|
If two groups are interacting non-violently, no spells going off etc., then combat hasn't started. So, no initiative.
If one person decides to initiate hostilities, he rolls a Bluff check and everyone else makes a Sense Motive check; The Bluffer (no matter what he rolls) and anyone else whose Sense Motive equals or exceeds the Bluff total, gets to act in the surprise round in initiative order. This may result in someone acting before the aggressor, realising what he's about to do.
After the surprise round, combat continues normally.
Until you've had your first turn, you're flat-footed; even the aggressor if someone beats his Bluff AND his initiative! Even then, since (because it's a surprise round) you get EITHER a move OR a standard (and no full-round action), going before the aggressor is no guarantee that you can actually do anything to stop him doing what he is going to do.
You can't talk (or take any other action) after readying an action without losing your readied action.
Kinda' puts a wrinkle in most of those talking stand-off scenarios (though I suppose they could talk a bit THEN ready their action).
|
You can't talk (or take any other action) after readying an action without losing your readied action.
Kinda' puts a wrinkle in most of those talking stand-off scenarios (though I suppose they could talk a bit THEN ready their action).
Why? Talking is a free action that you can take when it isn't your turn.
Maybe you can't use the diplomacy skill and surely you can't use the intimidate skill while keeping an action ready, but talking is ok.
Why?
Talking is an action. If you take any action that is not your readied action, then you lose your readied action.
"Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your
Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed."Situation: while GMing I like to create situations where the PCs and the enemies can talk before battle ensues. Both sides expect a fight to break out at any moment.
I was playing it that when a fight then begins, characters are flat-footed before they have acted.
My players seemed to think this shouldn't apply - both sides are fully aware of the other side and on their guard. Is there any basis for this belief in rules or table tradition?
The rules for being surprised read like they only apply to unaware combatants, ones who don't know the other guys is around and that stuff is about to go down.
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.
Determining Awareness
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
The Surprise Round
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants
Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
|
|
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
'Awareness' in this case isn't the awareness of the presence of enemies, but the awareness of hostile action.
So, usually Perception versus Stealth is used to determine awareness, but in the situation described in the OP Sense Motive versus Bluff is used to determine awareness of hostile action.
So, usually Perception versus Stealth is used to determine awareness, but in the situation described in the OP Sense Motive versus Bluff is used to determine awareness of hostile action.
Besides for the most part you can't use Sense Motive in that way. First, the Sense motive rules don't say anything about learning hostile intent. It isn't a wholely unreasonable idea, but it isn't in there.
(Wis)
You are skilled at detecting falsehoods and true intentions.Check: A successful check lets you avoid being bluffed (see the Bluff skill). You can also use this skill to determine when “something is up” (that is, something odd is going on) or to assess someone's trustworthiness.
Task Sense Motive DC
Hunch 20
Sense enchantment 25 or 15
Discern secret message VariesHunch: This use of the skill involves making a gut assessment of the social situation. You can get the feeling from another's behavior that something is wrong, such as when you're talking to an impostor. Alternatively, you can get the feeling that someone is trustworthy.
Sense Enchantment: You can tell that someone's behavior is being influenced by an enchantment effect even if that person isn't aware of it. The usual DC is 25, but if the target is dominated (see dominate person), the DC is only 15 because of the limited range of the target's activities.
Discern Secret Message: You may use Sense Motive to detect that a hidden message is being transmitted via the Bluff skill. In this case, your Sense Motive check is opposed by the Bluff check of the character transmitting the message. For each piece of information relating to the message that you are missing, you take a –2 penalty on your Sense Motive check. If you succeed by 4 or less, you know that something hidden is being communicated, but you can't learn anything specific about its content. If you beat the DC by 5 or more, you intercept and understand the message. If you fail by 4 or less, you don't detect any hidden communication. If you fail by 5 or more, you might infer false information.
Action: Trying to gain information with Sense Motive generally takes at least 1 minute, and you could spend a whole evening trying to get a sense of the people around you.
Try Again: No, though you may make a Sense Motive check for each Bluff check made against you.
