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I don't think the sling should be an EWP. You could probably learn it in an afternoon. I can sort of do it, and I'm not a serious slinger. It's probably a regular martial weapon, but should be bestowed on most of the medium BAB classes. It's definitely not a "simple" weapon that should be readily available to wizards, peasants (unless it's their primary weapon), etc. Generally speaking, it's an alternative to the shortbow for places where it makes sense, for economic reasons or because of the kind of shooting they do, or because shortbows are an unfamiliar weapon.
Technically, a horn longbow is a composite bow. It's a long piece of laminated wood with two strips of horn or bone on it. However, it's not better than, and requires more maintenance than, a high quality wood bow. Generally speaking, composite bows are better than self bows, but not as powerful as longbows (whether all wood, double recurved, laminated, or otherwise), including box-shaped horse bows.
While we're on the subject, bucklers (in Pathfinder) are not bucklers (they would be shields, whereas most small shields in Pathfinder would be considered bucklers in real life), bastard swords are actually long swords, longswords are side swords or arming swords or just "swords," falchions and scimitars are often drawn as tulwars by the artists, battlefield shuriken generally had between two and five points and weighed a good several ounces, battle-axes were usually bearded rather than bipennis, shortswords slash as well as pierce, chainmail is redundant (like saying salsa sauce), military lances generally did not have the distinctive contours of a jousting lance (they were usually just fat-headed spears with a built in boss and couching), a nunchaku is really just a flail with a specialized design to make it reversible, and studded leather armor is mainly made of metal (the studs are the rivets or brads).
It is a lever. But the force comes from the swinging motion, not from a Jai alai type arm extension.
If you can see that video and think that the guy's strength has nothing to do with the power behind that stone, then I don't even know how to have this discussion with you anymore.
Yes. I also believe the world was round then, despite primary sources of dragons beyond the horizon...
The Greeks knew the world was round starting with Pythagoras, 200 years before Xenophon.
Actually, shockingly few ancient people actually thought the Earth was flat--it's basically impossible to be a seafaring culture and think that the world is flat because the horizon exists.
You also have to realize that while a culture's mythology might describe the world as flat (say, some the Egyptians that said the Earth was a flat disk floating in water), that doesn't necessarily mean they believed it was literally true. Most people can recognize that myths can carry truth and valuable lessons without requiring them to be literally true (the majority of Christians and Jews don't literally believe in the story of Adam and Eve, for example).
Putting aside the hilarity of dismissing first-person, primary source historical records in favor of Deadliest Warrior, and demanding actual data, in the same breath...Said the notoriously inaccurate Ancient Greek Historians, pertaining to a period how many centuries prior to the medieval period of which the setting derives?
If you want to argue lead shot should be sold for more damage, that seems reasonable.
But without actual data, I'm not going with the same type of historians who claimed millions (plural) of Persians were at the Battle of Thermopylae...
Data that is notable for how wrong it is. (Again, first hand accounts of millions of persians at Thermopylae.)
Vs actual, tested data.
Yes. I also believe the world was round then, despite primary sources of dragons beyond the horizon...
I just told you that you were thinking of the wrong historian. Xenophon didn't write Herodotus's account of the Battle of Thermopylae, and he didn't write about dragons. And even if he had, who cares how many troops he thought the Persians had, we're talking about his own men.
Also, Herodotus's account of Thermopylae was not first hand (as I also just told you). Herodotus was an infant when Thermopylae was fought, so even if I hadn't just told you that it wasn't first hand, it would seem unlikely that he was in the army there.
Don't use words like first hand so erroneously - please! Otherwise I'll be forced to summon Kirth's Stuffy Grammarian. :)
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To me, it's not just about "Coolness", or DPR, or Realism.
It's just to me, there is one truism about options:
If you give someone an option, then give them a reason to take it. It can be "This does more damage, this has a longer range, this is better at close range". Cost is an okay factor, but I really don't think it offsets enough, except in the early game, where I guess you're supposed to trade up from one weapon type to the other.
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In any case - this is fast moving beyond the scope of this thread.
If you want to start a new thread to discuss the systematic inaccuracy of Greek reports of Persian military strength, I'll participate with all the glee of an Internet nerd called on to discuss his area of academic specialty. Since Greek records of Persian military strength (including Herodotus's account, which relied on records shown to him by the Persians, not first hand witnesses) are almost all drawn from Persian sources, it's likely that the Persians systematically inflated their own numbers when dealing with the Greeks, in order to intimidate the Greeks with the military strength of their empi... sorry, that's the nerd glee carrying me away again.
