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I'm thinking of building a melee sorcerer. To bump AC I could spend the feats for LAP and AAT to wear Mithral Chain Shirt with no penalty or I could invest the gold in Bracers of Armor. Anyone have any thoughts on this?
If I am understanding your goal correctly (an AC sorc who buffs up and wades into melee with a weapon), I'd aim for something like this (which prioritizes AC over melee damage):
Halfling Sorcerer 12
Base Attributes: Str 6, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 18
With level ups: Str 6, Dex 18, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 20
With items: Str 6, Dex 22, Con 14, Int 10, Wis 10, Cha 24
Feats: Dervish Dance, Dodge, Extend Spell, Martial Weapon Proficiency (scimitar), Weapon Finesse, Weapon Focus (scimitar), a few others to taste
Key spells:
6th- beast shape IV
5th- overland flight
4th- emergency force sphere, greater invisibility, stoneskin
3rd- blink, haste, heroism, greater magic weapon
2nd- mirror image, resist energy, see invisibility
1st- mage armor, shield
Items: +1 ghost touch scimitar, amulet of natural armor +3, belt of incredible dexterity +4, headband of alluring charisma +4, cracked pale green prism ioun stone (attack rolls), dusty rose prism ioun stone,
jingasa of the fortunate soldier, ring of protection +3, rod of extend metamagic, rod of lesser extend metamagic, something like 6k change
If you are unbuffed because you are ambushed, simply toss up an immediate emergency sphere and then buff up much to the dismay of your foes. When properly buffed, you will be running: beast shape VI (into a tiny ratling), overland flight, stoneskin, heroism, greater magic weapon on your scimitar, mirror image, 3 or more resist energies, see invis, mage armor, and shield. On the first round of combat, you will cast either haste or greater invis to position, then start wailing. You can use blink for excellent defense since with see invis + ghost touch you will risk no chance of missing.
AC 42, touch 28, flat-footed 31
10 base
2 size
10 Dex (+8 size from BS6)
1 dodge
4 armor
4 shield
3 natural (base from BS6)
3 natural (enhancement)
3 deflection
1 insight
1 luck
With a melee routine of +25/+20 (1d2+13/18-20 x2) from...
Attack
6 BAB
2 size
10 Dex
3 weapon bonus
1 weapon focus
1 competence
2 morale
Damage
10 Dex
3 weapon bonus
That is actually pretty hilarious. "Oh yeah guys, I'm a sorc, no worries...". And then you roll into melee near untouchable and putting out melee damage that while not impressive in general is pretty solid for a straight class arcanist.
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In my experience, the most important change between low level play and mid to high tier play is that your tactics need to evolve. Earlier I saw some posts on this, specifically as it related to the value of charging, but beyond that high tier play requires that everyone know their role, and that the party as a whole have a clearer idea of what their strengths and weaknesses are and how that specific party is going to go about emphasizing their strengths while compensating for their deficiencies.
A great example of this was my table of Rivalry’s End. We identified early that we were a table without a true frontliner. Our closest thing to melee was my healing-focused paladin, with a paltry base 20 AC. However, we played smart. I recognized that by virtue of having an AC over 15 I was the tank. The party buffed my AC with spells (something that becomes mandatory for survival in true high level play, around levels 14-15 and all the way through 20). We fought at choke points where enemies could not surround and flank us (note to all tiers: win the battleground, win the battle), and we healed aggressively both during and after combat because we had a disgusting overabundance of healing available. Despite the very negative reviews that scenario has received in some quarters, we had no problem; we were challenged, but not inappropriately so, and I for one had a great time.
My example is rather simplified because I don’t want to wrangle with spoilers and because far more skillful players than I have covered Pathfinder- and d20-based tactical play more excellently than I could ever hope to. By trying to emulate their work I would likely convey some of my bad habits, and if you want to study in detail the Advice forum is a good place to start. The important point is that even if you have a PC who is not strictly as optimal as they could be you can still survive even the most brutal combats if you and your fellow party members remember your seven Ps and fight with a plan.