Special: A ranger gains a bonus on Sense Motive checks when using this skill against a favored enemy.
If you have the Alertness feat, you get a bonus on Sense Motive checks (see Feats).
Second, RAW and RAI (I think) you wouldn't be able to use it this way most times even if you think it falls under the Hunch use, because you didn't get a full minute to just talk with them. So for the most part Sense Motive is out. For the most you'll get down to fighting before that time limit. Maybe it would be better roleplay if you didn't, but most times somebody will just get sick of it an attack.
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.'Awareness' in this case isn't the awareness of the presence of enemies, but the awareness of hostile action.
Not what the OP said, They all pretty much know it is about to go down.
Situation: while GMing I like to create situations where the PCs and the enemies can talk before battle ensues. Both sides expect a fight to break out at any moment.
So like the rules read it MAY call for a check. Or it may be a situation where everyone knows what is up and you just get to normal rounds without. Otherwise,it would just read 'call for a check.'
If when everyone on both sides of a battle has hostile intent and expects it to be a fight and is aware of everyone on both sides being there isn't a time that doesn't require a roll to be aware of enemies (as enemies) what is?
I too think this rule is rather silly. For a home game I would run it like your players are asking, but I wouldn't expect that another GM must.
For PFS I just accept that the rules are the rules.....mostly. I have never seen anyone actually allow someone to be sneak attacked by a high initiative rogue on both the surprise and first normal round when they too were able to act in the surprise round, but that is what the rules call for. It would lead to even more awkwardness. "Damn you Phil, if you weren't here, then that rogue would not have gotten to sneak attack me twice!"
|
With this.. Tell your player you are going to punch them. Then do it right then. Ask them if they were flatfooted.
The reason a person is flatfooted, despite being 'ready' for combat is because they are still waiting for that 'trigger'
Lets take "Han shot first" with Greedo and Han. Han wasn't flat footed, he took first action, using a slight of hand check and greedo's perception wasn't aware of it. Surprise round, despite Greedo being quite aware of Han being there.
Greedo shoots first. Han wasn't flat footed cause of Uncanny Dodge. Greedo did win initiative, and if Han wasn't the best friggin rogue out there, he would have had a new face hole. then han shot.
During another scene in the Bar, Obiwan wins initiative in combat despite the alien thugs being quite aware of Luke. Probally another surprise round.
A bunch of runners line up at the starting line. A gun goes off. None of them immediately move at the sound of the gun. They roll for initiative, some rolling really poorly.
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a
chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in
the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your
Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed.
Even if you act in the surprise round, you have still not taken your first regular turn, according to the letter of the law, you are still flat footed. To further verify that the surprise round is not a normal round, you can find a few lines down the text:
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin.
I admit it doesn't sit well with me logically.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It doesn't say your first round, it says your first regular turn, which I assume means when you go, not when you take AoO (Combat Reflexes).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a
chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in
the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your
Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed.Even if you act in the surprise round, you have still not taken your first regular turn, according to the letter of the law, you are still flat footed. To further verify that the surprise round is not a normal round, you can find a few lines down the text:
If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin.
I admit it doesn't sit well with me logically.
The Flat-Footed description, when mentioning "before you have a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order)..." is not referring to the surprise round; it's referring to other actions that you might be able to take before your first actual turn in the initiative order.
For example, there are spells you can cast as an immediate action, and if you have Combat Reflexes, you can take AoOs even while flat-footed; doing so, however, doesn't remove your flat-footed condition, even though you've technically 'acted' in the round now.
The Surprise round description follows the description of the flat-footed combat condition, and includes language that makes it clear that if you act in the surprise round, you are not flat-footed any longer:
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin.
In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
The inclusion of this language would be unnecessary if the surprise round left all combatants (even ones who act during the surprise round) flat-footed.
I agree that way makes more sense, it may even be the intent of the author, but the repeated use of the words "normal round" doesn't support that point.
The whole surprise round mechanic isn't perfect no matter which way you side on this specific issue. Lets read it the we way we think it makes the most sense for this argument.
