| Annoctatio |
Alright, my question is simple and I believe the answer is as well. I may be just stupid.
So, it just happens that me and my friends have decided to just roll a "fun campaign", where we all generate ridiculously overpowered characters and venture into the Abyss' multiple layers.
It just happens so that one of us wants to make a level 25 Monk. There wouldn't be much trouble with that, except that I have no idea how the Flurry of Blows extra attack increase works. I have figured out the BAB increases myself, but I'd wish for someone to confirm that they are correct. Here it is:
Level 1: +0
Level 2: +1
Level 3: +2
Level 4: +3
Level 5: +3
Level 6: +4
Level 7: +5
Level 8: +6/+1
Level 9: +6/+1
Level 10: +7/+2
Level 11: +8/+3
Level 12: +9/+4
Level 13: +9/+4
Level 14: +10/+5
Level 15: +11/+6/+1
Level 16: +12/+7/+2
Level 17: +12/+7/+2
Level 18: +13/+8/+3
Level 19: +14/+9/+4
Level 20: +15/+10/+5
Level 21: +15/+10/+5
Level 22: +16/+11/+6/+1
Level 23: +17/+12/+7/+2
Level 24: +18/+13/+8/+3
Level 25: +18/+13/+8/+3
The BAB increases by one on each level for three levels, after which it remains the same as previous for one level. And so the cycle remains.
However, the Flurry of Blows confuses me completely. I have absolutely no idea how it's supposed to work. If someone who understands could explain AND provide me with the increased values to level 25, I would be much obliged.
For the sake of my savior, I shall post the Flurry of Blows table so far here:
Level 1: -1/-1
Level 2: +0/+0
Level 3: +1/+1
Level 4: +2/+2
Level 5: +3/+3
Level 6: +4/+4/-1
Level 7: +5/+5/+0
Level 8: +6/+6/+1/+1*
Level 9: +7/+7/+2/+2
Level 10: +8/+8/+3/+3
Level 11: +9/+9/+4/+4/-1
Level 12: +10/+10/+5/+5/+0
Level 13: +11/+11/+6/+6/+1
Level 14: +12/+12/+7/+7/+2
Level 15: +13/+13/+8/+8/+3/+3*
Level 16: +14/+14/+9/+9/+4/+4/-1
Level 17: +15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5/+0
Level 18: +16/+16/+11/+11/+6/+6/+1
Level 19: +17/+17/+12/+12/+7/+7/+2
Level 20: +18/+18/+13/+13/+8/+8/+3
Now, what I could gather from that table, is that every +6 you gain one attack (like normal BAB) but where the hell does the extra attacks (denoted by *'s) come from?
So Level 21 would be: +19/+19/+14/+14/+9/+9/+4/-1?
Would Level 22 be: +20/+20/+15/+15/+10/+10/+5/+5/+0?
I have no clue. Enlighten me please.
| Claxon |
Well, there aren't really any clear and defined rules for epic levels in Pathfinder.
I believe that while your BAB continued to grow and increase in 3.5 epic levels I don't believe you ever got more attacks per round than the 4 granted by BAB. Which would also mean you would never get more than the 7 attacks granted by Flurry of Blows at 20th level.
I could be wrong though.
| Claxon |
Beyond 20th Level
Although Classes doesn't describe what happens after 20th level, this isn't to say that there are no resources available to you should you wish to continue your campaign on to 21st level and beyond. Rules for epic-level play like this exist in numerous products that are compatible with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, although in many cases these alternative rules can provide unanticipated problems. For example, if your campaign world is populated by creatures and villains who, at the upper limit of power, can challenge a 20th-level character, where will epic-level PCs go for challenges? You might be looking at creating an entirely new campaign setting, one set on different planes, planets, or dimensions from the one where your players spent their first 20 levels, and that's a lot of work.Paizo Publishing may eventually publish rules to take your game into these epic realms, but if you can't wait and would rather not use existing open content rules for epic-level play, you can use the following brief guidelines to continue beyond 20th level. Note that these guidelines aren't robust enough to keep the game vibrant and interesting on their own for much longer past 20th level, but they should do in a pinch for a campaign that needs, say, 22 or 23 experience levels to wrap up. Likewise, you can use these rules to create super-powerful NPCs for 20th-level characters to face.
