Nargrakhan's page

Where do you live that property tax is calculated based on value of possessions? Where do you live that owning a (1) car disqualifies you for assistance programs? When did property value start being equal to net worth? When did net worth start going up when you get up-side down in a terrible auto loan?

But none of that has any relevance to how I feel about Bob. I hold no grudge against people who accept government assistance and happen to have a decent, reliable used car. If it goes fast and gets fast fast too, that's cool. It really has no bearing on me or my situation. Do I suddenly pay less in taxes if Bob buys a hybrid sedan? Or a minivan? What level of crappy car is appropriate for a poor person to own?

The truth of the matter is we could completely abolish 100% of entitlement programs and it wouldn't come close to fixing the deficit we are in. (Unless you count tax breaks for corporations as entitlement programs.) Even with 100% of entitlement programs off-the-books the economy would still suck right now. Entitlement spending is not an issue except in the minds of angry, little, petty, people who insist on finding someone to scapegoat their problems on.

Double bonus points if the person you find is working, getting paid under the table somewhere (so the owner of that business can avoid paying their share of income tax and overtime) busting their ass to make ends meet but having to deal with paying for medical bills, and diapers, and car repairs, and $4 gasoline, spouse's community college, all on top of rent/bills/tithe; because the important part is that person is stealing from you by having a job at the same time they are drawing SNAP benefits.

QUADRUPLE AWESOMEY QUATLOO CAPTAIN POPETASTIC POINTS if that person likes to drink a 6 pack of of domestic-sub premium beer in the 36 hours they call a weekend. That makes them a true drain on society. F!$!ing bastards.

They're called Asset Tests. Here's a site that answers your questions:

Asset Limits In Your State

Owning a car does not automatically disqualify... it's the VALUE of that car. My state is very strict. Some are not. What's the limit? Check the site.

My state also charges 4% property tax for each car owned every year. New 100K Jag would be $4000 a year... 10K economy car would be $400. State values the car based on the previous year's KBB listing. They charge more for owned homes... boats... etc.

What are each state's policy on asset taxes? There's sites for that too. Here's one:

Tangible Personal Property Tax

***EDIT***
Major Disclaimer: I'm using these linked sites because it's convenient. NOT because I may or may not believe in their political stance/message. Just wanna get that out of the way, in case someone starts digging through them.

Ya know... poor people don't have to do anything illegal to have nice stuff. There's a LOT of scenarios... but here's one I know actually happened.

There's a guy named Bob on SNAP, TANF, and various other welfare programs. Bob works at Taco Bell, because the feds and state don't give welfare to people who can work. After a year or two, Bob has managed to save $1000 in cash from his job -- and maybe some extra gift money from friends and family who are better off than him. Bob uses that money (which he EARNED, not stole from the gov'ment programs or pulled a scam) and trades in his rundown hatchback (given to him by dad years ago) to buy a used sports car (whom the car dealer offered a loan deal with that $1000 down payment).

Now Bob -- who is still a poor person on welfare -- has a nice car. Better than mine, despite the fact I'm not on welfare and make more than him.

Okay... we can probably all agree that Bob made a terrible decision here. That car introduces property taxes, increased gas payments, and an insane interest loan... which all just make him poorer. There's a lot of things he could have used that $1000, which could have helped him STOP being poor, but he didn't do that. Guess what? He did nothing illegal. Stupid? Tremendously. Still makes him poor? Absolutely. But illegal? No. It was HIS money. Just like rich people, the poor can do what they want with their hard earned cash... however the difference is, the poor can't afford to make wasteful decisions like them.

People do that with clothes... with their phone... a lot of things. It's unintelligent choices, but not illegal. That's how a few of the poor people I know, have nice stuff (though most do not). It's not scamming the system... it's using the system as a crutch, when they might have moments to have found a way off it, but squandered the chance for something stupid and keeping them on the crutch.

***EDIT***
Incidentally... Bob will discover that by owning a luxury car, he increases his property value, which will invalidate him to being eligible for some of the welfare programs he's been relying on. That will make his life even more miserable, because now he will be even more poor... but hey, he has a nice car...

Nargrakhan wrote:

Look... I can think of a dozen ways I could use SNAP or TANF to buy crack or street girls... but all of them are illegal and require knowing someone in the system who can work the corruption (a clerk or desk jokey for example). Or using the criminal blackmarket and illegal sites. It DOES happen, but most of them fail or are discovered fairly quick... usually after $100 is stolen.

