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Occasionally you will see mentioned in a thread that ability X, spell Y or tactic Z which worked at spectacularly lower levels may be sub-optimal or even useless as you level up and enter higher tier play in PFS.
Experienced PFS vets, in your opinion, what are the evolutions in both game mechanics and meta-game strategy that low-level Pathfinders should be aware of as enter 7th level+ games?
Hastily Thought Example:
As the CR of encounters increase, incoming damage per round will begin to outstrip your healing per round (except for the most dedicated of healing builds) so you will need offensive or battlefield control options to help nullify foes. Also, foes who inflict conditions become more common, so condition removal (via dispel magic, remove curse, etc.) becomes more important as it gets sidelined PCs back into the fight.
While low levels allowed you to play a simple buff- or heal-bot, higher levels will require you to contribute on a dynamically changing battlefield.
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Armor Class necessarily become useless - but you can't just throw on just armor and be missed half the time. Starting level 6-8ish, armor becomes either something worthless - or you've invested a decent chunk of your cash into it.
Also - shields become more valuable as another place to enchant. (2 points difference AC might not be all that much, but 4-5 points can be huge.)
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Low level spell slots for prepared casters become utility now that bread and butter will be at level 3+ spell slots. While at low levels prepping mage armor was a bad plan, at higher levels the extra duration makes it worth it. Prep always-useful spells like comprehend languages, resist energy. Almost noone cares if you prepped color spray or grease in a 10-11 tier. (if you like grease to help your party members not get grappled, get it as a wand or scroll. Or prep liberating command instead if you qualify)
Knowledge skills become more important, as you face rarer monsters with odder abilities. Knowing a monster is immune to fire with a fire oracle in the party is key to saving time and resources. Knowledge checks are free, wasted fireballs are not.
AC starts to enter diminishing returns, for almost everyone but the most specific builds. # of Hit Points become king, making barbarians almost better tanks. If you are thinking of buying a magical belt for defensive purposes, always get con over dex.
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Agree with everyone else. Buffs (cast or consumable) become more important with level. Especially the 10 min/lvl spells that can last an entire scenario at high level.
Ex: My lvl 10 Bloatmage had these for waking rune:
See Invisibility, Tongues, Nondetection, Overland flight, Mage armor, Delay poison, Freedom of movement, Magic circle vs evil, Life bubble, Telepathic bond, Invisibility (ring), False life.
All lasted 90 min or more.
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Armor Class becomes less and less effective at higher levels, of course. So do cheap consumables since their stats are static.
I must respectfully disagree. If you are willing to place a noticeable investment of your attributes, feats, and gold towards AC, you can maintain and very defensible to outright untouchable number at mid to high levels.
Generally speaking, however, AC does not "splash" or be an extra well. It requires dedication to be effective.
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Not at all. Investing in AC will not diminish your chances of being hit by the first iterative. At higher levels that first attack is almost guaranteed to hit. It will diminish your chance of being hit by the iterative following it though. So at least some AC is needed for survival.
AC also becomes less important at higher levels because a lot of stuff is now using touch attacks to deliver nasty stuff.
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Armor Class becomes less and less effective at higher levels, of course. So do cheap consumables since their stats are static.I must respectfully disagree. If you are willing to place a noticeable investment of your attributes, feats, and gold towards AC, you can maintain and very defensible to outright untouchable number at mid to high levels.
Generally speaking, however, AC does not "splash" or be an extra well. It requires dedication to be effective.
Well if you are having to invest more heavily in armor class to maintain the same relative effectiveness, then by definition it is becoming less effective. That doesn't mean its useless or even not worth investing in at high levels, it just isn't as effective as it was at low levels for the same relative payout.
Not at all. Investing in AC will not diminish your chances of being hit by the first iterative. At higher levels that first attack is almost guaranteed to hit. It will diminish your chance of being hit by the iterative following it though. So at least some AC is needed for survival.
This is what I was going to say. It’s always worthwhile to increase your AC. As Lab Rat said, it won’t save you on the first attack, or probably even on the second one, but if you have a good AC it will keep you from getting hit on that 4th and 5th attacks, and possibly even 3rd.
