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My GM has a program (which he built) that allows him to generate characters. So it's not too much of an issue for him to create higher level characters. And then he will fine tune the character to what he wants.
But not every dm is your DM. Thats an insanely specific scenario (hey, i built my own hero lab!) that doesn't undermine the point of my statement.
I will certainly give you spellcasters being more of a threat, but a well built fighter, PC or NPC, with the appropriate magic items as well, can be just as devastating as a lot of monsters.
But you have to treasurebath the party to do so.
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But not every dm is your DM. Thats an insanely specific scenario (hey, i built my own hero lab!) that doesn't undermine the point of my statement.My GM has a program (which he built) that allows him to generate characters. So it's not too much of an issue for him to create higher level characters. And then he will fine tune the character to what he wants.
I can generate NPC stat blocks in my head...been told that is not a common ability however... :P .
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The cheliax book (for emergency force sphere) and the Andoran book (for liberating command) are some of the best buys for casters indeed.
Liberating command was reprinted in Ultimate Combat. However, Suppress Charms and Compulsions is still worth the Andoran book (as remove fear but for charms/complusions).
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A power attacking Glabrezu will deal an average of 155 damage if it hits will all it's attacks. :-)
Glabrezu ignore concealment effects (Blur, Displacement) so the strategy of "ignore AC get concealment" doesn't really work in this case. Glabrezus are nasty.
Here's an example of why AC matters. A powerattacking Glabrezu only hits me 50% of the time, as opposed to Mr Barbarian who gets hit 95% of the time. On average I'll take 75 damage, he'll take 147 damage.
Besides, smart players don't have their PCs stand in front of powerattacking Glabrezu or any enemy with multiple limbs. And hopefully they have something like Shield Other as well.
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The tactics need to change, that's all.
Ex: beginning of combat, monsters surprised
Low-tier
I charge the monster, gaining a +2 to attack
Monster full attacks me
I full attack the monster
High-tier
I ready an attack
Monster charges me at +2 (taking readied attack)
I full attack the monster
Analysis
At low levels, a full attack is often just one attack, or multiple weak attacks. In that case, the +2 to hit from your own charge is surely worth it. A melee type like a power attacking barbarian could easily destroy an opponent with a successful charge, and even if that's not successful, the final score is player 2 attacks, monster 1.
At higher levels, a monster could have four attacks. This changes the balance: player 2 attacks, monster 4.
It also means that any area-effects that could be cast now have to work around the melee guy. He's out of range for many defensive spells, and going to get caught by a stinking cloud or whatever it targeting the monsters.
The high tier strategy could be as much as 4:1 in favor of the player, if you grant an iterative attack and haste, and could go higher. It also allows archers and casters to act more freely, and either not worry about shooting you, protect you, or interfere with the opponent.
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Ex: Monster charges you
Here's the deciding factor: Is the monster's full attack better than yours? If so, trading full attacks is a bad move.
Low-tier response
Monster charges me (+2)
I full attack monster
Monster full attacks me
rinse, repeat
Analysis
Most of these full attacks are a single attack, maybe gaining a second attack with flurry or TWF if you're that sort. Usually, there really isn't a difference between an attack and a full attack. Therefore, it makes sense to stay put, because moving provokes an attack of opportunity.
High-tier response
Monster charges me (+2)
I attack monster, and move away (provoking)
Monster charges me again
Analysis
The monster is getting two attacks to your one. That seems bad, I know. But it's only 2:1, and you might be able to tumble, spring attack, or grab some cover to disrupt the second charge.
If you stay, you're getting and giving a full attack. For many creatures, that could be four attacks, which means a 5:3 attack ratio. That's not much different than 2:1 overall, but it's more than twice as fast. That hurts you.
It's less time for your spellcasters and ranged attackers to help you, it's less time for your allies to move into position, and you're now taking damage faster than your healer can keep up.
In short, speed things up and trade full attacks when you are already winning, slow things down otherwise.
*generic advice does not pertain to EVERY circumstance
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Rudolph, I agree with you on the tactics needing to change, and you did an excellent explanation of the multi-attack tradeoff.
I guess where I'm confused is that from these descriptions, it sounds like the character build and/or approach has to change. For example, in the lower tiers, getting your AC up quickly is pretty darn important, so characters invest a lot of money in armor and such. At higher tiers, you need to have the hit points, but you can't really recoup the money you've "wasted" keeping your AC high enough to get to 7th level. So what do you do?
Like I said, I have a couple of mid-level characters that are clearly not going to survive the higher tiers. But they've gotten to level 8 without dying once (and they're not "hide in the back types"). I've been "evolving" the characters through their careers, but there's no way I can double their hits point by level 11.