"We" have provided lots of links to this before (in other threads), proving that the vast majority of fraud being committed is actually being done by the businesses in the program, not the welfare recipients as a whole. And also that the total amount of fraud is in the very low percentage (I believe it's less than 2%, but that's just off the top of my head). Andrew has been provided with this evidence several times.

Apparently none of it sticks and it's easier to continue with preconceived notions. The "Welfare Queens" are a Reagan myth.
I know, I know, I could now link to the studies showing that facts seldom change strongly held beliefs. :-p

SNAP and TANF, at the cashier to customer level, is fairly tight. Not only is there a camera recording the cashier, but there's papers that need to be signed. It's easier to pull off a regular credit card scam, than trying to rip off SNAP and TANF. I hate to admit it, but I used to HATE seeing people using either welfare program and having a lot of items in their cart, because it meant it would be a loooooong boring process. You have to check what they're buying, and see if there's a cheaper substitute or allowed. Moreover... it's kinda heartless. I remember telling people they couldn't buy a certain food item, because it was considered "premium brand" and they had to swap it with the cheap (often nastier tasting) stuff. I knew why they didn't want the garbage brand -- I sure has hell wouldn't eat it myself -- but rules are rules and they either got that or nothing at all.

***EDIT***
And yes... I know poor people might not have a right to be picky about what their food taste like, but that cardboard tasting oatmeal paste that's like sandy grit in your mouth is disgusting. I know they say you'll eat anything if you're hungry... but still... yuck...

that is just snap, there is more to it

Sure there's more programs, but they all have a function. Specifics depend on the program.

http://www.michigan.gov/dhs/0,4562,7-124-5453_5526---,00.html

http://www.michigan.gov/dhs/0,4562,7-124-5453_5526_61229---,00.html
Even lists many ATMs that you can get cash off of

That's TANF related they're using, not SNAP... and you have to submit the receipts when using TANF with a multipage application that justifies why you needed to buy it. Total pain in the butt. Plus, to be perfectly honest, the typical poor person doesn't get much money for TANF. The average I saw spent was like $20. Most I ever saw a single family have spent was $50 (and it was a BIG family).

Look... I can think of a dozen ways I could use SNAP or TANF to buy crack or street girls... but all of them are illegal and require knowing someone in the system who can work the corruption (a clerk or desk jokey for example). Or using the criminal blackmarket and illegal sites. It DOES happen, but most of them fail or are discovered fairly quick... usually after $100 is stolen.

There's no fool proof system with money. The gov'ment ran programs have this kind of corruption. The corporate ran programs have this kind of corruption. Donation programs have this kind of corruption. Anything that involves money and people, will have this kind of corruption. It's what bad people do... however that doesn't mean government, corporation, or donation programs are so inherently flawed, they're not worth it... or that it doesn't get noticed to be fixed.

Just report what you saw... 99.9% chance it's illegal and will be terminated with prejudice.

***EDIT***
Corrected wording.

Freehold DM wrote:

Andrew R wrote:

GentleGiant wrote:

Andrew R wrote:

And i do not say to get rid of it entirely, i just want to take the fun out of it so it is not abused so much. My current idea is to NOT give them a card, tie it to state ID and only that person may use it. Mark the card "not eligible to purchase alcohol, lotto or tobacco" as they have no business buying those while taking from others. Only allow the card to buy actual food not redbull. Make them all take a class about shopping smart and cooking. DO NOT give them more if they continue to have kids they do not need insensitive to keep making the problem worse. Revoke it for criminal actions, if they don't care about their kids enough to leave the meth alone goe the kids to someone that gives a damn

Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP)

Eligible Food Items

Quote:

Households CANNOT use SNAP benefits to buy:

Beer, wine, liquor, cigarettes or tobacco

So, are you going to fess up to the fact that you have this stubborn idea of what it means to be on welfare which has no correlation to reality?

Here in MI they can get cash off the card and buy all of that at whim

Doesn't work that way here, and I live in the cesspool of sin known as New York. You have to exchange goods(perhaps services, but that's quite rare) in order to do that.

We have a system connected to snap called "cash assistance" meant to help cover bills and buy goods where cards are not an option. It is usable for anything, including drugs and strippers as it is cash in hand

Supermarket guy again. That's program is probably TANF or one of it's derivatives. There's a LOT of paperwork involved when using it, to justify what you buy with it.

