment with such a character:
Attributes: (20 point buy)
STR - 10
DEX - 14
CON - 14
INT - 12
WIS - 8
CHA - 16 +2 racial bonus, +1 @ 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th & 20th)
Traits:
Reactionary
Focused Mind
Feats:
1st Eschew Materials
1st Boon Companion
1st Toughness
3rd Spell Focus: ---
5th Greater Spell Focus: ---
7th Skill Focus: Knowledge (Nature)*
7th Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bloodline (Arcane Bond)
9th Improved Familiar
11th Spell Penetration
13th Improved Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bloodline (New Arcana)
13th Quicken Spell *
15th Greater Spell Penetration
17th Greater Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bloodline (School Power)
19th Expanded Arcana
19th Improved Initiative*
* bloodline feats
Between a solid Constitution score and Toughness, the character will have above average hit points for a full caster, and that doesn't take into account a dedicated protector in her Animal Companion or daily use of a spell like False Life.
At 3rd and 5th level there are slots for whatever School you would most like to focus your spells in, but keep in mind that you will be getting a LOT of spells known, and that the intent is to be able to do a lot of things well, not just one or two things superbly (hence no Spell Perfection combos). Whichever school you choose here you would likely want to keep in mind for 'School Power' at 17th level which grants another +2 to DC's.
At 7th level you get the Eldritch Heritage pre-req of a Skill Focus: Knowledge as a Bloodline feat which makes for a nice symetry, following it up with Arcane Bond: Familiar and then Improved Familiar two levels later. Obviously the choice is yours but I elected to take a Faerie Dragon as it fit thematically for a Fey inspired character and I find them to be among the best options available. Having an invisibile scout with illusion powers and levels of Sorcerer to make use of UMD is a pretty strong add-on to an already versatile character.
The rest of the build is fairly straight forward and self-explanatory. You'll want to select your traits of which there are many excellent options - Reactionary and Focused Mind are two very solid if somewhat generic choices. You'll get four skill ranks per level which is nice but really what makes this character shine is her spell selection...
At 9th level, for instance, she will know 8 1st, 7 2nd, 6 3rd and 3 4th level spells (not to mention an additional 9 cantrips). That is a HUGE inventory to draw from and one not limited to just being able to cast one or two of each but to have as many of whatever spell on hand as needed.
At 13th level those numbers grow to 8 1st, 8 2nd, 7 3rd, 7 4th, 6 5th and 4 6th. That's 40 different spells (again, not counting cantrips) that you have at your fingertips at all times. That's more than a Wizard of equal level would have if he used every single spell slot to memorize a different spell, not counting magical gear for either class. If you need ten of a particular spell, you've got it. If you need just one of each, you've got that too. Moreover, you aren't dependant on luck or GM fiat to fill your spell list - you get to pick and choose as you desire. At 20th level that number grows to right at 65 spells known and available at all times, including as many as 10 8th level spells should you choose to invest that way. Not to mention of course Bloodline abilities like Fleeting Glance, etc., the fact that you have an Animal Companion, an Improved Familiar and +4 to the DC's of any spell from a paticular school.
Again, this isn't a character designed around a couple of devastating cookie-cutter spell combos at high levels or intended to uber-focus on one particular school to the exclusion of all else... this is a character designed to bring to the table a lot of that versatility valued in Wizards while keeping intact all of the wonderful things about being a Sorcerer. I'd highly reccomend this character for any Wizard fans who are curious about trying out something slightly different - I think you'll be surprised at just how effective the character is.