In this case, however - you questioned Xenophon's account that lead sling bullets outranged Persian long bows, because Herodotus gives inaccurate numbers of Persian soldiers at Thermopylae. I reject this as irrelevant, point out that Xenophon is very reliable as a first-hand source, and also point out out that Xenophon's account is actually consistent with your Deadliest Warrior data, as both agree that slingers using stones would have been outranged by the large bows of the Persians.
Moving on?
So in summation:
Slings were dangerous, certainly more than 1d4 plus strength (assuming the average soldier has a +2 at best). They also shouldn't be a simple weapon, because it requires years of training to become good with it from a military standpoint. Composite longbows never existed, and regular longbows had just as much trouble with plated armour as slings did, although slings had the potential to seriously hurt someone even if they didn't penetrate.
I feel like we could move beyond 'what is the deal with slings?' to 'can we please change slings?'.
D4 + str is slightly better than d6 without str. So, yes, slings were dangerous. They did slightly more damage than the bow of that period did. Both Balearic slingers and Cretan archers were respected and feared. Indeed, in PF there's little to choose between a sling and a non-str short bow. In fact most will pick the sling.
It's true that experts with the sling could be even more dangerous. Like i said a halfling slinger archetype would be very cool. I hope Paizo does one.
The Composite longbow is what the Samurai carried. It most certainly did exist.
The regular LB could penetrate amor better than a sling, but what it really had going for it was it's RoF, which was amazing. And, that's exactly where the sling falls down in PF. RoF. Think about it. The range is no big deal. Damage? Well, when you think you get the "strength bow" advantage for free rather than hundreds of GP, it's pretty darn good.
But unless you're a halfing, RoF is slow. And manyshot is not available, quite correctly too. But for the special halfing slinger archetype, perhaps they could have multishot with a sling.
I also think that the staff sling needs to be able to fire alchemical grenades.
So, I think the sling, as is, fills a needed niche in PF. It's free, and you get the "strength bow" adaantage also for free. Ammo is free. It weighs nil. It can be hidden. All this means that the sling as a simple weapon is just fine.
What's needed is a archetype that allows one to get ALMOST as good as a longbowman with a sling.
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You guys do know that Ammo Drop and Juggle Load don't require being a halfling right? (I always thought they did) Any serious sling fighter could reload a sling as a free action by second level. I'm just saying. It is still true that many shot is not available. However, instead of just going on and on about the same argument that is getting us nowhere, let's design some feats or sling stones or even our own slinger archetype for use.
I even got one to start us off!
Shattering bullet
Price (incredibly rough ballpark, basically throwing out a number): 50gp per 10
This sling stone is specially crafted to explode into smaller shards once it hits a predetermined velocity. Using an exploding bullet causes 1d4 points of bleed damage to any creature it hits.
You guys do know that Ammo Drop and Juggle Load don't require being a halfling right? (I always thought they did) Any serious sling fighter could reload a sling as a free action by second level. I'm just saying. It is still true that many shot is not available. However, instead of just going on and on about the same argument that is getting us nowhere, let's design some feats or sling stones or even our own slinger archetype for use.
I even got one to start us off!
Shattering bullet
Price (incredibly rough ballpark, basically throwing out a number): 50gp per 10
This sling stone is specially crafted to explode into smaller shards once it hits a predetermined velocity. Using an exploding bullet causes 1d4 points of bleed damage to any creature it hits.
I like the way you think Brewhammer! (Ironically a PC in our last campaign was named Korgrymm Brewhammer. We called him 'Uncle Brew')
Feat: Ranged Disarm
(this is taken from 3.5)
Requrements: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Dex 15, BAB +5
Effect: make an attack with a sling. This attack is a Standard action. Use your attack roll in place of your CMB to perform a Disarm maneuver on a foe within 30'. This feat does not stack with Improved Disarm.
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Bouncing Stone:
Requirements: BAB (+6), Point-Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (Sling) or Halfling
Effect: As a standard action, take a single attack with a sling. On successful hit you can make an additional attack against another opponent within range. This attack has a -5 penalty and only adds half Strength modifier to damage.
Improved Bouncing Stone:
Requirements: BAB (+11), Point Blank Shot, Weapon Focus (Sling), Bouncing Stone
Effect: If both attacks from Bouncing Stone are successful, you may make a third attack against a third opponent within range. This attack has a -10 penalty and only adds half your Strength modifier to damage.