Lapses are usually due to bureaucratic laziness or corruption. Again, please report it if seen. Gov'ment will shut it down lightning quick. Many States are "you are guilty until you've proven yourself innocent" with TANF and the like.

In fact, one can be a real jerk and report someone completely innocent, making their difficult situation even more difficult, since they have to resubmit paperwork to reinstate the benefit. That's how paranoid the program is...

***EDIT***
It's not SNAP though... SNAP is a welfare program, but it doesn't allow cash in.

GentleGiant wrote:

Andrew R wrote:

And i do not say to get rid of it entirely, i just want to take the fun out of it so it is not abused so much. My current idea is to NOT give them a card, tie it to state ID and only that person may use it. Mark the card "not eligible to purchase alcohol, lotto or tobacco" as they have no business buying those while taking from others. Only allow the card to buy actual food not redbull. Make them all take a class about shopping smart and cooking. DO NOT give them more if they continue to have kids they do not need insensitive to keep making the problem worse. Revoke it for criminal actions, if they don't care about their kids enough to leave the meth alone goe the kids to someone that gives a damn

Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP)

Eligible Food Items

Quote:

Households CANNOT use SNAP benefits to buy:

Beer, wine, liquor, cigarettes or tobacco

So, are you going to fess up to the fact that you have this stubborn idea of what it means to be on welfare which has no correlation to reality?

Here in MI they can get cash off the card and buy all of that at whim

That's illegal. You can't exchange SNAP for cash:

http://www.fns.usda.gov/fraud/what-snap-fraud

I used to work in a supermarket. They told us to look out for scams that tried stunts geared for that. Report the people who are doing it: the gov'ment will revoke their SNAP. Again, worked in a supermarket... seen it done.

If a character were to wear two Rings of Regeneration, would the effect stack? Does the character heal 2 points of damage per round, or just 1 point of damage per round?

If an undead creature somehow finds a means to possess immunity to necromancy mind-affecting effects, does this mean they are also immune to clerical abilities such as Command Undead or Turn Undead?

Wording to the cleric's Command Undead seems to indicate it has the same strengths/limitations as the Control Undead spell. Turn Undead makes no reference to any Necromancy spell... though it's an "undead only" mind-affect of sorts.

Is the maximum amount of HD a caster can control with Lesser Animate Dead separate from Animate Dead?

Let's say 40 HD is my max for Lesser Animate Dead. If I then cast Animate Dead, will I lose control of skeletons because 40 HD is the overall maximum for me... or can I now add 40 HD more (thus totaling 80 HD) because Animate Dead is considered a separate pool of HD?

Hello:

Could I please get Order #2788863 cancelled? It's been in processing for a week, and I found the product at a local game store.

Thank you.

1. Titan Mauler Archetype

2. Nodachi

3. ???

4. SEPHIROTH!!!

Question #1: For critical hits, does the spell Wreath of Blades use natural 20 as per spells or 19–20 as per daggers?

Question #2: For critical hits, would it benefit from using keen daggers in either situation from Question #1?

Why isn't there an official "Protection from Neutral" spell anyways?

Is it because such a spell would offer protection from 5 alignments, instead of 3?

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but there's nothing that says Hirelings don't gain XP. There's also nothing that says Hirelings do gain XP. Hirelings are NPC's entirely under the GM's purview. They gain and/or do not gain at his whim or as the campaign requires.

On a minor note: Hirelings are not Followers. A PC can have a Cohort and max out her number of Followers, but still be able to acquire a legion of Hirelings.

Personally, I tend to view that NPC's gain via the Leadership feat are loyal to the PC out of a sense of duty, friendship, shared ideals, etc. If treated fairly and with respect, they will walk with the PC through the Gates of Hell itself. I also let the player have weighted input on their stats and gear (more so for the Cohort than the Followers).

Hirelings are just NPC's (usually) gained via money or a favor. They're in it for whatever task they were paid to do, but really not much else. The classical person who'd walk out and say, "it's not in my contract," when the task wasn't. I let the PC make a request for whatever area of competence the Hireling has (an Adept that can cast Heal, an Expert who can forge a masterwork weapon), since that's why he's getting hired, but the stats are entirely mine and mine alone to decide (thus rendering the XP thing moot).

