Hey, guys! Look at what I found!
A ranged Alchemist build that I made before the crossbow build thread even existed!
Ranged: ... +2 Adaptive Composite longbow (Str +0) +17/+12 (1d8+6/19-20/x3)------
But hey! At least his DPR is actually lower than Ross':
Alchemist's DPR with Rapid Shot + Manyshot: 27.46
Ross' DPR using Heavy Crossbow + Acid Bolts + Rapid Shot + Deadly Aim: 34.7
Good job, Ross! You can out-DPR an unbuffed alchemist! Your GM must be so proud!
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Well, yes, thank you. That does prove that when you're not trying to prove how sucky a CB guy is, you build a archer who is outdone even by your sucky CB guy.
Well, yes, thank you. That does prove that when you're not trying to prove how sucky a CB guy is, you build a archer who is outdone even by your sucky CB guy.
It certainly proves that Barry is no more optimized than any decent character...
I'm still not seeing how that proves that Ross was "purposely under-optimized" (despite spending more gold on DPR than any other build, and just as many feats).
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Well, yes, thank you. That does prove that when you're not trying to prove how sucky a CB guy is, you build a archer who is outdone even by your sucky CB guy.It certainly proves that Barry is no more optimized than any decent character...
I'm still not seeing how that proves that Ross was "purposely under-optimized" (despite spending more gold on DPR than any other build, and just as many feats).
Well, Argumentum ad hominem is the traditional response for those who don't have any actual facts to back them up. Just look at the ratio of actual logical points supported by facts and numbers vs. the "Dodger dodger dodger!" shrieking.
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I have a suggestion: The game assumes crossbows are wooden, it goes hand in hand with the simple weapon assumption. Why not make a martial crossbow then?
Steel Crossbow, Light
2d8 100 19-20x2 P 6lbs
Steel Crossbow, Heavy
2d10 140 19-20x2 P 10lbs
A stronger version of their simple counterparts, steel crossbows are made entirely of metal; most commonly steel, hence the name. Due to this, the pull is stronger and the damage inflicted greater. To load a light steel crossbow you must have a strength of at least 12; to load a heavy steel crossbow you must have a strength of at least 14. The loading times are the same for their simple counterparts and any feats taken affect both types of crossbow.
I know it isn't much but it would help to even things out, even make crossbows more suited for those sniper shots with the vital strike chain. Normal rules, no added strength benefits or anything. It also gives them a more even curve for damage. It's also somewhat open for cheese with enlarging spells, if memory serves. It's been a while since I played and I've forgotten some things. Plus, steel crossbows irl existed and became more common for armies because they hit harder.
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gnome 20pt
STR-06 (adjust STR at expense of WIS to taste; could be 5/12 to 10/07)
DEX:17 (bump 4th)
CON+14
INT:12
WIS:10
CHA+16 (other bumps)
01 pala1 [Divine Hunter][Precise Shot], Quick Draw
02 bard1 [Dervish of the Dawn][Dervish Dance][Battle Dance+2], Arcane Strike [AS+1]
03 pala2 [Divine Grace], FEAT
...
07 bard5 (BAB:6), EWP:Repeating Heavy Crossbow
...
10 bard10 (Battle Dance+6, Arcane Strike+3)
...the idea here is two round's worth of Hasted d8+9+(every other buff plus magic) thrice, then twice, without buying one damned archery feat aside from the paladin-granted Precise Shot. The character is otherwise played like a typical bard/paladin DEX-based multiclass (who, in the case, does not suck in melee prior to Agile upgrades).
The crossbow's superior threat ranges complements the good numeric bonuses to damage. Watching the character pull a succession of giant darkwood crossbows out of his haversack, and tossing them up onto a hat-rack/helmet when they're spent (or he needs to melee, since he can't Dervish while holding another weapon), will be comical -- and getting the rest of the table to laugh is what it's all about.
Hey Lemmy.
Can you make an thrown improvised weapon build at level 5?
I can try, I've never tried a Thrown Weapon/Improvised Weapon in PF.
Nicos once shared a build that used Throw Anything to make ranged attacks with a harpoon. It's a pretty cool build. I'll link it here later.