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Rudolph, I agree with you on the tactics needing to change, and you did an excellent explanation of the multi-attack tradeoff.
I guess where I'm confused is that from these descriptions, it sounds like the character build and/or approach has to change. For example, in the lower tiers, getting your AC up quickly is pretty darn important, so characters invest a lot of money in armor and such. At higher tiers, you need to have the hit points, but you can't really recoup the money you've "wasted" keeping your AC high enough to get to 7th level. So what do you do?
Like I said, I have a couple of mid-level characters that are clearly not going to survive the higher tiers. But they've gotten to level 8 without dying once (and they're not "hide in the back types"). I've been "evolving" the characters through their careers, but there's no way I can double their hits point by level 11.
Actually, you can do a fair bit to help yourself out.
Toughness gives you a nice chunk of HP.
A +4 con belt gives you a fair few HPs and bumps your fort save.
A wand of false life gives you a decent number of hitpoints at a decent gold cost, and you'll only need the one wand for your career.
Mistmail is very affordable and gives you a flat %20 miss chance. That should be enough to help you out.
Toughness and a belt at level 10 gives you an extra 30 hitpoints. That *really* ups your survivability!
Plus, find a way to make sure your characters can do whatever it is they need to do really well. If the enemy can't act, they can't hurt you.
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Rudolph, I agree with you on the tactics needing to change, and you did an excellent explanation of the multi-attack tradeoff.
I guess where I'm confused is that from these descriptions, it sounds like the character build and/or approach has to change. For example, in the lower tiers, getting your AC up quickly is pretty darn important, so characters invest a lot of money in armor and such. At higher tiers, you need to have the hit points, but you can't really recoup the money you've "wasted" keeping your AC high enough to get to 7th level. So what do you do?
Like I said, I have a couple of mid-level characters that are clearly not going to survive the higher tiers. But they've gotten to level 8 without dying once (and they're not "hide in the back types"). I've been "evolving" the characters through their careers, but there's no way I can double their hits point by level 11.
Dorothy, it's time to diversify. For two reasons.
The first is cost. Magic armor +1 costs you 1000. That's a good deal. But what about the next plus? To upgrade again, it's 3000. Same amount of improvement, three times the cost. And it keeps getting worse.
The second reason is that even if you could afford it, there are more problems in the world than armor class will solve. A group of goblin alchemists will burn you down, and you can't get your touch AC high enough to stop it.
But, a potion of resist fire? That's perfect. Once each bomb does 10 less, you have the advantage, and can charge in with sword held high.
AC isn't useless at high levels. But it's not total immunity from harm either. Generally, primary attacks will connect, yours and theirs. And that's for the best, otherwise combats would last a LONG time.
As a rule of thumb, a poor AC is tier + 10, acceptable is tier +15, and good is tier +20. And it does two things: it means that claw claw bite wing poke n the eye won't ALL hit, and it helps criticals miss you.
So, once your AC is good enough, focus on all of the other protections you might need. Can you defend against fire, poison, fatigue, darkness, etc? Can you fly and turn invisible if need be?
These are defenses too, and the difference between +1 and +2 armor will cover a whole lot of that space. If you neglect them, you'll be the pathfinder whose magnificent armor sank to the bottom of the sea.
There are some good threads already on useful things to buy, so I'll leave it at that.
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I usually buy things from cheapest to most expensive,so the + 4000 for a stat item comes after a magic weapon and a set of alchemical items.
I'm also not afraid to spend PA.
Sure, sure, 12 PA for a raise dead. But it's only 2 for something that will keep you alive.
That's basically 10 free PA. You're a fool if you don't take the deal.
Potions of fly, invisibility, delay poison, lesser restoration, lesser restoration, blur, etc are all things you can basically get for free.
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My question is, where do people get the money to get all this stuff? After buying that one +primary stat item, necessary consumables, and maybe one or two other things, my characters seem spent. I have no idea how people afford magic weapons +magic armor + stat boosting headband + stat boosting belt+ tons of consumables. Do you just play up a lot?
My Paladin at level 11 has ~87,000 in gear, I don't think I've ever played up with him and a lot of his scenarios are season 0 GM credit which pay low... you'll be rolling in the GP when you start playing 7-8, 8-9, and then 10-11.
For those who are keeping track his AC is only 24, but greater mercy LoH makes up for a lot and he is immune to a lot of the above mentioned stuff, and has the saves for the things he isn't. He also recently started doing north of 100 damage per round, but is mainly there to be social and smite things that need smiting
This is my first 10-11 tier character, and I know he isn't perfect, but I know he'll make it to Seeker, and he's been a blast to roleplay :)
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Average gear at level 6 is 16k, level 7 is around 23.5k. Have you been tracking all of your gold?