Experience Points: To gain a level beyond 20th, a character must double the experience points needed to achieve the previous level. Thus, assuming the medium XP progression, a 20th-level character needs 2,100,000 XP to become 21st level, since he needed 1,050,000 XP to reach 20th level from 19th. He'd then need 4,200,000 XP to reach 22nd level, 8,400,000 XP to reach 23rd, and so on.
Scaling Powers: Hit dice, base attack bonuses, and saving throws continue to increase at the same rate beyond 20th level, as appropriate for the class in question. Note that no character can have more than 4 attacks based on its base attack bonus. Note also that, before long, the difference between good saving throws and poor saving throws becomes awkwardly large—the further you get from 20th level, the more noticeable this difference grows, and for high-level characters, bolstering their poor saving throws should become increasingly important. Class abilities that have a set, increasing rate, such as a barbarian's damage reduction, a fighter's bonus feats and weapon training, a paladin's smite evil, or a rogue's sneak attack continue to progress at the appropriate rate.
Spells: A spellcaster's caster level continues to increase by one for each level beyond 20th level. Every odd-numbered level, a spellcaster gains access to a new level of spell one above his previous maximum level, gaining one spell slot in that new level. These spell slots can be used to prepare or cast spells adjusted by metamagic feats or any known spell of lower levels. Every even-numbered level, a spellcaster gains additional spell slots equal to the highest level spell he can currently cast. He can split these new slots any way he wants among the slots he currently has access to.
For example, a 21st-level wizard gains a single 10th-level spell slot, in which he can prepare any spell of level 1st through 9th, or in which he can prepare a metamagic spell that results in an effective spell level of 10 (such as extended summon monster IX, or quickened disintegrate). At 22nd level he gains 10 spell-levels' worth of new spell slots, and can gain 10 1st-level spells per day, two 5th-level spells per day, one 7th-level and one 3rd-level spell per day, or one more 10th-level spell per day. At 23rd level, he gains a single 11th-level spell slot, and so on.
Spellcasters who have a limited number of spells known (such as bards and sorcerers) can opt out of the benefits they gain (either a new level of spells or a number of spell slots) for that level and in exchange learn two more spells of any level they can currently cast.
You might want to further adjust the rate of spell level gain for classes (like paladins and rangers) who gain spells more slowly than more dedicated spellcaster classes.
Multiclassing/Prestige Classes: The simplest way to progress beyond 20th level is to simply multiclass or take levels in a prestige class, in which case you gain all of the abilities of the new class level normally. This effectively treats 20th level as a hard limit for class level, but not as a hard limit for total character level.
| Ughbash |
Think of flurry as having full BAB and the off hand fighting abilities. Thus at level 20 you have when flurrying after teh -2 for dual wield.
18/18/13/13/8/8/3
At level 25 when flurrying you would have:
23/23/18/18/13/13/8
Pathfinder follows the same progression for BAB post 20. 3.5 followed poor progression past 20 for all classes.
| KainPen |
for to explain flurry of blows chart in general it is your bab = class level -2. The extra attacks come in at the minimum level to take one of the improved two weapon fighting feats. Thus adding in the extra strange attack. those feats require BAB of a 6 so that that is 8 for a monk and at 11 which is level 15 for a monk.
| BigDTBone |
There is no simple answer because Pathfinder has NO rules for post 20th level play. Any other answers given are from 3.5 assumptions which are by neccessity, home rules.
Why do so many people say this blatantly WRONG statement?
Beyond 20th LevelAlthough Classes doesn't describe what happens after 20th level, this isn't to say that there are no resources available to you should you wish to continue your campaign on to 21st level and beyond. Rules for epic-level play like this exist in numerous products that are compatible with the Pathfinder Roleplaying Game, although in many cases these alternative rules can provide unanticipated problems. For example, if your campaign world is populated by creatures and villains who, at the upper limit of power, can challenge a 20th-level character, where will epic-level PCs go for challenges? You might be looking at creating an entirely new campaign setting, one set on different planes, planets, or dimensions from the one where your players spent their first 20 levels, and that's a lot of work.