I'll post a couple of my builds too, just for comparison
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N Human Sage Sorcerer || 10 10 14 20 10 8 ||Fav(Spells)
Skills(8):Craft(alchemy),Knowledge(arcana),Spellcraft, +5 others
1 Extend Spell,Silent Spell
0th:Acid-Splash
0th:Read-Magic,Detect-Magic,Prestidigitation,Ghost-Sound|1st:Silent-Image, Magic-Missile
2
0th:Mage-Hand
0th:Message
3 Craft Wondrous Item
0th:Dancing-Lights |1st:Identify
1st:Shield
4
1st:Alarm
0th:Detect-Poison|2nd:Web
5 Reach Spell
1st:Disguise-Self |2nd:Invisibility
1st:Charm-Person| 2nd:Glitterdust
6
2nd:Flaming-Sphere
0th:Open/Close|3rd:Fireball
7 Intensify Spell; Still Spell
2nd:False-Life|3rd:Dispel-Magic
1st:Mage-Armor|2nd:Resist-Energy|3rd:Fly
8
3rd:Stinking-Cloud
0th:Light|4th:Black-Tentacles
9 Empower Spell
3rd:Haste|4th:Dimension-Door,Wall-of-Fire
2nd:Detect-Thoughts|3rd:Slow|4th:Wall-of-Ice
10
4th:Charm-Monster
0th:Touch-of-Fatigue|5th:Telekinesis
11 Quicken Spell
4th:Stone-Shape |5th:Overland-Flight
2nd:Scorching-Ray|3rd:Sleet-Storm|4th:Resilient-Sphere |5th:Wall-of-Stone
12
5th:Magic-Jar
6th:Disintegrate
13 Persistent Spell ;Improved Initiative
5th:Dominate-Person |6th:True-seeing,
4th:Enervation|5th:Teleport |6th:Geas/Quest
14
6th:Shadow-Walk
7th:Reverse-Gravity
15 Maximise Spell
6th:Chain-Lightning |7th:Greater Teleport
5th:Prying-Eyes|6th:Veil|7th:Prismatic-Spray
16
7th:Giant-Form
8th:Polymorph-Any-Object
17 Heighten Spell
7th:Scrying-Greater |8th:Power-Word-Stun, Prismatic-Wall
7th:Delayed-Blast-Fireball |8th:Shadow-Evocation-Greater
18
8th:Clenched-Fist
9th:Time-Stop
19 Dazing Spell;Iron Will
8th:Telekinetic-Sphere|9th:Wish
8th:Charm-Monster-Mass |9th:Shades
20
8th:Horrid-Wilting
9th:Meteor-Swarm
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10 10 14 20 10 8
Craft(Alchemy),Spellcraft
Knowlegde(Arcana,Dungeoneering,Engineering,Nature,Planes,Religion)
1 :Expanded Arcana X2|eschew materials,Arcane Bolt |0th:Prestidigitation,Detect-Magic,Read-Magic,Ghost-Sound,Daze|1st:Grease,C olor-Spray,Silent-Image,Protection-from-Evil|
2 :| |0th:Dancing-Lights,Light|
3 :Expanded Arcana|MA(1/day) identify|0th:Mage-Hand|1st:Mage-Armor,Obscuring-Mist|
4 :| |0th:Message|1st:Charm-Person|2nd:Glitterdust|
5 :Expanded Arcana| invisibility|1st:Mount,Enlarge-Person,Feather-Fall,Shield|2nd:Web|
6 :| |0th:Mending|2nd:Levitate|3rd:Sleet-Storm|
7 :Expanded Arcana|Still Spell,MA(2/day) dispel-magic|1st:Unseen-Servant|2nd:Hideous-Laughter,Resist-Energy,Mirror-I mage,Rope-Trick|3rd:Fly|
8 :| |0th:Detect-Poison|3rd:Stinking-Cloud|4th:Black-Tentacles|
9 :Expanded Arcana| dimension-door|2nd:Pyrotechnics|3rd:Wind-Wall,Haste,Slow,Phantom-Steed|4th: Resilient-Sphere,Confusion|
10:| |0th:Open/Close|4th:Wall-of-Ice|5th:Telekinesis|
11:Expanded Arcana|Metamagic Adept(3/day) overland-flight|2nd:Minor-Image|3rd:Tiny-Hut|4th:Enervation,Fear,Stone-Shap e,Arcane-Eye|5th:Magic-Jar|
12:| |5th:Wall-of-Stone|6th:Suggestion-Mass|
13:Expanded Arcana|Spell Focus true-seeing|4th:Animate-Dead|5th:Wall-of-Force,Teleport,Dominate-Person,Per sistent-Image|6th:Contingency,Programmed-Image|
14:| |6th:Forceful-Hand|7th:Reverse-Gravity|
15:Expanded Arcana|School Power,MA(4/day) greater-teleport|5th:Telepathic-Bond|6th:Circle-of-Death,Antimagic-Field,Di sintegrate,Dispel-Magic-Greater|7th:Gaint-Form-I|
16:| |7th:Project-Image|8th:Polymorph-Any-Object|
17:Expanded Arcana| power-word-stun|7th:Grasping-Hand,Arcane-Sight-Greater,Limited-Wish,Scrying -Greater|8th:Clone,Form-of-the-Dragon-III|
18:| |8th:Prismatic-Wall|9th:Time-Stop|
19:Expanded Arcana|Spell Focus,MA(5/day) wish|8th:Horrid-Wilting,Moment-of-Prescience|9th:Prismatic-Sphere,Mage's-Di sjunction|
20:|Arcane Apotheosis |8th:Maze|9th:Astral-Projection|
I like the idea but I think you would get a better result simply by being an Arcane bloodline from the start and using the Feats you are sinking into the Eldritch Heritage Chain to add more metamagic feats.