Hey Lemmy.
Can you make an thrown improvised weapon build at level 5?
I can try, I've never tried a Thrown Weapon/Improvised Weapon in PF.
Nicos once shared a build that uses Two-Handed Thrower to make ranged attacks with a harpoon. It's a pretty cool build... And it reminds me of Scorpion, form Mortal Kombat. Heh.
Like I said, I would like to see level 5, not 10.
Level 10 is where every PC should be able to hold their own and typically is where any build should be nearing its peak efficiency.
On the Steel Crossbow it should be that the key components are made of Metal. But one thing that gets me is Crossbows were ceap & easy to Mass Produce IRL. Yet you can get a Shortbow for cheaper.
Oh yeah Pathfinder doesn't have Meteoric Iron Weapons do they...
Meteoric Iron was a Material that weighed the same as Iron but was immune to Rusting Effects, Almost as hard as Adamantine, & allowed the weapon to count as one size Larger without the penalties. Basically a Supped up Impact.
And basically all your suggesting from what I see is having them count aas if they were a size larger.
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Hey Lemmy.
Can you make an thrown improvised weapon build at level 5?
I can try, I've never tried a Thrown Weapon/Improvised Weapon in PF.
Nicos once shared a build that used Throw Anything to make ranged attacks with a harpoon. It's a pretty cool build. I'll link it here later.
I just want to see how effective a guy throwing tea cup and other junk is compared to an archer or crossbow man at level 5
I mean right now, as a barbarian, you can full round action to hurl a small object doing 2d6+Str+Power attack+Surpise weapons trait
So if he had 18 str after rage (Very small amount)
He would do 2d6+6+6+2 damage as a range touch attack. 2d6+14 damage? Pointblank shot gives another +1 damage
Of course, I'd suppose you'd need to get 2-handed thrower to get 1.5 str.
I just want to see how effective a guy throwing tea cup and other junk is compared to an archer or crossbow man at level 5
I mean right now, as a barbarian, you can full round action to hurl a small object doing 2d6+Str+Power attack+Surpise weapons trait
So if he had 18 str after rage (Very small amount)
He would do 2d6+6+6+2 damage as a range touch attack. 2d6+14 damage? Pointblank shot gives another +1 damage
Of course, I'd suppose you'd need to get 2-handed thrower to get 1.5 str.
Heh I did create a Barbarian...
I'm not sure how effective this guy is, but here it goes...
He carries a bunch of greatswords to use as ammo on his thrown attacks, but he can use object if it comes to that...
Male Human (Shoanti) Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager, Urban Barbarian) 5
CG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +9
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Defense
--------------------
AC 20, touch 15, flat-footed 16 (+5 armor, +4 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 48 (5d12+10)
Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +4
DR 2/—, 4/lethal; Resist extreme endurance (fire)
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Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Silversheen Greatsword +9 (2d6+5/19-20/x2) and
. . Greatsword +8 (2d6+4/19-20/x2) and
. . Greatsword +8 (2d6+4/19-20/x2) and
. . Greatsword +8 (2d6+4/19-20/x2) and
. . Greatsword +8 (2d6+4/19-20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +4) +8 (1d8+3/x3)
Special Attacks rage (13 rounds/day), rage powers (beast totem, lesser, hurling, lesser)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 16, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +5; CMB +8; CMD 23
Feats Quick Draw, Raging Hurler, Throw Anything, Two-Handed Thrower
Traits Auspicious Tattoo (Shoanti), Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +11, Climb +6, Escape Artist +3, Fly +3, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (local) +8, Linguistics +6, Perception +9, Ride +3, Stealth +3, Swim +6
Languages Common, Draconic, Shoanti, Sylvan, Undercommon
SQ controlled rage, controlled rage: constitution, controlled rage: dexterity, crowd control +2
Other Gear +1 Chain shirt, +1 Silversheen Greatsword, Greatsword, Greatsword, Greatsword, Greatsword, Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +4), Cloak of resistance +1, Ring of protection +1, 2700 GP
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Special Abilities
--------------------
Beast Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 d6 claw attacks while raging
Controlled Rage (Ex) May gain lesser bonus split as desired, but without normal drawbacks.
