I depends utterly on what classes you are mixing and whether you want maintained performance or an uneven power spread.
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It entirely depends. If you're looking at something like dipping oracle for a charisma kick to your AC, early is good. If you're looking for a paladin's better saves, early is good. If you're looking for bonus feats from a fighter...later levels are usually pretty good, as you can use them strategically. It all depends on what you're trying to accomplish.
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Keep in mind doing something like 2 levels opens up the chance to take feats like extra discovery for an alchemist, or extra some other 2nd level feature, like rage. Same for three levels of stuff like arcanas of a magus.
Also try to avoid taking your first two levels in classes that give no BAB.
It is fine to level dip once or twice for casters but it is almost aways better to focus on a caster progression rather than go half caster ans half non caster.
Also, it is outright foolish to multiclass two casters. You will end up with much weaker spells, both in terms of spell level and caster level.
Varies by mix. A fighter dip goes great at level 1 , a wizard rogue on the other hand is pretty bad dipping at 1 and 1.
If you're getting 3 levels of rogue and then going sorcerer, the Arcane Trickster prestige class is probably of interest to you.
If you're getting 3 levels of rogue and then going sorcerer, the Arcane Trickster prestige class is probably of interest to you.
If your optimizing, its literally the only reason to dip into rogue from sorcerer. Full casters don't multiclass at all if they can help it with a few rare exceptions. Certainly not more than a level if they can help it. Hard to find a sweet spot with that mix imo, rogues already have trouble hitting things and casting is best when its full. 3 levels is a long time to go without advancing casting.
Oh, no. I'm a rogue dipping into sorcerer. I'm intending for it to give more utility and help with sniping. I also just generally think the concept of a rogue tattoo sorcerer is really f&*&in cool. I was just uncertain about when to take the levels, is all.
Third level.
There actually is no single "correct" answer, but one should consider what one wants the PC to be and to be able to do. A second level Rogue is likely to have Evasion, which is one of the big, early benefits available. Second level also qualifies with the first Rogue Talent.
By taking Sorcerer at third level, the PC is adding a range of abilities he/she will be able to use from that point forward. If there are not going to be many levels of Sorcerer, then it is likely that the bloodline abilities are not going to scale up particularly well and thus are well served to be gained earlier. It also opens up all of the equipment an arcane caster (such as a Sorcerer) can use without having to worry over skill checks.
I would like to point out, however, that there are many ways to build an effective PC.
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I'll give a totally different opinion from anyone else. "Don't multi-class" would be my advice. You'll hurt your PC's efficiency in the long run. A straight rogue, a straight fighter or a straight wizard is the most optimized option you'll get in most cases.
I'm only speaking on my behalf and no one else and personal experiences may vary, however I've yet to see any multi-classed PC that isn't gimped by the experience.
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I only recommend multi-classing to people with a high level of system mastery. Along with a good understanding of what the characters are going to preform like in the game. I do like multi-classing as it gives me options not normally allowed to single classes. Thay are made with a very good understanding of why I'm doing it. Along with how it will work in game.
A few examples from my PFSP characters.
Bard : Not multi classed. There is nothing worth giving up levels for performance bonus. That along with a trait and a spell he can cover traps as a rogue. Along with the normal utility of the bard it self.
Cleric/Monk : Cleric taking two levels of monk. In this case Monk(Sensei). This allows me at level 2 monk to use my wis bonus on to hit rolls with unarmed strikes. Along with being a wis base casters. I'm building a casting cleric. That will have a high AC, and offensive melee ability with stunning fist.
Wizard : Not multi classed. I hardly ever suggest multi classing full casters. The above cleric is the exception that proves the rule. Arcane and divine casters are far less powerful when multi classed.
Cavalier : Not multi classed. saves me a feet for boon companion. So any dip I would take will require a feet before the dip is done.
Paladin/Rogue/Fighter(Lore Warden) : Yep that's three classes. He is only level 5 right now so only Paladin/Rogue so far. He will be level 7 before taking the first level of fighter. There are ability's from the paladin, and rogue I want for making a good light mobility fighter. To make it work I need them before getting in to high level play.
It's all about system mastery and understanding what to mix. To make the character better at each level and not make them stagnant at any level. If your multi classing and you have a level you do not increases your over all ability to preform in, and out of combat you should not do it.
I'll give a totally different opinion from anyone else. "Don't multi-class" would be my advice. You'll hurt your PC's efficiency in the long run. A straight rogue, a straight fighter or a straight wizard is the most optimized option you'll get in most cases.
I'm only speaking on my behalf and no one else and personal experiences may vary, however I've yet to see any multi-classed PC that isn't gimped by the experience.
I want to note that I don't know Eric and I do not know what his experiences with multi-classing are.