Heighten or Persistent Spell allow you to keep lower level spells relevant into higher levels. Dazing Spell turns all of your Evocations into Battlefield Control. Reach spell makes all of those unpleasant touch spells into ranged or extends the range of those powerful close spells like Dominate Person to a distance where the target wont see it coming. Piercing Spell will let you laugh at SR. Silent Spell lets your Cleric buddy shut down the enemy caster without impeding you/
You can skip Spell Perfection if you want but the reality is that taking it does not change the fact that you are an enormously versatile caster with a huge range of options and one really exceptionally nasty one.
That's not bad advice at all, and much of it was/should be considered. For me, casters struggle a little bit to be as relevant as they can be at lower levels and I tend not to do a whole lot of epic-level gaming - as such, getting an AC at 1st is much more valuable to me than metamagic feats that I won't get to use until later. Moreover, I find the full round casting time for metamagic feats more than a little prohibitive. I also think abilities like Fleeting Glance et al are too good to pass up.
Having said that, if I WERE going to work towards a Spell Perfection choice, I would probably select Enervation, and put all of my DC bumps in a school other than Necromancy to maintain that versatility.
get arcane as base bloodline, grab absolutely Reach spell. And anyway, 95% of your character is your spells list so work on that.
here is my sample assuming human for bonus spells
Feats: Improved Initiative (1); Toughtness (1); Reach Spell (3); Persistent Spell (5); Improved Familiar (7); Combat Casting(7B); Maximize Spell (9); Dazing Spell (11); Quicken Spell (13); Spell Focus (13B); Spell Perfection (15); Expanded Arcana (19); Spell Focus (19B);
Traits: Magical Lineage; Reactionary
0- 12 : Detect Magic; Read Magic; Light; Prestidigitation; Acid Splash; Mage Hand; Open/Close; Detect Poison; Dancing Lights; Arcane Mark; Ghost Sound; Mending
1- 7+1 : Magic Missile*(Evo); Identify(B)(Div); Feather Fall(Tra); Charme(Enc); True Strike(Div); Grease(Con); Mage Armor(Con); Ray Of Enfeeblement(Nec); [Sleep (Enc)]; [Color Spray(Ill)]
2- 7+1 : Scorching Ray*(Evo); Invisibility(B)(Ill); Resist Energy(Abj); See Invisibility(Div); Mirror Image(Ill); Glitterdust(Con); Hideous Laughter(Enc); Knock(Tra)
3- 6+1 : Fireball*(Evo); Dispel Magic(B)(Abj); Fly(Tra); Ray of Exhaustion(Nec); Haste(Tra); Sleet Storm(Con); Suggestion(Enc); [Deep Slumber(Enc)]
4- 7+1 : Invisibility, Greater(Ill); Dimension Door (B)(Con); Black Tentacles(Con); Summon Monster IV(Con); Scrying(Div); Ball Lightning*(Evo); Resilient Sphere(Evo); Enervation(Nec)
5- 6+1 : Overland Flight (B)(Tra); Telekinesis(Tra); Suffocation(Nec); Sending(Evo); Teleport(Con); Corrosive Consumption*(Con); Persistent Image(Ill); [Wall of Stone(Con)];
6- 6+1 : Disintegrate*(Tra); True Seeing (B)(Div); Chain Lightning*(Evo); Dispel Magic, Greater(Abj); Mislead(Ill); Contingency(Evo) ; Summon Monster VI(Con);
7- 5+1 : Waves of Exhaustion(Nec); Teleport, Greater (B)(Con); Limited Wish(Uni); Plane Shift(Con); Caustic Eruption*(Con); Giant Form I(Tra); [Summon Monster VII(Con)]
8- 7+1 : Horrid Wilting*(Nec); Moment of Prescience(Div); Power Word Stun (B)(Enc); Maze(Con); Clenched Fist(Evo); Summon Monster VIII(Evo); Polymorph Any Object(Tra); Euphoric Tranquility(Enc)
9- 3+1 : Mage's Disjunction(Abj); Time Stop(Tra); Wish (B)(Uni); Suffocation, Mass(Nec); Summon Monster IX(Evo)[Feat]
[bracketed for sobstitution on higher levels]