Crowd Control +2 (Ex) If 2+ foes adjacent, +1 to hit & AC. Unslowed by crowds & bonus to intimidate.
Damage Reduction (2/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Damage Reduction (4/lethal) You have Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage
Extreme Endurance (Fire) (Ex) At 3rd level, the invulnerable rager is inured to either hot or cold climate effects (choose one) as if using endure elements. In addition, the barbarian gains 1 point of fire or cold resistance for every three levels beyond 3rd. This ability
Hurling, Lesser (Ex) Throw large objects while raging.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Rage (13 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Raging Hurler Throw a two-handed weapon as a standard action
Throw Anything Proficient with improvised ranged weapons. +1 to hit with thrown splash weapons.
Two-Handed Thrower Gain Str bonus when using two hands to throw a one or two-handed weapon
Male Human (Shoanti) Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager, Urban Barbarian) 5
CG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +9
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Defense
--------------------
AC 18, touch 13, flat-footed 14 (+5 armor, +4 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 58 (5d12+20)
Fort +8, Ref +6, Will +6
DR 2/—, 4/lethal; Resist extreme endurance (fire)
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Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Silversheen Greatsword +11 (2d6+8/19-20/x2) and
. . Claw x2 (Beast Totem, Lesser) +5 x2 (1d6+2/x2) and
. . Greatsword +10 (2d6+7/19-20/x2) and
. . Greatsword +10 (2d6+7/19-20/x2) and
. . Greatsword +10 (2d6+7/19-20/x2) and
. . Greatsword +10 (2d6+7/19-20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +4) +10 (1d8+4/x3)
Special Attacks rage (13 rounds/day), rage powers (beast totem, lesser, hurling, lesser)
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Statistics
--------------------
Str 20, Dex 19, Con 16, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +5; CMB +10; CMD 23
Feats Quick Draw, Raging Hurler, Throw Anything, Two-Handed Thrower
Traits Auspicious Tattoo (Shoanti), Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +11, Climb +8, Escape Artist +3, Fly +3, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (local) +8, Linguistics +6, Perception +9, Ride +3, Stealth +3, Swim +8
Languages Common, Draconic, Shoanti, Sylvan, Undercommon
SQ controlled rage, controlled rage: constitution, controlled rage: dexterity, crowd control +2
Other Gear +1 Chain shirt, +1 Silversheen Greatsword, Greatsword, Greatsword, Greatsword, Greatsword, Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +4), Cloak of resistance +1, Ring of protection +1, 2700 GP
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Special Abilities
--------------------
Beast Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 d6 claw attacks while raging
Controlled Rage (Ex) May gain lesser bonus split as desired, but without normal drawbacks.
Crowd Control +2 (Ex) If 2+ foes adjacent, +1 to hit & AC. Unslowed by crowds & bonus to intimidate.
Damage Reduction (2/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Damage Reduction (4/lethal) You have Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage
Extreme Endurance (Fire) (Ex) At 3rd level, the invulnerable rager is inured to either hot or cold climate effects (choose one) as if using endure elements. In addition, the barbarian gains 1 point of fire or cold resistance for every three levels beyond 3rd. This ability
Hurling, Lesser (Ex) Throw large objects while raging.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Rage (13 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Raging Hurler Throw a two-handed weapon as a standard action
Throw Anything Proficient with improvised ranged weapons. +1 to hit with thrown splash weapons.
Two-Handed Thrower Gain Str bonus when using two hands to throw a one or two-handed weapon.