Special: Your additional attack from Bouncing Stone now adds your full Strenght modifer to damage.
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I'll bring up my idea for Stunning Shot again. Works a little like the Stunning Fist Feat but uses a sling.
Requirements: DEX 15, STR 11, Weapon Focus (Sling), base attack bonus +5. Using lead ammunition (not stones).
Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Shot forces a foe damaged by your sling attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Dex modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next turn). A stunned character drops everything held, can’t take actions, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a –2 penalty to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained, and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
I feel like we could move beyond 'what is the deal with slings?' to 'can we please change slings?'.I feel slings are pretty decent in the game just as is.
A halfling slinger is 1.5 damage, a slight crit disadvantage, and 10 feet slower than a halfling archer. That's a terrible margin. Halfings per D&D history are supposed to be good at throwing.
The halfling sling staff made up that difference nicely by only making halfling slingers 10 foot movement slower than halfling archers. That's not that bad. The halfling racial sling can also act as a makeshift club (as can the bow, but bows take a -4 to hit like that).
But then, they gutted the halfling racial sling where it is absolutely terrible for any PC that wants to use the racial weapon on a normal basis.
Why? Because... realism? I have no idea really.
Remember, Pathfinder is a world of halflings, elves, dwarves, and magic. Realism is a secondary consideration at best.
I will never understand the logic behind the Devs' decision that none of the halfling racial traits or feats for slings should apply to the halfling racial sling.
Composite longbows certainly exist.
the Mongolian Horse Bow is the standard for the composite long bow. It was drawn to the cheek...that's the rule for a Long bow. No, it didn't stand six foot high, it didn't have to...composite bows are shorter then stave bows. So, go look at the Empire of Gengis Khan conquering China and much of the world with the composite bow to see how deadly it is.
Short bows are drawn to the chest. Composite SHORT bows are actually probably harder to find in reality, perhaps the earliest and lightest Mongolian bows.
The daikyu in Japan is also a composite bow, albeit much longer and with an offset draw where you can really see the composite influence.
Stave longbows are basically found in England, centered on the Welsh and spreading from there, although there's actually a super-sized version in Africa, too. The 'wet environment' argument is extremely accurate...English stave bows could endure conditions a composite bow could not. Or crossbows, for that matter, since the only vulnerable part was the string, which you could take off and secure under your hat.
==Aelryinth
Slings for everybody!
Except ciretose.
I actually am playing a halfling sling fighter/barbarian in one of my campaigns.
He's awesome.
Would be better mechanically with a longbow.
Yeah.
But he's a halfling barbarian with a sling.
hmm... maybe....
Feel free to check the posts I was summarizing ciretose.The posts you were summarizing didn't provide any actual evidence.
The Incas and the Aztecs lost to the Spanish, who by the way were generally lightly armored because it was the 1500's not the 1200's.
What I've seen a lot of is people who want slings to be better saying "Slings should be better" and not a lot of actual evidence as to why they should be better.
It would be like me going "Why aren't boomerangs as good as bows in the game?!?!"
nope, no slings for you.
For "Persian Immortal vs Celt"
"For long-range weapons, the bow and arrow was tested against the sling. The bow and arrow's effective range was 50 yards while the sling delivered two kills and three wounds with five shots. The edge was given to the bow and arrow for it superior range, accuracy, rate of fire, and lethality."
Makes sense to me. Xenophon's Anabasis recorded that Greek slingers slinging stones were getting the worst of a struggle against Persian archers - particularly due to a range advantage, as the Persians were particularly adept at long range archery - until Rhodian slingers armed with lead bullets, which greatly enhanced their range, entered the fray and roflstomped the Persians.
I don't think the Celts manufactured lead bullets, so Deadliest Warrior likely got it right (for once).
dw gets a couple of things right. Most people don't get (or care for)that the show is based around a killshot program that ignores a lot of factors that would play a role in fight.
You guys do know that Ammo Drop and Juggle Load don't require being a halfling right? (I always thought they did) Any serious sling fighter could reload a sling as a free action by second level. I'm just saying. It is still true that many shot is not available. However, instead of just going on and on about the same argument that is getting us nowhere, let's design some feats or sling stones or even our own slinger archetype for use.
I even got one to start us off!