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I'm running a VERY similar caster right now (Sylvan Sorcerer, trying to make her very versatile, but still focusing a bit on illusions).
I can post my build later tonight when I get home from work, but I wanted to point out a few items that are SUPER helpful for hitting that versatility that you're going for.
First, Pages of Spell Knowledge are exellent.
Secondly, the Mnemonic Vestment lets you prepare a single spell per day from a scroll, without using up the scrolls. Excellent way to get one of those utility spells based on where your PFS scenario is beginning, without spending a ton of money using up scrolls (in Irrisen, for example, you could prepare endure elements. In the Mwangi Expanse, you could prepare something that lets you move through undergrowth easily, etc.)
Thirdly, and probably most powerfully, is the Ring of Spell Knowledge. At first I had thought that this was just simply less useful than the Pages, however there is a line in the description that makes the Ring SOOO useful. "Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class’ spell list."
What this means is that you can buy a scroll of a spell that is not on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, teach it to your ring (with a DC 20 Spellcraft check, not too hard to hit) and suddenly you know that spell. Also note that the ring's description states that ARCANE spells that are not on your spell list are treated as one level higher, but it says nothing about divine spells. One of my favorite uses for this is to get a Type II one (that you can teach up to 2nd-level spells) and teach it Bestow Grace. Suddenly I can cast a Paladin spell with a normal 2nd-level spell slot that adds +7 (huge Charisma modifier on this caster) to all of my saves!
You can also combine the Ring of Spell Knowledge with the Meridian Belt to be able to wear FOUR of these rings at a time, and just switch which one is active at any given moment using a swift action.
andreww and cartmanbeck...
Just wanted to mention that my builds tend to be a little skewed towards our home games, specifically that 1) Dazing Spell is not allowed and 2) we play in a fairly low magic campaign where most magic is unique and is rarely if ever available for sale.
Obviously that affects my usual selections and probably my perspective - I never pre-plan items as part of a build for instance.
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andreww and cartmanbeck...
Just wanted to mention that my builds tend to be a little skewed towards our home games, specifically that 1) Dazing Spell is not allowed and 2) we play in a fairly low magic campaign where most magic is unique and is rarely if ever available for sale.
Obviously that affects my usual selections and probably my perspective - I never pre-plan items as part of a build for instance.
Ah, fair enough. My character is for PFS, so I can buy whatever I can afford, essentially. No magic item creation, though!
Best build for a Generalist would be a half-elf imo. Paragon Surge lets you take Expanded Arcana temporarily allowing you to have any and every spell accessible from the wizard list, it costs two spells to do it though.
Dot. I'll want to reference this.
Wiggz, have you considered writing a sorcerer guide? This is impressive. I was pretty strong in the Wizard camp, but I will reconsider following this. Thanks for your time and effort. Same to everyone else who has/will contribute.
It would but I am not sure anyone sane allows it.
Yeah, I'm trying to avoid falling prey to the Paragon Surge gimmick...
