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I think he was specifying that multiple throwing spears are fine at first level, but no longer worth it once magic comes into play?
Well at first level, how many can you afford/carry.
At 2nd level, masterwork comes into play.
At 3rd level, we are starting to discuss magic weapon...singular.
Which is why it is nice to have one weapon you can pour all your investment into that does everything for you.
Also, to be clear for later, I'm shooting for the goal of "not suck" rather than "better than the best option"
That is where I think the line should be for a simple weapon vs a martial weapon with the same resource investment. YMMV.
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It's not the same resource investment though. The halfling has to take an alternate racial trait just to reload as a free action, which means he can't take Fleet of Foot. In return he does less damage at a shorter range and with a lower critical multiplier.
A human has to spend two feats just to get the same benefits. What does the sling offer in return? The ability to use it as a melee weapon, but without any of your Weapon Focus feats attached. A-MAYZ-ing.
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It's not the same resource investment though. The halfling has to take an alternate racial trait just to reload as a free action, which means he can't take Fleet of Foot. In return he does less damage at a shorter range and with a lower critical multiplier.
A human has to spend two feats just to get the same benefits. What does the sling offer in return? The ability to use it as a melee weapon, but without any of your Weapon Focus feats attached. A-MAYZ-ing.
Why wouldn't the weapon focus feats be attached? Weapon focus is a pre-requisite and nothing in the feat says it doesn't apply when it is used as a flail.
You can't use the bow in melee without provoking unless you are a 4th level fighter (5th actually, because you need to take the feat after weapon specialization) or 6th level ranger.
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You're misreading the feat ciretose.
Benefit: You can make melee attacks using your loaded sling, using that weapon's normal statistics but treating it as a flail. Using a sling in this way does not expend mundane ammunition, but magical or masterwork ammunition loses its special properties after a single hit.
Special: Any feats you have that apply when you use a flail also apply when you use a loaded sling as a melee weapon.
So what does this feat give us? First off, we can use our +5 sling as a +5 flail, except it uses the statistics of a sling (1d3 or 1d4 depending on size). If we have feats that improve our abilities with a flail (Weapon Focus [flail], for example), we can use them when using our sling as a melee weapon. No mention of being able to use any of our abilities that improve slinging whatsoever. In fact, there is no mention of non-feat bonuses being useful to this, which means even weapon training with flails won't help our sling flail.
Therefore a fighter with weapon training, weapon focus, and weapon specialization in slings still gets no benefits for melee. Man, what a feat, right?
The builds I linked gave the longbowman a cestus, which has the same melee damage as a sling with Sling Flail. A fighter could also make use of his free retraining to grab Point-Blank Master and Weapon Specialization at level 4.
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No, I actually read the feat. Where in the feat does it say the bonuses do not apply.
It says.
"You can make melee attacks using your loaded sling, using that weapon's normal statistics but treating it as a flail. Using a sling in this way does not expend mundane ammunition, but magical or masterwork ammunition loses its special properties after a single hit."
You use the sling like a flail, but it is still a sling. All sling bonuses apply. Flail feats also apply.
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No, I actually read the feat. Where in the feat does it say the bonuses do not apply.
It says.
"You can make melee attacks using your loaded sling, using that weapon's normal statistics but treating it as a flail. Using a sling in this way does not expend mundane ammunition, but magical or masterwork ammunition loses its special properties after a single hit."
You use the sling like a flail, but it is still a sling. All sling bonuses apply. Flail feats also apply.
You're using it as a flail. In what way does Weapon Focus (sling) apply to the use of a flail? On the other hand, it's a sling, so it's lucky that they allow you to use flail-related feats on it at all.
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I agree with Mergy. The feat is pretty clear that the weapon is treated like a flail.
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So no, bow proficiency is not equal to a full feat investment.
For a rogue it is much much better to just use a shortbow.
A important question is, what number will convince you that the sling is terrible? does that number exist or whatever the outcome would you still saying everything is fine?
I ask the same questions about that number.
My rule of thumb for damage has consistently been DPR in excess of 1/4 of an equal CR opponent.
Or 4 players killing an equal CR creature in a round.
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I agree with Mergy. The feat is pretty clear that the weapon is treated like a flail.