Male Human (Shoanti) Barbarian (Invulnerable Rager, Urban Barbarian) 5
CG Medium Humanoid (human)
Init +6; Senses Perception +9
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 15, flat-footed 16 (+5 armor, +4 Dex, +1 deflection)
hp 48 (5d12+10)
Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +4
DR 2/—, 4/lethal; Resist extreme endurance (fire)
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 Silversheen Greatsword +9 (2d6+5/19-20/x2) and
. . Greatsword +8 (2d6+4/19-20/x2) and
. . Greatsword +8 (2d6+4/19-20/x2) and
. . Greatsword +8 (2d6+4/19-20/x2) and
. . Greatsword +8 (2d6+4/19-20/x2)
Ranged Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +4) +8 (1d8+3/x3)
Special Attacks rage (13 rounds/day), rage powers (beast totem, lesser, hurling, lesser)
--------------------
Statistics
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Str 16, Dex 19, Con 12, Int 10, Wis 12, Cha 7
Base Atk +5; CMB +8; CMD 23
Feats Quick Draw, Raging Hurler, Throw Anything, Two-Handed Thrower
Traits Auspicious Tattoo (Shoanti), Reactionary
Skills Acrobatics +11, Climb +6, Escape Artist +3, Fly +3, Intimidate +6, Knowledge (local) +8, Linguistics +6, Perception +9, Ride +3, Stealth +3, Swim +6
Languages Common, Draconic, Shoanti, Sylvan, Undercommon
SQ controlled rage, controlled rage: constitution, controlled rage: dexterity, crowd control +2
Other Gear +1 Chain shirt, +1 Silversheen Greatsword, Greatsword, Greatsword, Greatsword, Greatsword, Masterwork Composite longbow (Str +4), Cloak of resistance +1, Ring of protection +1, 2700 GP
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Special Abilities
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Beast Totem, Lesser (Su) Gain 2 d6 claw attacks while raging
Controlled Rage (Ex) May gain lesser bonus split as desired, but without normal drawbacks.
Crowd Control +2 (Ex) If 2+ foes adjacent, +1 to hit & AC. Unslowed by crowds & bonus to intimidate.
Damage Reduction (2/-) You have Damage Reduction against all attacks.
Damage Reduction (4/lethal) You have Damage Reduction against non-lethal damage
Extreme Endurance (Fire) (Ex) At 3rd level, the invulnerable rager is inured to either hot or cold climate effects (choose one) as if using endure elements. In addition, the barbarian gains 1 point of fire or cold resistance for every three levels beyond 3rd. This ability
Hurling, Lesser (Ex) Throw large objects while raging.
Quick Draw Draw weapon as a free action (or move if hidden weapon). Throw at full rate of attacks.
Rage (13 rounds/day) (Ex) +4 Str, +4 Con, +2 to Will saves, -2 to AC when enraged.
Raging Hurler Throw a two-handed weapon as a standard action
Throw Anything Proficient with improvised ranged weapons. +1 to hit with thrown splash weapons.
Two-Handed Thrower Gain Str bonus when using two hands to throw a one or two-handed weapon
Hmmm... Now that I think about it... He doesn't really need Quick Draw yet, as he has no iterative attacks... -.-' I think I'll make another version of him, probably with PBS and/or Rapid Shot... (assuming RS works with Thrown Weapons)
I'd like to make him at 7th level, though, that's the finishing line for builds to be complete, IMO.
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Hey Lemmy.
Can you make an thrown improvised weapon build at level 5?
I can try, I've never tried a Thrown Weapon/Improvised Weapon in PF.
Nicos once shared a build that used Throw Anything to make ranged attacks with a harpoon. It's a pretty cool build. I'll link it here later.
No, it did not have trhow anything. it used hamatula strike to grapple at distance.
Trown weapons are bad, improvise weapons are bad, i do not see how trown improvised weapons build coudl work.
That is kinda the point there.
Dr is going on about how Archery and Crossbow are balanced, and wants builds at level 5, before Manyshot comes into play.
So if we compare Archery, Crossbow, and Improvised weapons together at level five..
Hey Lemmy.
Can you make an thrown improvised weapon build at level 5?
I can try, I've never tried a Thrown Weapon/Improvised Weapon in PF.
Nicos once shared a build that used Throw Anything to make ranged attacks with a harpoon. It's a pretty cool build. I'll link it here later.
No, it did not have trhow anything. it used hamatula strike to grapple at distance.
Trown weapons are bad, improvise weapons are bad, i do not see how trown improvised weapons build coudl work.
Thrown Weapons can be done using that Belt that can link to them so that the weapon will return after each resolved Attack Roll.
Thrown Improvised Weapons are best for Characters who will nearly always be in an area with lots of random junk.
@ArmouredMonk13: Okay, that kind of makes sense. Make it to where they count as one size larger. Make the basic Wooden Repeating Crossbow a Martial Weapon & make the Exotic RCBs be the Repeating Version of the Steel Crossbows.