Shattering bullet
Price (incredibly rough ballpark, basically throwing out a number): 50gp per 10
This sling stone is specially crafted to explode into smaller shards once it hits a predetermined velocity. Using an exploding bullet causes 1d4 points of bleed damage to any creature it hits.
niiiiice. Would lower the bleed damage though, but that's just me.
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Feat support for slings would be fine. Something that allows Rapid Reload (a single feat, because crossbows have it), something that allows a Manyshot effect (because it's no sillier to shoot two bullets with a single shot than it is to shoot two arrows), or at least something unique that can be done.
Strength to damage doesn't count. It's a great first level parlour trick, but that's it.
I have little problem with parlor tricks. I think every weapon should have one or two, and I've been working on that for a while in my homebrew.
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I'm not too hung up on realism, but I'm a fan of the Táin Bó Cúailnge, more so than the Lord of the Rings. I'd like to be able to play Cuchulainn and be just as bad-ass with a sling as Legolas is with a bow, but I'm not allowed to. In fact, I'm not allowed to even be in the same league; there's no comparison at all. At higher levels (like those represented by Cuchulainn in the Tain), a sling isn't an "inferior" option; it's a "worthless trash" non-option. This makes me sad, because it says very clearly that "this game is for LOTR fans only; fans of Irish epics need not apply."
Heh.
One day people in the future will argue the tommy gun was inferior to other guns in ww2 just because it was in a minority.
And it was, at least according to my Dad, who fought in that War and had the Combat Infantry badge. Sure, for suppressing fire the Thompson was Ok, and in close quarters that or carbines were OK also . The gun wasn’t nearly as accurate as the Garand, quite heavy, had shorter range, much less powerful, poor penetration, and had a nasty tendency to jam when it got dirty.
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It is a lever. But the force comes from the swinging motion, not from a Jai alai type arm extension.
If you can see that video and think that the guy's strength has nothing to do with the power behind that stone, then I don't even know how to have this discussion with you anymore.
Yes. I also believe the world was round then, despite primary sources of dragons beyond the horizon...The Greeks knew the world was round starting with Pythagoras, 200 years before Xenophon.
Actually, shockingly few ancient people actually thought the Earth was flat--it's basically impossible to be a seafaring culture and think that the world is flat because the horizon exists.
You also have to realize that while a culture's mythology might describe the world as flat (say, some the Egyptians that said the Earth was a flat disk floating in water), that doesn't necessarily mean they believed it was literally true. Most people can recognize that myths can carry truth and valuable lessons without requiring them to be literally true (the majority of Christians and Jews don't literally believe in the story of Adam and Eve, for example).
Great. And they said over a million people we at an event where it wasn't physically possible to have close to a million people, and the first person account cited is about 5 times what was actually present.
So, you know...
And the velocity of the swing comes from the technique as much as any actual strength. The sling is not solid, the force is from the centripetal motion, which is generated more by technique used than strength of the user. If the string were a solid object, it would be more of a direct transfer. Basic physics.
But if you have any evidence, at all, what damage from a sling was relative to bows, or accuracy, or...well...anything made of actual data, I would love to discuss it.
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I just told you that you were thinking of the wrong historian. Xenophon didn't write Herodotus's account of the Battle of Thermopylae, and he didn't write about dragons. And even if he had, who cares how many troops he thought the Persians had, we're talking about his own men.
And we are talking about someone who can't tell the difference between 20,000 and 100,000.
And none of it is actual data. We have actual data, you just don't like it because it doesn't agree with your position.
We history majors call that sociology :)
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I'm not too hung up on realism, but I'm a fan of the Táin Bó Cúailnge, more so than the Lord of the Rings. I'd like to be able to play Cuchulainn and be just as bad-ass with a sling as Legolas is with a bow, but I'm not allowed to. In fact, I'm not allowed to even be in the same league; there's no comparison at all. At higher levels (like those represented by Cuchulainn in the Tain), a sling isn't an "inferior" option; it's a "worthless trash" non-option. This makes me sad, because it says very clearly that "this game is for LOTR fans only; fans of Irish epics need not apply."
Numbers don't back this up. Sorry.
There is a lot of talk about how bad the sling is, and it isn't born out in the numbers in threads I've seen. Is it behind the composite longbow? Yes. It is "useless"? Far from it.
Although I would like a Gáe Bulg to be added.