Paizo Publishing may eventually publish rules to take your game into these epic realms, but if you can't wait and would rather not use existing open content rules for epic-level play, you can use the following brief guidelines to continue beyond 20th level. Note that these guidelines aren't robust enough to keep the game vibrant and interesting on their own for much longer past 20th level, but they should do in a pinch for a campaign that needs, say, 22 or 23 experience levels to wrap up. Likewise, you can use these rules to create super-powerful NPCs for 20th-level characters to face.
Experience Points: To gain a level beyond 20th, a character must double the experience points needed to achieve the previous level. Thus, assuming the medium XP progression, a 20th-level character needs 2,100,000 XP to become 21st level, since he needed 1,050,000 XP to reach 20th level from 19th. He'd then need 4,200,000 XP to reach 22nd level, 8,400,000 XP to reach 23rd, and so on.
Scaling Powers: Hit dice, base attack bonuses, and saving throws continue to increase at the same rate beyond 20th level, as appropriate for the class in question. Note that no character can have more than 4 attacks based on its base attack bonus. Note also that, before long, the difference between good saving throws and poor saving throws becomes awkwardly large—the further you get from 20th level, the more noticeable this difference grows, and for high-level characters, bolstering their poor saving throws should become increasingly important. Class abilities that have a set, increasing rate, such as a barbarian's damage reduction, a fighter's bonus feats and weapon training, a paladin's smite evil, or a rogue's sneak attack continue to progress at the appropriate rate.
Spells: A spellcaster's caster level continues to increase by one for each level beyond 20th level. Every odd-numbered level, a spellcaster gains access to a new level of spell one above his previous maximum level, gaining one spell slot in that new level. These spell slots can be used to prepare or cast spells adjusted by metamagic feats or any known spell of lower levels. Every even-numbered level, a spellcaster gains additional spell slots equal to the highest level spell he can currently cast. He can split these new slots any way he wants among the slots he currently has access to.
For example, a 21st-level wizard gains a single 10th-level spell slot, in which he can prepare any spell of level 1st through 9th, or in which he can prepare a metamagic spell that results in an effective spell level of 10 (such as extended summon monster IX, or quickened disintegrate). At 22nd level he gains 10 spell-levels' worth of new spell slots, and can gain 10 1st-level spells per day, two 5th-level spells per day, one 7th-level and one 3rd-level spell per day, or one more 10th-level spell per day. At 23rd level, he gains a single 11th-level spell slot, and so on.
Spellcasters who have a limited number of spells known (such as bards and sorcerers) can opt out of the benefits they gain (either a new level of spells or a number of spell slots) for that level and in exchange learn two more spells of any level they can currently cast.
You might want to further adjust the rate of spell level gain for classes (like paladins and rangers) who gain spells more slowly than more dedicated spellcaster classes.
Multiclassing/Prestige Classes: The simplest way to progress beyond 20th level is to simply multiclass or take levels in a prestige class, in which case you gain all of the abilities of the new class level normally. This effectively treats 20th level as a hard limit for class level, but not as a hard limit for total character level.
| Claxon |
LazarX wrote:There is no simple answer because Pathfinder has NO rules for post 20th level play. Any other answers given are from 3.5 assumptions which are by neccessity, home rules.Why do so many people say this blatantly WRONG statement?
Because the rules you quoted aren't particularly complete, robust, or good. Nor are they in an very obvious location.
| BigDTBone |
These are all true, but to make a comment that NO rules exist after other have mentioned rules specific to pathfinder and how they differ from 3.5 (ie, BAB progression) is a jerk move. In fact, asserting the negative without havering a comprehensive knowledge is kind of a jerk move in general. The OP asked for some help with rules (which they got, yay, go paizo forums), to offer nothing beyond "there is no help for you" is messed up, especially when there is.
| Daniel Turner Zen Archer |
In 3.5 I played an epic monk who had a full 20 base levels in monk alongside 5 levels in the Epic Monk class (I was new to epic levels, so I didn't try to multiclass or anything else to gain a prestige class), and as I recall there was a superior two-weapon fighting feat in the 3.5 game that I played. My gm simply house-ruled (Again, this wouldn't occur RAW, so no hate please) that my monks FoB simply gained the Superior TWF feat when using my FoB abilities. Dunno if that helps you much Anno, but there's my suggestion anyway.
| Ughbash |
Perfect two weapon fighting from Epic handbook required a dex of 25. Epic is however not open source so Paizo can not legally copy it. A DM could if he choose (as a house rule) allow a monks flurry to increase giving it one more attack. This would really be house rule teritory though and I would not recommend it.
| David knott 242 |
Perfect two weapon fighting from Epic handbook required a dex of 25. Epic is however not open source so Paizo can not legally copy it. A DM could if he choose (as a house rule) allow a monks flurry to increase giving it one more attack. This would really be house rule teritory though and I would not recommend it.