I believe the intention is only Cohorts gain XP, with certain limitations, as per the Leadership feat. Followers do not gain XP. Hirelings and Henchmen are not Cohorts.

Also, Hirelings and Henchmen are typically considered GM controlled NPC's. If they need to gain a level for whatever purpose, then it happens at the GM's prerogative... as would the skill and feat selection of said NPC. XP would be irrelevant.

Having a custom tailored NPC that gains strength over time (with GM oversight and approval) is again, a Cohort thing.

Thank you. :)

My Search-Fu is weak, and I'm hoping someone could give me the answer to this question, or perhaps link me to it...

Let's say I have a Sorcerer with the Crossblooded and Wildblooded archetypes. I select Pit-Touched bloodline and Abyssal bloodline at character creation. I then pickup the Eldritch Heritage feat later on.

The feat description says: "This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have."

Does that mean I can't pick the Infernal bloodline, because I have the mutated version (Pit-Touched) of it already? Can I take Infernal in this example, or can I not take Infernal?

You don't need a feat. Just have Armor Piercing bullets. As GM you can control the ammunition availability or difficulty of crafting, so that it doesn't become a game breaker for you.

IRL, I don't need a new "feat" or better skills to punch through heavier protection. Sometimes I don't even need a new gun. Just switching ammo can do it.

True. But then, NPC's in the NPC Codex aren't supposed to be "every" single version of their example. Just one usable example.

How many PC's actually pay that much attention to every beggar walking the streets of a good sized city? If someone really RP'ed the heck out of such a character, I might reward them with such a find.

Plus it make a great story hook that could be used then or later down the campaign...

Maybe they should've burned the rest of his cash on masterwork begging tools? A jewel-studded golden panhandling cup.

Or maybe a valuable possession worth that much, but doesn't look like it, and the beggar just carries around on him in total ignorance. Others don't take it, because it's hidden and/or the general population is ignorant too (i.e. only an expert appraisalist would know).

For example: a bent, rust coated walking stick that has some rare metal smelted into it.

That's usually how it works, honestly. Homelessness can be very lucrative for some.

Yea. While certainly the ultra rare exceptions, there are stories of begging having a surprising yearly salary.

I think for raw mechanics, they listed the gp. That way no one would ask, "where's the rest of his WBL"?

By the same token, everyone in the NPC Codex is just a "suggestion" and not mandatory to use.

Lastly... there's just some interesting RP potential to explain why he'd even have that wealth. Any "random throw away" beggar, would naturally be broke and most GM's probably wouldn't even have generated stats.

Well, there's a lot of possibilities. Two of them randomly off my mind...

#1: He's made begging a successful profession.

#2: He's more than just a mere begger. He has a disguise kit after all.

I don't if this suggestion would help you, but...

When the players are designing their 1st level character, I also ask them to the give me a sheet that shows what they'd like that character to look like all pimped out at 20th level. Said 20th level proposal is not set in stone for either of us: it's just a really great outline of expectation.

It gives me an idea of what rules and splat books I'll need to tag for campaign reference, tailor the stories and encounters to best flow with the player's intentions, what loot would be worthless or valuable, etc. More importantly, it gives me an opportunity to discuss with the player my concerns for being too min/max'ed or being too underpowered before the campaign starts. We can talk about problems I'd have with a PC going that route... they can help alleviate my concerns and make assurances to avoid future problems.

However on that same note, the players have my full assurance that I won't abuse knowledge of the PC's desired build (crafting enemies to specifically defeat them/be invincibile) or they can't change their mind/make alterations during the campaign. Though huge changes might have me ask if they could update the original sheet.

Yes, well, they would be two new iconics... unless one of them is a narcissist summoner and the other is her eidolon.

No! Twins count as one! What would be the point of twins if it wasn't twins!?

TWIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIINS!!!

Weren't they the final opponents in the Ruby Tournament?

Were they now? Hmmmm... thanks for the info. Gotta get me a book then!

Couldn't find images of either...

The glorious twins are on page 176 of Ultimate Campaign.

Now say it again with me: "Twins!!"

I vote for the twin spellcasting sisters that were in Ultimate Campaign.

Say it with me: "Twins!!"

Don't breathe air and drink water either. You might be murdering an elemental.

Since being asleep is not the same as being unconscious, he should wake up still raging.

lol... he must be having some angry dreams.

Question though. He's still using his rage rounds while asleep though, right?

But how many beans did that calf murder to get large enough to feed the village?