@TOZ: Cestus are wonderful weapons.
@Nicos: Never been in a Tavern Brawl have ye?
@TOZ: Good Point... Also feel free to join my Upcoming Shattered Kingdoms Campaign. It should be up before to long. Mainly all I want is a Character Concept then the characters will be built later on.
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I think the only effective way to utilize Improvised Thrown Weapons would be a range focused Monk of the Empty Hand with appropriate feats. Working on a 10th level build via the previously proposed rules by Abrisene and a 5th level build with traits for DrDeth who seems so keen to see 5th level characters. Might add zen archer if they overlap. Posting it soon, so I'll know if they stack (to save posters the trouble of saying they don't if (or when) they don't).
That is kinda the point there.
Dr is going on about how Archery and Crossbow are balanced, and wants builds at level 5, before Manyshot comes into play.
So if we compare Archery, Crossbow, and Improvised weapons together at level five..
Balanced yes, equal, no. A LB is simply a better weapon that a CB, and the rules reflect this. I have said this many times. A TH Sword is better than a dagger, too
At various levels, the difference gets more pronounced. I picked level 5 as it is a nice medium level, where a lot of playtime gets done. Yes, it is before Manyshot. It's also before that feat that makes reload a CB a free action.
My point is that Lemmy biased his builds to show a CB is worse that it really is.
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OK, Here is a 5th level version of
Male Human Monk of the Empty Hand 5
LN medium Humanoid (human)
[b]Init+6, Perception+12
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Defense
-------------------
AC 20, Touch 20, Flat-Footed 14 (+4 Dex, +4 Wis, +2 dodge)
HP38(5d8+10)
Fort+5
Ref+8
Will+8
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Offense
-------------------
Speed 40 ft.
Melee
Unarmed Strike +6/+6 (1d8+1/1d8+1)
Ranged Throwing Rocks +8/+8 (1d6+2/1d6+2)
Special Attacks Ki Strike, Ki Weapons (1d8), Versatile Improvisation
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Statistics
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Str 13, Dex 18(14+2 Human+2 Belt), Con 12, Wis 18(15 +1 level +2 Headband), Cha 8, Int 10
Base Atk+3; CMB +7; CMD 18
Feats Stunning Fist, Throw Anything, Dodge, Point-Blank Shot, Combat Reflexes, Precise Shot, Quick Draw
Traits Reactionary; Bullied
Skills+12 Acrobatics; +12 Perception; +12 Sense Motive
Languages Common
Other Gear Monk's Kit; Handy Haversack; Belt of Incredible Dexterity +2; Headband of Inspired Wisdom +2; Monk's Outfit
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Special Abilities
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Flurry of Blows Like Two-Weapon Fighting with Unarmed Striks, Improvised Weapons, and Shurikens
Stunning Fist Chance to stun foes with unarmed strikes 3/day DC 15
Evasion Take no damage from a successful reflex save
Fast Movement +10 to Base Speed
Maneuver Training Use Monk levels in place of BAB for CMB
Versatile Improvisation Change the type of damage (S,P,or B) to another type)
Ki Pool Spend points toadd 20ft range increment to Shuriken/Improvised Thrown Weapons; increase Base Speed by 20 ft.; Gain +4 dodge bonus to AC; Make additional attacks in a Flurry of Blows; Make Ki Strikes and fists are magic.
Slow Fall Reduce falling distance by 20 ft when within reach of a wall
Quick Draw Draw weapons as a free action
Throw Anything No penalty on Improvised Thrown Weapons
Point-Blank Shot +1 attack and damage with ranged weapons
Precise Shot No penalties for shooting into melee
Ki Weapons Expend Ki points to make Improvised Weapons deal Unarmed Strike Damage.
Combat Reflexes Additional Attacks of Opportunities equal to Dex Modifier (4)
--------------------
This guy is completely focused on throwing rocks from 10 ft. away. The Damage that both do will be higher than this guy once I figure out the DPR math. (Not great with variables so it will be after I post the 10th level build). Using Lemmy's formula that he posted earlier.