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What about casters?I was playing in a Season 4 tier 8-9 scenario, and our 7th-level wizard got full-attacked (four claws) as a monster came up out of the ground behind the party. Took her to 4 HP remaining, after which she cast vanish defensively and moved to a safer position. Next round she cast fly and took to the air, out of reach.
I'd say that seems like an effective defense for a caster type.
Flying and invisibility are my alternatives to AC for my sorcerer, so I try to have them running almost constantly. Decoy Ring is possibly the best purchase I have made on this character. Withdraw or go unconscious for three rounds of greater invis an unlimited number of times per day.
I have hit some table variation here. Some say withdraw any time, some say you can only withdraw during combat, and some say you can withdraw only if you can see an enemy next to you (though the rules clearly don't support the last interpretation.) So I keep Poly Pan on hand to make sure I can trigger this in case I run into the last GM, and just have my familiar immediately wake me.
With a flying familiar and its feats dedicated to item slots, you can boost its carry high enough for it to fly you.
With these two things in effect, I can basically stay flying and invisible.
I don't know about anyone else, but I expect to continue to get my sorceress' diplomacy up. I'm really considering skill focus, but I might take one of the 2 skills/2 bonus feats with it. That +6 at tenth level might do the trick. Anyone have any experience with skill levels for out of combat situations?
I never saw diplomacy worth a feat, it is pretty rare for all of the following to happen: Fail a diplomacy (it is easy for a sorcerer to get it high anyway), not be able to charm (most people you want to diplo are humanoids), not be able to bluff (mask of stony demeanor is a ridiculously low 500 gp for a +10 to your bluff checks when lying).
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Prior proper planning prevents [expletive] poor performance. ;)@Ryan - The bazillion consecutive failed saves on the part of the BBEG didn't hurt either. ;)
But more seriously, what are "the seven Ps" and/or where can I find them?
Now I won't be able to sleep until I figure out what expletive fits in that sentence and starts with a P...
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With a flying familiar and its feats dedicated to item slots, you can boost its carry high enough for it to fly you.Whoa there. How are you giving your familiar feats?
In Animal Archive, there are a number of feats that you can use to replace currently existing feats on your familiar. One of them is Extra Item Slot.
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PFS adaptation of 5ps
Properly Purchased consumables with Prestige Prevent tPk
How about
"Properly procured potions prevent premature party passing"
The 7 Ps of PFS?
Properly procured may mean with prestige, and potions are generalized, usable by all consumables.
I like it!!!'
That being said, and never having played anything higher than an 8-9 tier (but legally playing up in it), knowing everything your character can do is critical. A simple pair of ear plugs can save your hide, as can a length of rope. You are playing a Gunslinger? Remember that he can also use a sword very efffectively something that was reminded to me in a recent scenario, after I had to throw my gun away due to a suggestion.
Always have a backup plan. For Munny, this includes both a buckler gun and a long sword. If your only shot is going to be a hard one, then take anyway! The best stories do not come from cakewalks!
Never forget the value of aid another (at least for skill checks, but if it takes your 2HW fighter a 19 to hit the BBEG, and you need a 20, think about aiding, still, at least u til you can flank. What little used thing do you have on your character sheet?
Use every little thing you have... Leave nothing unused. Try Everything.
Maybe that Create Water orison will be what you need, or a well timed Resistence.
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In Animal Archive, there are a number of feats that you can use to replace currently existing feats on your familiar. One of them is Extra Item Slot.With a flying familiar and its feats dedicated to item slots, you can boost its carry high enough for it to fly you.Whoa there. How are you giving your familiar feats?
Remember a non improved familiar only has one feat though, since it only has 1 real hit die and a bunch of pseudo hit dice that only exist to save it from blasphemy and the like.
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@CWheezy No problem, I hope it can help people out with their AC issues. While you can get a barbarian to a decent AC, most of their rage powers and the rage class feature itself work counter productive to AC management, as well as lend themselves better to a giant two-handed weapon. That is why I placed them in tier 4.
I will admit that barbarian and witch are the classes I am least knowledgeable of, however.
@Nathan Hartshorn I never realized that, good to know.