Suppose a rogue runs from around an L shaped corner to stab someone who makes the perception check. If a person over on the other side of the room from the action is surprised, the rogue moves on the surprise round and does not get to catch his opponent flat footed with an attack. If there isn't an extra person who failed the perception check to trigger the surprise round, the rogue can move and attack on the first round, getting his target flat-footed.
In a home game I think it best to leave up to the GM, "What makes the most sense in this circumstance?"
But there aren't "repeated use[]s of the words "normal round"". Here's the entirety of the PRD text on
Each round represents 6 seconds in the game world; there are 10 rounds in a minute of combat. A round normally allows each character involved in a combat situation to act.
Each round's activity begins with the character with the highest initiative result and then proceeds in order. When a character's turn comes up in the initiative sequence, that character performs his entire round's worth of actions. (For exceptions, see Attacks of Opportunity and Special Initiative Actions.)
When the rules refer to a “full round”, they usually mean a span of time from a particular initiative count in one round to the same initiative count in the next round. Effects that last a certain number of rounds end just before the same initiative count that they began on.
Initiative
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll, as well as other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects. Characters act in order, counting down from the highest result to the lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).
If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll to determine which one of them goes before the other.
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can't use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues of high enough level have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which means that they cannot be caught flat-footed. Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat. A flat-footed character can't make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat.
Inaction: Even if you can't take actions, you retain your initiative score for the duration of the encounter.
Surprise
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you're surprised.
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.
Determining awareness may call for Perception checks or other checks.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.
The phrase "normal round" doesn't appear anywhere in the text. I'll assume that you're talking about "regular round", but that appears in exactly one place in the entire section.
The way that you are reading it is one of two apparent possible interpretations,, but only one of them is logical and supported by the context of the passage and rules located elsewhere in the book:
1. "...specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order..." could mean that even if you act in the surprise round, you become flat-footed again after the surprise round until you reach your first turn in the 'normal' initiative order. Given the definition of flat-footed and the mechanics of it in other places in the book, this makes no logical sense; the fact they felt it necessary to include the latter text regarding unaware combatants also makes this an unlikely reading of RAW.
2. "...specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order..." could refer to actions that can be taken before your normal action, such as attacks of opportunity or immediate actions granted by spells or class features. This does not violate the logic of what 'flat-footed' means and is not contradicted by the context of the passage.
In this case you're right that RAW can be read to have the first interpretation - but it also can be read to have the second, and only the second one makes sense and avoids violating other rules.
Suppose a rogue runs from around an L shaped corner to stab someone who makes the perception check. If a person over on the other side of the room from the action is surprised, the rogue moves on the surprise round and does not get to catch his opponent flat footed with an attack. If there isn't an extra person who failed the perception check to trigger the surprise round, the rogue can move and attack on the first round, getting his target flat-footed.
The Rogue doesn't get to catch the first guy flat-footed no matter what. Let's take Rogue, Mook A, and Mook B.
Rogue moves around a corner, surprising Mook A and B, but only A makes his Perception check. Initiative gets rolled; regardless of the order, assuming that the Rogue is outside of a five-foot step from either Mook, the most he can do is move up to him during the surprise round. Mook A will act during the surprise round, and so once the normal initiative rounds begin, Mook A will no longer be flat-footed.
The Rogue could instead move to Mook B; assuming that he beats Mook B's initiative roll, and Mook B didn't act during the surprise round, then the Rogue can use his surprise round action to move to Mook B, and then on his first regular round can do a full-attack action - and get sneak attack damage on all of it, because Mook B is flat-footed.
Now let's take Mook B out of the picture.
Rogue comes around the corner; he surprises Mook A, but Mook A successfully makes his Perception check. Both Rogue and Mook A get to act in the surprise round. The Rogue can move up to Mook A, but won't be able to attack since he only gets the one action during the surprise round.
Mook A can attack the Rogue, but since the Rogue's already acted, the Rogue has his DEX.
Then we go into the regular initiative order - and Mook A still has his DEX because he's already acted, leaving the Rogue out of luck for a flat-footed strike.