Dot. I'll want to reference this.
Wiggz, have you considered writing a sorcerer guide? This is impressive. I was pretty strong in the Wizard camp, but I will reconsider following this. Thanks for your time and effort. Same to everyone else who has/will contribute.
I'm not sure I have the patience to do one worthy of the subject matter, but thanks for the kind words.
The truth is, in the past my Sorcerers have all been very specialized, iconic even. I have a Kitsune Crossblooded Sorcerer (Fey-Serpent) that I'm prepping for a Serpent's Skull run, a classic Human Draconic Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple, a trickster Gnomish Rakshasa Sorcerer and even a Dwarven Primal Earth Sorcerer who focuses almost purely on Conjuration spells and earth magic...
Hard to say. Seems odd that it calls out arcane spells specifically for the increased level. Just by reading it, it seems to work fine.
EDIT: I mean fine for any spell, as cartmanbeck said.
Hard to say. Seems odd that it calls out arcane spells specifically for the increased level. Just by reading it, it seems to work fine.
RAI, I'd definitely limit it to arcane spells.
The truth is, in the past my Sorcerers have all been very specialized, iconic even. I have a Kitsune Crossblooded Sorcerer (Fey-Serpent) that I'm prepping for a Serpent's Skull run, a classic Human Draconic Sorcerer/Dragon Disciple, a trickster Gnomish Rakshasa Sorcerer and even a Dwarven Primal Earth Sorcerer who focuses almost purely on Conjuration spells and earth magic...They kind of have to be because no matter what tricks one tries to pull, they DO have a fixed limit on their spell knowledge. The better played sorcerers don't try to be wizards, they settle on a theme, a handle, and make it work.
I can understand that opinion, but its not necessarily the truth. The build above for instance - the moment the Wizard/Sorcerer steps foot out his door, this Sorcerer has a wider range of ability, a greater versatility than the Wizard does.
The specialized builds get very good at certain things, but a more general build like the one above gives up nothing to the Wizard in my opinion - especially once you consider that the Sorcerer gets to choose his spells.
Depends on the Wizard player.
If a Wizard has a "standard list" of spells that he prepares the sorcerer will smash him.
A great Wizard plays with a Batman mechanic. Always has a back-up plan and can retreat when everything goes to hell, then he makes a plan to take out the enemy. He can prepare a tailored specialize list to take out a particular enemy.
A sorcerer can never use that kind of specialization without gimping his character.
Tactical versus Strategic powers. The effect of each depends on play style and GM style.
As for the Ring of Spell Knowledge, that is very useful and potentially quite abusive.
Being able to raid other spell lists for the best spells has long been a road to overpowered spellcasters.
But, it does seem to work exactly as described above.
Bestow Grace, however, specifically notes 'another creature' as the target. Technically, you can't cast it on yourself.
It also describes holy virtue. Unless you can make me think you have some holy virtue...:)
==Aelryinth
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As for the Ring of Spell Knowledge, that is very useful and potentially quite abusive.
Being able to raid other spell lists for the best spells has long been a road to overpowered spellcasters.
But, it does seem to work exactly as described above.
Bestow Grace, however, specifically notes 'another creature' as the target. Technically, you can't cast it on yourself.
It also describes holy virtue. Unless you can make me think you have some holy virtue...:)
==Aelryinth
Sorcerers can be just as holy as Paladins! The iconic Sorcerer, Seoni, is a devout worshipper of Pharasma.
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Ring of Spell Knowledge
Spontaneous caster prepares any spell of 3rd level or lower as a standard action.
No special build required.
Wow, never even though about it being a Standard action. I had assumed the "through study" part would at least require you to spend some time with the scroll or whatever, but you're right, it seems to just be an un-named action, which defaults to Standard. WowHaxBroken!
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The specialized builds get very good at certain things, but a more general build like the one above gives up nothing to the Wizard in my opinion - especially once you consider that the Sorcerer gets to choose his spells.No he doesn't really. Not anymore than the Wizard chooses what Discovery he'll get at the designated levels. Those are PLAYER choices, not character choices.... for the most part.