My experience is that multi-classing can improve the versatility of a PC (which, depending on what the player wants to experience or accomplish at the table, may be a good or bad thing; there most definitely is a school of "I do one thing, I do it well, and then I move on to do it again").
For me:
a) My Ranger/Rogue/Horizon Walker would be slightly less good at finding traps (+46 in favored terrain) if she were straight Rogue. She would have less HP and a lower BAB, but she would have more skills and more Sneak Attack dice. As she does not have much in the way of precision damage, it is not something she has to rely upon to be effective. The build gave me much happiness from 5th level on.
b) My Cleric/Paladin/Ranger/Holy Vindicator is a complete and total mess. He is a prime example of how not to multi-class (he casts worse than a straight Cleric, fights worse than a straight Paladin, and has a few Pretige abilities that don't really provide much benefit). Sadly, the concept of the character is wholly covered in the Hosipitaller (sp?) archtype of the Paladin.
c) My Arcane Monk (mostly Wizard) did many scenarios with the local VC's Wizard, Menke. Menke was a much better Wizard than my Arcane Monk. But, as the current VC would constantly point out, the Arcane Monk could do a lot of things (from Scout to Tank to Blaster to tool box caster) well enough to always be helpful in a party.
d) My Bard/Magus (not a build I would recommend to anyone, at least not how I did it) is always useful. In scenarios where she cannot use her melee or offensive spellcasting, she still has limiting Bardic abilities (and picked up two great feats and better saves for the two levels of Bard).
e) The Summoner/Dragon Disciple...much better combat skills than if she had stayed straight Summoner. Sure, the eidolon is MUCH weaker, a trade-off I was more than willing to make than to completely abandon all of the character concept after the forced rebuild killed her old archetype.
f) I have a Wizard (Evoker)/Alchemist who is still low level, but his toolbox abilities have made him much more versatile than he would have been as going straight in either class.
I do have a straight Fighter (who uses a bow), straight Cleric (channeler), and straight Oracle (Metal). I feel confident that all of those characters are best suited to stick with what they do.
But I am of the opinion that there are plenty of fine experiences to be had multi-classing or not.
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One of the best characters I ever played was a halfling multiclass rogue/cleric of Olidammara in 3rd edition who plodded along alternating one level after another. On paper, it was about as suboptimal as you could get. In practice, it was awesome.I'll give a totally different opinion from anyone else. "Don't multi-class" would be my advice. You'll hurt your PC's efficiency in the long run. A straight rogue, a straight fighter or a straight wizard is the most optimized option you'll get in most cases.
I'm only speaking on my behalf and no one else and personal experiences may vary, however I've yet to see any multi-classed PC that isn't gimped by the experience.
I only recommend multi-classing to people with a high level of system mastery.
Agreed.
"I do one thing, I do it well, and then I move on to do it again").
On the other hand, multi-classing in pathfinder usually ends up as spreading yourself too then. Versatile sure, but why suck at a whole bunch of things anyway? If you ask about optimization on the boards your going to be told how to optimize best.
As a rogue, one could just use their UMD to emulate the vast bulk of what a few levels of sorcerer would net them anyways. So my advice is also of an opinion with others: don't multiclass.
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I'll make a slightly more specific suggestion: never multiclass carelessly. My fighter/wizard/eldritch knight is very effective, but I checked all the details thoroughly before I even built him at first level. Getting a ways along in the career of a PC who was designed as a monoclass and then deciding "I think I'll dabble in something else" is very risky business. Of course, it's possible that by accident you set yourself up for a very beneficial dip, but don't play the odds. If you can't spell out what it'll cost you and what you'll get from it, then it's very likely not going to be worth it.
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d) My Bard/Magus (not a build I would recommend to anyone, at least not how I did it) is always useful. In scenarios where she cannot use her melee or offensive spellcasting, she still has limiting Bardic abilities (and picked up two great feats and better saves for the two levels of Bard).
I would highly recommend this build actually. A single level dip of Dervish Dancer Bard after two levels of Magus is great in PFS.
1st) You pick up Dervish Dance. If you are a Dex Magus, this is necessary and saves you two feat slots.
2nd) A big weakness for the Magus is the lack of skills to put all those lovely Int points to work for you. Bard gives you every knowledge as well as Perception! This opens up a trait for the character as Perception seems almost required for low Wis characters. Also, skills are king in PFS so the Bard skill list + 4 extra points for that dip is amazing.
3rd) You get CLW as a class spell, so you don't have to UMD your wand or find other people to use it for you.
1st) You pick up Dervish Dance. If you are a Dex Magus, this is necessary and saves you two feat slots.