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While you can get a barbarian to a decent AC, most of their rage powers and the rage class feature itself work counter productive to AC management, as well as lend themselves better to a giant two-handed weapon.
My goblin barbarian has pretty decent AC and doesn't carry anything in his hands...
Never thought about carrying around a shield. Hmm.
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Hah! Angry unarmed goblin barb?My goblin barbarian has pretty decent AC and doesn't carry anything in his hands...
Never thought about carrying around a shield. Hmm.
Angry? Hardly! He hasn't yet attacked someone who hasn't attacked him first!
I'll have to look at the rules a little more closely today. Not sure I take a penalty on grapple checks using the grab special ability if I don't have both my hands free. I also don't gain the grappled condition either. [stupid gray area rules]
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Rod of Reach + Breath of Life.Yeah expect table variation on that one. Some GMs say you will need to make a range touch attack. I wouldn't rule that but some have told me that.
Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
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Angry? Hardly! He hasn't yet attacked someone who hasn't attacked him first!
I'll have to look at the rules a little more closely today. Not sure I take a penalty on grapple checks using the grab special ability if I don't have both my hands free. I also don't gain the grappled condition either. [stupid gray area rules]
Hey now, just because you are angry doesn't mean you need to initiate combat! ;)
A goblin wrestler is a pretty hilarious concept though. I've never been a huge fan of role-playing them, but I do love what the management did with giving them out as boons. Some things deserve to rarely get handed out for funsies, and then stay rare.
So on a somewhat related note, which of your PFS characters is your favorite to rp, and which is your favorite to lay the smack down on baddies with, Kyle?
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Never thought about carrying around a shield. Hmm.
This actually gets me thinking about a different key aspect of high-level play, which is 'know the table'.
Look around, and know your role, and how it adjusts based on the other players.
My cleric os Asmodeus can act as a party buffer, or can focus on damage spells and fire domain to take the place of an evoker. With a different set of spells, I can even tank somewhat. Won't do a lot of damage up front, but I can take a beating.
On that rare day when Kyle's barbarian is the entire front line, the shield will be very helpful.
How can your character adjust? Decide now, and have plans B and C ready. As an example, my friend's archer has Power Attack. It's only useful when he's not able to shoot arrows, but that's when he most wants to end the fight quickly.
And as a fighter with a high strength, he's ok with a greatsword.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Also, another question:
for damaged-focused characters, what kind of damage output should they be looking at at higher tiers, such as DPR when able to full attack, DPR when not full attacking, etc etc. I think it would help for trying to plan out purchases and builds.
This is just off the top of my head, but a decent benchmark for a damage-focused martial build might be to look at a two-hand-weapon-wielding full-BAB PC with 18 STR to start and Power Attack, who buys a +2 STR belt at some point and puts two level bumps into STR.
So at 5th level, you have 21 STR and BAB +5, so you're hitting for DICE+13 damage.
At 8th, you have 22 STR and BAB +8, so you're hitting for DICE+18 damage.
That strikes me as a reasonable baseline for damage; if you can get around that point (either with similar damage per hit, or less but with more attacks per round), then you're comparable. Adjust up or down according to your preferences/goals.
But that's just me spitballing.
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On that rare day when Kyle's barbarian is the entire front line, the shield will be very helpful.
Rare is not the word I would use.
Never thought about a shield because it never fit the concept I had for the little guy.
Normally he's being carried in a small animal cage by his porter and when 'unleashed on the party' he's walking around w/o a weapon and wearing a royal outfit. I've always thought a shield would clash. I guess if I could bash with it, that'd be something, but I don't have martial weapon proficiency.
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Have you considered the shield cloak from Ultimate Equipment? My bard is totally getting one.
Master Garble has been asking for snakes on his shoulders (Pauldrons of the Serpent).
I'm inclined to buy him some. Besides being the latest fashion in the River Kingdoms...er, I mean Zog, he tends to provoke excessive opportunistic attacks. And I also hear they will make it harder for his prey to escape the clutches of his jaws.
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Barbarians are the king of surviving low AC.