My point is that Lemmy biased his builds to show a CB is worse that it really is.
And yet... It seems you're the only one in this thread who thinks I did such thing.
No other poster saw anything wrong with my choice of gear and attributes. I produced numbers and explanations for all of them, and anyone can check my builds, I even linked them here 3 times already.
So my point is... You're wrong, but don't want to admit it... So you desperately grasp at straws and accuse me of cheating...
Why not simply accept the fact that crossbows are terrible weapons in PF? We all know they are,
Hmmm... Now that I think about it... He doesn't really need Quick Draw yet, as he has no iterative attacks... -.-'Yeah, but do you want him to be weaponless when it's not his turn?
Good point... Why be unarmed when you carry 5 greatswords!
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DrDeth, you are wrong about Lemmy making Ross sub-optimal INTENTIONALLY. The Sub-optimization of Ross is due to Ross using a crossbow and is pretty much unpreventable, unless crossbows are made to be better. Now, I personally think that a crossbow is realistic as a weapon in PF, due to the fact that
1.)Simple weapon because it takes very little time to learn to use
2.)1d8-1d10 damage is more than longbow to try to give increased power to them (not a great solution but a solution).
3.)19-10/x2 due to the fact that they are easy to aim, but the bolt is less likely to stay in you because of the speed and penetration power of a bolt.
4.)Not a free action to reload because in real life it takes time to reload a crossbow and that is showed by practice. Cranking a Heavy Crossbow in 6 seconds is a remarkable feat of endurance IMO because have YOU tried to do this? doing this every 6 seconds would be incredibly tiring.
5.)No Str. to damage because it is basically point and click (should be the same with a bow due to the mechanics but isn't because bows are made superior just regardless).
So in general, the crossbow is as realistic as the possibility of a guy wielding 2 massive hammers (Thunder and Fang feat with earthbreakers) and having a chance of hitting things 7 times in 6 seconds.
For penetration, I propose composite crossbows that have a str. rating that allows 1/2 a point of damage extra if your str. mod is 1 higher than the rating and you can ignore 1/2 the rating in armor bonuses when you shoot. Or a feat with Crossbow Mastery where you get Dex to damage with a crossbow (take advantage of not needing a STR. to use a crossbow. What do you guys think about these? (Not the reasoning behind crossbow realism because people will disagree with me, but the ideas for fixing crossbows.)
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That is kinda the point there.
Dr is going on about how Archery and Crossbow are balanced, and wants builds at level 5, before Manyshot comes into play.
So if we compare Archery, Crossbow, and Improvised weapons together at level five..
Balanced yes, equal, no. A LB is simply a better weapon that a CB, and the rules reflect this. I have said this many times. A TH Sword is better than a dagger, too
At various levels, the difference gets more pronounced. I picked level 5 as it is a nice medium level, where a lot of playtime gets done. Yes, it is before Manyshot. It's also before that feat that makes reload a CB a free action.
My point is that Lemmy biased his builds to show a CB is worse that it really is.
A TH Sword is better than a dagger...
INCORRECT
A Two handed sword /isn't/ better than a dagger. Sure if you're looking for the absolute amount of omph you can throw into that, A TH sword will deal more damage. But a two handed sword, cannot be duel wielded. Cannot be thrown normally, cannot be used in grapples. Is a pretty heavy weapon, cannot be hidden on your body easily. It cannot be used to shave, scrape up things, preform surgery or many other things the dagger can be used for. A dagger could be used with a shield. Used with one hand. A dagger is simply a much more versatile weapon.
The reasons you would use a dagger are far different from the reasons you would use a greatsword. Not just something silly like "Oh you don't have prof with it, or you don't have enough str to use it cause you are a caster" But because you would end up building your character around the use of a dagger, or use a dagger as an emergency back up weapon in case of getting grappled.
And its cheating trying to compare different handedness weapons too. Like trying to compare cantrips to 9th level spells. I love how many times people try to do this and say "Crossbows and longbows are the same thing!"
Lets compare two, 2h weapons. Simple and Martial.
A spear deals 1d8+1.5 str bonus
A Great sword does 2d6 + 1.5 str bonus.