So in either scenario, assuming that the Rogue has to move more than a five-foot step to get to Mook A, he's gaining no advantage versus Mook A.
Now, modify the first scenario a bit: Mook B has Combat Reflexes. The Rogue heads toward Mook A, but as he does so he exits a square threatened by the flat-footed Mook B.
Mook B gets an AoO because of Combat Reflexes; however Mook B still flat-footed, because of the "...specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order..." clause in the rules. Probably a bad idea for Mook B, because at that point if I were playing the Rogue I would turn my sights on him, and (assuming the Rogue beat him in initiative) I'd go turbo-sneak attack ginsu on him in my first regular action.
|
|
Wow. I never knew Combat reflexes allowed you to threaten spaces when flat footed.
Though I just wondered something.. You suddenly slip and fall off a cliff. Are you flat footed? What if you were pushed off that same cliff?
If you are not in combat (initiative has not been rolled) then you are not flat-footed.
You are only flat-footed from when initiative is rolled until your first turn in the initiative order (whether that is in the surprise round or not). Outside combat you are not flat-footed.
|
|
So, if someone pushed you off cliff as a surpise round. .. even if you have feather fall, as long as your Flat footed, you're done for
According to the RAW, yes.
But if you're waling along outside of combat and step on a pit trap, you could use an immediate action to cast feather fall then.
The casting time for feather fall has been a problem since 3.0, where it was defined as a free action (swift and immediate actions hadn't been invented yet). When it was pointed out that you can only take free actions on your own turn, that rendered the spell unusable in most instances of falling.
When swift/immediate actions were invented, the spell became a swift action to cast. This still only worked on your own turn. Then they changed it to immediate, and now you can't use it before your first turn if you need it in combat, or if you already used your immediate action for this turn.
The solution is simple: make the casting time 'special', and have it useable any time you are falling and are conscious, as a reaction to falling. Have it also usable on others as an immediate action.
EDIT: For more fun, there are those that (mis)read the falling rules to say that you can't cast it when falling(!) unless you fall at least 500-feet. : )
Have you ever been at a red light waiting for it to turn green? This is you, actively awaiting something that you KNOW will happen very soon, but you don't know exactly when. Do you ALWAYS start driving the EXACT INSTANT that the light changes? Have you ever taken half a second--maybe even 2 or 3 seconds--to register that the light changed before moving through the intersection? Perhaps you are especially on edge? Maybe you are sneaking forward, watching the other light and waiting to see when it turns red so you know the green light is close. You start cheating forward, but you still can't commit until the light turns. Maybe you've just reapplied the brake when it does turn green, and--despite your efforts--still lose a half-second.
Welcome to initiative rolls in real life.
But, using this example, how much sense would it make that someone who can turn the light green himself will be the last to start driving?
As in the one starting combat by turning the talk into a fight to go last.
While this telegraphing movements if something that can happen it's normally not so bad that 5-10 people can make their attack before the one starting the fight does. That's silly. But at the table it happens very often.
|
|
Have you ever been at a red light waiting for it to turn green? This is you, actively awaiting something that you KNOW will happen very soon, but you don't know exactly when. Do you ALWAYS start driving the EXACT INSTANT that the light changes? Have you ever taken half a second--maybe even 2 or 3 seconds--to register that the light changed before moving through the intersection? Perhaps you are especially on edge? Maybe you are sneaking forward, watching the other light and waiting to see when it turns red so you know the green light is close. You start cheating forward, but you still can't commit until the light turns. Maybe you've just reapplied the brake when it does turn green, and--despite your efforts--still lose a half-second.
Welcome to initiative rolls in real life.
But, using this example, how much sense would it make that someone who can turn the light green himself will be the last to start driving?
As in the one starting combat by turning the talk into a fight to go last.
While this telegraphing movements if something that can happen it's normally not so bad that 5-10 people can make their attack before the one starting the fight does. That's silly. But at the table it happens very often.
He's going for his gun! You were faster!
You can't talk (or take any other action) after readying an action without losing your readied action.