That's what I was gonna say.... My Summoner is level 7 and has ~32,000 according to Herolab (a tons of this is 2PP lvl 1 wands, which are technically worthless, but try tell Herolab that), but still he has Way more than 10k in gear, heck his Eidolon is rocking a +2 nat armor amulet (8k)
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I can't check all my chronicles at the moment (the folder I put them in is on another computer, so it would take a bit to fish through all my e-mails to organize them) but I believe so, yes. If it counts at all, I did play one module and I don't recall playing up often if ever. I also spent a lot of money on scrolls; why, I don't know.
EDIT: Ok I think I figured it out. Judging by how many scrolls I have, I think I blew about 6750 gp on scrolls.
As a haunted oracle
whose curse makes using scrolls in battle nigh unfeasible.
I don't know why I did this.
Spend another 5000gp on a Mnemonic Vestment and you can cast one of those scrolls once per day as if it were a known spell, at full caster level, and without consuming it. Instant utility!
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Rudolph, I agree with you on the tactics needing to change, and you did an excellent explanation of the multi-attack tradeoff.
I guess where I'm confused is that from these descriptions, it sounds like the character build and/or approach has to change. For example, in the lower tiers, getting your AC up quickly is pretty darn important, so characters invest a lot of money in armor and such. At higher tiers, you need to have the hit points, but you can't really recoup the money you've "wasted" keeping your AC high enough to get to 7th level. So what do you do?
Like I said, I have a couple of mid-level characters that are clearly not going to survive the higher tiers. But they've gotten to level 8 without dying once (and they're not "hide in the back types"). I've been "evolving" the characters through their careers, but there's no way I can double their hits point by level 11.
Dorothy, it's time to diversify. For two reasons.
The first is cost. Magic armor +1 costs you 1000. That's a good deal. But what about the next plus? To upgrade again, it's 3000. Same amount of improvement, three times the cost. And it keeps getting worse.
Part of my problem, I think, is that I probably "over-diversified" as I moved up the levels. So I have a belt of physical perfection +2--now I can't get afford to dump that to get a +4 Con. (I can't get rid of my +2 Dex, either, or my feats disappear.)
I have several +1 AC items taking up a bunch of slots, and most of my magic items are in the 4-5K range instead of saving all the money for an insanely expensive single item.
But, a potion of resist fire? That's perfect. Once each bomb does 10 less, you have the advantage, and can charge in with sword held high.
As a rule of thumb, a poor AC is tier + 10, acceptable is tier +15, and good is tier +20. And it does two things: it means that claw claw bite wing poke n the eye won't ALL hit, and it helps criticals miss you.
This is very, very helpful information!
Looking back, I can see that I didn't have enough advance planning or focus for the characters. I took each step based on what was going to be most effective right now rather than taking a less effective middle step that would pay off later on.
On at least one character, I didn't start out planning to multi-class, and I should have gone with a long-term finesse/agile build instead of a strength build. And I blew two feats as pre-requisites for a feat I probably won't be able to get before the character retires. This character might not be recoverable, but it's a learning experience, and it's been fun.
Thanks for the advice!
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but there's no way I can double their hits point by level 11.And it keeps getting worse.Part of my problem, I think, is that I probably "over-diversified" as I moved up the levels. So I have a belt of physical perfection +2--now I can't get afford to dump that to get a +4 Con. (I can't get rid of my +2 Dex, either, or my feats disappear.)
I have several +1 AC items taking up a bunch of slots, and most of my magic items are in the 4-5K range instead of saving all the money for an insanely expensive single item.
This...But, a potion of resist fire? That's perfect. Once each bomb does 10 less, you have the advantage, and can charge in with sword held high.
As a rule of thumb, a poor AC is tier + 10, acceptable is tier +15, and good is tier +20. And it does two things: it means that claw claw bite wing poke n the eye won't ALL hit, and it helps criticals miss you.
First to the Rat - sell all the scrolls, even at half price it is better than inventory you won't use.
and Dorothy - save up your cash and start upgrading those generic magic items... Belt of physical perfection may have been a bad buy, but it is +6 to stats for only 16000, unfortunately upgrading it isn't in a Pathfinder's budget the difference would be 48,000 to go to +4, ouch... but the +1 AC items need to be upgraded, it is expensive, but so is dying. Do one at a time, and stop when your AC gets into a more comfortable area.