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Not at all. Investing in AC will not diminish your chances of being hit by the first iterative. At higher levels that first attack is almost guaranteed to hit. It will diminish your chance of being hit by the iterative following it though. So at least some AC is needed for survival.
AC also becomes less important at higher levels because a lot of stuff is now using touch attacks to deliver nasty stuff.
That is not entirely accurate. My PFS monk sits at a 53 AC with just barkskin from himself and by taking a -1 to hit fighting defensively. Goes to 65 if push comes to shove. At 16th level, not a damn thing hits that.
Over half of his money is spent on defense items though. Focus enough, build right, and you can get there.
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Well if you are having to invest more heavily in armor class to maintain the same relative effectiveness, then by definition it is becoming less effective. That doesn't mean its useless or even not worth investing in at high levels, it just isn't as effective as it was at low levels for the same relative payout.Armor Class becomes less and less effective at higher levels, of course. So do cheap consumables since their stats are static.I must respectfully disagree. If you are willing to place a noticeable investment of your attributes, feats, and gold towards AC, you can maintain and very defensible to outright untouchable number at mid to high levels.
Generally speaking, however, AC does not "splash" or be an extra well. It requires dedication to be effective.
Touche sir, well defined.
Monks are also the extreme to that rule. If you are going to choose a class with an insane AC, it’s the Monk.
But for most classes, even ones with high ACs at higher levels, they are not going to avoid 'all' attacks.
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Monks are also the extreme to that rule. If you are going to choose a class with an insane AC, it’s the Monk.
But for most classes, even ones with high ACs at higher levels, they are not going to avoid 'all' attacks.
By 16th level, any extreme dex or full plate class can easily hit 50+ AC with a 13 Int, 1 feat, and about half of their 450k or so wealth in defense items.
Pushing up past 60 is very hard though.
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This. The best defense at higher levels is a miss-chance.Darn...and here I was expecting something like the Evolution of Dance.
Armor Class becomes less and less effective at higher levels, of course. So do cheap consumables since their stats are static.
To elaborate, Mirror Image, Blur and Displacement become far preferable to spells that add to AC.
Similarly, while you know you're going to get hit, you can still try to avoid getting crit. Items like Armor with Fortification or the Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier will help you avoid spike damage.
Action economy starts to become very important as well, for both sides of the screen. You want to maximize the chances for you to make a full attack while minimizing the enemies' chances to do the same. Consider whether delivering two attacks is worth weathering five from the dragon.
As a group, you will usually start with action economy on your side. Don't let that get taken from you. You're the only one who can see in the Darkness? Don't try to solo the encounter. Use an Oil of Daylight to bring your party back into the mix.
Positioning becomes more important as the spells you face level up. Avoid standing in lines (Lightning Bolt). Avoid standing in groups (Fireball, Confusion, Black Tentacles).
Spells can be devastating at high levels. Don't let an enemy caster stand off in the distance spamming spells while you focus on her melee meatshields. Ready attacks to force a concentration check. Get in her face. Take her down ASAP.
Consumable get expensive at high levels, but you should never hesitate to use them. Spending 1000gp to use your Elixir of Spirit Sight is still a lot cheaper than a Raise Dead and two Restorations.
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Action economy starts to become very important as well, for both sides of the screen. You want to maximize the chances for you to make a full attack while minimizing the enemies' chances to do the same. Consider whether delivering two attacks is worth weathering five from the dragon.
All great points, but in relation to this item in particular...
Initiative. Especially if you are a high level arcane caster, the fight can effectively be over before it even really starts.
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This is what I was going to say. It’s always worthwhile to increase your AC. As Lab Rat said, it won’t save you on the first attack, or probably even on the second one, but if you have a good AC it will keep you from getting hit on that 4th and 5th attacks, and possibly even 3rd.Not at all. Investing in AC will not diminish your chances of being hit by the first iterative. At higher levels that first attack is almost guaranteed to hit. It will diminish your chance of being hit by the iterative following it though. So at least some AC is needed for survival.