FAQ it. Here is what it says.
"Prerequisites: Weapon Focus (sling), base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You can make melee attacks using your loaded sling, using that weapon's normal statistics but treating it as a flail. Using a sling in this way does not expend mundane ammunition, but magical or masterwork ammunition loses its special properties after a single hit.
Special: Any feats you have that apply when you use a flail also apply when you use a loaded sling as a melee weapon."
There is no reason to include the word "also" if the flail feats aren't in addition to the other feats that apply to the sling.
The sling is still a sling, you are just using it "like" a flail.
One of the benefits of slings and sling-staves is that you're always armed. To be really "always armed" means to invest a feat in Improved Unarmed Strike or to receive that feat as a class feature. Otherwise you have to pull a weapon to be armed.
"The sling is a strip of leather that costs nothing and can be worn like a bandana" is an advantage mentioned by this thread. Well...
- club and quarterstaff: sticks and big sticks
- cestus: stubbly wraps of metal and leather on the back of the hand
- dagger: a knife concealable on one's person with a skill roll
Still other weapons can justifiably meet the low price point or concealability. Several weapons resemble tools well enough to be employed in plain view as part of a disguise. All of this leads me to believe that the low cost/conealability of this weapon are of equal advantage of many other weapons and therefore this does not make the weapon appealing.
Finally there is the argument that a comp. longbow is so much more expensive to add str bonus to. I believe someone quoted the price as 200 GP. That IS a lot; you won't have a composite longbow during your very first adventure. You WILL however have the chance to invest a skill rank in Craft: Bow. After that first adventure, even if you don't have 200 GP, if you have 100 and some time on your hands you can use the Downtime system and make your own. Thus I submit that this is not such a great advantage of the sling as to make it appealing.
But I once again humbly submit that I'm not here to make the SLING better. Instead I'd like ways to make the SLING-ER better with their weapon. The slinger takes the same skills that ANY ranged build can. "But the bow is martial. The weapon is better and it gets feats that are more specialized to it's use. Martial weapons and their users are better in combat." Well, the weapons might be better but the bow, already a better weapon in combat, gets more feats.
The crossbow, a simple weapon, gets a feat the sling doesnt and is superior to start than the sling. Thanks to Mergy we know that Sling Flail does not necessarily give us an awesome flail. So we are left with an inferior weapon doing the same things that a crossbow can but minus one feat, a potentially middling melee weapon and trailing woefully behind the bow.
I don't need my halfling slinger to do the same damage as a human bowyer at the same level. He doesn't have to be "equal" to other ranged builds. Instead give him something unique and flavorful with with the sling; something the other ranged attackers don't already have.
I think you're on to something with Sling Flail though. Not in that it's a melee weapon; that ship has sailed. But the fact that, if it does in fact give you the option for +2 to Trip, this might be cool. But then if you're a halfling, you're already not built for CMB and if you're SOLELY focused on slings you probably haven't spent any feats on improving this detriment.
So why not some unique feat or chain of feats that uses extreme skill with a blunt object fired at high velocity by a person of honed accuracy to do something OTHER than murder (which the weapon's low damage output is not great at anyway). This leads me right back to ranged CMB attacks using the full ranged attack of the slinger as the CMB.
Ranged Disarm; Ranged Dirty Trick; Ranged Sunder or even Ranged Stun all seem like no-brainers. Most are not dependent on damage so the low damage w/the sling is fine. But while the bowyer dispatches foes quickly with devastating damage, the slinger instead uses precision skill to incapacitate foes or deter them from becoming a threat.
Also...stop giving spells to just bows and crossbows. We get magic stone. they get bowstaff, gravity bow, flaming arrow and if sure there's more I'm forgetting. C'mon, please? Stop punishing the sling already.
And if the sling flail still counts as a sling while used as a flail, can we use Rapid Shot to bash with it twice? ;D
(rapid shot only states it has to be a ranged weapon, not a ranged attack)
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Is there really confusion over whether the ability to use a sling more effectively as a sling grants the ability to use it better as a flail? Does the ability to fire into close combat and a bonus at close range really transfer to a melee weapon?
Or is it really just the last resort of the desperate?
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While they are writing that, maybe they could write the rules for letting me parry with my spear after I've thrown it across the room.