I'm not too hung up on realism, but I'm a fan of the Táin Bó Cúailnge, more so than the Lord of the Rings. I'd like to be able to play Cuchulainn and be just as bad-ass with a sling as Legolas is with a bow, but I'm not allowed to. In fact, I'm not allowed to even be in the same league; there's no comparison at all. At higher levels (like those represented by Cuchulainn in the Tain), a sling isn't an "inferior" option; it's a "worthless trash" non-option. This makes me sad, because it says very clearly that "this game is for LOTR fans only; fans of Irish epics need not apply."
So, why is it worthless? That damage is 2 points less. At high levels, that’s nothing. You can use PB shot, precise shot, improved precise shot, Pinpoint targeting, weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater wpn spec.etc, so that for any single attack your sling is as deadly as a bow.
And in fact once Cú Chulainn got out of his youth he used the Gae Bulg. Not to mention the sword Caladbolg and others.
In this tale
http://adminstaff.vassar.edu/sttaylor/Cooley/TakingArms.html
Cú Chulainn uses a sling but once, and not as a weapon. He uses in battle a hurling stone from a “lath-trick” (Hurling a ball of iron), a well-tempered lance= the Craisech Neme ('the Venomous Lance') and then Conchobar's sword . Later he does kill 16 swans with one stone from a sling.
Fans of Irish epics would have Cú Chulainn using the Gae Bulg, a artifact level spear. That's what's he's known for.
Fans of Irish epics would have Cú Chulainn using the Gae Bulg, a artifact level spear. That's what's he's known for.
The Gae Bulg is a plot device; it's a "win" button he uses twice when he can't win on his own. The rest of the time in the Tain he uses a sling to deadly effect -- to the point where Medb starts going around dressed as a lady-in-waiting, and suckers her followers into wearing her stuff. (In other scenes, he kills "a hundred men of Erin every night" with his sling.)
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@ Ciretose
You said you have ahalfling barbarian slinger that is not that effective but you still have fun with him
SImple qustion, woudl your fun be disrupted if the game have some mechanic that give oru slinger good and different options that make you more or less on par (never superior) to a comparable archer?
yes or nay?
Not as effective at being an ranged attacker as the Longbow specialist, yes.
But effective and I think just as useful as an archer.
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Fans of Irish epics would have Cú Chulainn using the Gae Bulg, a artifact level spear. That's what's he's known for.The Gae Bulg is a plot device; it's a "win" button he uses twice when he can't win on his own. The rest of the time in the Tain he uses a sling to deadly effect -- to the point where Medb starts going around dressed as a lady-in-waiting, and suckers her followers into wearing her stuff. (In other scenes, he kills "a hundred men of Erin every night" with his sling.)
Pick a level and I'll make you a slinger.
So, why is it worthless? That damage is 2 points less. At high levels, that’s nothing. You can use PB shot, precise shot, improved precise shot, Pinpoint targeting, weapon focus, greater weapon focus, weapon specialization, greater wpn spec.etc, so that for any single attack your sling is as deadly as a bow.1d8 composite longbow with XX str
1d3-1 sling with XX-2 STR (halflings having -2 STR adjustment)
That's 3.5 damage per hit difference. At low levels, that is significant.
Cú Chulainn has a str in the high 20's, more when he's in a Rage.
And what you're comparing is a small sling with a medium LB.
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Fans of Irish epics would have Cú Chulainn using the Gae Bulg, a artifact level spear. That's what's he's known for.The Gae Bulg is a plot device; it's a "win" button he uses twice when he can't win on his own. The rest of the time in the Tain he uses a sling to deadly effect -- to the point where Medb starts going around dressed as a lady-in-waiting, and suckers her followers into wearing her stuff. (In other scenes, he kills "a hundred men of Erin every night" with his sling.)
Geee, you know I just linked to one of his most famous early exploits before he got the Gae Bulg. NOT ONCE did he use his sling vs a human foes.
In the Táin Bó Cúailnge
Feidelm sez Cú Chulainn will win the battle by :
"Like is his prowess to that of Cú Chulainn of Murthemne.I know not who is this Cú Chulainn of fairest fame, but this I do know, that by him the army will be bloodily wounded.
I see a tall man in the plain who gives battle to the host. In each hand he holds four small swords with which to perform great deeds.
He attacks with his gáe bolga and also with his ivory-hilted sword and his spear. He can ply them on the host. Each weapon as he casts it has its own special use. " (Note the sling is not mentioned)
First battle "Then Cú Chulainn went round the host until he was at Áth nGrencha. There he cut down a forked branch with one blow of his sword and fixed it in the middle of the stream so that a chariot could not pass it on this side or on that. While he was thus engaged Eirr and Indell with their two charioteers, Fóich and Fochlam, came up with him. He cut off their four heads and impaled them on the four prongs of the forked branch. Hence the name Áth nGabla."