Most things at that level attacking your physical AC aren't characters with iterative attacks, they're monsters with all primary weapons and a static +hit. if you're getting whacked by the first claw you're also getting whacked by the other claw, bite, tentacle, rake, rend, tail, wings, other bite, gore, ....
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For melee OMFG!Burst DPS types, assume that the foe will survive your full attack...and you won't survive his.
At low levels, you can get away with charging in, hitting the monster once and then taking a "full attack" of one or two swings from a low CR monster...however this tactic is tantamount to suicide at higher levels.
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Monster CMD out scales player CMB. Players who rely upon combat maneuvers will find themselves struggling against anything that isn't a humanoid at higher levels.
I wholeheartedly disagree with this statement. Combat maneuver characters must invest in combat maneuvers like an AC centric character must invest in AC. I have played a lot of high level pfs with combat maneuver centric characters and never struggled. I have a lvl 14 tripper and 11th and 9th lvl grapple based character. Freedom of movement is the only hindrance the grapplers face and that is a rarity. I have a mid lvl dirty trick, overrun and sunder based characters as well, and only the overrun based character ever struggles but he also must beat CMDs by 5 to really shine and cant afford the more expensive boost items yet, but he will actually get more consistent at higher levels, not worse.
I would add that people who dont learn to use combat maneuvers and just stand toe to toe and "take it" every turn are more likely to struggle at high levels. The pouncing barbarian cant always bail you out.
Most things at that level attacking your physical AC aren't characters with iterative attacks, they're monsters with all primary weapons and a static +hit. if you're getting whacked by the first claw you're also getting whacked by the other claw, bite, tentacle, rake, rend, tail, wings, other bite, gore, ....This is what I was going to say. It’s always worthwhile to increase your AC. As Lab Rat said, it won’t save you on the first attack, or probably even on the second one, but if you have a good AC it will keep you from getting hit on that 4th and 5th attacks, and possibly even 3rd.Not at all. Investing in AC will not diminish your chances of being hit by the first iterative. At higher levels that first attack is almost guaranteed to hit. It will diminish your chance of being hit by the iterative following it though. So at least some AC is needed for survival.
Yes, I understand this thread is geared towards PFS, and I'm sure you were talking about PFS in running against enemies at higher levels usually don't use iterative attacks. I can't speak for 'high' levels in PFS as my highest level character is only 5.
However, besides PFS, how often you go against enemies with iterative attacks is relative on your campaign. I come from a home campaign where yes, our GM likes to use his share of monsters, but he also likes to use other enemy parties, as well. And those do have iterative attacks.
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Not only monks can have decent AC. Heck - I have a level 4 bard with an AC of 26. Yes - the bulk of his wealth has gone towards his defenses, but as a bard he doesn't need to hit hard to do his job. He's buffing, taking attention, and being a good flanker. Any damage he does is just gravy.
And high AC does actually sort of stack with mirror image. If they miss by more than a few points anyway - they don't even take out an image. This lets the images take most touch attacks while my AC deals with normal ones.
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However, besides PFS, how often you go against enemies with iterative attacks is relative on your campaign. I come from a home campaign where yes, our GM likes to use his share of monsters, but he also likes to use other enemy parties, as well. And those do have iterative attacks.
The monsters are far MORE common on home games I've been in, because the DM can use a monster right out of the book, but they'd have to make a 15th level character.
Humanoid fighters just aren't the threat to the party that a monster or humanoid caster is, that's why most of the big bads are a monsters or humanoid casters.
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Monster CMD out scales player CMB. Players who rely upon combat maneuvers will find themselves struggling against anything that isn't a humanoid at higher levels.
Druid animal companions rock at low-mid levels but have survivability issues in tier 7-11.
You really have to invest in them but they can be worth it. Pick a critter with a good con to start with, make sure they have toughness and for Desna's sake get them some barding. They're as if not more survivable than most non tanking melee.