I was curious, so I Googled up some info...

Supposedly a cow eats between 70 to 120 pounds of plant material per day. Depends on how big the cow is and what the plants are. So let's just use the average of 95 pounds of beans per day.

I then read that beef cattle are kept alive anywhere between 1 to 10 years before slaughter. Depends on the sex and/or how long the owning farmer wants to breed for more moo-moo's. So 5 years a good target?

365 * 5 * 95 pounds = 173375 pounds... that's 86.6875 TONS of beans... or 78641 kilograms for the non-Americans out there.

Instead of playing Schrodinger's wizard, why don't you post your wizard's character sheet, including memorized spells. Standard wealth by level.

Why not just let you create a Wizard of your own, and assuming you use good faith that you're not gimping the Wizard to purposely lose to the Warrior?

Or just grab one of the dozens of "kills everything before the dice rolls" min/max Wizard builds that are scattered on the Internetz?

Besides, the ability to respond to your environment is 1 of the 5 classic requirements to be declared living (even if only on a cellular level).

I don't think anyone is questioning if a normal plant can be aware of the environment (in the sense of finding sunlight and rooting for water)... it's more leaning of questioning if a normal plant can possess comprehension.

Even with a spell like Awakening, the plant should have memories and personality starting at the point the spell was completed. So even if a plant was there for years, it shouldn't remember anything of those years... it was just a regular plant. It's earliest memories should begin from the moment of gained sentience.

Of course, all this moot, because... well... magic...

So Speak With Plants isn't the plant talking: it's the magic talking.

At level 20 who wins the initiative wins independent of the class.

Wait. We're not seriously considering that a Warrior 20 could defeat a Wizard 20, right? I mean, yea sure, it's possible. But that Warrior is hoping for his "natural 20" roll and the wizard getting a "natural 1" roll. Plus why is the Wizard 20 even in the same area as the Warrior 20? Wizard doesn't even have to be on the same Plane. A Wizard needing to roll his Initiative for a battle like that, is doing it wrong.

Spell DCs in PF out strip saving throws although it is not as bad as 3.0.

Heightened Persistent <Insert Save or Die Spell of Choice>.

That is all.

The Question Asked: How far could spellcasters be nerfed before they became unplayable?

The Official Answer: Until they become Fighters.

***EDIT***
Level 20 Adept versus level 20 Fighter? Adept could win.

Level 20 Warrior versus level 20 Wizard? Bwa, ha, ha, ha!!!

That's how bad it is.

It's possible for magic to have a system that it obeys. Granted magic tends to rip apart the "real world", but there's costs and limitations to what a "unit of magic" can do.

Be it that magic emanates from a shattered gateway into the Realms of Chaos, there's a need for Equivalent Exchange, a massive Mammon Machine generates mana, the need to concentrate power with incantations and icons, etc...

Hey... wait a minute. If I cast Awakening on rotting dead wood... does that mean I've committed plant necromancy!?

***EDIT***
If plants are sentient, then it gives "Baby Bean Sprouts" new meaning. You monsters...

I plan to interrogate them with Thousand Island!

Many scientists have begun questioning this very perception, that plants do not feel pain.

Not an attack against you, but I hate that phrase. What's many scientists? Two? Ten? Fifty? Many scientists believe Bigfoot is real, and there's a lot of books on the subject, but that does not mean Bigfoot is real.

On the topic though: Plants respond to electricity, but they do NOT have a central nervous system and they do NOT have delta fibers. Therefore plants do NOT feel pain. IMHO, Chamovitz offers fun conjecture, but there's a mountain of evidence against him.

It's probably easier proving Bigfoot is real.

Agreed. I'm eating sentient bacon then.

Thank goodness this dilemma doesn't exist in the real world!

Have you tried Exalted?

I have. There was also Scion for a "modern world" version. 7th Sea also made being a meleer pretty slick (the original AEG system... NOT the d20 remake).

Both Scion and 7th Sea died slow painful market deaths.

Didn't know Exalted was getting a new lease on life. Glad to hear and will definately support it. Hope it survives this time.

What if... you cast awaken on the pig. Is it murder then?

Step 1: Wait for duration to end or dispel the spell.

Step 2: Eat bacon.

On a philosophical note, I'd say it was the "spell" that was sentient... not the pig.

Isn't the whole thing rooted in suffering and intelligence? A pig feels pain and has intelligence (limited as that might be).