2nd) A big weakness for the Magus is the lack of skills to put all those lovely Int points to work for you. Bard gives you every knowledge as well as Perception! This opens up a trait for the character as Perception seems almost required for low Wis characters. Also, skills are king in PFS so the Bard skill list + 4 extra points for that dip is amazing.
3rd) You get CLW as a class spell, so you don't have to UMD your wand or find other people to use it for you.
1. Alternatively, take 3 levels of magus and take the feat anyway.
2. Int based caster, they get plenty.3. Infernal healing is much more viable for arcane casters.
You also lose spellcasting progression. Your ammo for touch spell strike and CL might not be a fan of the idea.
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1. Alternatively, take 3 levels of magus and take the feat anyway.
2. Int based caster, they get plenty.
3. Infernal healing is much more viable for arcane casters.You also lose spellcasting progression. Your ammo for touch spell strike and CL might not be a fan of the idea.
1. This allows you to take two other feats at 1st and 3rd level. So, in essence, you save two feats.
2. The Magus has very few skills in class, which was the whole point of my post. An extra +3 to skills is huge in PFS and Bard grants that.
3. Infernal healing is nice, however it directly conflicts with the feat Dervish Dance, flavor-wise. Being a devout follower of Serenrae would likely prohibit using demonic energy to heal wounds. Sure, you can still do it and not suffer any penalties, but a true RPer would probably not heal through that spell.
You lose one level of spellcasting progression, which is not huge since most of your damage comes from 1st level spells (Grasp/Frostbite). You lose one spell briefly for the dip, however you can still pick up several Pearls of Power to get you through (which you would normally buy anyway) and losing a CL costs you what 3.5 non-crit damage per Grasp that is until you cap it a level later than normal.
"I do one thing, I do it well, and then I move on to do it again").On the other hand, multi-classing in pathfinder usually ends up as spreading yourself too then. Versatile sure, but why suck at a whole bunch of things anyway? If you ask about optimization on the boards your going to be told how to optimize best.
Not if you design your character to take pieces from many classes and build them into a single working combo.
I talk about him a lot, but I'll throw my Kitsune Samurai in the ring. He's really only a samurai by title, however, as his current multiclass spread is Samurai (Sword Saint) 2 / Fighter (Lore Warden) 5 / Rogue (Thug) 1. Originally built to specialize in using Charisma-based skills in combat, his build evolved into a combo attacking debuffing monster of a character.
I don't have all of the feats I need yet (11th level is the level when I obtain all of the pieces to my combo), but it basically works like this:
Round 1, run into combat unarmed and punch bad guy in the face with Improved Unarmed Strike, dealing nonlethal damage and using the Enforcer feat to demoralize my opponent.
Round 2, draw my weapon and trip my opponent. If successful, provoke two attacks of opportunity (one from Greater Trip, one from Vicious Stomp). Resolve Vicious Stomp first, if attack is successful, opponent is flat-footed against second attack of opportunity thanks to Shatter Defenses and has a +2 morale bonus to hit thanks to Order of the Cockatrice. If first AoO is successful, opponent is flat-footed and suffers sneak attack damage on second AoO. Use the thug archetype to reduce this sneak attack damage by 1d6 in order to sicken foe for 2 rounds.
By the end of round two, my opponent is on the ground prone, sickened, and shaken. This is an effective –6 to AC and –4 on most saving throws, plus being prone gives me a +4 bonus on attack rolls to hit my opponent. Yes. I am aware that not every trick in this routine will affect every opponent. But that is how you build a successful martial character. You invest in many tricks and abilities that are usable in a wide variety of situations alone, but can combo together to destroy any foe unfortunate enough to be vulnerable to all of them.
So, when multiclassing the best thing to do is think to yourself, "What do I want my character to be very good at?" and start figuring out how to obtain abilities that make you good at the desired role while minimalizing the "useless" abilities that you get. I have no intention of ever using the Mount class feature, and it won't scale with my HD because I gave up Expert Trainer to be a Samurai, so I had no qualms trading the mount away for a niche ability that I might use on occasion (Iaijutsu Strike).
I'll make a slightly more specific suggestion: never multiclass carelessly. My fighter/wizard/eldritch knight is very effective, but I checked all the details thoroughly before I even built him at first level. Getting a ways along in the career of a PC who was designed as a monoclass and then deciding "I think I'll dabble in something else" is very risky business. Of course, it's possible that by accident you set yourself up for a very beneficial dip, but don't play the odds. If you can't spell out what it'll cost you and what you'll get from it, then it's very likely not going to be worth it.
Jiggy's got it here. Building an effective multiclass character is a science that is the fruit of system mastery. There are some no-brainer multiclass choices, such as one level in Fighter (dragoon) if you want to focus on mounted combat, but most of the time you need to carefully consider what you are loosing and what you are gaining.