Kinda' puts a wrinkle in most of those talking stand-off scenarios (though I suppose they could talk a bit THEN ready their action).
No, actually, it beautifully simulates those cinematic moments. Bad guy had gun to the head of prisoner, good guy has gun trained on bad guy. What happens?
It depends on who rolls what when the talking stops.
Bad guy wins initiative, prisoner loses his head.
Good guy wins initiative, bad guy loses his head.
Prisoner wins initiative, maybe gets away.
Roll initiative when combat starts, not before. And THIS is why people are flat-footed even when aware. They don't know the precise moment that things are going to go South.
Also, I'd like to point out that the rules support this. If the only time flat-footed applied was in combats that involve surprise-rounds, it'd say that. Instead you're flat-footed in any combat that you haven't yet acted in, even if there's no surprise round.
He's going for his gun! You were faster!
Welcome to initiative rolls in real life.As in the one starting combat by turning the talk into a fight to go last.
While this telegraphing movements if something that can happen it's normally not so bad that 5-10 people can make their attack before the one starting the fight does
He mean he's going for his gund and 5-10 people are faster. When handling it as a surprise round I might be ok with that. But just rolling iniative when one suddenly starts combat doesn't feel right.
|
|
But there aren't "repeated use[]s of the words "normal round"". Here's the entirety of the PRD text on
** spoiler omitted **...
Xaratherus, if no one fail the perception check there isn't a surprise round and the first round of combat is a full round, so if no one is surprised and the rogue win initiative, he can move his base speed and make 1 attack or move 5' and make a full attack.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard or move action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.
|
|
He mean he's going for his gund and 5-10 people are faster. When handling it as a surprise round I might be ok with that. But just rolling iniative when one suddenly starts combat doesn't feel right.He's going for his gun! You were faster!
Welcome to initiative rolls in real life.As in the one starting combat by turning the talk into a fight to go last.
While this telegraphing movements if something that can happen it's normally not so bad that 5-10 people can make their attack before the one starting the fight does
There is a surprise round, and the aggressor and anyone whose Sense Motive roll equals or exceeds the aggressors Bluff roll gets to act in that surprise round. If no-one rolls well enough, then only the aggressor acts in the surprise round. If every single combatant's Sense Motive beats the Bluff check, only then is there no surprise round.
For 5-10 people to be faster, then 5-10 people would have rolled better on their Sense Motive than the aggressor rolled on his Bluff, AND those 5-10 people rolled higher initiatives than the aggressor.
If that happened, then he went for his gun really slowly, and the laws of Darwinian evolution kicked in.
Talking is not combat.
Per RAW you roll for initiative once combat has been initiated.
I do like some of the ideas here for giving an init modifier to the party that decides to break the parley and attack. I think I would give a circumstance bonus of +4 to the attacker.
But no initiative for talking. It ruins the flow of the story. Do you roll initiative for every conversation? If not - then whenever you call for an initiative roll the players will immediately know something is amiss.
There is a surprise round, and the aggressor and anyone whose Sense Motive roll equals or exceeds the aggressors Bluff roll gets to act in that surprise round. If no-one rolls well enough, then only the aggressor acts in the surprise round. If every single combatant's Sense Motive beats the Bluff check, only then is there no surprise round.For 5-10 people to be faster, then 5-10 people would have rolled better on their Sense Motive than the aggressor rolled on his Bluff, AND those 5-10 people rolled higher initiatives than the aggressor.
If I just decide to hit the next guy, not by being seaky but by being fast and brutal, why is it my bluff roll they have to beat? I don't try to bluff them, I just try to strike cold and fast. Like when something might surprise the players often it is a perception roll, not sense motive.
And I've seen it happen more often than not, that it was just:
Player1: I charge the guy wielding the grataxe.
All other players start yelling that they attack, too.