A real world plant does not feel pain and does not have intelligence. If a fantasy world plant can feel pain and/or has intelligence, then we could reasonably start to apply the concept of "plant rights" for them.

Most criminal courts don't equate animal life equal to human life, because a human is considered vastly more significant than an animal. It's basically a bias for human supremacy and that we're more special than other forms of life. If or when we discover aliens, we may or may not make adjustments on that prejudice.

P.S. I love bacon. You will only get me to stop eating bacon when I'm dead.

Yes, some fighter options should be entirely mundane for those who want fighters that way. But Supernatural Fighters aren't badwrongfun.

Thing is, supposedly we already have a mundane fighter: we call it the Warrior NPC.

Traditionalists fight for the status quo of keeping the meleers down. You don't have to tear down the spellcasters, if you can raise up the fighter. But they want meleers to be weak, because a mere swordsman can NEVER be the equal of a wizard.

Animesque meleers? Sure, it's not realistic. Neither is a game full of city sized dungeons and nation destroying dragons. We've seen awesome fantasy settings with fighters doing the fireball cutting and teleport fast movement. It didn't kill fantasy. For some of us, it made it better. Just saying it's not Paizo is a weak argument too. It wasn't Paizo for Charisma based divine casters or pistol carrying gunslingers... until they made such classes.

Yeah... go play another system that does it... I've obviously proven that I have. I'm just of the mind it would work for Paizo too.

There may well be games in Japan that constrain certain characters to something like the laws of physics as we understand them. I don't know, I don't game in Japan.

They exist. Not the most popular, but I've played 'em.

Why you keep trying to claim this is some sort of cultural clash is beyond me, unless that's just one of your pet agenda items to push.

I blame myself for using the wrong words, or directing it from the wrong angle. Maybe it's something I need more time to phrase better.

There is a reason why American RPG's (book or console) fail to gain much traction in Japan, despite the efforts to get them to take hold. D&D succeeded because it was so novel, awesome, and the first. It's one of the grandfathers of Japanese RPG'ing (along with Wizardry). But many -- and I mean MANY -- attempts to bring various Western RPG's to Japan have failed, because of the mechanics and presentation. The Japanese "rendition" of Cyberpunk is Tokyo NOVA more or less, with MAJOR adjustments for a Japanese market. Battletech was a complete failure all around, and FASA tried some major marketing back in the heyday. It didn't present "mecha" like the Japanese thought mecha should have been presented... later another company made their own spin of it, and that did great (forget the name of it though). Off the top of my head, only GRUPS became a success, largely due to how flexible the system is. The newer versions of D&D still get published in Japan, but it's mostly due to WotC having so much $$$ to do it (MtG is big in Japan)... but not the raw sales of D&D.

I'm just saying there is a different mindset to things. It's not just RPG's. For example The SIMS is considered a colossal failure in Japan and Korea (despite being a massive success in Europe and South America), and the common Japanese or Korean review has said the character models were ugly. So EA made tailored MySIMS for the Japanese/Korean market... which ironically failed for other various reasons, but found some success in the West. In Japan, the king of MMO's was Ragnarok Online for the longest time (and popular anime like Sword Arts Online reflect that): WoW would never succeed in Japan for a laundry list of reasons, and no effort has been made because of them. It's probably an argument best made over a cup of coffee face-to-face in a café, than on an Internet forum, but it's not an agenda I'm trying to push. Things that you can market in the US, won't ever market in Japan... and vice versa. It's something along those lines.

EDIT: Accidently mentioned Shadowrun and meant Cyberpunk. Edited that part. Shadowrun never made it to Japan. It was years ago, and I was thinking about FASA at the same time, so don't hold it too hard against me. :)

Huh, I've never seen any of those books for sale at the local stores, nor in the hands of any of my friends. I have a ridiculously hard time convincing people to play something other than DnD, or even try it. That's always been a major part of the issue for me.

Sadly, Japanese book RPG's haven't had an easy time getting translated into English. However that might change in the future. Tenra Bansho Zero is now available.

This is not an Eastern vs Western fantasy bias. It's a mundane vs supernatural bias. Period. Attempting to claim that this is some sort of cultural bigotry is just silly. Pathfinder has incorporated Eastern and other cultural mythology into the game.

Having a faux-Japan in a Western RPG is not making an Eastern RPG... just as having faux-Europe in an Eastern RPG is not making a Western RPG.