Actually, Perfect Two Weapon Fighting is open content -- most of the contents of the Epic Level Handbook were added to the d20 SRD and then updated for version 3.5. The only reason Paizo has not touched anything in the Epic Level Handbook is that they are not ready to venture into level 21+ play yet -- but if and when they do, they can use as much of the Epic Level Handbook as they want to, minus a handful of product identity exceptions.
Kazumetsa Raijin
|
Alright, my question is simple and I believe the answer is as well. I may be just stupid.
So, it just happens that me and my friends have decided to just roll a "fun campaign", where we all generate ridiculously overpowered characters and venture into the Abyss' multiple layers.
It just happens so that one of us wants to make a level 25 Monk. There wouldn't be much trouble with that, except that I have no idea how the Flurry of Blows extra attack increase works. I have figured out the BAB increases myself, but I'd wish for someone to confirm that they are correct.
The BAB increases by one on each level for three levels, after which it remains the same as previous for one level. And so the cycle remains.
However, the Flurry of Blows confuses me completely. I have absolutely no idea how it's supposed to work. If someone who understands could explain AND provide me with the increased values to level 25, I would be much obliged.
Your FoB BAB is all it's own. Remember that. It is entirely separate from your regular BAB.
It is +1 per level basically, you just start at -1/-1.
So at level 25, it would be 23/23/18/18/13/13/8/(8?)
Just factor in any additional attacks from your BAB level OF FLURRY(not regular) in regards to it acquiring another +5 over the course of 20 to 25. I can't recall if you gain an additional attack with a full attack for ever +4 BAB or +6. You've already acheived the extra 3 attacks from your Flurries TWF at levels 1, 8, and 15.
Why would you want to go 25 (Whatever Arch)Monk though? You wouldn't receive any abilities I could imagine for those extra 5 levels aside from Feats. Why not take 5 in something else? I'm curious as to what your DM has planned for those 5 levels of blank Monk. Do tell! I'm new to that kind of stuff :)
| David knott 242 |
Since additional iterative attacks are not gained past level 20, the formula for Flurry of Blows is straightforward -- you just add +1 per level beyond 20th to each attack you had at 20th level, assuming that you are using the standard Pathfinder rules for play beyond 20th level. Other epic level rules could yield different results -- but such rules would provide their own tables.
| Annoctatio |
Why would you want to go 25 (Whatever Arch)Monk though? You wouldn't receive any abilities I could imagine for those extra 5 levels aside from Feats. Why not take 5 in something else? I'm curious as to what your DM has planned for those 5 levels of blank Monk. Do tell! I'm new to that kind of stuff :)
I am the GM, actually. What I was thinking for "extra ablities" to be received at 22th level was "Vital Perseverance" (a house ruled "feat" so to say) that granted the monk once per day the ability to declare one critical strike reduced to a normal strike on himself.
Since I was looking at several demons (once again, Balor) I immediately figured out that the 5% chance of instant kill from Vorpal was extremely high threat. Since they are venturing in the lowest depths of Abyss, they are likely to meet a Balor. Therefore the Monk (who is going to be tank as far as I know) should be able to even have a chance to survive the encounter.
For 25th level I haven't put much thought yet. I was thinking about an ability that granted the Ki Pool the ability to bypass DR/good, but as far as I can tell that would possibly be a bit too much since it'd completely negate any DR that the Abyssal creatures have. But, well, level 25 Monk can be described as "almost a demigod" so I don't know if it's too harsh or not.
If you have another ideas then feel free to post them. I'd love to get some opinions from people who most likely have a lot more experience and knowledge about the game than I do.