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Dorothy, if it's any consolation, I 've been there. My first Living Greyhawk character was a mess, even with the free rebuild we got when we moved from 3.0 to 3.5.
BUT, I learned a great deal, and those are mistakes I don't make any more.
Feel free to PM me if you've got a specific question, but a number of moderately priced items is fine.
I find it useful to shop ahead. It's especially helpful when you've only got an hour to eat lunch and get ready for the next mission. What are the next 5-10 items your character will buy?.
Decide NOW, and you'll have an easier time of it. Then put them in order, which do you need first?
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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So on the whole "AC at high levels" thing...
Using my melee cleric as an example, I'm at level 8.2 and now have AC 30 (32 after shield of faith if needed). Using Kyle's guideline of looking at an APL+2 monster, the Bestiary's monster creation chart says that the "high" attack for a CR10 monster is +18. So that means that against an attack-focused solo monster, it needs a 12 to hit me, or a 14 if I buff. For the deadliest of attackers, that doesn't seem so bad. Any fight involving two creatures (CR8 each) means they need 15 to hit (17 w/ SoF), and it just gets harder the more monsters there are or if they don't get the "high attack" numbers due to having other abilities.
That really doesn't seem like what I'd call "irrelevant". It does make me think it might be worthwhile to carry a potion of blur (sadly, can't get a potion of displacement) to add on top of my AC for those epic solo monsters, but it seems (and my experience thus far backs this up) that for anything shy of Worst Case Melee, I'm still really hard to hit. It doesn't look at all like AC is becoming irrelevant.
Am I missing something?
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So on the whole "AC at high levels" thing...
Using my melee cleric as an example, I'm at level 8.2 and now have AC 30 (32 after shield of faith if needed). Using Kyle's guideline of looking at an APL+2 monster, the Bestiary's monster creation chart says that the "high" attack for a CR10 monster is +18. So that means that against an attack-focused solo monster, it needs a 12 to hit me, or a 14 if I buff. For the deadliest of attackers, that doesn't seem so bad. Any fight involving two creatures (CR8 each) means they need 15 to hit (17 w/ SoF), and it just gets harder the more monsters there are or if they don't get the "high attack" numbers due to having other abilities.
That really doesn't seem like what I'd call "irrelevant". It does make me think it might be worthwhile to carry a potion of blur (sadly, can't get a potion of displacement) to add on top of my AC for those epic solo monsters, but it seems (and my experience thus far backs this up) that for anything shy of Worst Case Melee, I'm still really hard to hit. It doesn't look at all like AC is becoming irrelevant.
Am I missing something?
I wonder the same thing, Jiggy. A lot of folks seem to have the impression that achieving usable to near impenetrable AC is not possible past the low levels. I can't help but wonder if it is because they are unaware of the numerous items, spells, and feats that stack and how to acquire them, or if it is because that building out that AC is often a significant investment of resources they simply prefer not to spend.
This perception frustrates me slightly since building defensive characters is my one of my two best character-building strengths (the other being ridiculous arcane casters). Maybe writing up a modest guide of the best gimmies, grabs, and specific tips for individual classes might benefit some folks?
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I think it's something else, actually.
I think most players have most of their experience at low levels. And at those levels, the day you get full plate is a good day.
Your armor class is literally so high, compared to your opponents, that you are unhittable.
That goes away as characters advance, unless you focus a considerable amount of effort into armor class. So part of it is not knowing how to layer defenses, but a lot more is shock as players run into higher level opponents for the first time.
"A vrock can do what? Omigod, we're all going to die..."
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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"A vrock can do what? Omigod, we're all going to die..."
The vrock has 5 attacks, but they all need a 17+ to hit me, or a 19 if I have SoF up. Meanwhile, I only need an 8 to hit him.
Of course, with this exact same character, I could instead just cast dismissal, and I only need a 4 to get past his SR and he needs a 12 to save. :D
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"A vrock can do what? Omigod, we're all going to die..."
If the level 10 Pally beats it on Init... It's dead... ~150+ Damage to the last one Luthril faced... it was not pretty, but then again Smiting Demons is literally his job, and he had been pissed all module by the Chaotic Neutral enemies, so the Vrock had it coming...
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RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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"A vrock can do what? Omigod, we're all going to die..."If the level 10 Pally beats it on Init... It's dead... ~150+ Damage to the last one Luthril faced... it was not pretty, but then again Smiting Demons is literally his job, and he had been pissed all module by the Chaotic Neutral enemies, so the Vrock had it coming...
If the Paladin's 10th level, then there's probably 3 more vrocks, probably all within range to full-attack the obvious threat. ;)