The bias I am taking about, is what an Eastern RPG is willing to consider the realm of "pure magic" and what it is willing to consider the realm of "superhuman" but not magical. Not that Paizo has a version of Japan and China in their setting.

Western RPG's already have a ton of things that a fighter can do, that are considered magical in the real world. The Eastern RPG's just go farther with it... because their literature tells of warriors (and again these are FANTASY settings; not realistic depictions of reality) doing more than what LotR or Conan says they can do.

It's cultural from that end. A Japanese gamer complains that a D&D fighter is too weak for a fantasy warrior... just how a Western game complains that an Alshard fighter is too powerful. Because the strengths and limitations of both are different in what they expect.

When a "fighter" can "slice" the air and release waves of force when swinging their swords that can cut a fireball in half, they are no longer "mundane" martials. That is essentially making the "fighter" a magical creature.

I disagree. It's a bias of Western fantasy.

In Western fantasy, a warrior is limited to what a real human (albeit at Olympic performance) can do -- never mind the setting is not constrained by real world physics. There is a limit to his strength. There is a limit to his endurance. There is a limit to what a steel sword can do. Only wizards can weave and pull on the threads of Reality. Magic is the ONLY means to defy physics.

In Eastern fantasy, a warrior is only limited by his willpower and training. A warrior can train to cleave through a mountain. A warrior can learn to reflect lightning off his sword. Magic is just another tool to achieve the same effects. In Eastern fantasy, there isn't a limit to what a "mere human body" can achieve... because the setting is not constrained by real world physics.

I don't consider that to be remotely a valid reason to do it as it has been done.

The 15th level fighter hits things, just like he did when he was level one, though a bit harder. The 15th level wizard has learned to rip reality a new one since level one and summon in demonic overlords and archons.

I'm in agreement. However we're fighting an uphill battle on that front.

Western RPG's draws a lot from great sagas like LotR, Greek/Roman mythology, and Conan. Warriors can beat wizards in these settings, but doing so is a herculean task... and most often the warrior does it after finding a chink in the wizard's spells or somehow out thinking him: not in a direct head on confrontation.

Look at Conan for example. He's one of the greatest warriors -- if not THE greatest -- of his setting. Sure, he's taken out wizards, but he struggles against what D&D would consider a suboptimal 4th level build. Even a weak spellcaster in Conan is considered MAJOR bad news.

And it's things like that, which Western RPG'ers have ingrained themselves with.

You don't get this with Japanese book RPG's like Arianrhod and Alshard, because they see meleers quite differently. Don't get me wrong, D&D is popular in Japan (Record of Lodoss War was spawned from it), but the vast power of magic and the vast weakness of warriors was (and still is) a major point of contention. Sword World is seen as the Japanese version of D&D -- and it makes warriors more like the kinds we see in anime, than what we read in LotR.

To over generalize...

American Fantasy Mindset: A legendary superpowerful fighter can slay a dragon singlehandedly... but NOT in any d20 I've played in.

Japanese Fantasy Mindset: A legendary superpowerful fighter can slay an entire legion of dragons singlehandedly, while cleaving a mountain and emptying an entire lake of water with the same singular swing... and I've played one of those.

This is entirely on topic drift. The question being asked is really how to "balance" spellcasters against martial.

The only answer is to either get rid of magic, or make martials casters too.

In classical Western fantasy, the wizards are vastly more powerful than swordsmen. Wizards throw fireballs, can teleport, create force fields, etc. Fighters just swing their sword... they're lucky if that sword is magic.

In classical Asian fantasy, fighters can "slice" the air and release waves of force when swinging their swords. They can cut down a wizard's fireball in midair. They can move so fast, it's like they teleported behind you.

However when you see a melee class with such powers in a Western fantasy RPG, it upsets gamers for being too anime or trying too hard to make fighters like wizards.

IMHO: The foundations and expectations of what make Western fantasy what it is, are the reason why swordsmen (and other meleers) are crippled as they are.

I've seen this argument before... but for Pokemon.

Is that a salad they're eating, or is it really a Bellsprout? Was that steak from a Miltank? Is metal torn off the bodies of slain Steelix?

Creepy.

P.S. I would totally let someone make a +1 frost crowbar or whatever. How cool is that?

A +1 flame crowbar would be hotter, but not as electrifying as a +1 shocking crowbar.