And there's a big caveat to your declaration, and that is the options available to the Wizard BEFORE he steps out that door. He can research his problem and create a solution based on the spells in his books. The Sorcerer is pretty much tied to his spell selection. He does have greater casting flexibility, but the Wizard has more prepatory flexibility. The choice for the player in selecting a class is what he wants more.
In my experience the big advantage of Wizard 'preparation' is a bit of an RPG-urban myth... it presumes that 1) you have all of the appropriate knowledge skills, 2) you have all of the appropriate diviniation spells to figure out what you're going to face, 3) that nothing changes form when the divinations are cast and nothing is shielded or otherwise protected from your divinations, 3) you have access to all of the spells that your divination spells tell you you might need and 4) you manage to correctly guess how many of which spell to use in your various slots. That's an awful lot of 'ifs' and 'maybes' in there.
Here's an exercise - first, make a list of what spells you think it would be reasonable for a 7th level Wizard to have access to, then read the following adventure set-up (something we recently ran):
The party is hired to investigate a floating reef of sorts, a mass of shipwrecks tangled up in giant kelp that drifts through the jetstream. Most sailors won't go near it because of the commonly held belief that it is haunted by sailors who died in those wrecks... one merchant, however, believes that he has discovered documents which suggests ships from a tribute fleet that were lost at sea long ago may have ended up in that mass of wreckage and needs a group to sail out there and check it out. He's managed to hire a captain who will sail as close as a mile from the wreck and let the PC's row out to the reef from there. Presumably there is adequate time to prepare aboard ship en route.
Okay, you're a 7th level Wizard, how do you prepare for your adventure?
I think I might have to take on the task of making a Guide to the Generalist Sorcerer once I get back from Gencon. Are people interested enough? Show of hands, please? :)
I'm happy to help if that's what you're asking - I just never, ever include equipment as part of a character's build. To me a character is defined by what he can do, not what he can buy... too many variables regarding what his GM might allow when it comes to magic items for sale at Ye Olde Magic Shoppe.
Magical equipment can certainly augment or amplify what a character can do, but in my opinion it should never, ever define it.
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I think I might have to take on the task of making a Guide to the Generalist Sorcerer once I get back from Gencon. Are people interested enough? Show of hands, please? :)I'm happy to help if that's what you're asking - I just never, ever include equipment as part of a character's build. To me a character is defined by what he can do, not what he can buy... too many variables regarding what his GM might allow when it comes to magic items for sale at Ye Olde Magic Shoppe.
Magical equipment can certainly augment or amplify what a character can do, but in my opinion it should never, ever define it.
That's fair. I write my guides assuming that your GM will allow anything from a Paizo-written source, which obviously is not always the case. Equipment is usually the last thing to be mentioned, but I do feel it's important to do so.
And no I wasn't specifically asking for your help, but I'd gladly take it. I was more asking for a show of hands that people on this thread would be interested in reading it. :)
I think I might have to take on the task of making a Guide to the Generalist Sorcerer once I get back from Gencon. Are people interested enough? Show of hands, please? :)I'm happy to help if that's what you're asking - I just never, ever include equipment as part of a character's build. To me a character is defined by what he can do, not what he can buy... too many variables regarding what his GM might allow when it comes to magic items for sale at Ye Olde Magic Shoppe.
Magical equipment can certainly augment or amplify what a character can do, but in my opinion it should never, ever define it.
That's fair. I write my guides assuming that your GM will allow anything from a Paizo-written source, which obviously is not always the case. Equipment is usually the last thing to be mentioned, but I do feel it's important to do so.
And no I wasn't specifically asking for your help, but I'd gladly take it. I was more asking for a show of hands that people on this thread would be interested in reading it. :)
Obviously I'd read it as well. Always looking to learn and it means less work on my part ;)
No, the point I was making was when equipment becomes an integral part of a build. Its one thing to say 'here's how you can build a character that is well-rounded, powerful and able to do X as well as Y and Z. Also, here are some particularly useful items which might make you even more effective'... as opposed to something like 'at this level you need to buy this specific items and then at this level you need to trade it in for this item, so that the combo you've built your character around will really work'...