Honestly there are no feats between them that make one vastly better than the other. Spears crit harder and can be thrown.
Do note that a CB can be fired with one hand, whilst a LB can't.
Do note that a CB can be fired with one hand, whilst a LB can't.
Still need to use both hands to reload though, so that's an effectively nonexistent bonus if you plan on shooting your crossbow more than once.
You sure there is no way for a Dwarf with a heavy repeating cross bow to rock more that he would if had had used a short bow?
An alchemist TWF crossbow build might work if you use the vestigial arm to reload crossbows as needed. However the to hit penalties would be incredibly painful. -4 for firing a H.cbow onehanded, -4 for TWF (don't see crossbows qualifying as Light) would put you -8 and three feats (rr, crossbow mastery, TWF) behind an archer with a bow at level 7, which is the earliest this build would come online without bonus feats. You'd also miss out on ranged attack standards like Deadly Aim and Precise Shot.
Since your attack penalties are so high you'd probably not be able to take advantage of Deadly Aim and/or rapid shot, so that puts you further behind. At least you won't need those feats I guess.
Oh, and you get the joy of paying for enchanting two crossbows instead of one.
Edit: Something like this might work?
1. Alchemist: Rapid Reload (Heavy Crossbow)
2. Alchemist: Discovery: Vestigial Arm
3. Fighter: Point Blank Shot / Rapid Shot
4. Fighter: Crossbow Mastery (Heavy Crossbow)
5. Class X: Two Weapon Fighting
You sure there is no way for a Dwarf with a heavy repeating cross bow to rock more that he would if had had used a short bow?
The Repeating crossbow still needs both hands to work the reloading mechanism.
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You sure there is no way for a Dwarf with a heavy repeating cross bow to rock more that he would if had had used a short bow?
Dwarf with heavy repeating crossbow vs long bow.
Unless Dwarves get a bonus with HRxbow, I don't see how race is relevant here.
The big issues are, you need 2 feats to be able to reload it. Xbows don't have the ammo bows do, don't get str, and don't get many arrow
Many arrow doubles damage with a full ab.
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An alchemist TWF crossbow build might work if you use the vestigial arm to reload crossbows as needed. However the to hit penalties would be incredibly painful. -4 for firing a H.cbow onehanded, -4 for TWF (don't see crossbows qualifying as Light) would put you -8 and three feats (rr, crossbow mastery, TWF) behind an archer with a bow at level 7, which is the earliest this build would come online without bonus feats. You'd also miss out on ranged attack standards like Deadly Aim and Precise Shot.
Since your attack penalties are so high you'd probably not be able to take advantage of Deadly Aim and/or rapid shot, so that puts you further behind. At least you won't need those feats I guess.
Oh, and you get the joy of paying for enchanting two crossbows instead of one.
Edit: Something like this might work?
1. Alchemist: Rapid Reload (Heavy Crossbow)
2. Alchemist: Discovery: Vestigial Arm
3. Fighter: Point Blank Shot / Rapid Shot
4. Fighter: Crossbow Mastery (Heavy Crossbow)
5. Class X: Two Weapon Fighting
Actually you would want to go with light xbow there, Counts as a light weapon for Twf, but you still take -4 pen, -2 for rapid reload..
So you're taking a -6 penalty to be able to two-weapon fight, And you would need to spend Twf, Rapid Reload, Point blank, rapid shot, Vestigal arm.. Possibly VA x2
Amusingly if you use light crossbows you're then getting an additional attack at -4 for full attacks, for an extra "hit" of damage.
While an archer with Manyshot gets that additional attack baked into his first attack at no to hit penalty, and saves three feats and two levels of alchemist.
And the damage between Light crossbow and the longbow is identical - 1d8 before modifiers.
That is a very tempting idea, but I don't think vestigial arms let you wield weapons in them? Crossbows get around that by using the arm to reload instead of wield.
Edit: Ignore that, got the wording for the tiefling tail mixed up with the arm. That would indeed work! Wow, that is an awesome character concept.
You sure there is no way for a Dwarf with a heavy repeating cross bow to rock more that he would if had had used a short bow?The Repeating crossbow still needs both hands to work the reloading mechanism.
Why is that a problem?