However, that does not mean that you don't invest some serious cash in Damage Mitigation. My lvl 12 invulnerable rager Barbarian has a 12 AC when do all his crazy stuff. As such, I see no reason to bump his AC more as it is too much of a gap to make up. So he only has +1 mithril breastplate. This doesn't mean tho that he is defenseless. In addition to his class DR (6/- , 12/lethal) and 190 HP, he has moderate fortification (50% crit mitigation) and chugs potions of Blur (20% miss chance). Because of this he has only dropped into negative HP once in his career (-27 hp in EotT - 28 Con while raging).
I am fully on the side that HP and other damage mitigation are better than AC.
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Actually, only one rage power lowers your ac for a benefit, reckless abandon, and there are a few that raise it, such as rolling dodge, beast totem, guarded stance, etc.most of their rage powers and the rage class feature itself work counter productive to AC management, as well as lend themselves better to a giant two-handed weapon. That is why I placed them in tier 4.
Indeed. There are also a few archetypes that either help with AC, or allow Dex-based rages. When compared to the other often stronger synergies between class features and building AC on other classes, however, I just find that the barbarian falls behind in my opinion. Using a one-handed weapon and shield over a two-hander kills their damage compared to a fighter with greater specialization, activating many of their rage defenses (such as guard stance and rolling dodge) has to be done mid-combat (unlike 90% of bread and butter AC buffs) and costs their move action, ect.
I'm not saying it can't be done. A strong AC can be done on a barbarian. It just costs them considerably more resources than most others because that class just doesn't synergize with AC as well as most of the others.
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Rod of Reach + Breath of Life.Yeah expect table variation on that one. Some GMs say you will need to make a range touch attack. I wouldn't rule that but some have told me that.Touch Spells in Combat: Many spells have a range of touch. To use these spells, you cast the spell and then touch the subject. In the same round that you cast the spell, you may also touch (or attempt to touch) as a free action. You may take your move before casting the spell, after touching the target, or between casting the spell and touching the target. You can automatically touch one friend or use the spell on yourself, but to touch an opponent, you must succeed on an attack roll.
Except that when you use the rod of reach, the range changes from touch to close and the free touch rule no longer applies...
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Reach Spell makes you perform a ranged touch attack if the original spell required a melee touch attack. I think that's why redward bolded the line he did: a touch spell on an ally does not normally require a touch attack, therefore it doesn't qualify for the "if" condition of Reach Spell to require a ranged touch attack.
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Reach Spell makes you perform a ranged touch attack if the original spell required a melee touch attack. I think that's why redward bolded the line he did: a touch spell on an ally does not normally require a touch attack, therefore it doesn't qualify for the "if" condition of Reach Spell to require a ranged touch attack.
Yup, an ally who wants you to perform the spell on them isn't going to be dodging it.
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Reach Spell makes you perform a ranged touch attack if the original spell required a melee touch attack. I think that's why redward bolded the line he did: a touch spell on an ally does not normally require a touch attack, therefore it doesn't qualify for the "if" condition of Reach Spell to require a ranged touch attack.
Jiggy, I see this thread where you repeatedly bash Rogue Eidolon over the head with your interpretation of how it works.
I happen to think that's how it's supposed to work too, but I also think it's ambiguous enough that a GM could reasonably rule either way.
In summary:
it works if: Breath of Life never requires an attack roll because it is a targeted spell and making it close range still doesn't change this.
It doesn't work if: Breath of Life requires an attack roll and only doesn't require an attack roll due to the touch spells clause, meaning when it ceases being touch range it loses the autohit rule.
Once again I think it's the former but the growing # of things I'm wrong about due to FAQs/clarifications has grown to an alarming number and I think there's at least a bit of ambiguity here, enough that I would not begrudge a GM for selecting either side.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I just re-read every post I made in that thread you linked, and couldn't find the one where I did the head-bashing. So if you're going to publicly accuse me of bashing someone over the head, please point me to the post in question so I can see where I went wrong. Otherwise, please re-phrase your post. Thanks.
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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D) Telling a person that you think they are wrong and that you are right
Dang, if THAT'S the definition, then Rogue Eidolon and I were bashing each other's heads back and forth all over the place! Maybe we should narrow that down to require some form of belligerence, eh? ;)