I've seen too many great wizards literally built around things like multiple metamagic rods and pearls and so on when that's not building, its buying. If your character 'won't work' without a list of specific magic items, then you don't have a character, you've got a shopping list.
I'll definitely pay attention to such a guide, cartmanbeck. This conversation is already very intriguing to me.
I have long been a proponent of overall wizard superiority in most campaigns. The sorcerer is just so much.cooler, though. I would love to play one that isn't locked into a few strategies.
I'm considering a guide myself for something similar. I think I will explore the possibilities of a Generalist sorcerer using Words of Power. The existing guide for WoP sorcerers is supremely good, but I think this niche could use some further exploring.
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I'll definitely pay attention to such a guide, cartmanbeck. This conversation is already very intriguing to me.
I have long been a proponent of overall wizard superiority in most campaigns. The sorcerer is just so much.cooler, though. I would love to play one that isn't locked into a few strategies.
I'm considering a guide myself for something similar. I think I will explore the possibilities of a Generalist sorcerer using Words of Power. The existing guide for WoP sorcerers is supremely good, but I think this niche could use some further exploring.
I don't have any experience with the Words of Power rules, but I have always found Sorcerer's to be the more versatile of the two classes - if I need a dozen Charm Persons during an adventuring day, I've got them. If I need a dozen Fireballs instead, I've got them. If it turns out I need lots of Invisibility I've got it, and I didn't have to skip on my Charms or Fireballs to make sure I did.
I can see the challenge of trying to 'guess' which spells and which combination of spells (and metamagic spells) might be just right for an upcoming adventure, and I imagien that's a great deal of fun for some... but it seems like the Wizard's 'versatility' relies on an awful lot on things that are technically out of their hands, often at the mercy of the GM or just blind luck. Spell selection is usually a choice between many good options - Wizards have to choose one option and in so doing reject many others whereas Sorcerers for the most part don't.
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Just throwing this out there for those who might be dubious of the Animal Companion route or would prefer the eventualk option of Spell Perfection; this is the feat list I would reccomend:
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Feats:
1st - Eschew Materials
1st - Spell Focus: Enchantment
1st - Greater Spell Focus: Enchantment
3rd - Reach Spell
5th - Heighten Spell
7th - Skill Focus: Knowledge - Nature*
7th - Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bloodline (Arcane Bond - Familiar)
9th - Improved Familiar (Faerie Dragon)
11th - Spell Penetration
13th - Quicken Spell*
13th - Improved Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bloodline (Expanded Arcana)
15th - Spell Perfection: Enervation or Dominate Person or Hold Monster
17th - Greater Eldritch Heritage: Arcane Bloodline (School Power - Enchantment)
19th - Improved Initiative*
19th - Persistent Spell
Right off the bat you'll start off with DC:18 Sleep spells which will eventually morph into DC: 21 Deep Slumber spells; that provides a pretty nice staple from which to build. You'll still get a huge number of spells to choose from and while you won't have the built-in advantage of an Animal Companion from day 1, you will evetually get to take advantage of Spell Perfection. The instinct would be to lean towards a compulsion spell for that Perfection choice, but a non-save option like Enervation could pay some pretty big dividends too and give you another bullet in your gun besides enchantments and direct damage. Fey magic helps out a lot with troublesome Spell Resistance.
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Hand also raised.
I also prefer Sorcerers to Wizards. Being able to re-adjust your spell loadout from day to day sounds cool, and Wizards will always have more spells in their books than a Sorcerer of the same level knows, but a lot of the advantage of having a lot of spells in your book fades when you realize how little time it takes to scribe all the spells you care about of a certain level into your spellbook.
Given access to a reasonably large city, a Wizard can learn a new 1st-level spell for 5g and a Spellcraft check he can take 10 on and beat. You'd be amazed how quickly a Wizard gets to the point of "Level up, I learn new spells! Wait, I already know all the good ones at this level. Alright, what's the best of the dross that's left?"
Hand also raised.