GM: OK everyone roll initiative. (No surprise roll)
Everyone rolls, Player 1 goes (nearly) last and can't charge anymore because all his "friends" got in his way.
|
|
There is a surprise round, and the aggressor and anyone whose Sense Motive roll equals or exceeds the aggressors Bluff roll gets to act in that surprise round. If no-one rolls well enough, then only the aggressor acts in the surprise round. If every single combatant's Sense Motive beats the Bluff check, only then is there no surprise round.For 5-10 people to be faster, then 5-10 people would have rolled better on their Sense Motive than the aggressor rolled on his Bluff, AND those 5-10 people rolled higher initiatives than the aggressor.
If I just decide to hit the next guy, not by being seaky but by being fast and brutal, why is it my bluff roll they have to beat? I don't try to bluff them, I just try to strike cold and fast. Like when something might surprise the players often it is a perception roll, not sense motive.
And I've seen it happen more often than not, that it was just:
Player1: I charge the guy wielding the grataxe.
All other players start yelling that they attack, too.
GM: OK everyone roll initiative. (No surprise roll)
Everyone rolls, Player 1 goes (nearly) last and can't charge anymore because all his "friends" got in his way.
The initiative roll represents how fast your reactions are.
The other roll, whether it's based on Perception or Sense Motive or whatever, tells you that there is something to react to.
Which opposed skills are chosen for any particular circumstance is up to the DM. Because of the nature of adventuring, it's usually Perception versus Stealth, but that pair of skills is not the rule.
In 3rd ed, Perception was broken up into Spot, Listen and Search. Stealth was split into Hide and Move Silently. The DM had to choose which pair (Spot/Hide, Listen/Move Silently, Sense Motive/Bluff, or some other combination) was appropriate to that particular circumstance.
Although many skills have been conflated, this principle remains.
The only time you wouldn't roll a pair of skills to find out if there was going to be a surprise round and just, by fiat, decide to start the first (full) round of combat, is if everybody is aware that it's about to kick off as soon as I blow this whistle...or whatever. The start of a race or the start of an arm wrestle or the like, where the combatants know without doubt that 'combat' is about to start.
A tense conversation is not enough to avoid those skill rolls by fiat; they don't know for a fact that there will be combat, no matter their opinion of the likelihood.
@thejeff and Diego: Thank you for the correction. Was up too late posting when I typed that originally.
But there aren't "repeated use[]s of the words "normal round"". Here's the entirety of the PRD text on
** spoiler omitted **... The phrase "normal round" doesn't appear anywhere in the text. I'll assume that you're talking about "regular round", but that appears in exactly one place in the entire section.
Yes I did mean regular round. I was working from memory and misspoke slightly, but unless you are saying you can take a regular turn in something other than a regular round, the surprise round doesn't remove flat footed-ness by RAW.
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed.....
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin....
I would like to reiterate that most of the time this interpretation is silly, but occasionally it works better than the other.
@Sitri: I can see your point.
I think, however, that there are contradictions that indicate what the intended interpretation are.
Most specifically, the line regarding Uncanny Dodge: "Characters with uncanny dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat." 'First round of combat' would apply to either the character's first round (action) of a surprise round (if they were aware), or the first full round of the 'regular turn'.
Additionally, the clarification on unaware combatants ("Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don't get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.") would be wholly unnecessary if taking an action during the surprise round failed to remove the flat-footed condition.
When the GM calls for Initiative, the party goes into combat mode, actions happen in a precise sequence and your opponent in now your enemy. This is a horrible thing to happen to a tense discussion that is not yet combat. It makes it difficult to use Diplomacy, Intimidate, or Bluff to make those 1 minute actions that can drastically change the outcome of the encounter.
Diplomacy: Convince them to let you pass/become your new friend.
Intimidate: Make them run away from your awesomeness.
Bluff: Make them think you work for the same BBEG.
By calling Initiative, you limit RP potential.
Table 8-2 Actions in Combat
Ready (triggers a standard action)
Readying an action can only be done in combat, so you cannot do it while just talking.
Best way I saw to handle this was a combined Initiative roll with a check. That might be a sense motive to see the hostile intent, or a perception to see the hand placed on a weapon, or something else. Detecting the start of battle lets you go in a surprise round. This applies to your own party also. If they don't notice you start combat, they are surprised. Then Initiative takes over with its simulation of who reacts faster than others.
/cevah