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And if the sling flail still counts as a sling while used as a flail, can we use Rapid Shot to bash with it twice? ;D
(rapid shot only states it has to be a ranged weapon, not a ranged attack)
Do you remember when we had a similar discussion about off-hand?
I FAQ'ed, but the word "also" has a meaning.
Once the kid goes to sleep I'll work on my builds. I'm thinking of doing a full party of slingers a level at a time up to 10th.
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I ask the same questions about that number.
My rule of thumb for damage has consistently been DPR in excess of 1/4 of an equal CR opponent.
Or 4 players killing an equal CR creature in a round.
At level 10, I will change my opion from "it sucks" to "it is just slighly not optimized", if and only if all the following are true
A) At range, the DPR of the slinger user does is least 90%(80%?) of the archer DPR.
B) The slinger is at least on par with e archer at "melee" range (less than 30 ft), and I mean defense and offense. (afther all the "I can use it as a flail" is stated as a adnvatage of the sling.)
This is why I like you Nicos. Even though we quite often disagree, you strive for fairness and standards.
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This is why I like you Nicos. Even though we quite often disagree, you strive for fairness and standards.I ask the same questions about that number.
My rule of thumb for damage has consistently been DPR in excess of 1/4 of an equal CR opponent.
Or 4 players killing an equal CR creature in a round.
At level 10, I will change my opion from "it sucks" to "it is just slighly not optimized", if and only if all the following are true
A) At range, the DPR of the slinger user does is least 90%(80%?) of the archer DPR.
B) The slinger is at least on par with e archer at "melee" range (less than 30 ft), and I mean defense and offense. (afther all the "I can use it as a flail" is stated as a adnvatage of the sling.)
Level by level is taking to long. One at a time, or at least the basics of one at a time
Halfling Fighter (Warslinger)
18 Str
18 Dex
14 Con
10 Int
12 Wis
10 Cha
AC: 27 (+10 Armor, +4 Dex, +2 Shield, +1 Size)
HP: 89
Fort: 12
Ref: 10
Will: 7
Weapon Training 2
Feats:
1: Halfling Slinger
Fighter 1: Large Target
Fighter 2: Weapon Focus
3:Sling Flail
Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization
5: Point Blank
Fighter 6: Precise Shot
7: Arc Slinger
Fighter 8: Deadly Aim
9: Rapid Rapid Shot
10: Greater Weapon Focus
Equip: Belt of Physical might (10k) +3 Sling (18k), Gloves of Dualing (15k), +1 Mithral Full plate (11500), +1 Buckler, .+2 Cloak of Resistance, 4k Misc.
+3 Sling Ranged: +25/+20 (1d3+13 (+1 for every size category above small, +1 within 50 feet)
Deadly Aim (+22/+17 1d3+19 (+1 for every size category above small, +1 within 50 feet)
Rapid Shot +23/+23/+18 (1d3+13 (+1 for every size category above small, +1 within 50 feet)
RS + DA Deadly Aim (+19/+19/+14 1d3+19 (+1 for every size category above small, +1 within 50 feet)
Sling Melee: +25/+20 (1d6+13 (+1 for every size category above small)
I'll work on the Human Fighter later. Possibly tomorrow after this gets checked.
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Is there really confusion over whether the ability to use a sling more effectively as a sling grants the ability to use it better as a flail? Does the ability to fire into close combat and a bonus at close range really transfer to a melee weapon?
Or is it really just the last resort of the desperate?
Weapon focus, not abilities that only apply to ranged attacks.
You can't add deadly aim, you can use weapon focus. It is still a +3 weapon either way.
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Against a CR10 medium-sized encounter, assuming both uses Deadly Aim + Rapid Shot (and I think it's worth it in both cases) this is the DPR:
Calculation is (%ToHit * AvgDamage)+(%ToThreaten * %ToHit * AvgDamage * (CritMultiplier-1).
Sling shooting
.8*22+(.05*.8*21)+.8*22+(.05*.8*21)+.55*22+(.05*.55*21)= 49.56
If the enemy is within 50 ft. the damage increases to 55.54.
If the enemy is huge instead of medium the damage increases to 53.86.