I also prefer Sorcerers to Wizards. Being able to re-adjust your spell loadout from day to day sounds cool, and Wizards will always have more spells in their books than a Sorcerer of the same level knows, but a lot of the advantage of having a lot of spells in your book fades when you realize how little time it takes to scribe all the spells you care about of a certain level into your spellbook.
Given access to a reasonably large city, a Wizard can learn a new 1st-level spell for 5g and a Spellcraft check he can take 10 on and beat. You'd be amazed how quickly a Wizard gets to the point of "Level up, I learn new spells! Wait, I already know all the good ones at this level. Alright, what's the best of the dross that's left?"
For me its the difference between having 2 of something, then 1 of something, then 2 of something else rather than having access to up to 5 of a bunch of things depending on what need arrises. HUGE advantage in versatility to my mind.
I am a tad weird I guess, but I look at wizards as being chess masters. Can I prepare for all the eventualities of the day? if yes I win, if no I feel embarrassment and its back to the drawing board. the win vs loss is what drives me to always do better.
Sorcerers are more a small bag of tricks that ya hope work no matter what is going on. Yes I can trade things out, but when it can be multiple seasons between that ability it can burn.
Now all this really changes hugely based on campaign. If it is a fast paced running all over hell's half acres with little to no downtime and no magic selling the sorcerer is a no brainer.
Play in a sandbox like Kingmaker and wizards just become so overpowered with crafting and research.
Winding down here but as a general sorcerer I stife to go about 1/3 damage, 1/3 utility, and 1/3 control. Seems to help me always have something to do. May not be the best but I never feel useless. And spells are 3/4 or more of a caster, feats are 1/4 as they buff said spells.
You people might want to take a look at noble scion of war. CHA instead of DEX applied to INI is just great, since it´s gonna be your highest stat anyway. You then can still add improved initiative, a +1 dueling cestus and perhaps a greensting scorpion as a familiar.
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For me its the difference between having 2 of something, then 1 of something, then 2 of something else rather than having access to up to 5 of a bunch of things depending on what need arrises. HUGE advantage in versatility to my mind.Hand also raised.
I also prefer Sorcerers to Wizards. Being able to re-adjust your spell loadout from day to day sounds cool, and Wizards will always have more spells in their books than a Sorcerer of the same level knows, but a lot of the advantage of having a lot of spells in your book fades when you realize how little time it takes to scribe all the spells you care about of a certain level into your spellbook.
Given access to a reasonably large city, a Wizard can learn a new 1st-level spell for 5g and a Spellcraft check he can take 10 on and beat. You'd be amazed how quickly a Wizard gets to the point of "Level up, I learn new spells! Wait, I already know all the good ones at this level. Alright, what's the best of the dross that's left?"
There's also the fact that sorcerers just straight up get more spells per day than Wizards. The difference isn't as high as it was in 3.5, but really it's the difference between 2 of Spell X, 1 of Spell Y, and 2 of Spell Z, rather than having access to 6 or 7 of Spells X, Y, and Z, as needed.
Then again, it's also the difference between an Int-based chracter and a Cha-based character. Spellcasting aside, sometimes they just FEEL different.
I am quite certain that this is not an intended power of the Ring, and I don't allow it.
Thirdly, and probably most powerfully, is the Ring of Spell Knowledge. At first I had thought that this was just simply less useful than the Pages, however there is a line in the description that makes the Ring SOOO useful. "Thereafter, the arcane spellcaster may cast the spell as though she knew the spell and it appeared on her class’ spell list."
What this means is that you can buy a scroll of a spell that is not on the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list, teach it to your ring (with a DC 20 Spellcraft check, not too hard to hit) and suddenly you know that spell. Also note that the ring's description states that ARCANE spells that are not on your spell list are treated as one level higher, but it says nothing about divine spells. One of my favorite uses for this is to get a Type II one (that you can teach up to 2nd-level spells) and teach it Bestow Grace. Suddenly I can cast a Paladin...
It bumps a spell level,
Arcane spells that do not appear on the wearer’s class list are treated as one level higher for all purposes (storage and casting).
And - I agree. As written Besto Grace can't be used on self just as Liberating Command can't.
Yeah, I'm trying to avoid falling prey to the Paragon Surge gimmick...
I smiled when I read this.