If you hang out behind the front lines, invest in your own con and cast shield animal companion: your critter now has almost 200 hit points to burn through.
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I don't want this to turn into an AC thread, as a lot has been said about it already and there are other things that I'm sure you guys can illuminate, but I have to ask...
I have an Armor Master at level 2 right now... He is a fun character, I enjoy role-playing him and look forward to playing him more as my first generation of characters become Seekers soon. He is sitting at 26 AC right now and I've forecast him out with Herolab to be at 47 AC at level 12. Is this high enough? will he be "unhittable" at that level? He'll also have a +21 to trip, I know this may not be enough, but what would be enough?
The monsters are far MORE common on home games I've been in, because the DM can use a monster right out of the book, but they'd have to make a 15th level character.
My GM has a program (which he built) that allows him to generate characters. So it's not too much of an issue for him to create higher level characters. And then he will fine tune the character to what he wants.
Humanoid fighters just aren't the threat to the party that a monster or humanoid caster is, that's why most of the big bads are a monsters or humanoid casters.
I will certainly give you spellcasters being more of a threat, but a well built fighter, PC or NPC, with the appropriate magic items as well, can be just as devastating as a lot of monsters.
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The best defense at higher levels is a miss-chance.For reference (from someone who hasn't really played outside of PFS), when do "higher levels" start? That is, at what point does the quoted statement start to become true?
In PFS, miss chances out perform AC in 7-11 scenarios and 8-9 sub tiers (and of course Eyes of the Ten). Of course that's not always the case, but from playing, GMing and watching a lot of 5-9's and 7-11's (over half of what i've run), miss chances > AC.
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In PFS, miss chances out perform AC in 7-11 scenarios and 8-9 sub tiers (and of course Eyes of the Ten). Of course that's not always the case, but from playing, GMing and watching a lot of 5-9's and 7-11's (over half of what i've run), miss chances > AC.The best defense at higher levels is a miss-chance.For reference (from someone who hasn't really played outside of PFS), when do "higher levels" start? That is, at what point does the quoted statement start to become true?
It realy depends on where you have your AC. Flat miss chances are usually expensive in terms of gold or actions (low duration, etc). However, if your AC isn't particularly high to begin with, it's almost always a better move to throw one up than, say, a shield spell. If you already have high AC statically, then you can get a better miss chance overall from AC boosts.
For example, let's consider the decision between casting shield and displacement off a scroll or wand. If the enemy can currently hit you with a roll of a 13 on the dice, then the two are equivalent moves (though displacement is shorter and costs more money). If the enemy hits you on a lower number, displacement is better, and if the enemy hits you on a higher number, then shield is better. But how much is enough? Even in 12+ play, I found that when the 35 AC team alchemist used shield extract to get 39 AC, most things rarely hit him. Even my enlarged AC 35 archer was avoiding most of the attacks.
Now, when I ran 12+ at Race for the Runecarved Key, the table had a 26 AC wizard who didn't use miss chances, and that was very very bad for them (they had to retreat).
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Arcane/Divine support matters a lot in high level play. Sure, you can do without, but you have to play smart and have consumables to stand a chance.
I think AC still counts, at least for iterative attacks and for mooks. My level 10 fighter was missed several times in one scenario by only 1-3 each time. The investment of a few thousand was worth it.
Sure, Cloak of Displacement is preferable, but then you don't have a cloak of resistance. Yes, you could use Blur but my fighter can't.
I plan to take the Wings discovery for my Alchemist.
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At low levels, you can play just about anything and you'll do okay if you roll well. It really doesn't matter if you have d20+1 or d20+3, the d20 is the important part, and the difference of two is relatively minor, it will come into play 10% of the time.
At high levels, that's not true anymore. If you didn't build a strong character, it really shows. Weak saving throws can kill you, and so can a lack of equipment.
Some people see this as a sudden increase in danger, but it's actually pretty steady, and some characters keep up, and others fall steadily farther behind.
PS a scroll of cure blindness only works on other people. Watched someone at my table learn that one the hard way.