If it's a huge enemy within 50 ft. the damage increases to 59.98
Sling melee range:
.95*16.5+(.05*.95*16.5)+.85*16.5(.05*.85*16.5) = 26.29
If Arc Slinger is swapped for Power Attack, DPR would instead be 38.92.
Note that this is with the most generous reading for how Sling Flail works in regards to sling-specific feats. I do not agree with that reading but whatever.
Archer shooting:
.85*41(.1*.85*20.5*2)+.85*20.5+(.1*.85*20.5*2)+.5*20.5+(.1*.5*20.5*2)= 71.55
Archer melee range:
.9*43+(.1*.9*21.5*2)+.9*21.5+(.1*.9*21.5*2)+.55*21.5+(.1*.55*21.5*2)= 79.98
If we assume that the archer does not herself try to enter melee and rather than that is charged/someone moves up to her to attack etc, she also gain an attack of opportunity, bringing up the damage to 103.2
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(Two post to keep the maths and the analysis/opinions split apart)
So in a very favourable scenario, where they are both attacking a Huge target at between 30 and 50 feet, the archer "only" does about 19% more damage. And that's kind of a best case scenario, and if the huge creature moves closer to them the archer will do a lot more damage.
At melee range, discounting AoO's, the archer does 204% more damage. I do think it's worth swapping Arc Slinger for Power Attack, and in that case the archer would only deal 105% more damage than the sling.
Other noteworthy stuff about the characters:
- The archer has slightly higher AC but noticably lower HP.
- They are about equal in saves.
- The slinger basically only has standard attacks/full attacks as a tactic. The archer however, has Improved Snap Shot, which means it has a certain degree of area control, and so if it keeps in one place it will have a really strong defense - anyone moving up to it will eat an arrow (90% hit chance against average CR10 monster) before it even reaches her. Sure, the slinger can make a weak 16.5 damage whack against anything within 5ft, but that kinda pales compared to a 21.5 damage arrow at anything within 15 ft.
- The archer is 50% faster at moving than the slinger.
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I forgot to add the +1 to attack for point blank (only the damage), so all the point blank attacks (within 50 for arc slinger) should be +1.
So calculating it all out to make sure I got it correct.
Base is 10+4(Dex)+4(WT)+2(WF)+3(Weapon)+1(HS)+1Size for a total base of 25.
-3 DA, -2 RS, +1 Point blank (within 50) takes it to 21. So that changes the calculation significantly.
I think (check me please) that changes it to be base 50.72
Small Within 50 feet 56.6 (+1 Attack and +1 damage)
Medium within 50 feet 59.17 (+1 attack +2 Damage)
Large within 50 feet 61.74 (+1 attack +3 Damage)
Huge within 50 feet 64.31 (+1 attack +4 Damage)
If AC is an issue, I still can get a ring and an amulet (I have 4k left). Also, we have the same armor and he has a +11 while I have a +10, so base we should have the same AC, but one of us is not correct. Also Adaptive adds 1k to the bow.
I don't disagree risky strike is a way to go, but I like arc slinger for the 50 foot +1 to point blank. This is a ranged build with melee as a fall back or for AoO. If I were making a melee build with ranged back up, I would go that way (along with other changes)
I'll work on the fighter later.
Hum... Could you write out your numbers please? I see that you reduced attack bonus too much for DA/RS in your first numbers, but for Huge within 50 ft I get:
Sling +21/+21/+16 (1d3+23) (1d3+4Str+4WT+2WS+6DA+1PBS+3LT+3Magic)
.9*25+(.05*.9*22)+.9*25+(.05*.9*22)+.65*22+(.05*.65*22) = 39.98.
Large 61.495
You're right on AC though.
But I mean, at this point from what we can see here, it's an inferior build at range, and the argument you put forward was that it's great to have a melee weapon as a fallback - but in no way do you capitalize on it in your build (since that would give up even more ranged damage) and at short range the slinger is completely outshone by the archer.
I'm beginning to realize how limited are the options for martial characters. It's either 2-Handed , Archery, TWF (with 2 light weapons) or Sword & Board. With great effort, you can push "Combat Maneuvers" here too, but only at low/mid levels and against humanoids.
TWF?