Now yes, at thsi battle Cú Chulainn killed a lot of men with his sling. And hurling stones, and a sword, and spears and various other weapons. Not to mention his bare hands. In fact Cú Chulainn uses just about every weapon there is, except a bow, since no one used them then as weapons of war.
So yeah, in a world where THERE ARE NO BOWS the greatest Champion of them all, the master of all weapons, who is able to kill with his bare hand and even a look, does use a sling. And a spear, sword, axe, hurling stone, the boss of his shield, and just about anything he can lay his hands on.
So, sure, in a world where the Bow does not exist then a slinger is going to be pretty heroic. (No one wears armor either.).
And you said "I'm not too hung up on realism, but I'm a fan of the Táin Bó Cúailnge, more so than the Lord of the Rings. I'd like to be able to play Cuchulainn and be just as bad-ass with a sling as Legolas is with a bow, but I'm not allowed to. In fact, I'm not allowed to even be in the same league; there's no comparison at all. At higher levels (like those represented by Cuchulainn in the Tain), a sling isn't an "inferior" option; it's a "worthless trash" non-option. This makes me sad, because it says very clearly that "this game is for LOTR fans only; fans of Irish epics need not apply."
But I just proved that Cú Chulainn was known mostly for his skill with the spear and sword. Yes, he was deadly with a sling, but also with his bare hands, the crosspiece of a chariot, a piece of gaming equipment that the hockey stick is closest to, and even his bare hands.
You know, Robin Hoods 2nd best weapon was the quarterstaff. But that’s No where NEAR as good as a Two handed sword. It has a heavy feat tax, etc. That’s it he’s “not allowed to even be in the same league; there's no comparison at all. At higher levels the staff isn't an "inferior" option; it's a "worthless trash" non-option. This makes me sad, because it says very clearly that "this game is for LOTR fans only; fans of British epics need not apply”.
Hmm Conan fights two weapon style, but the math’s have proved two handed weapon is the way to go “That’s it he’s “not allowed to even be in the same league; there's no comparison at all. At higher levels two weapon isn't an "inferior" option; it's a "worthless trash" non-option. This makes me sad, because it says very clearly that "this game is for LOTR fans only; fans of Hyborean epics need not apply”.
And so forth.
I'll bring up my idea for Stunning Shot again. Works a little like the Stunning Fist Feat but uses a sling.
Requirements: DEX 15, STR 11, Weapon Focus (Sling), base attack bonus +5. Using lead ammunition (not stones).
Benefit: You must declare that you are using this feat before you make your attack roll (thus, a failed attack roll ruins the attempt). Stunning Shot forces a foe damaged by your sling attack to make a Fortitude saving throw (DC 10 + 1/2 your character level + your Dex modifier), in addition to dealing damage normally. A defender who fails this saving throw is stunned for 1 round (until just before your next turn). A stunned character drops everything held, can’t take actions, loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and takes a –2 penalty to AC. You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained, and no more than once per round. Constructs, oozes, plants, undead, incorporeal creatures, and creatures immune to critical hits cannot be stunned.
I would remove the "Using lead ammunition" prerequisite, and instead note in the description itself that this is only effective using actual Sling Bullets. That way, it can also be used with Cold Iron, Adamantine, or other metallic ammunition. I would probably note that it has to inflict Bludgeoning damage too, unless you're okay with it being used with Sharpstones.
I began the thread (and continue to interact with it) for the love of a Halfling with a sling. For all his...character Ciretose at least points out that in the current RAW these guys are not worthless. Many others have posted some genuine solutions to the problem of supporting this weapon and archetype. That's where this thread started and should be maintained.
I wasn't looking for a historical debate and I certainly never contended that in the real world the sling is better than the bow. PF has maintained the sling at the damage it does and that's what it is. Thankfully it includes Str damage.
But if folks want to quote data, factoids, tv or ancient history, all due respect but make your own thread please.
C-battery: please post your build if you have it handy. My own build (as I mentioned upthread) was around being a ranger and eventually gestalting into a cavalier though the game never got that far. My hope is that by discussing our own experiences with slinger characters we can understand the reasoning behind the modest support the sling has received from these games and brainstorm precisely what (if anything) we'd like different.