Unless you get a static damage bonus to all your attacks that with two weapons isn't the same as with a single two-handed weapon (such as sneak attack), all you will be doing with TWF is spending feats to try to keep up with how a two-handed weapon works for free, while you are more affected by DR than the Two-handed guy. And the only benefit is the ability to divide your damage between more targets which in turn is only advisable once an attack actually incapacitates one target.
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The argument I put forward is that you can make a viable build with it. It is a simple weapon, I don't personally have the goal of every simple weapon should be as good as every other weapon.
I'm sure your numbers are more correct than mine, I'm half asleep. Two years olds, man...
I met my goal (60+ hit points vs 130 hit points of an equal CR creature) but not Nicos.
Manyshot is basically the difference between the builds in damage. I'm pretty sure when I build out the human fighter, it will be the same thing.
I'm not sure if slings need a many shot or many shot needs a nerf. I'm not bothered by it, personally. But if I were I would add an attack penalty to many shot. Probably a -2 since it basically is adding another attack.
Actually, if we removed Manyshot they'd be about equal on ranged damage (archer winning against some, slinger against some), but the archer would still be FAAAR better at melee range. And that's dropping the Manyshot feat, not replacing it with something else.
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Actually, if we removed Manyshot they'd be about equal on ranged damage (archer winning against some, slinger against some), but the archer would still be FAAAR better at melee range. And that's dropping the Manyshot feat, not replacing it with something else.
And again, it is a simple weapon that you can fit in your pocket and that melee only works with 4th level fighters and 6th level rangers.
If I had my druthers, I would make deadly aim precision damage, meaning it didn't work with many shot and call it a day. But I'm also not bothered if the weapon that is more commonly used is better as long as both weapons are viable.
As I said, I more than made the goal I set, but I fell short of Nico's goal. I think because there is too much damage in the bow, not too little in the sling.
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So now the Human
18 Str
18 Dex
14 Con
10 Int
12 Wis
10 Cha
AC: 26 (+10 Armor, +4 Dex, +2 Shield)
HP: 89
Fort: 11
Ref: 9
Will: 8
Weapon Training 2
Feats:
Human: Point Blank
1:Rapid Reload
Fighter 1: Ammo Drop
Fighter 2: Weapon Focus (Sling)
3:Precise Shot
Fighter 4: Deadly Aim
5:Weapon Specialization
Fighter 6: Juggle Load
7: Point Blank Master
8: Arc Slinger
9: Greater Weapon Focus
10: Iron Will
Equip: Belt of Physical might (10k) +3 Sling (18k), Gloves of Dualing (15k), +1 Mithral Full plate (11500), +1 Buckler, .+2 Cloak of Resistance, 4k Misc.
+3 Sling Ranged: +24/+19 (1d4+13 (+1 within 50 feet)
Deadly Aim (+21/+16 1d4+19 (+1 within 50 feet)
Rapid Shot +22/+22/+17 (1d4+13 (+1 within 50 feet)
RS + DA Deadly Aim (+19/+19/+14 1d3+19 (+1 within 50 feet)
Sling Melee: +24/+19 (1d4+13 (+1)
Probably a small drop ranged, but now my ranged is melee.
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It wouldn't fly with me in PFS, because of the rules about reskinning. The problem with a self delusion trick is that it invites a score of issues like "why did warp wood just break my sling?".
In a home game, you are perfectly right that a sling could just use the composite longbow stats. I'd like it a lot better if weapons in this game had a lot of the same stats with only slight differences (bludgeoning vs. piercing, for example).
Interesting rory. Verymuch so.
May post ideas for the sling in my home games later.
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Here's what I'm thinking for the sling as a weapon. Since I don't do builds where you plan out feats by level, this may be stronger or weaker to the perspective of those who do.
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Then you're not playing a slinger, you're playing a madman. I don't really see how that helps. ;P
Then you're not playing a slinger, you're playing a madman. I don't really see how that helps. ;P
easy kc, you know how sensitive the character is about their "sling"!
"Nice..uh, sling you got there [insert character's name here]."
Me, I don't like that for the same reason I hate episodes of shows where it's implied the whole show is a hallucination, like in the sixth season of Buffy (and parodied expertly on Community). I'm already suspending my disbelief. Don't make me suspend it twice. ;D